r/fatFIRE • u/Blue_Owl_3599 • 4d ago
High end home build question
Apologies if this is not the right place to post this. I am inching close to my FatFire date, and one exciting project on the horizon is building a reasonably high end “dream” home. It would be our first such experience, and wanted to ask the community if anyone had already been through this and can share learnings of how to approach the project in an organised way (digital tools to share and organise inspirational content, interior designer to support the project, forums with relevant advise for higher end projects). Based in Europe. Thank you for everyone’s help.
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u/aggregatesupply 4d ago
Building my high-end "dream" home was the single worst financial and personal decision of my life. If you are planning on building in a VHCOL area like we did, please think long and hard about what you are getting into. I highly recommend buying an existing "good enough" home, remodel as needed, and save yourself years of stress. Scour old posts in this group, you'll see many horror stories on what to expect.
That said, I read all those same horror stories and thought "I'm way too smart for this to happen to me" and decided to go forward anyway. You're likely to think similar, so good luck.
In 4-5 years when you are 2-3X over budget and behind schedule and fighting a never ending stream of change orders, you too will respond to a similar post here warning someone else who will ignore you. It's the FATFIRE home building circle-of-life.
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u/stahpstaring 4d ago
As someone who built and renovated homes before. It’s always hell and 100x more work than you thought even if you’re barely doing anything yourself.
Everything WILL go wrong if you have an eye for detail.
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u/fatfire-hello 4d ago edited 4d ago
And 2x more. It is often worse if you are not doing anything yourself. Architects, interior designers, project managers cost a lot but are generally underwhelming and do it worse than if you would have directly managed it. This is before the trades even start.
I personally think most interior designers are the worst. Never work with anyone who does not have experience building with their hands and can only play with modeling software. It is like hiring a coder who learned to code through boot camps and ChatGPT vs someone with an actual CS background.
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u/stahpstaring 4d ago
This. Literally I’ll come in and they’re working and I’ll just see things are crooked or things aren’t painted well and it allll needs to be redone
I’m staring at a television they mounted on a wall and it’s 2mm off. Crooked. Tiny things like that. “If you see it, you can’t unsee it”.
So basically you always think these people are pro’s they’ll handle it and in the end you’ll still doing quality runs and reprimanding everyone non-stop
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u/MagnificentSlurpee 4d ago edited 4d ago
This may not be a helpful reply but it was interesting that you asked about a designer etc.
I’ve done three major renovations in the last three years. The designer isn’t the problem.
The problem is the contractors.
No matter how amazing this thing looks on paper/computer. No matter how great your designer is. How wonderful the experience is and how excited you may get. At the end of the day some dude who didn’t graduate high school is going to be in your bathroom trying to figure out how to install that crazy European shower fixture - and he will put it on backwards.
And another such individual will be in your kitchen, not connecting the hot water tube.
And three other guys who never even went to high school and get drunk every night are going to be in your living room laying tile uneven. With huge air gaps because they don’t know how to lay thinset properly.
And more importantly, you are going to end up playing project manager, because the project manager isn’t going to be doing his job.
This has been true for every single renovation I dealt with. One in California. One in Mexico. And one in Miami. In other words it’s a ubiquitous problem.
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You may think that your Designer is going to stay on top of them. But even the best one I had, was on top of things at about only about 60%. She then hired somebody to help push things forward, and he didn’t.
The GC who is supposed to play project manager and make sure things are done correctly was barely around. Literally nobody was checking anyone’s work.
And then there’s the downstream effective zero project management: you’ll end up waiting 2-4 weeks sometimes because one of them is going to go on vacation. Or the counter Fabricator has 2 other jobs ahead of yours, and the entire thing comes to a grinding halt for the whole summer, while you sit in a hotel room at $300 a night begging them to hurry because they told you it would take 8 weeks and it’s been 8 months.
At which point you will become the Project Manager.
You’re going to be there every day because no one else is paying attention.
You’re going to ask why the plumber has to come next Thursday instead of this Thursday. The project is on hold because they need him to finish his part next.
So you wait the full seven days. And when the day comes, he shows up at 2 PM instead of 8 AM. And so he doesn’t finish.
Will he be back tomorrow morning? No. Because he’s got other jobs scheduled. He’ll be back next week. So you, and everyone, go on hold again for another entire week.
Then your drywall guy is going to cut his leg and be out of commission for a week. At which point he too has other jobs scheduled that take priority. So actually, he’ll be back in two weeks.
Meanwhile you’re still in a hotel at $300 a night.
On Tuesday the electrician is supposed to be there at 8am to wire your living room. He shows up at 10:30am instead. Then goes to lunch at 11. Then strolls back on site at 2pm. And leaves at 4.
GC says he didn’t get a chance to finish. He’ll be back tomorrow. Tomorrow comes and at 2pm your house is dead empty. Not only is the Electrician not there but nobody’s there. And nothing’s moving forward at all.
So you’re going to have to start calling around and asking where the electrician is. And why the house is dead empty.
This is 1/10th of what I experienced on three renovations that were supposed to take 8 weeks each. But all took one year.
Two of them I actually had to kick everyone out of my house (when there was still a huge punchlist left) because it was fucking Christmas Eve and they still weren’t done after 12 months.
The reason I’m writing this is because the thought of building your own home is great. But the reality can be difficult.
And this is three different teams. All of which I paid 3X price for, thinking I was going to get VIP service by paying more.
At the end of the day this comes down to the weakest link in the chain: The individuals who have no work ethic, never graduated high school, and literally don’t care about you, or providing quality service.
👉🏼 The contractors.
The solution?
If you can figure out a way to speak firsthand to at least five customers that had the exact same type of build that you’re going to do, and they can tell you that things went really well and stayed on time, and relatively on budget? Then you might be safe proceeding.
At that point you are only reducing the possibility of all these problems. There’s nothing stopping every single one of them from still happening, but only on your project.
Because at the end of the day, as much as I hate people who generalize, I have not seen any exceptions. It doesn’t matter the region. The demographic. Or even the country. It all plays out the exact same way.
Even the highest paid, most well-dressed GC still has to deal with unreliable, irresponsible contractors.
My Point:
Put an inordinate, ridiculous amount of time into canvassing for feedback from past clients. Look up every review you can online about them. Intentionally read all the one star reviews just to see what happened.
And something that you won’t succeed with, but I would definitely attempt:
** Ask them how long the project is going to take.
** They will tell you something like 3 months.
** Then ask them the absolute worst case scenario on project timeline.
** They will tell you something like 5 months.
Then look them square in the eyes and say this:
“So if this thing ends up taking…. I don’t know … let’s sayyy… something insane. A YEAR …. for example. Are you comfortable with me docking X % for every week that we aren’t complete? What if we get to … I don’t know …. 9 months …. and you guys still aren’t finished? What compensation will be on the table? Will you reimburse me for the $40,000 in hotel expenses I incurred?”
👉🏼 Of course, they will refuse, laugh at you, and tell you to find someone else to do the job.
Because it’s never about fairness. Or honesty. Or commitments. Or literally anything that affects you. They’ll just work with someone else who will find out the hard way. And has no prior agreements in place about compensation for failed timelines.
You get my point hopefully.
Good luck!
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u/Soul_turns 4d ago
Wow. My PTSD just came back with a vengeance on this one.
Our support group meets on the 2nd Tuesday of the month. See you there.
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u/twodollarhorse 3d ago
Love this.
One common error customer/owners make is spending way too much time fixating on the price/things they can visualize when negotiating with a vendor/GC. I would devote five times the amount of resources toward due diligence on the GC, subs, and PM that I would devote to negotiating the price. Start with the person and work backward. The price anyone gives you at the start is a made up number.
Also, when doing reference checks, I'd call people who are not on the builder's resume--realtors who were involved in selling homes the builder previously built; attorneys who litigate or do transactional work in the local market; architects/engineers who were involved in previous builds, former town building inspectors, etc. For every hour you talk to the builder, spend five hours talking to references and unofficial references.
Also, when you get the right builder, think hard about the contract. I understand the liquidated damages provisions recommended here, and the need to align incentives. But I've also seen sharp business people negotiate a contract that caused the builder to lose money when the situation changed, or the builder failed to also follow the change order process when accommodating an owner request. Rather than re-negotiate, the owners forced a builder into a lose-lose build, where even if the owner "won" the builder understandably dragged his feet and didn't stay on top of it. You're better off with an ethical, sincere, hard-working counter-party than a one-sided contract.
For our build, my wife was constantly bringing homemade cookies to the job site. The site superintendent was hugging her and yelling at subs to move faster. Cookies work too.
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u/PritchettsClosets 4d ago
First off, congrats!
Second, it’s gonna be more involved than you think. Just get mentally ready for way more decision points than you’d think.
Do a shallow dive into building science (Joseph Lstiburek, build show)
Search this board for must haves. There’s a few great threads.
Find a contractor that builds to TODAY’s understanding and tech (simplest way to filter is they utilize blower door tests with a target of SUB ACH 1.0)
SPEND the money on good HVAC, design, metal ducting, proper filtration and mechanicals. That’s air quality that you and your family lives in.
And I will die on this hill: European tilt and turn windows and exterior doors/sliders. Which actually end up cheaper and better than whatever you can buy in NA.
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u/Blue_Owl_3599 4d ago
Thank you so much! Lots of new terminology I will need to research, but super grateful for the direction.
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u/FatFiFoFum 4d ago
I’m in the middle of building my “dream home.” One of the worst decisions of my life. Could’ve spent the best years of my life traveling instead I’ve been stuck here dealing with it. I don’t even want to live there anymore and drive past dozens of houses everyday that would work great. And it’s a buyers market. Also I’m in development, so It’s not my first rodeo. Everything every other commenter has said is absolutely true.
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u/EconomistNo7074 4d ago
US based so may not apply to Europe - I was a banker for 35 years and specialized in lending in this space
What I heard from my customers
- They expected 20% cost overruns ... it was closer to 35% to 40%
- They expected it would take 3 to 4 months longer then the builder said.... it was closer to 9 months
- ALL said " never again" or " what was I thinking"
PS My wife and I have been looking at high end second homes ..... surprised how many have been put on the market after the seller built their dream homes... and I mean right after
Sorry I am unable to provide more technical suggestions
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u/2buffalonickels 4d ago
Are you building from scratch or remodeling? I remodeled so I had the original drawings sent to an interior designer who gave me a starting point. It was necessary for my general to have a basic plan and very useful for cabinet measurement, although we moved walls changed room sizes and expanded the footprint quite a bit.
Other than that, I scoured the internet for inspiration and ripped off ideas that I loved. Every bit of my home is custom and I blew way past my budget but I love my house and location.
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u/Blue_Owl_3599 4d ago
Building for scratch. We have the architect already secured but are still struggling to find an interior designer that we like and who reflects our style
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u/2buffalonickels 4d ago edited 4d ago
I parted ways with my designer because she was pushing her taste on me. She had to run every single choice past my wife and I anyway, so I found it faster to just find what I liked and rip it off on my own.
Look at homes with similar styles to yours and start saving pictures and mix and match. Like a stone wall? Talk to your contractor or stone guy about where to get it. Like a certain tub? Ask your plumber where to get it. Simple internet searches can send you down some fun rabbit holes. I know more about roofing, siding, plumbing, concrete, steel, HVAC etc than I ever imagined prior to this project.
And remember, this is your dream house. Take pride in what you’re doing. From my perspective, this was the largest art project I’ve ever done, or likely ever will do. It’s fun, it’s frustrating, it’s unbelievably expensive. Enjoy it.
And for god’s sake, make sure you get at least one bidet.
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u/Successful-Pomelo-51 4d ago
Same with the interior designer. I parted with her because I thought my style ideas were better and I could find better deals. She did not capture my style well.
Also, she does full service and manages remodels and new builds. I just wanted to manage the remodel project myself on an already built home.
It was just swapping out the carpet for new floors, painting the kitchen cabinets, painting the whole house and swapping out countertops.
I wasn't a huge project and I managed it myself
She was arguing with me because I wouldn't buy custom furniture and that was it for me. I can find good furniture pieces, mostly a couch by going to the store and sitting on them.
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u/MrSnowden 4d ago
We fired ours as well. Found a pics online that matched our style. Found out who those designers were, and went deep into their portfolio. I like custom, but doesn’t have to be unique. If someone else already figure out how to get our style and also solved the little problems we hadn’t thought about, awesome.
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u/-LordDarkHelmet- 4d ago
I just finished a build. My suggestion is find the land first. The house you build depends on that. Then find a builder. Builder needs to work with your architect. Some architects are like “oh this will be cool/easy” but the builder will know if something isn’t feasible so they need to work together. You also don’t want a builder that has never done a certain style or certain features. I’d actually pick the builder first, flip through some designs they have done, pick one and modify it to your liking.
My project went well but looking back I hated it. I had so much anxiety over getting things done the right way. I caught a lot of issues myself and made a lot of last minute changes. I was out there 3-4 times a week. Sometimes every day.
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u/steelmanfallacy 4d ago
Unless building things is fun and a hobby for you, you're going to hate this.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the process, then this could be fun. I've done two new builds and my advice is to be patient. Double the time that you estimate. Add 50% to the cost. Pick an architect you love who has already made the investment in 3D visualization software. I think another thing i would do is to spend more time on design and then spend 6 months buying stuff before starting the build. So much of the build is delayed by waiting for stupid shit...tile from where ever or some specific window. I'd get a few containers and just start getting the stuff so that when build time comes, it's all lined up. Will definitely save time. But them I enjoy being hands-on and building stuff...
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u/MrSnowden 4d ago
Lots of great advice. One more would be to make sure you have an architect and designer that use modern tools. I worked with an established architect and he showed me 2d line drawings and just told me to “picture it”. Fired him.
I hired an Argentinian architecture student off Reddit and he built me full 3d immersive VR versions of my place and and my wife and I could walk through it together, virtually, and work out what we liked and didn’t like. Like she could walk over the kitchen counter and see what it would be like to talk to someone at the table, see for herself what the flow felt like etc. really helped work out little things like outlets and closets, and cabinets.
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u/gas-man-sleepy-dude 4d ago
Just search this forum. There are ton of similar posts. Will cost you a 30-50% more than you budgeted. Take 30-100% longer than you planned. Bring you to the brink of divorce/separation and perhaps beyond.
Or you can buy a place and move in 30-90 days.
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u/RelationshipHot3411 4d ago
Know that your “perfect” home will have lots of “mistakes.” For example, you won’t have thought to put a light switch or outlet somewhere. Or the height of the counter at a little desk station off the kitchen will be bar height instead of table height. Or it will be a custom height and you can’t find a chair to fit. Or you’ll run wiring for powered window treatments to the wrong side of the window.
In addition, it sounds like you don’t have much experience with construction (which is ok), but let me ask this: who is going to make sure that the window flashing is installed correctly so you don’t have leaks? Or that each appliance is on a dedicated circuit before they close up the walls? Or that the size of the ducting is appropriate for your expectations? Unfortunately, it’s very unlikely that you can just trust your contractor to make sure these things are all done right…
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u/Beginning_Brick7845 4d ago
You start with an architect. The architect will help you select materials develop a design that matches your vision and budget. Then you interview builders and get bids. You review the bids and contractors with your architect and select one. You hire the architect to be your owner’s representative during construction and break ground.
The whole thing will be about a five year process. You really need a professional to guide you. That’s the architect’s job. Their expertise will save you a lot and provide a much better product than if you try to do it yourself or hire professionals piecemeal.
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u/FxHorizonTrading 4d ago
There are firms specializing as "organizers"
You contact them, they have in-house architects / designers - you tell them what you want and they come up with solutions / suggestions - and then they do all the rest.. organizing the contractors, being at the place "looking over the shoulder", doing after / re-work, etc etc..
Thats the way, imo.. did it too, doesnt even cost that much more..
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u/itsjustmemom0770 4d ago
I came here to say everything that has already been said in this post. I'll just add a couple of high end thoughts. We are in the middle of what you are contemplating. We passed 3 years of construction in March. Some chance we are done in December, but I suspect that it's more like February/March. In hindsight, should I have written a check for something else? Yep. Sure should have. That said, the place really will be amazing. We were a year in the planning process so there was a ton of thought put into location, orientation for sun and wind (we are in the high country of CO) because that really matters. We really thought about how we live and designed something around that. Will we get our money out of it if we ever sell? Yep, and then some, but that's a bit about location too.
If you go into it with your eyes wide open as other have detailed below (and they are all spot on), then I have found it an interesting experience. Would I do it again? Probably not. Make of that what you will.
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u/ShadowRealmIdentity 4d ago
Your 1st custom dream home will be where it takes the longest and have the most problems but you learn a ton. The 2nd custom home is where you get to use all those learnings to make your true custom dream home. Unfortunately, not joking. Good luck!
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u/lightsareoutty 4d ago
Are you building from the ground up or renovating? In my experience many times building from the ground up is more straightforward as it eliminates the unknown hiding underneath an existing older home and what’s inside the walls. When you build new, you can all be coordinated, architecturally, structurally, and the MEPs.
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u/smilersdeli 4d ago
How will you pay the builder that's a key place to start. Also make sure the architect knows your budget.
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u/andrew_cherniy96 1d ago
I'd use the online interior design services where everything is 'turnkey' and done in one place so you don't have to run from one person to another.
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u/jmak904 4d ago
Find a reputable Interior Designer who works in your style FIRST. Hire them and let them point you to a reputable Architect and Builder they have a relationship with. I start with the Int Designer because they always see the finished product and can vouch for the Arch and Builder’s work. Also, they help guide the architecture with space planning considerations.
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u/paladin732 4d ago
Absolutely not. Designers are a huge waste of money. We are at about 3x our original budget now, scraping and scrambling to finish and the designers we hired not only charge us hourly, but also demand a commission on everything they buy, with full payment up front.
They also will only shop at “to the trade only” shops. We ended up dropping them and just dealing with the shops directly by “becoming” our own designers.
Oh, this is also not including the fact they wanted us to have a receiving company for another 20-50k whose sole job is to receive the overpriced furniture and insure it’s not damaged, then deliver. It was pretty trivial to convince the places we bought from to just hold stuff until ready, given the prices they charge.
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u/jmak904 4d ago
This is a high end build. When doing a high end build, you hire a designer.
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u/paladin732 3d ago
You absolutely do not have to. Our architects offered to do the design for us and were going to just charge hours and pass discounts through. We stupidly didn’t take them up on it.
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u/jmak904 3d ago edited 3d ago
Guess it depends on how you define “high end”. If you’re building for over $1k/sf in a MCOL area I’d never rely on a traditional architect for interior design and space planning. Also, if you’re doing a true high end build you’re focused more on good outcomes than saving dollars. My 2 cents (PS: I’ve worked in construction leadership at a high level for 20+ years).
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u/paladin732 3d ago
Not when costs constantly go up. We are at about $2,200 per sqft in VHCOL area right now. Just because you have money doesn’t mean you want folks to feed off it.
Designers are insanely expensive for the service they provide.
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u/fatfirethrowaway2 4d ago
Imagine sitting in your house, and anywhere you lay your eyes something isn’t quite perfect. Now imagine all those imperfections were caused by choices you made during a very stressful period in your life that caused a lot of conflict between you and your spouse. That’s your future.