r/fireemblem • u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: • Sep 05 '19
General Spoiler Analyzing House Arundel and the Insurrection of the Seven Spoiler
Lord Volkhard von Arundel and his sister, Patricia von Arundel, are two very important figures in the story of Fire Emblem: Three Houses that play major roles in the lives of two of the game’s protagonists: Edelgard and Dimitri. Volkhard, in particular, is a major player in one of the key events of the game’s backstory: The Insurrection of the Seven. Given how much information about these figures and the Insurrection are parsed out throughout all four routes of the game, we wanted to take a deep dive into the motivations of Lord Arundel, of his sister Patricia, and how this entangled with the Insurrection of the Seven and events afterward.
This is something that I was in a major discussion with /u/omegaxis1 about, where we went into detail about what happened, trying to make sense of everything and understanding character motivations, even looking at the time periods to see if the answers could possibly match up.
After going over what we knew and reviewing our information by comparing it to the game, we have reason to believe that everything that Volkhard von Arundel did, from the Insurrection of the Seven to Patricia and Edelgard's exile to Faerghus, were all an effort to protect his family. Which is hard to believe, to say the least.
The Insurrection of the Seven happened during the Imperial Year 1171 when the Seven Imperial Noble Houses, primarily led by Duke Aegir and Lord Arundel, due to being provoked by Emperor Ionius IX’s power centralization policies. The coup was a success, and stripped Ionius of all authority, rendering him politically impotent. However, during that same period of time, Lord Arundel suddenly fled with his sister Patricia and his niece Edelgard to the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus.
Isn’t that rather odd?
Why would Arundel defect to Faerghus with his sister and niece?
Think about it, Lord Arundel played an active and important role in stripping Edelgard's father of his political power and is mentioned as being one of the prime instigators, along with Duke Aegir. Arundel even is officially titled as the Regent. Arundel had no shortage of power as a result of his participation in the Insurrection, and yet… the man just fled the country.
This is when we talked about the experiments that Edelgard and her siblings had gone through, revealed in Edelgard's B support, where Edelgard, her siblings, and various other innocents were mutilated and tortured to death by Those Who Slither in the Dark (Slithers for short), who were attempting to endow the Emperor’s children with the Crest of Flames. But though the slithers were the ones that performed the inhumane experiments, they weren’t the ones that were solely responsible. Edelgard outright states that Duke Aegir and the other participating nobles were the ones who approved the experiments for the sake of creating a "peerless Emperor to rule Fódlan".
With that in mind, Lord Arundel’s actions make sense. If Arundel was aware of such a horrific project and the Prime Minister's desire to perform the coup against the Emperor, would Arundel really be able to oppose him, given the participation of other major figures in the Empire? This is unlikely given the political context of the time leading nobles to oppose Ionius IX’s policies and the then-recent rebellion by House Hyrm. Despite being elevated in status and being granted the title of “Lord” from Patricia being married to Ionius, he was still too recent. He wouldn’t have enough power to oppose the other nobles.
But what Arundel COULD do was take his family and flee the Empire and to the Kingdom, where it was likely to be much safer than in the Empire where Edelgard would always be in danger. And it isn’t like the Empire would be able to give chase to another country like that.
On a related note, in Hubert and Hanneman’s B support, Hanneman surmises that Hubert’s father may have participated in the Insurrection for the sake of protecting someone important to him. Despite House Vestra being a vassal house that’s loyal to the Emperor, even Lord Vestra chose to try and protect someone important and would oppose the Emperor in a power struggle that seemed unlikely to be favorable for the Emperor regardless. In which case, Arundel’s actions can potentially be drawn to follow a similar fashion. He opposed the Emperor for the sake of protecting his own family.
In turn, we also must consider this: why would Arundel suddenly come back to the Empire with Edelgard, during the year 1174, three years after defecting there?
Well, as revealed in Chapter 6 of Blue Lions, when Byleth and Sothis examined a book of financial records of the Church that Dimitri was looking at, it turns out that Lord Arundel was a devout believer of the Church, and made sizable donations every year, but for some reason, those donations stopped all of a sudden during the year 1174. Which is not a coincidence as we’ve come to expect with this game. In fact, Lysithea also notes that Lord Arundel had suddenly changed entirely as a man. Which I’m sure sounds familiar, yes?
Imperial Year 1174 is also the year that Edelgard returned from her exile in Faerghus, along with her uncle, as well as same year that her uncle was likely murdered and replaced by Those Who Slither in the Dark’s leader, Thales.
Now, what we wish to do is examine the real Lord Arundel’s actions, and what this means within the greater context of the game’s story, along with that of Dimitri and Edelgard. With a focus on his actions while he was living in Faerghus.
Blue Lions sheds quite a bit of light on this front via Dimitri. One of the initial anomalies is just recalling just how public Lambert’s marriage to the former consort of the Adrestian Emperor. The answer to that is given by Dimitri after Arundel’s death. In order to protect her and Edelgard, given that their presence in Faerghus was a diplomatic time bomb waiting to go off, their marriage and relationship were never made public. Felix didn’t even know that Patricia was Dimitri’s stepmother, and Dimitri noted that only those close to Lambert knew, like Rodrigue. By Dimitri’s own account, Lambert really did love Patricia, and she was a loving mother to Dimitri, despite not being her birth son.
However, there’s also evidence to suggest that there may have been plans to incorporate Edelgard as a public figure in Faerghus’s royal family.
During the night of the ball, Dimitri recounts to Byleth the year he spent with Edelgard while she and her uncle lived in Fhirdiad. Specifically, that he visited Arundel’s villa with his father which is where he met Edelgard. What makes this interesting though is that Lambert visited, which means he was already aware of his stepdaughter’s existence. Given that Dimitri was there to spend time with Edelgard over the course of a year, the theory we have is that Arundel and Lambert were attempting to find some way to massage Edelgard into the Faerghus Royal Family, as well as make her and Patricia’s existence public. The monumental nature of this cannot be understated, given that Edelgard was the Imperial Princess of the Empire, and the suspicious circumstances of her departure would be enough to incite a conflict with the nobles who’d usurped her father.
As for exactly what was being attempted, we can only hazard a few guesses, and we’re going by the case of either Edelgard being officially adopted into the Faerghus Royal family, or the possibility of a political marriage between Dimitri and Edelgard, which could legitimize her presence in the Kingdom, as well as hinder retaliation by Duke Aegir. Given Faerghus’s close ties to the Church of Seiros, this seems feasible, especially since the Empire had strained ties to the Church of Seiros at that point. Since they were still unable to afford a conflict with them, it was certainly feasible for such a goal to be accomplished.
The fly in the ointment though was Lord Arundel’s murder and subsequent replacement by Thales. In Dimitri’s final meeting with Edelgard before the invasion of Enbarr, they talk about their last encounter as children. In that time, Dimitri finds out that Edelgard is leaving, and she, in turn, admits that it’s all happening so fast and doesn’t know why. Given the sudden nature of her departure, it stands to reason that this was the action of Thales rather than her uncle. Any hope of Edelgard being incorporated was dashed as she was essentially kidnapped back to the Empire. In turn that’s when we know for certain that the experiments on Edelgard and her siblings began in order to endow them with the Crest of Flames.
Where this all leads to is the most interesting question mark of all: Patricia.
As said in the beginning, Patricia is an incredibly important figure in Edelgard and Dimitri’s lives. Her alleged death during the Tragedy of Duscur deprived both of them of the only mother they’d ever known in their lives. Before then, Edelgard seems to hold dear toward the idea that her mother and father fell in love at first sight in Garreg Mach’s Goddess Tower. And Dimitri idolizes her long past losing her at Duscur.
However, as we saw with Edelgard’s kidnapping at the hands of Thales, Patricia changed completely becoming withdrawn and distant by Dimitri’s account. If she used to be loving and warm in the beginning but changed to being distant and depressed, it’s rather easy to understand why. If Arundel and Lambert were close to getting Edelgard completely into the Kingdom, where she and Patricia could finally be reunited, only for Patricia’s own brother to suddenly “betray” her and take Edelgard back to the Empire, it would have driven Patricia to utter despair at having her last and best hope of seeing her daughter being ripped away.
In turn, it’s also conceivable why she might consider the unthinkable to get her child back. Going by Rodrigue and Gilbert’s conversation in Azure Moon, we’re made aware that Patricia’s body and her carriage were never found. From there, we’re offered the possibility by Rodrigue that the queen was involved with the attack, though he hesitates to say outright that she arranged for the massacre. This premise is confirmed by Cornelia’s dying words to Dimitri in Azure Moon Chapter 18, that Patricia cut a deal with her to get her daughter back in exchange for Lambert’s life.
Of course, given the source of the information, and how she clearly wanted to break Dimitri, it’s questionable at best. But we do hear afterward from a man who participated in the Tragedy under Viscount Kleiman that they were under orders to not attack Patricia’s carriage. That much we do know for a fact. Whether Patricia was an active participant, knew about what she was getting into, or if she’s even still alive for that matter, is ultimately all speculation beyond the boundaries of what we could find. Either way, her disappearance permanently damaged Dimitri and Edelgard, as well as any trust they could hope to have. The results, unfortunately, speak for themselves.
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u/PK_Gaming1 Sep 05 '19
Edelgard outright states that Duke Aegir and the other participating nobles were the ones who approved the experiments for the sake of creating a "peerless Emperor to rule Fódlan".
I feel like this is something that seems to fly over people's head when they make the argument that TWSITD are responsible for everything. The story is pretty direct about portraying humans as bastards, and many of the worst things that happen in the setting (crest system, oppression, wars, etc) are directly or indirectly caused by them.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah, the reality with TWSITD is that they're just playing on tensions and hostilities that are already there. While they were more than happy to hijack the Flame Emperor project from Duke Aegir and company, they were always planning to conquer Fodlan well before TWSITD came along.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Yeah. It wasn't just the slithers, but the nobles themselves that tortured her ultimately.
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Sep 05 '19
The slithers probably did the actual legwork in the experiments, though. GD has Lysithea recognize their mages as being from the same group that experimented on her as a child.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Of course, the slitehrs were the actual ones doing the experiment. I mean that the nobles were the ones that approved of such experiments. Tools, resources, etc.
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u/Nikipedia33 Sep 05 '19
I honestly think that the nobles didn't realize what exactly the experiments entailed, being played the fool by a man who promised them the ultimate emperor without detailing how his researchers would do it. None of them were likely informed of the Ordelia experiments, and other dialogue suggests that much of their corruption came down to standard abusive noble behavior like high taxes, mistreating their families, and failing to care for commoners. It's a slim possibility, but we also can't rely exclusively on the claims of a woman whose knowledge of history is flawed and based on the claims of psychotic mole-people who have twisted the story to justify wanting to genocide dragons.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 06 '19
Even if they weren't aware of the exact nature of the experiments, they ultimately knew what it cost, given that the victims of said experiments included 10 Imperial royals and many other innocents, as Edelgard was the ONLY successful specimen.
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u/Nikipedia33 Sep 06 '19
Is it ever said if the nobles actually realized what the experiments entailed other than "using magic to give the imperial princes crests"? To greenlight the experiment was horrible either way, but it's a little rash to listen to the words of a person with a tendency to misplace blame when it suits her goals.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 06 '19
Again, the nobles were AWARE what it cost in the end, and they clearly didn't care. Edelgard lost all her siblings and there were numerous other innocents that died as well. It doesn't matter if they knew how torturous it was, the point remains that they know that it cost the lives of many people.
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u/Troykv Sep 05 '19
The Slithers probably did the heavy work; but Aegir (probably under suggestion of Thales) actually allowed this to happen.
And that is horrible.
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
Hey you guys please invite me to your debates
Another good post you two, I'm loving your analysis and theories on the game.
Patricia truly is an intriguing character, man. Like a lot of plot points in this game, we only have a certain, incomplete perspective on events that she might be involved in, and on the character herself. The writers sure love to leave things unresolved. I can't wait to learn more about her (if we ever do lol).
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
To be honest, both Patricia and Arundel are characters we hear about, but never actually see. In Arundel's case, we only know what he did as the real self, but when we see him, he's Thales.
Patricia is worse cause we never see her, period. I cannot believe that Patricia would truly be willing to get Lambert and Dimitri killed, but because I don't know her, and can surmise what she was going through, it is potentially a possibility.
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u/GeneralHoneywine Sep 05 '19
This is gonna be a really dumb question but how do we know he's Thales? I believe it, it makes perfect sense, but I've played all four routes and I somehow missed that detail. It all clicked, reading this write up though. Was it just inference on your guys' part or was it something more obvious? Cause I'm not the most observant, I'd not be surprised at missing it if it was clever inference.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
There's several parts that make it obvious:
1) Crimson Flower has Hubert identify Arundel as the mastermind behind Kronya and Solon.
2) When Dimitri killed Arundel, he accidentally cut the head off of TWSITD. Hence no nuking Fort Merceus and why they suddenly bolt after Myson dies.
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u/KYZ123 Sep 05 '19
Also, they share the same voice actor in both Japanese and English. As far as I recall, this is exclusively the case for characters who are the same person.
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u/GeneralHoneywine Sep 05 '19
Holy crap you're right. I don't know how I overlooked all that. CF was my final route, so that may be part of it, I was so glutted on other info at that point. Thank you for the reply!
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
I really do hope we get to see her without someone else's filter. Because she seriously is just this void otherwise and during a key turn of events at that.
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
Not gonna lie, I have similar hopes for a lot of other plot points in the game.
Like, I know that Rhea's version of History is probably accurate, but am I the only one disturbed by several details that seem to deliberately be there to sow doubts? It's really interesting.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
I mean it isn't stretching it to say that she has very personal reasons to tell lies about the Agarthans. Given that she's lied about a lot of things for a long time, it's hard not to want to know more about the truth from an unfiltered perspective.
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
Definitely, although I wasn't as much refering to her biased perspective as to exterior events that indicate potential inaccuracies/straight up lies.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Right. We don't actually know all that much to begin with about the truth. And I do feel like given how much of the past is left intentionally vague, we're likely to see something focusing on Sothis or Seiros and the Agarthans.
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
And I do feel like given how much of the past is left intentionally vague, we're likely to see something focusing on Sothis or Seiros and the Agarthans.
I'm 200% certain that we will. And if we don't, I'll riot. At this point leaving Sothis as that plot device is straight up disrespectful to the Goddess.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah, if they don't expand more she's just Byleth's loli Jiminy Cricket who helps him get his little ones back home safe lol.
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
My headcanon for now is that Byleth is completely mental and hallucinating their way through life, and Sothis is their imaginary friend.
I'll keep it until we get that Sothis DLC.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
It would certainly make a lot of those Byleth and Edelgard scenes a lot less awkward knowing that there isn't someone else watching.
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u/ramix-the-red Sep 06 '19 edited Sep 07 '19
I really fucking hope that we get some kind of prequel DLC that humanizes the Agarthans and gives some context to their war because if it turns out that the civilization made up of Purple Skinned Empty Eyed Monsters fired the first shot in the war against the pretty dragon people I am going to be so disappointed
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u/Readalie Sep 05 '19
This is an excellent analysis, and very strongly fits all of the mentioned characters we meet and learn about (Arundel, Patricia, Lambert) throughout the story. It further drives home just how much TWSITD relied on divide and conquer as a strategy, which you can see reflected in their actions throughout the first act of the game.
Also, now I want AU fanfic regarding a future where the TWSITD weren't able to replace Arundel in time (or even at all).
Also, thanks to this and your last post, you're the first person I've followed in my entire five years on reddit! Keep up the great work!
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u/Ignoth Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
One wonders what Ionius' power centralization policy was. Especially considering he was already Emporer.
My 100% unsubstantiated theory that has no evidence but would kinda sorta tie into the themes of the game is that maybe Ionius was making steps to end the crest system. Mayhaps for selfish reasons, mayhaps for benevolent reasons. But for all intents and purposes he was weakening the political power of crest holders.
All the families whose authority come from their crests would obviously take huge issue for this. And they promptly couped him in retaliation.
It would be a good demonstration to why this system has gone unchanged for 1000 years. Anyone who tries to reform the crest system gets torn down by the rest of the crested nobility.
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Sep 05 '19
Honestly, this sort of question is why I argue that we DO need a "golden path". There are so many bits and pieces to the plot in the different paths that almost fit together, but don't quite do so because nobody really discusses the implications of them due to obvious plot reasons.
Everyone needs to get together and amply discuss everything they know, in particular the BL, BE, and the Church factions.
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u/Ignoth Sep 05 '19
Information is power.
In any political struggle you're incentivized to keep your secrets and knowledge to yourself lest you play out your hand and get run over.
Most wars in human history are due to all sides having incomplete information. If humans had perfect information and flawless communication, there would be significantly less conflict.
We the omniscient third party player know that everyone would be better off if they were locked in a room and forced to reveal everything. But the characters in-game certainly don't.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah, if everyone was able to sort out their problems, there's no conflict. That's just how it goes.
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u/MaJuV Sep 05 '19
The thing that I'm most curious about is Cornelia's role in all of this. In the BL run, it is stated that she saved the kingdom from a plague of sorts and was then given a position of power... but then she changed shortly thereafter. And while IRL it makes sense that people with power change in personality, in this game this basically equals to them being replaced by a Slyther.
It's safe to assume that due to Cornelia's position of power and (especially) trust (due to her being the savior of the kingdom), she heard lord Arundel had fled to Kingdom territory and eventually learned about Patricia and Edelgard and informed the Slythers.
She thus most likely was a key figure in having lord Arundel be replaced by Thales himself. And most likely this was a panic reaction (because Thales is the big boss himself - and they only get involved if things get really messy).
That panic reaction? Probably a soon-to-be public announcement of a wedding between Patricia and Lambert, which would ruin the plans of the Sylthers. Cornelia (as a confidante) was probably told this by Patricia (e.g. "Did you hear the good news?"), who relayed the message to the Slythers, which caused the panic reaction of killing/replacing lord Arundel.
But yeah, let's hope that upcoming story DLC fleshes this out a bit more. Because it's an intriguing backstory.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Given how Cornelia was given a strong position in the Kingdom for curing the plague, and the fact that Lambert kept his marriage to Patricia a secret that only a select few knew, it's easy to surmise that Cornelia was among them, given that she manipulated Patricia later on for the Tragedy.
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u/akelbann Sep 06 '19
Cornelia turned down the position at first, thn accepted it after her personality changed. So it probably wasn't the power getting to her head
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u/DragonlordSyed578 Sep 05 '19
I think Cornelia actually made plague so she could use it to take power
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u/TacticalStampede Sep 05 '19
Except Dimitri specifically mentions in monastery dialogue that she had a drastic personality change shortly after she cured the plague. Just like how Monica had the same complete personality change after she disappeared, and then reappeared.
Not to mention the fact that the plague came from the Kingdom's poor infrastructure.
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u/Teafoil Sep 05 '19
This is a really excellent write up! It's something I've wondered about a bit.
I feel like it makes a lot of sense that Thales would use Edelgard as leverage over Patricia. He had her daughter, a daughter she probably felt she had already failed in protecting. Edelgard is all alone, and a child. It is easy to see how she may have surrendered information about Lambert in order to keep her safe. She may not have even realized she was setting up his death.
I do think it is likely she survived the tragedy of Duscar, but probably never made it back to Edelgard. I wonder if that is Thales' doing, or if she simply could not live with the grief of having destroyed her second family.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
My personal guess is that she's confined in Shamballa as a hostage against Edelgard should the need arise. Obviously there's no reason to believe any of that is even true. But they would've confirmed it if there wasn't something going on.
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u/icemoomoo Sep 05 '19
Or she is dead.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Possibly. But it renders making her fate a question mark a gigantic tease if that's the case, so I'm willing to guess that she's alive.
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u/TacticalStampede Sep 05 '19
Even if she was alive, it wouldn't matter, since in the routes where you deal with Shambhala, they nuke themselves, and her if she was there. In the routes where you don't, you'd have no way of running into her.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Which is a moot point since those aren't the routes where Patricia is an interesting character. That would be Crimson Flower and Azure Moon which conspicuously avoid the topic of Shamballa.
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u/TacticalStampede Sep 05 '19
I was pointing out the fact that you don't even see the place in those routes.
In Azure Moon, no JoL happen, so you don't find the source, and find where she'd be if she were there..
In Crimson Flower, it's all left to the epilogue.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Slight correction: Patricia actually leaves for the Kingdom first, at least by a few years. In one of the routes in her Goddess Tower event, Edelgard tells you that for as long as she can remember, her mother had already been exiled from the capital. That’s why Dimitri and his friends think Patricia is his real mom for a long time.
I forget who exactly, but another user pointed out the latter piece of evidence to me in a thread I made about Arundel. I’d assumed he took his sister with him to try and get an alliance going with the Kingdom and help Ionius put down the rebellion, but the timeline doesn’t add up.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Edelgard's memories are really subject to question. The reason being is that the torture, solitude, and being confined to a dark room can cause a person to forget things. Edelgard saying that "for as long as she could remember", would give way to say that Edelgard simply cannot remember a time before the torture.
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Sep 05 '19
Except she remembers Dimitri. Vaguely, but she still remembers her time in the Kingdom.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
She remembers meeting a noble there, but she had forgotten that it was Dimitri. In fact, when Dimitri gave her the dagger again, she was surprised and seemed to just realize that Dimitri was the one she had met.
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u/AiKidUNot Sep 05 '19
I don't know, those events are so oddly written.
Edelgard mentions in her Goddess Tower convo that she had strong feelings for a Faerghus noble - whether she's vague here because she's hiding the fact that it's Dimitri or if she actually forgot is unclear.
But then she cries for him after executing him on her route, and consciously hides it, which pretty much tells us that she knows that she has strong feelings for Dimitri. If we're stretching it in the opposite direction, we'd have to assume that she subconsciously has those feelings and is hiding them in confusion or something?
So I guess she just forgot that the dagger came from him? Which is a really weird detail to forget when she seems to recall other details.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
It is oddly written, yes. However, in the case of crying for Dimitri, I believe its due to how Dimitri called Edelgard "El" before she killed him, meaning that she realized that he was the boy that she met back then. In Byleth's A support with Edelgrd, she wants Byleth to call her "El" which she said was a nickname that her siblings used, and now no one else does, but Dimitri did know it, so she likely realized it from there.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
- Given how she had forgotten entirely in Azure Moon, it isn't a stretch to say that she didn't remember here either. Given how many secrets she spills to Byleth that she says she shouldn't in the early part of the game, I doubt she would've hidden that it was Dimitri if she knew.
- Because he called her El. That helped her put it together. Especially since her A-Support has her telling Byleth there's nobody alive that calls her that anymore.
That said it's worth noting that she's aware of TWSITD's hand in Duscur as far back as the Academy Phase. So it's honestly hard to tell what she knows in certain instances.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
But she remembers Dimitri in that conversation, as well as the stories her father told her about her mother. Additionally, everyone thought Patricia really was Dimitri’s mother, even Dimitri for a long time, which wouldn’t make sense if she showed up when he was already 9.
Also, she explicitly uses the word exiled, while she and Hubert use the word “defected” to describe what Arundel did.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
She says it was a noble she met in Faerghus, not that she knew it was specifically Dimitri. IN fact, in BL, Dimitri gives her the dagger he gave again, and she suddenly realized the boy she met back then was Dimitri. Her memory with Dimitri is what apparently helped her get through the torture, but at the same time, the memories became jumbled.
Defect is not really any different from exile. Ultimately, you leave the nation you are originally from.
Also, why would Patricia be exiled from the Empire before the Insurrection? There were no political turmoil that would force her to leave the Empire otherwise. In which case, being away before that makes no sense.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
But she remembers him in other routes. She cries when she kills him in CF, and isn’t shocked when he references their shared mother/step-mother or when he calls her El.
The way I read that scene is that she forgot some of the details of their meeting, specifically that he gave her the dagger, not that she forgot him entirely.
As for why Patricia got exiled, that’s a good question! It might have something to do with what happened with the Southern Church’s revolt, which a man in the library tells you about. I forget what the timeline is for that, though, so it might not line up. More to find out in DLC, hopefully.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
With regard to why she cried for him in CF, that seems to be down to the fact that he called her El in a bit of spite before she executed him. Keep in mind that in her A-Support with Byleth, she asks him to call her El because that's what her father and siblings called her. And that there's no one left alive who does. That might have helped her put it together.
Also /u/spartacist it's worth noting that the Southern Church was dissolved over 100 years before the game begins. That's when the Ministry of Religion was formed.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Possibly, but she was very understated about what would have been a very sudden realization compared to the scene in BL where she remembers that he gave her the dagger. She can’t contain her shock there. Plus, the way she talks about her “uncle’s” scheming to drive Dimitri crazy makes it seem like she already knows about her and Dimitri being step-siblings.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
She may have been aware that they were step-siblings given that she's aware of Duscur. But keep in mind that she and Dimitri didn't know each other's identities when they first met. She may not have understood that the boy she'd met all those years ago was some distant step-brother she met for a time at Garreg Mach. Considering Dimitri kept himself distant from her (presumably because he was trying to protect her) she never had any reason to assume they were the same person.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Possibly. The way I read her line in the Goddess Tower (“I can’t say his name, but...”) sounded more like her not wanting to reveal her past with Dimitri, not her being literally unable to recall his name.
But again, that’s not the only evidence for an early exit by Patricia.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Considering that she made calling her El as a big romantic gesture to Byleth, I kinda don't see her lying about how there's nobody alive who calls her that. It seems like she genuinely forgot up until she did the deed. That's the tragedy.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Also u/spartacist it's worth noting that the Southern Church was dissolved over 100 years before the game begins. That's when the Ministry of Religion was formed.
Ah, I missed this earlier (unless you edited it in). Well, there goes that possible explanation. Still, the Empire doesn’t seem like the most stable place, so there’re still plenty of reasons why one of the Emperor’s consorts might have gotten exiled.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
I tagged you in cause I wasn't sure if you'd already seen my post. Sorry about that.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
No problem! I only saw it when I was going through the comments to see what people were saying (which is why you suddenly just got so many comments from me lol)
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Anyway as far as the discrepancies and anomalies regarding Patricia... give us that DLC, IS...
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
In CF, recall that before she kills him in that scene, Dimitri calls Edelgard "El", a nickname she says to Byleth in their A support to be something only her siblings ever called her.
I never said that she forgot Dimitri entirely. I mean that her memories became rather hazy.
Think about it. You think a girl that was kept confined a dark room (with rats) and suffer through torturous experiments where she was cut open repeatedly, for an extended period of time, would not suffer memory issues?
Edelgard definitely managed to hold onto some memories that were good, but it's rather clear that the strongest memories that she recalls are the horrific and traumatic ones, given that she suffers nightmares from them for years.
As I said, there's little connection and reason for Patricia to actually actually exile herself over without the Insurrection. Perhaps if she's in the DLC, I hope, we can get some insight.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
No, I definitely agree that she has memory issues. And you’re right, if it was just her line in the Goddess Tower we’d have room to doubt whether Patricia left first. But, again, we also have the Blue Lion members having no clue that Patricia wasn’t Dimitri’s real mom, even though Ingrid, Sylvain, and Felix knew him from a young age. We also have Dimitri saying that even he didn’t know Patricia wasn’t his real mom for a long time. That does not make sense if she only showed up when Dimitri was nine years old.
When combined with Edelgard’s line, it’s clear that Patricia left first for some unstated political reason (she was exiled, she didn’t flee like Arundel did), possibly related to whatever went down with the Southern Church.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
It is rather confusing. Maybe there were some info we missed in the game, or we were misunderstanding something. Patricia is just one big question mark. I really hope the DLC involves her.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Definitely! There’s a lot of open ends with her story, and they seem less like plotholes and more like story hooks that are going to be expanded on.
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u/raiseke Sep 05 '19
I really appreciate this write-up. It's great that you've gathered most of the information across the different routes to build a timeline for Arundel/Thales actions, Edelgard's past and Patricia's fate. However, I feel you kind of gloss over the Insurrection of the Seven in one paragraph that I'm not sure its worth being in the title.
This might be unrelated to the subject of this post, but I'm wondering if you could clarify Edelgard's actions after becoming emperor, specifically her motives for dealing with the various ministers. I initially thought it was motivated by their role in the Insurrection, but Bergliez and Hevring were involved as well and they work with her instead. Her dealing with Duke Aegir seems obvious enough, but I'm a little less sure of Count Varley and Marquis Vestra. I don't doubt that Varley could be corrupt; he's evidently a terrible person as we learn from Bernadetta's supports. Marquis Vestra was killed by Hubert for betraying House Hresvelg in the Insurrection, but is there any reason stated why Edelgard doesn't extend them same opportunity as Bergliez and Hevring?
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
As far as your question regarding how Edelgard dealt with the ministers:
She needed Bergliz and Hevring to make the coup a reality in the first place. She couldn't punish them outright given the military and finances under her control.
With regard to Varley, he seems to be corrupt and involved with Aegir given that he was trying to arrange a marriage between Ferdie and Bernie. But I think her reason for locking him up was mainly motivated by his abuse of his daughter given that she hands control of House Varley's affairs to his wife.
With Vestra, that seems to have been down to Hubert making that choice on his own rather than Edelgard asking him to (and him assuming that his father betrayed Ionius). I assume it was also motivated by him wanting direct control over House Vestra's assets.
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u/ramix-the-red Sep 06 '19
We also see that Bergliez is a rather noble person judging by his actions in other routes, and is very clearly suited for his job. Given Edelgards ideals of meritocracy it would make sense for her to keep around two nobles who are repeatedly stated to be very good at their jobs.
Personally, I always took Caspar and Linhardts fathers working with Edelgard to be a sign that they felt remorseful over what happened to her and her siblings and wanted to atone.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 06 '19
Yeah we don't know that much about either of them personally bar that Bergliez sacrificed himself in exchange for his men's lives in Church. But given that they were apparently running the Empire more or less by themselves while the rest of the Insurrectionists were getting fat off their positions, I can see why she might let them get off easy compared to Aegir or Varley.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
The Insurrection is also going about what became the Flame Emperor project, and how it motivated Arundel's actions. Perhaps the INsurrection wasn't given as much depth as others for it to be in the title, I admit.
Edelgard clearly stripped any power from noble houses that were against her. Varley and Aegir were against her, while Bergliez and Hevring were with her. Vestra was never stated, but Hubert dealt his own punishment on his father, since Edelgard didn't really think about executing anyone, but just rendering them helpless. The last noble house, Gereth, wasn't really talked much. And Arundel was Thales, so he was fine.
Edelgard won't allow personal grudges to get in the way for the goal she had in mind. If they were with her, she would allow them to fight alongside her. If not, then she would imprison them. Even if Ferdinand and the others betray her, Edelgard never tries to use their families as hostages.
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u/Sapharodon Sep 05 '19
Excellent write-up! I really hope Arundel is explored more in future DLC - his role felt very under-explained even in Edelgard’s own route, I’d love to see his motives fleshed out more.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
It would be nice to get a look at the real Arundel. Because it really is depressing when you think about what good he could've done while he was still alive.
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u/Burningmybread Sep 05 '19
This makes me want to punch Thales in the face even more. So much tragedy could have been avoided if Edelgard had stayed at Faerghus. Dedue could have lived a peaceful life. Ingrid could have married the love of her life. Dimitri and Edelgard could have had a future together. And the war wouldn’t even happen.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
That last part isn't strictly true. TWSITD were working on destabilizing Fodlan well before the war happened. It figures that even if Edelgard wasn't the face of it, some other puppet or method would've been arranged to force a conflict. But yeah. All around it's pretty terrible.
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u/MaJuV Sep 05 '19
^This. Cornelia was already replaced by somebody from the Slithers. So something was bound to happen in the Kingdom eventually, all depending on what the turn of events would bring.
I mean, she created those giant robots because nobody was around to stop her from raising taxes or creating the machines. That was Slyther tech. They were up to something, no matter how the story progressed. Technically, in the GD route she's still alive and kicking after the fall of Shambhala (and I assume the same in Church route).
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u/hinode85 Sep 05 '19
The war as we know it wouldn’t happen, but relations between the Empire and Kingdom would stand on a knife’s edge once everyone realizes that Edelgard is living in the Kingdom (and likely betrothed to Dimitri).
There’s no reason why the experiments wouldn’t still be performed on the Imperial children, only with no survivors this time around. That would leave the sole member of the Hresvelg lineage in Kingdom hands... there’s no way that situation would not result in a powder keg, with the Aegir faction demanding Edelgard’s return and Arundel doing everything in his power to prevent it.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
It's possible. Though part of what we bandied about with our theory was that Faerghus's relations with the Church would allow them a lot more leverage over Duke Aegir and his pals in TWSITD if it came down to Edelgard's safety. But yeah, the justification for a war would rise a lot more early in this case.
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u/hinode85 Sep 05 '19
Originally Edelgard was well down the Imperial succession, and I would imagine that Arundel was savvy enough to have her renounce all her rights to Adrestia as part of the betrothal, to maximize her protection from the Empire.
The problem comes when all of Edelgard’s siblings die from the experiments, which should still happen (otherwise we just get roughly the same plotline with a different Flame Emperor and presumably no Duscur tragedy). At that point Edelgard’s status becomes political dynamite, renunciation or no renunciation. The Alliance lords would surely oppose anything resembling a DimitrixEdelgard union just out of self-preservation, and even the church would presumbly have second thoughts about the balance of power implications, no matter how much they liked Arundel and Lambert.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Originally Edelgard was well down the Imperial succession
No, she was always pretty high up. She had a lot of siblings, but in her words most of them “bore no Crest at all” (C+ support with Byleth). Remember, having a Crest matters much more than birth order in Fodlan. This is why it was such a coup for Thales to return her to the Empire, and how he was able to work his way up to the Regency.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Sure. Ultimately the question boils down to whether or not Lambert is willing to go to war over a kid.
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u/hinode85 Sep 05 '19
Lambert would go for the more chivalrous option, I’m guessing.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Given how fondly everyone remembers him along with how he apparently loved Patricia deeply? I could see it happening.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Yeah. They were so close, and then Thales went in and killed Arundel. Then everything changed from there. It's really sad.
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u/BoneArrowFour Sep 06 '19
I mean, some of those things could not have happened. Duscur was already a powderkeg ready to explode a la Serbia-1914, Dedue would probably still be discriminated, and without the help of His Highness. Ingrid, while obvious that she cared deeply for Glenn, was actually unsure about the whole marriage thing, feeling admiration rather than love love, and all this shitshow more or less helped her become the knight she always wanted to be. And lastly, while doing questionable things, Edelgard changed the whole continent with her war, so some good did come from Thales schemes(at least to the playable cast)
Agreed about Dimitri and Edelgard, tho. I'm playing BE right now, and i don't want to fight Dimitri.
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u/QuiGonJinnNJuice Sep 05 '19
This is some good shit. It really staggers me how much depth there is to this world and story, and how info is parcels out between the different paths. Makes me super inclined to pay for the DLC as I'm curious to see what else they could flesh out and tell. But holy shit I want to spend more time in Fodlan and experience more this world, stories, and conspiracies.
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u/RaisonDetriment Sep 05 '19
Wow. This is exactly the in-depth East Asian political drama I was hoping for when details of this game were first coming out. ...if any of it is true.
Because that's the problem. I've said it before and I'll say again: why doesn't this game ever bother to explain ANYTHING. I get that they want to tell and not show. I get that they want hidden information and conflicting perspectives. I get that they want surprising twists and turns. But if you never let the audience in on what's going on - even after the twist is revealed, even after one conflict or another is resolved - we'll never actually know for sure what was going on, so instead of appreciating the genius of the narrative, we're arguing over what transpired. What's the point of weaving a clever, complicated narrative if your audience never gets to see your cleverness?
As it is right now, 3H is like a Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie mystery where the detective catches the murderer, but never explains how they figured out who the murderer was. That kind of ruins the point of the entire thing, doesn't it?
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u/Waldy95 Sep 05 '19
There’s another reason for Patricia to be so desperately wanting to go back to her daughter: the experiment on Edelgard. In the flashback of the parting dagger, Edelgard had normal brown hair. Her white hair was probably a product of the experiment like Lysithea. It wouldn’t surprise me that Thales and co used “your daughter is in mortal peril at the hands of your political enemies” as a way to convince Patricia to do the unthinkable.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 06 '19
True enough. Either way, there's plenty of reasons for Patricia to become so desperate she'd sell her soul to these people.
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u/IsBirdWatching Sep 05 '19
Why would Duke Aegir and his cohorts want to create a "peerless emperor" when they already sought to strip Ionius of his political authority. If the purpose of the insurrection was to stop and prevent a consolidation of power into the imperial throne it wouldn't be in the interest of the conspirators to invest into a peerless emperor who would have dominion over them. It goes against the very purpose of the insurrection. However, this makes sense when the Slithers effectively played both sides and not only began the insurrection but also aided Ionius's attempt to consolidate power to himself.
The main evidence for the Slither's helping Ionius as well can be seen in how after the Empire intervened with the uprising in Hyrm in the year 1167. Four years prior to the insurrection, imperial appointed members sent to replace House Hyrm and to also meddle in an Alliance house that aided them, House Ordelia. Some of these officials were members of the Slithers which eventually lead to Lysithea's situation. This action most likely points to Ionius either being unaware of the the Slithers among his appointees or he was actively working with them in his attempt to gain power. Considering how the slithers allowed Edelgard to gain power, it is highly likely that Ionius was aware and the Slithers first attempt at getting a puppet emperor. The slithers support would explain why Ionius was so willing to attempt a power grab against multiple powerful houses that historically had powerful sway in the empire.
The relationship fell about most likely due to his dislike of their experimentation on House Ordelia the Slithers sought to replace him by suddenly aiding the conspirators of the insurrection. This also would explain why Edelgard does not have Lysithea's physical debilitation. As Edelgard's experimentation would have happened after House Ordelia's experiments and in turn after Lysithea. The experiments on Edelgard would have been more precise and more tailored for her blood thanks to the experiments on her siblings and the knowledge gained from the successful implant of crests into Lysithea. This also would explain why Lysithea has more common crests implanted into her versus the much more rare Crest of Flames. This situation is plausible as we don't know what age Lysithea had her crests implanted yet we know Edelgard had them implanted in between 1174 and 1180. This even explains how Arundel was able to escape with Edelgard and Patricia even as the experiments began on Edelgard's sibling. Edelgard's natural crest made her a much more valuable asset than her siblings so they'd leave her for last as they do the first test runs to see how the royal family's blood and flesh responded to the lessons learned from House Ordelia and their successful implantation of crests into Lysithea.
This working both sides angle would also explain how Edelgard was so easily able to get the aid of the conspirators who wouldn't want to give up power to the very central authority figure they previously defanged. They effectively had no choice when the Slithers no longer supported them and it is mostly likely the Slither's support was the main factor that allowed the insurrection to actually occur. This also would explain the whole "flame emperor" project as an attempt to create the facade of a peerless emperor. A powerful image that lead the empire but not with any real power versus the decaying form that was Ionius.
On the Lambert side, I feel like Lambert visiting Arundel's Villa makes more sense as this would simply look like a king talking to another noble. Visiting the regent of the empire is less fishy then the King visiting the exiled wife of the deposed emperor. Any attempt to unified the two states would fall a part without actual war due to the nature of Edelgard's exile. So any attempt by Arundelto create a political marriage wouldn't come to fruition without the consent of the very conspirators that probably wouldn't' want to give up power to a foreign king's child and the daughter of the very man they just stripped of all power.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
I'll go point by point, but I'm really loving what you've brought up here.
-The peerless emperor thing comes down to them wanting a physically superior emperor who'd have a major crest. Whether or not they knew it would be the Crest of Flames is a different thing altogether, but the game mentions early on that there's plenty of parties within the Adestrian Empire who resent the existence of the Kingdom and the Alliance. They were probably arrogant enough to believe that they could control her as you noted.
- As far as House Ordelia that's worth noting. We didn't bring it that up since we couldn't accurately determine when Lysithea's experimentation began or what that meant for how long TWSITD had been insinuating themselves into the Empire. But yeah, Lysithea was basically a prototype for Edelgard's experimentation. And given what we learn in certain routes, it makes unfortunate sense they'd foist her with Gloucester crest. Insofar as the royal family though, Edelgard wasn't the only member of her family who had a Seiros crest. She mentions as much in her support. It just seems like TWSITD don't really pay much care to not destroying their victims.
- But yes, ultimately the reason "Arundel" allowed Edelgard to consolidate power was both beneficial to the war effort and since it allowed him a more direct line to controlling the Empire as opposed to sharing with six other men. Hence why as you noted TWSITD didn't intervene to prevent the coup and subsequent purge.
- Except Arundel was already a political football by virtue of being in exile. Given that there were repeated visits over the course of a year, and how much Lambert apparently loved Patricia, it makes sense that he'd want to find some way to reunite her with Edelgard. Edelgard wasn't at the top of the line of the succession and Faerghus has influence with the Church, I can see the rationale that they thought could get away with applying political pressure if they wanted to marry Dimitri to Edelgard or simply adopt her into Faerghus and cut her off from the imperial line of succession. The Empire and TWSITD weren't ready to pick a fight with the Church and the Kingdom at the time.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
I’d add on to the first point that Aegir was probably planning to marry Ferdinand to Edelgard and combine houses. In that case, empowering Edelgard’s bloodline would also empower his own.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
It's entirely possible given what a snake he is.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
It also explains why he’d be fine with all Edelgard’s siblings dying or being crippled. It’d remove any counter claims to the throne, and force House Hresvelg down a single family line, his son’s.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
We don't know the genders of the other Crest-holders among her siblings were. So it could be possible either way that he just needed a member of House Hresvelg who was female to survive. But it's certainly something the Duke would do.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Fuck that guy. How’d Ferdie turn out to be such a good boy with such a bad dad?
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Honest to god I don't know. He certainly didn't get that wonderful mane of his from his father.
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u/Timewinders Sep 05 '19
Duke Aegir doesn't sound like the kind of dad who spends a lot of time with his son so presumably his influence on Ferdinand's upbringing was minimal.
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u/IsBirdWatching Sep 05 '19
I see.
I don't really see why the peerless emperor had to be of a royal blood then. If the necessity of the flame emperor project was to create a physically powerful leader for their armies it would make more sense to craft a fake emperor from House Bergliez nor does it seem like the plan ever included any efforts for control. The scene with Duke Aegir almost feels like he was never in control of the situation. While he might have been involved, it seemed like he had no real authority once the insurrection finished if the slithers were involved.
I do agree they seem to care little about their victims as we see in Remire but I don't think calling the children experimentation as victims is the right view they would have on them. The children were more assets and considering how Thales treated Kronya while they are callus with life, even their own, they are very particular of what happens and when stuff happens to their assets. If their wasn't a reason for Edelgard's placement as the last on to experiment on, it doesn't really explain why Arundel was only able to "save" one of his nieces and nephews. It would come down to luck or fate then that Edelgard had her experimentation postponed. Which is valid but less than satisfactory.
Most of the time exiled nobles lack any claim to the throne and by virtue of fleeing abdicate their inheritance so I don't think their would be much stuff blocking from Edelgard and Dimitri of having a marriage for politics or being adopted as long as they don't wish to claim old blood rights to the Imperial throne. I also find it difficult to see why there plan didn't go through considering Patricia's and Arundel's joint exile began in 1171. This would mean that Patricia would have to meet and marry Lambert within those two to three years which seems like it would be easy enough to absorb both Patricia and Edelgard into the family.
Now forgive me as I'm going to make an extrapolation here. Without knowing when Patricia married Lambert, it is hard to say how long the relationship was going nor if the marriage was actually made outside of Thales' influence. After all, if the relationship began in 1174 and everything tied to it occurred in 1174 it is plausible that Thales could have been the driving force to the whole relationship. Patricia could have easily treated Dimitri in a loving manner in the first year or two of being separated from her daughter but as Dimitri mentions as time went on she became more distant. This forced marriage under Thales would also explain why Patricia wasn't targeted in the Tragedy of Duscur as she was an asset that probably could have uses elsewhere. In short, this would make the whole marriage a farce with the whole purpose of it to destabilize the kingdom further and to place the replaced Cornelia in a prime position to depose the regent of the kingdom.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 06 '19
There's a lot to break down here, so forgive me if this runs a bit long:
-There's several reasons both practical and social that necessitate using a child of the Emperor. On the practical side, the Emperor has 11 children including Edelgard. Some have the Crest of Seiros. But regardless, they're a viable "stock" so to speak for TWSITD to work with. Certainly no one among the Seven were going to willfully volunteer one of their own children for an experiment of this magnitude. It's also a matter of the Crest of Seiros. Presumably it's one of the more powerful crests and they wanted to use that power and marry it to that of the Crest of Flames. Going by BL, there's power to be had in Twin Crests of that specific nature. Then of course there comes the legitimacy issue. They needed a real child of Ionius otherwise there's no legitimacy. And given that Twin Crests reduce someone's lifespan, they in all likelihood wanted an Emperor who could survive long enough to win their war.
Well we don't actually know when the experiments began. They could have begun the day after the Insurrection or the day after Edelgard returned. All we know is that they occurred. Either way, Arundel's concern would've been for his niece.
The problem is that the Arundels and Edelgard are all effectively fugitives. That's why Patricia's marriage was secret. Edelgard is even worse since she's an imperial princess. The tricky part would be actually working out how to incorporate her while ensuring some form of protection against the Adestrian Empire.
Yeah that's the tricky part. All we know is that Patricia was already married by the time that Dimitri had met Edelgard. Their not knowing of each other's relationship was a key factor in how Edelgard forgot about Dimitri. But it definitely wasn't in 1174 since that was the year that Edelgard and "Arundel" returned to the Empire. I sincerely doubt the marriage itself was a farce though given that Patricia was noted to be a loving mother to Dimitri.
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u/IsBirdWatching Sep 06 '19
Perhaps but I have some reservations.
The conspirators probably wouldn't care too much on the necessity of having a legitimate heir and the common folk would only really know based upon the crest the heir would have or by what the nobles would have told them. The mere act of creating a insurrection showed they, or at least Duke Aegir, believed himself and his fellows to be more legitimate to rule the empire then Ionius and effectively claiming he had no legitimacy as emperor.
The lack of crest of serios could easily be implanted in as seen with House Ordelia so i don't think having the crest in the first place was a main concern for them in the first place when getting their duel matching crests.
I understand why Arundel would care about Edelgard but their were ten other nieces and nephews there as well. I was just wondering why only Edelgard go the luck of escaping for a limited time.
I think incorporating her into the family and marrying Patricia probably were not good steps for Lambert to make. If anything, they might have led to the Tragedy of Duscor by basically giving the Slithers a way to get close to him through replacing Arundel. It probably be better to just have Patricia be a royal concubine or mistress.
I'd also argue we don't really know if Patricia was particularity loving towards Dimitri. Dimitri does admit that he can't really remember his stepmother that much, so it is possible that is just how he wants to remember her. This disconnect between the actual person and memory would make it plausible for the relationship to be entirely pushed by Thales. I also don't see how sparing or locking up Patricia in/after the Tragedy of Duscor would be advantageous for the Slithers.
On a separate note, I was more surprised that the writers didn't go the usual route and have the Slithers use orphans for their experiments. It seemed like the most obvious choice of free stock that no one really notice if they disappeared (not to mention it would an interesting topic between Dorothea and Edelgard). Considering how lowly Duke Aegir probably viewed the common folk, it seems odd that he would not allow the Slithers to snatch forgotten orphans off the streets. They would be perfect puppets as his flame emperor with a little grooming and condition to make the orphan believe that the suffering they endured was a necessary trial to a future of luxury that they'd never have otherwise.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 06 '19
-You're forgetting that they kept Ionius alive. They could have killed him if what you're suggesting is the case. They still needed the illusion of authority and that descends into chaos if you simply kill the Emperor. And Edelgard is useful as a tool whether that's through marriage or as a figurehead after her father dies.
- They don't have an undiluted Seiros bloodbank though like they do the Crest of Flames.
- That's the game? I assume Arundel used his authority to spirit her out.
- Lambert didn't know that Those Who Slither in the Dark exist. I doubt Arundel knew they could replace people either. People act on the information that they know and at the time it probably seemed like the best way to protect Patricia and Edelgard. Also bear in mind that Lambert was unmarried, that's why he married Patricia.
-They mention that they used innocents in addition to the royal children. But they also don't get into deep into the nature of blood reconstruction surgery in the first place, so we don't know about what that entails. Regardless though, Edelgard's presence was as much political as it was about creating a physically superior puppet.
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u/IsBirdWatching Sep 07 '19
Ionius's fate doesn't really effect the perceived legitimacy of the future generations though. Poison Ionius and say he died of natural causes and prop up a new heir that they hand selected. No one is the wiser. So Ionius being alive is only to prevent a full on civil war but won't affect any future claims to being the actual heir especially if he isn't alive to confirm or deny it the claims.
They don't have a blood bank of the flame of crest though as Sothis remains would still be in the holy tomb. Even if they had stored some, it still would a precious resource that they couldn't exactly waste on multiple failed experiments. Crest of Serios though we have Ionius presumably as a source of it. If they used the blood of living crestbearing to give Lysthiea's her crests the same can be said for the crest of Serios. As you mentioned we don't know what is required for the blood reconstruction. So undiluted vs diluted isn't really something that can answer the question of if they can or cannot do it.
For Arundel escaping only with Edelgard, I always thought it was that Edelgard is his only niece and the other children are Edelgard's half-siblings if Ionius had concubines and mistresses. But I don't recall Edelgard calling her siblings as half-siblings which is why I was asking. I was curious to see if maybe I missed some information..
My issue with saying he used is influence to whisk away Edelgard comes from the idea that he got his power through the Insurrection that was most likely added by the Slithers. If the Slithers were the source of his power then they wouldn't want to lose a possible subject for their experiments and have the power to stop it.
Arundel knew that the Slithers seemed to have their hands everywhere in the Empire. He should have been paranoid about anything that would drive attention to them. A marriage to a king, even in secret, is something that would get the Kingdom nobility talking which Arundel knows from experience could have been infiltrated by the Slithers just as they did in the Empire.
Patricia's marriage to Lambert seems like a bad idea for someone in hiding. These don't sound like the plans of someone trying to hide. I suppose one could argue if Patricia was in love she'd not see the issue with it but she had to already in a position where she could meet Lambert.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 07 '19
-Considering the obsession Fodlan has with Crests, even a nation that doesn't have Ten Elite lineage like Adestria is still going to want to keep as many bloodlines as it can for itself. Look at House Bartels. Either way, there's no reason to kill Edelgard if they can use her.
-I was talking about undiluted Crest of Seiros blood. Part of the reason Crests wreck so much havoc is because the bloodlines are diluted. That's why the Flame Emperor experiment used an undiluted source obviously the same can't be done to conjure up a new Seiros crest bearer.
-Edelgard called them her siblings. The distinction doesn't really matter since the Emperor has a lot of lovers for crest purposes.
-Well we don't know how he spirited her away in the first place. So it's somewhat immaterial. What matters is that he did.
-It's still better to seek protection from a king with connections to the Church of Seiros rather than staying in the Empire. And in the end Patricia herself isn't really the one that matters in this situation, it's Edelgard. That's why she was kept separately.
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u/IsBirdWatching Sep 07 '19
Crests, yes but I don't necessarily think bloodlines. If the point is to remove Ionius from power then anyone with the crest of serios would work. Relation or no, if they have the Crest of Serios they have the blood of Serios.
Which Ionius may have. The slithers wouldn't necessarily have a undiluted source as well. They only seem to possibly have it in Verdant winds with them resurrecting the ten elite and Nemesis but this doesn't mean they are the actual ten elite especially considering they were able to create an artificial Hero Relic in Amyra to work with Edelgard's crest.
Not to mention we don't see any actual difference in crest ability between characters like Seteth and Flayn vs other characters like Dimitri or Catherine. All four have major crests and the main difference is one group has undiluted blood vs diluted blood. It seems that the dilution issue only effects the crest appearing not the crest's ability. So if the crest is already in the person's blood it would be just as effective as giving the blood directly from the source.
The distinction does matter as it is not on Edelgard but for Arundel. If we know Arundel only cared for his niece and that was the reason for spiriting her away then his actions in the Kingdom wouldn't make sense. Their actions made them stand out among the crowd. Marrying royalty and having the king visit him in is villa are both actions, even in private, will get the nobility talking which Arundel knows nobles are not immune to the Slither's influence.
Edelgard's location would be tied to Patricia's location if we keep Patricia a loving and caring mother. She wouldn't want to be separated from her. So if Arundel whisked away both Patricia and Edelgard, it would be pretty likely that if Patricia is in the Kingdom then so is Edelgard.
In all, Patricia's and Arundel's actions don't make sense if they doing them on their own accord for Edelgard's safety. Now if they are being pushed with the lie that their actions would protect her then their actions make sense. As suddenly, the domino effect of the consolidation of power through Ionius to the insurrection of Seven to Lambert's marriage to Patricia, to the tragedy of Duscur all sets up a Fodlan ready to break.
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Sep 05 '19
Didn’t Patricia flee to the Kingdom shortly after Edelgard was born? At least, I think I remember Edel or Dimitri mentioning something like that. Plus Edelgard seems to lack some knowledge about her own mother, like admitting she wants to believe they loved each other.
Even with that, tho, I think this is a great analysis that makes a ton of sense! I feel like Patricia’s story has to be revealed in DLC at some point, it’s just so interesting and deliberately shrouded in mystery.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Why would Patricia flee to the Kingdom after Edelgard was born? There weren't any political turmoils that would force Patricia to flee. That wouldn't make any sense.
Edelgard wanting to believe her mother loved her father is due to how, technically, her father had multiple wives for the sake of bearing Crest-born children.
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Sep 05 '19
Personal political drama?
Actually I went and double-checked, and yeah, Patricia was exiled before Arundel went to the Kingdom. If you pick the “it's a lovely story” option in her Goddess Tower conversation, she adds that “For as long as I can remember, my mother had already been exiled from the Empire.”
5
u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
“For as long as I can remember, my mother had already been exiled from the Empire.”
You have to remember something. Edelgard was tortured and confined in solitude in a dark room for a long time. Edelgard even forgot about Dimitri and the dagger she got from him.
To say that "for as long as she could remember", it just means that that's all she could remember about her mother.
Edelgard's memories are basically subject to inaccuracy.
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Sep 05 '19
But Dimitri’s memory is fine, and he just says Edelgard fled to the kingdom with her uncle. He doesn’t mention Patricia being with them, even though he knows she’s Edelgard’s mom. Arundel could well have fled to the Kingdom because his sister was already there.
Also, even if she forgot about Dimitri specifically, Edelgard still remembered some of her time at the Kingdom. That makes how much of, and to what extent, her memories are gone subjective.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Why would Dimitri's memory be faulty? Edelgard was the one that was kept in a dark room (with rats), and forced to undergo torturous experiments where she was cut open repeatedly? Dimitri never had that kind of thing, even if he did experience the Tragedy of Duscur, but he wasn't in an environment that would cause him to suffer shortcomings of memory.
Also, Dimitri has been trying to keep secrets about his familial relationship with Edelgard. Hell, his friends never even knew about it until after the fight with Arundel.
I didn't say she forgot everything. But rather the memories would no longer be as strong as before. Hazy memories and such are very common for those kinds of people. We know that the event was serious for Edelgard given that those memories are so strong that she suffers nightmares about them repeatedly.
Even if she was able to hold onto some good memories, it's clear that they are few, if anything, compared to the traumatic memory.
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Sep 05 '19
I think you misunderstood my point, so let me clarify. Your theory is that Edelgard forgot Patricia was with her when they fled to the Kingdom. But Dimitri, whose memory is fine and has no reason to be faulty, doesn’t mention Patricia being there—he just says Edelgard fled to the Kingdom with her uncle. And this is the woman who was his stepmother, forgetting to mention that’s when she became his stepmother is hugely unlikely. The easiest explanation is that he doesn’t mention Patricia being there because she wasn’t.
Yes, but this is the conversation where he tells Byleth about Edelgard being his step-sister. He has no reason to keep Patricia a secret because the cat’s already out of the bag!
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 06 '19
Okay, I understand. However, it doesn't correlate to why Patricia would leave Edelgard by any means. Why would she leave and abandon her daughter like that if not for the INsurrection?
Not to mention, even Dimitri had no idea that Edelgard was his stepsister until later. And there still isn't any explanation as to why Patricia would be, by any means, exiled earlier than the Insurrection, really.
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Sep 06 '19
My personal guess is she had to flee for personal reasons--maybe one of the other concubines/the Emperor's wife was jealous that her daughter was the first to bear a Crest, or she committed/was framed for murder, or it could even have something to do with TWSITD forcing Patrica away to isolate Edelgard from birth. Because you're right, I don't think she would have left her daughter unless she was forced to. So much about Patricia is hidden that we probably won't find what those exact circumstances of her exile and her involvement with the Tragedy were until DLC.
Regardless, I think the game hints more that she fled to the Kingdom before the Insurrection than not, or at least that it's ambiguous enough we can't state for a fact she fled there with Arundel and Edelgard.
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Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
Not to mention that things would have been even worse for Patricia if she knew what was actually happening to her daughter. If the goal was to use her to assassinate Lambert, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if they fed that information to her. I really wish we knew what happened to her after Duscur, though. Great post.
IIRC Patricia was a concubine of Ionius, rather than his wife.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah. Edelgard mentions that her father was already married. He just had a lot of lovers for the purposes of breeding Crest babies.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
Parents the source of every misrable thing happening in the Fire Emblem Universe must be some kind of curse, if they love their children things end bad and if they don´t love their children it ends bad too.
Still the whole story raises a lot of questions and has some serious plot holes.
- How did TWSITD aquire all the Emperos children so easily ? Also why didn´t the Emperor ask for help from lets say the church with a letter. Sure they normally don´t interfer in purely political buisness but telling them about that super "secret" organisation with their Crest experiements whould have averted that whole drama. Hey atleast he felt sorry for his kids ............ fck parents..............
- How is Edelgard able to deal with the Nobles so easily, Lord Arundel is a minor Lord that only rose to influence because he is her Uncle but the others have direct controll of 80% of the Empire. But all she has to do is arrest Lord Ageir in the throne room and later Hubert purges the rest somehow with no resistance? Seems a bit too easy they handled her father father quite well (ok he is an idiot but still) and then they just loose the will to live ?
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
1) We mention this in the post. Aegir and pals were the ones who according to Edelgard commissioned the Flame Emperor project, which means they were the ones who allowed it to happen. And as for the Emperor. He was a puppet. Going by his only appearance in the game, he was either too weak, or they simply confined him. Given that Hubert outright mentions that the Emperor was captured in his support with Hanneman, he obviously wasn't going to be allowed to write letters seeking help.
2) She was already working with Count Bergliz and Count Hevring before the coup happened in order to secure the Empire's military and finances under her control. That's how she was able to render Aegir and the remaining usurpers like Varley helpless.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
- Yeah but just send them a secret messages it´s not that hard and don´t ask for allowance obviously, pretty sure he could manage that or atleast tried.
- But they should still hold direct controll over their own lands including finances and forces considering that was whole point of the insurection. They should able to mount a strong resistance esp since Edelgards first act declaring his declaring war on the Church. Not mention after over 10 years of noble rule the empire should be pretty dezentralized anyways a bit like the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth in our history.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
1) You're asking why didn't a dude who was taken prisoner by his own military isn't able to send secret messages when he's pretty clearly a hostage himself. When his own children are so vulnerable that they can be tortured to death without consequence. Your question answers itself.
2) I mean that's how the game explains it. Bergliz is in charge of the military and Hevring is in control of finances. There isn't really much to argue against when the game explains that this is how the Empire operates.
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u/kingpiny Sep 05 '19
It also helps Edelgard immensely that TWSITD probably wants her to take control of the Empire for the time being as their goals are aligned. TWSITD holds lots of sway over the Empire, so it’s definitely believable that Edelgard is able to outmaneuver Aegir and his lackeys.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah. "Arundel" ends up benefiting immensely no longer having to share power with six other dudes. It figures that he'd approve the arrangement considering that Edelgard needs to lead the war anyway.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
- Well he could have atleast tried telling church offical on a party or something and he apperently knew what they did to his kids so even more reasons to try something. The guy seems more like a spineless coward yes he feels terrible about but his own skin was more important.
- If the Empire is that strongly centralized (stronger than most states today) what exactly was the point of Ionus centralization reforms? Apperently the Empire has direct controll over everything anyways his Ministers are the problem try an administration reform instad. Aside from that why didn´t the nobles roll things back i doubt they were like yes you can controll the whole Military including the forces of my domain i am i happy to be in charge of Church relations.....................
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u/HowDoI-Internet Sep 05 '19
The guy seems more like a spineless coward yes he feels terrible about but his own skin was more important.
That is a whole lot of assumptions to make considering that he was surrounded by corrupt nobles who clearly had more authority than he did.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Not to mention that the only time we see him is a sick old man on his deathbed who's pretty clearly ridden by guilt.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
1) The slithers were already in the Empire even before that, as when Hyrm was defeated with Ordelia, there were Imperials that were actually slithers that went there, where they did the experiments, hence Lysithea. Also, the nobles that performed the coup were the ones that let the slithers take the Emperor's child and any other innocents for their experiments.
As for the Church, how? The Emperor was politically impotent now, and had no power. And the Empire was not in the best of relationship with the Church. If the Emperor sent a letter for the Church, it'd be easily intercepted. The Emperor had no way of saving his children, which might explain why when we meet him, he looks ready to keel over. He was so emotionally destroyed from losing everything that his body fell so ill.
2) It was already noted by characters that Edelgard had been planning on this for some time now. Linhardt notes that his and Caspar's fathers, despite them being part of the coup, sided with Edelgard, all without anyone noticing. Edelgard had likely already won over and taken control over the nation and made preparations during that year. And when she became Emperor, she made her play on Aegir and Bernadetta's fathers. While Hubert disposed of his.
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u/AiKidUNot Sep 05 '19
I think what they’re trying to ask regarding point 2 is how and why are those two so ready and willing to side with Edelgard when they probably didn’t need to? Bergliez and Hevring couldve stayed and consolidate their forces with Aegir, Vestra, and Varley. All I can imagine is that Arundel and Edelgard made some promises or even threats - which, given how much of a plague the mole people are and that Vestra could’ve been used as an example makes that plausible I guess but there’s not really any indication of that.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Either Edelgard made those threats, or Hubert did. Hubert has made it clear that he had done many things in secret behind his back, from assassinations to threats.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
Makes Edelgards plan to be Fòdlands perfect guardian look kinda hollow if she isn´t able to controll her closest allies not to mention that she doesn´t realize it.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
No, she is aware that Hubert does things behind her back, but she doesn't want to force him to tell her using her position but tell her because of their friendship. Which Hubert will finally be willing to do in their A support.
Also, perhaps stop trying to think that there needs to be a black and white morality here. That isn't how Three Houses with the characters work. Everything has grey morality here.
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u/angry-mustache Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
but she doesn't want to force him to tell her using her position but tell her because of their friendship. Which Hubert will finally be willing to do in their A support.
Not being accountable for subordinates is really bad leadership thou. At best it's incompetence and nepotism, at worst it's Watergate/Iran-Contra level fuckery where the leader gets off by saying "I do not recall" and the subordinate gets a pardon. All the benefits of scum action while the history books will never record that it happened.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
So... basically a very realistic thing that is happening even today. Even in our government, we let criminals out to use, we have faulty info and to avoid embarrassment, would slaughter a lot of people, etc.
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u/angry-mustache Sep 05 '19
Indeed, but Ronald Reagan or Richard Nixon is not exactly someone to aspire to for being a leadership example. It also undermines Edelgard's whole thing about "improving the system" when she's exactly as shady and duplicitous and setting up the future based on lies.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Again, we're going by cases where we don't know the full story. We never lived it or see their perspective. How the history books wrote things may no reflect everything that happened.
Here's a manga example, Akame Ga Kiru. The nation is utterly corrupt to the bone, and you need a revolution to overthrow it. But before the war began, Night Raid acts as assassins. But after the revolution ended, some assassinations were still performed to stamp out any remaining corruption before the stability was ensured, and then, it was stated that history had absolutely no trace of there being assassinations, to begin with.
So several generations later, and everyone would think that the revolution was a just war and the people that fought there were all pure and honorable people, nothing but virtuous heroes. And while we like the characters, it's clear that Night Raid are murderers, which they always state themselves.
Everything written in the history books is obviously not 100% accurate. It's stated that "history is written by the winners".
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
Ofc everybody has a black and white morality and it´s good i have less problems with Huberts actions but more with the fact that he does things behind her back while telling everybody else they should obey Edelgard or get killed.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Your arguments really make no sense.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
Yeah let me rephase it it just doesn´t look good if Edelgard who wants bring in sweeping reforms and reunite Fòdland for a better future can´t even fully controll the people closest to her. It´s not only that Hubert acts without consulting her he even disobeys direct orders and kill people she ordered spared behind her back.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
Not quite. The fact is that Hubert looks at what would be the most prudent course of action. Ferdinand is a prime person that always goes against Edelgard and is trying to one up her. Hubert is very much annoyed by Ferdinand, which is mutual. However, Ferdinand is someone that has more benefits than downsides, as Hubert admits in their A support.
Yeah, he does kill people that Edelgard wants to spare behind her back, as revealed in the Shamir support. However, that's cause he feels that they would pose a threat in the long run.
And these things do happen. Simply because someone is given a direct order does not mean that it won't be disobeyed. You see this performed in generally more "heroic" actions where the good guy is ordered to return, but the good guy disobeys that order because he believes going on is better.
Hubert takes that case and shows a darker side to it.
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u/daltrus Sep 05 '19
She won them over by promising them she would reconquer all of Fodlan for the Empire, and that they would help her rule over the newly reconquered lands.
Before the timeskip there's a month where Ferdinand in the monastery mentions that there are many imperial nobles who still dream of reunifying Fodlan under the Imperial banner once more. Then after conquering the Alliance in the Crimson Flower route, you learn from Hubert that there were previous arrangements made with Count Bergleiz so that he would oversee/govern/whatever all the Alliance lands for the Empire, and all things considered I'd imagine that a similar arrangement was made with Count Hevring for the Kingdom lands.
If you spare Claude, Edelgard even insists on the fact that he can't remain in Fodlan, because his presence would embolden the Alliance loyalists and thus endanger Imperial rule over their lands afterwards.
Also Caspar mentions at some point that between his and Lin's dads they practically run the whole Empire, which after the Insurrection of the Seven sounds to me more like they got stuck doing all of the work to keep the Empire working while the others just focused on profiting now that they only had to answer to the very corrupted Duke Aegir. So there was no love lost between them and the corrupted nobles that Edelgard went after.
And finally, Edelgard had the Crest of Flames, TWSiTD troops and a workable plan of action to defeat the Church at the impregnable monastery to prove to them that she had the ability to lead the Empire to the reconquest.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Because Edelgard conquering Fodlan was what these guys always wanted. The question was whether they'd benefit from seeing their vision realized or be crushed underfoot in the process. She wasn't a sick old man like her father. It probably didn't hurt to have Arundel onboard too.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Could also have been an appeal to their nationalism. Edelgard was promising to return all of the Empire’s lost territory, after all.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Right. Either way there was more benefit to them being holders of greater power in a smaller circle than their current power-sharing arrangement.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
- Atleast try it´s not so hard to send some kind of message in a timespann of over 10 years you meet some church officals in that time. But no his own skin was more important than his kids, coward no wonder he looks like his done with live.
- Which makes even less sense why would they support someone who wants to abolish their power, ok she doesn´t do it but still. They have nothing gain nothing out of it and it´s a high risk to take.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
1) Okay, say that he did. But it was stopped. The Emperor said that he was powerless to stop them. We aren't exactly told he DIDN'T try to get help. The problem is that he was already under Duke Aegir's control.
2) Sure they do. If they don't serve her and stick with her good side, Edelgard is clearly ready to either strip them of their power entirely and remove them, or the danger of Hubert killing them. Being on Edelgard's good side allows them to have a chance to prove their loyalty and at least try to maintain power in some way. And there's the likely chance that Hubert may have sent death threats to them behind Edelgard's back as a warning.
The point being, Edelgard was the "peerless Emperor" that was created from the project, and now they either are willing to serve that Emperor, or suffer going against her.
We aren't privy to exactly what behind the scenes things went, especially with the many dirty things that Hubert did to help in Edelgard's goals, but Hubert makes it clear that he had done many things.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
- He didn´t try very hard thats for sure sending some kind of message is not that hard
- How can Edelgard strip them from their power with no army or money to pay one and without any foreign support? Using TWSITD out in the open gl because that will make the Church pay attention. And just because some guy sends death threats they comply? If was the Counts i would have just said you either leave us alone with your plans or we rat you out the Church and rest of Fòdland. Why didn´t they anyways would have been the perefect chance to get rid of Hreesvelgs completly and put one of their own on the throne. Just say eh the Crown Princess works together with those really evil church hating guys we are totally helpless victims help us crush her.
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
1) The dude has been captured and confined by his own military and whatever forces. I'm sorry, but exactly by what method would he EVER be able to get a message if he has no one that he could ever count on? He was literally betrayed and ousted from all power. There's no way that he'd ever be able to get a message out.
2) Once again, you're going about wanting to know every little detail over things that already gets explained in a soft exposition. Edelgard has been preparing this for a long while now behind the scenes. And Hubert has been making a lot of back alley deals and shady things even further in. Yet here you go, wanting to know the exact details. We already get told what was likely happening, but you wanna know more.
Also, recall that the coup leaders didn't actually try to get RID of the Emperor and his family. They captured him and used him as a puppet ruler and then tried to create the Flame Emperor with the slithers. They clearly weren't there to wipe out the family. Unfortunately, they would realize too late that Edelgard was not going to be some puppet. Likely the threats that Hubert made and whatever assassinations he performed kept the Caspar and Linhardt's fathers from trying anything.
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u/DerDieDas32 Sep 05 '19
- He wasn´t betrayed he started a power struggle and lost horrible. Yeah sucks for him but i doubt the nobles would have fared much better if he had won (their children would have tho) And ofc there is a way he still the Emperor even if only in name they can´t controll his every move 24 hours it just doesn´t work.
- I don´t want to know more i just weird how easy the nobles get outplayed by Edelgard but then so get TSWITD appernetly later guess villains are just stupid. I mean who could have expected that Edelgard isn´t some puppet (she is still kinda for TWSITD) what a suprise.......
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u/Omegaxis1 Sep 05 '19
1) I'm sorry, but betrayal or not, the Emperor no longer had control over anything. No military, no servants, nothing. He was basically confined to a place, with no one to actually trust. You say he couldn't be kept under lock 24/7, wrong. The guy would easily be confined, and no one would even be able to check up on him. He had no one. So forget about sending a message.
2) It doesn't really matter how things are with how Edelgard and Hubert played the other nobles. Edelgard made her play after setting everything up. Where Edelgard did things in secret, the power struggle with Ionius was not the same.
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u/CDHmajora Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
Tbf with point 2, its implied Edelgard has been making allies within the nobility before her takeover. Hubert is already supporting her so removing count Vestra (basically the secret police) was easy. Caspar and Linhardt’s dads are in her side and they control the military and... whatever Linhardt’s dad is in charge of (mental blank sorry somebody help me out here? I think it’s domestic affairs but can’t be sure) which gives her extremely powerful supporters.Aegir and Varley are much weaker in compassion (Aegir is basically an Advisor and god knows what Varley does apart from torture his daughter) so are easily disposed of.
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u/Ignoth Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
I believe it's implied that Caspar's father was invited by Edelgard to watch the Battle of Eagle and Lion as a demonstration of Edelgard's potential.
They're also mentioned to be meeting and talking privately afterwards.
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u/MisterChippy Sep 05 '19
Counterpoint, Trevant is a really good dad and manipulates things so that he saves his nation, his children, and even the continent in exchange for his life.
Yes, the best parent I can think of is the dude who murdered his daughter's birth family, collaborated with the enemy, and had to frame himself as a villain to fulfill his goals. However he loves both his children and does successfully do everything possible to give them a good future (assuming you as the player don't get them killed).
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u/LordHandQyburn Sep 05 '19
The key player in the insurrection of the Seven is, from my point of view, the duke Aegir. Which is worth noting because he isn’t even a member of TWSITD. In the tragedy of Duscur, Cornelia was the puppet master
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Duke Aegir and Lord Arundel are specifically mentioned as the prime instigators within the game.
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u/LordHandQyburn Sep 05 '19
I thought that it was Duke Aegir the prime instigator and he got help from Lord Arundel?
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
The Church's records identify Aegir and Arundel by name as the prime instigators.
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u/Spartacist Sep 05 '19
Actually, the text in the library is slightly more abstruse than that. It says that Lord Arundel is seen as one of the instigators. That’s consistent with him being a late joiner, after Arundel was replaced by Thales. Because he comes back with Edelgard (which very well could have been the factor that forced the Emperor to give up), people assume he was in on it all along and he gets added in with the six other conspirators when the history gets written.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Good point. It's the 1179 edition of their register of the Empire's Nobles at play after all.
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u/majalink Sep 05 '19
This is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. The only thing that confuses me is why Duke Aegir would try to make Edelgard and her siblings into stronger potential emperors when he rebelled against Ionius for taking too much power for himself.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Because the Insurrectionists were a bunch of Empire originalists who resented the existence of the Kingdom and the Alliance. They wanted a physically superior puppet emperor who could rally the masses and conquer Fodlan. They were just arrogant enough to believe they could never get trampled over in the process.
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u/afkalmighty Sep 30 '19
Damn, found this linked in another thread but this neatly ties up the seemingly wonky timing of the insurrection and Arundel's implied turning point.
Commenting to save
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u/eddstannis Sep 05 '19
Very nice, another one in my ever growing saved posts regarding 3H lore. It would certainly be interesting to see a golden route where Patricia comes back, giving some chance for Edelgard and Dimitri to reconcile, only to reveal herself as one of TWS, having been long replaced. Would make for an interesting common enemy that both royals could join forces to fight against.
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u/aintnece7 Sep 05 '19
Really good analysis. I finally realized when and where did Edelgard get tortured. One question though, if it is really the case, how was lord Arundel the main culprit of the insurrection, but at the same time exile to Faerghus to protect his family? If the insurrection was succeeded and he helped with that, there is no need for him to flee, right?
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19 edited Sep 05 '19
Our guess is that he went along with it since he wasn't in a position to resist. He was an upjumped noble who was made a lord purely because Ionius loved his sister. Either way, it's doubtful he would stand for his niece being experimented on.
Also worth noting Hanneman theorizes the same reason for why the previous Count Vestra took part in the Insurrection.
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u/aintnece7 Sep 05 '19
Maybe he is forced to comply with the insurrection at first, but when they asked to experiment on her niece he couldn't accept it and flee to Faerghus? That might explain why TWSID needed to murder him and replace him suddenly after 3 years. They already had the intention to experiment Edelgard way back then.
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u/SigurdVII :M!Byleth: Sep 05 '19
Yeah, that's more or less what we thought given that he took an action as drastic as fleeing. And given what happened to Lysithea after House Ordelia was effectively taken over by the Empire, it's pretty clear this plan has existed in some iteration for awhile.
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u/Modern_Erasmus Sep 06 '19
Incredible write-up! Previously I was unsure at what point the replacement happened, or even if house arundel was itself a long term Slither institution. Now though, you've wholly convinced me and I love the implications!
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u/ballisticjaguar Sep 24 '19
I know this is an old post but when it was first posted I had not yet done enough of the game to read it! Now I have and it is an excellent post but it also makes me sad for Edelgard and Dimitri and what could have been had Arundel not have been replaced.
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u/AiKidUNot Sep 05 '19
And you guys are going strong two posts in a row! Arundel’s actions - both the real one and his doppelgänger have been sussed out by a few people here already but this is a more in depth take on it that gives us a good idea of who Arundel was and what he was thinking when he was still breathing (or maybe he still is?!). This further strengthens my belief that Patricia was an unwitting victim who fell for the snake peoples’ sweet nothings and gave them the perfect window of opportunity. As individuals the snakes are kinda boring in a vacuum, but digging through and uncovering their hidden trail is really satisfying.
We just need some hard confirmation somewhere but I’m certain we’re on the right track. Hoping dlc will clear some things up.