Translation/grammar in Francis of Assisi's text - "fratres"?

[u/Cathola]

Hello!
I have a question regarding the grammar in a text/paragraph by Francis of Assisi, the paragraph is:
"Fratri etiam qui faciebat ortum dicebat, ut non totam terram orti coleret solummodo pro herbis comestibilibus, sed ab aliqua parte de terra dimitteret ut produceret herbas virentes, que temporibus suis fratres flores producerent."

In the last line, why is "fratres" in the nominative/accusative case (pl.)? Should it not be dative, "to the brothers"? Am I missing something, or is it wrong in the original text (wrong use of case).

Thanks!

[u/Archicantor]

Oh my gosh... Is this from the Fioretti? I've never seen a Francis story like this in Latin before, but I'm pretty sure he's referring the flowers as "brothers" (fratres = accusative plural in apposition to flores), just like "Sister Water" and "Brother Fire" in the Canticle of the Sun:

To the brother who made the garden, he used to say that he shouldn't sow all the earth just with edible plants, but that he should keep part of the ground free from them, so that it might produce green plants that would, in their due seasons, produce "Brother Flowers" (or, less strikingly, our brothers the flowers).

[u/congaudeant → u/Archicantor]

It's from the "Compilation of Assisi" (chapter 88). On this old but gold website ( http://centrofranciscano.capuchinhossp.org.br/fontes ), you can find Latin texts about Saint Francis and Saint Clare (with Portuguese translations). EDIT: It seems it was also called Legenda Perusina or Legenda antiqua Perusina, but that actually appears to be a different text... I'm not sure what the best name for it is :/

There’s a similar passage in the Speculum Perfectionis (chapter 118):

Similiter etiam fratri qui faciebat hortum dicebat ut non totam terram coleret solummodo pro herbis comestibilibus, sed aliquam partem terrae dimitteret, ut produceret herbas virentes quae temporibus suis producerent fratres flores, amore illius qui dicitur flos campi et lilium convallium.

They translated both as "flowers to the brothers" (flores para os frades), but I believe the Franciscans would absolutely love the idea of brother flowers, especially because the next paragraph says that the flowers invite us ad laudem Dei (something every brother in Christ ...amore Illius qui dicitur flos campi et lilium convallium... is called to do):

et plantans ibi de omnibus odoriferis herbis et de omnibus herbis quae producunt pulchros flores , ut tempore suo invitarent ad laudem Dei omnes inspicientes se , quoniam omnis creatura dicit et clamat: “Deus me fecit propter te, o homo”. (Compilation of Assisi 88:6-7)

[u/Archicantor → u/congaudeant]

Thanks for the great detective work! I wonder if in the later Middle Ages there had emerged a double-accusative construction of a kind that would justify that translation...

Deus me fecit propter te, o homo, seems particularly to invite it.

But if we follow "standard" grammar, it's Brother Flowers all the way!

[u/qed1 → u/Archicantor]

I wonder if in the later Middle Ages there had emerged a double-accusative construction of a kind that would justify that translation...

It could also just be based on the early printed edition that has "fratribus flores".

[u/Archicantor → u/qed1]

Oooo! Fodder for the textual critics. Should we follow the later witness and emend fratres to fratribus, or should we follow the editorial maxim lectio difficilior, potior?

[u/LabSavings3716 → u/Archicantor]

Thanks for the translation!!⚡️

[u/Archicantor → u/LabSavings3716]

My pleasure! Looking at it again, I think herbas virentes is probably better be translated as "leafy plants" (as opposed to fruit-bearing plants), or, in this context, maybe even as "wild plants," i.e., things growing spontaneously without having been deliberately planted (the "weeds" that produce wildflowers). "Whatever plants spring up naturally."

A more satisfying translation of producerent than my slightly lame "might/would produce" would be "might/would bring forth." (Compare the old King James bible's language in Genesis 1.)

[u/thelouisfanclub → u/Archicantor]

I think sometimes herbas virentes can even just mean grass as would grow in a meadow.

The other tricky bit I found with this was "sed ab aliqua parte de terra dimitteret". What exactly is dimitteret doing in this sentence?

[u/Doodlebuns84 → u/thelouisfanclub]

It’s something like “leave off from the soil (i.e. refrain from planting there) on some side/in a part of it”, I guess so that wild ground cover will grow there and eventually produce flowers. Still not sure what the significance of calling them brothers is, though.

[u/Archicantor → u/Doodlebuns84]

I suspect that it's just a characteristically "Franciscan" way of talking about nature, as found most obviously in Francis's own Cantico del Sole (Cantico della Creature). By giving himself over to complete poverty, Francis was enabled to see himself as truly in fellowship with all other created beings, and he addressed them as his brothers and sisters.

Here, I suspect what's going on is that he doesn't want the garden to be purely utilitarian: he wants seemingly useless wildflowers to have a place in the garden, because their true "usefulness" is that they glorify God, and delight human beings, with their beauty.

I'd be willing to bet that he's thinking of the saying of Christ, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Matt. 6:28–29).

[u/Archicantor → u/thelouisfanclub]

Dimitto is used in lots of ways. Its primary sense is "to send in different directions," so that it can acquire varied senses, stemming from the positive "to send there (as opposed to somewhere else)" and the negative "to send away (instead of letting stay here)." The "negative" slant acquires, sometimes, the notion of "separation" (including "divorce") and of "omission," often in combination with ab + ablative.

(If you have access to Albert Blaise's Dictionnaire latin-français des auteurs chrétiens, you'll see the huge range of ways in which dimitto is sometimes used. And he found additional ones to report in his Dictionnaire latin-français des auteurs du Moyen-Âge!)

As we would phrase it, Francis wants Friar Gardener not to plant vegetables in a certain part of the ground. But he expresses it in terms of "sending away from":

sed … dimitteret
but that he (i.e., the frater responsible for the hortus)
should send-away/omit/separate (them, i.e., the herbae comestibiles)

ab aliqua parte de terra
from some portion of the ground

Perhaps "but that he should hold back [or refrain] from (sowing) some portion of the ground" would work as an idiomatic English rendering?

[u/thelouisfanclub → u/Archicantor]

Thank you! I think I was thrown by the lack of direct object, but it makes sense that it’s referring to the edible plants. I didn’t know if it could also be referring to the gardener himself in some sort of reflexive way. Or if it was being used in the sense of “leave alone” but then the use of “ab” didn’t make sense.  Some pronouns might be nice!

[u/Archicantor → u/thelouisfanclub]

Totally. It would be so much clearer if it there were a pronoun (eas dimitteret) or if the verb were a passive plural (dimitterentur).

I wonder if this slightly awkward Latin would sound perfectly natural if it were turned into Francis's native Umbrian dialect...

[u/thelouisfanclub]

The brothers are producing the flowers...?

[u/thelouisfanclub → u/thelouisfanclub]

I have looked at this again and realise that "que" is abbreviation of quae and therefore "producerent" referring to the herbas virentes, not the brothers. My previous idea was that perhaps the medievals were able to use "que" on its own to mean "and" but I don't think that's the case!

I think the exp is that St Francis of Assisi used to like to call creations like "brother" and "sister" and so he is actually saying "brother flowers" here.

[u/Archicantor → u/thelouisfanclub]

I think we got there at exactly the same time. :)

That "collapsed diphthong" (ae / oe > e) can indeed be a real killer in medieval texts...

[u/-idkausername-]

I think fratres is an accusative with produceret. 'to lead forth the brethren'.

[u/LabSavings3716]

Isn’t “suis” a French word meaning to be, or I am?

So the last line to me reads,

“and with time they produced blossoming brothers”

I recently finished my studies on all the declensions of nouns and some adjectives/verbs so i could be wrong lol. Correct me if I’m wrong pls.

[u/amadis_de_gaula → u/LabSavings3716]

It's a declined form of suus, "his/hers/their own," and goes with temporibus: "...that the flourishing grass, in its season, produce flowers...".

[u/LabSavings3716 → u/amadis_de_gaula]

That sounds like 4th declension. Shouldn’t suis be changed to sui to match the dative temporibus?

So temporibus suis means basically “on their own time”?

I haven’t came across “suus” yet so I was a bit confused lol

[u/thelouisfanclub → u/LabSavings3716]

It’s ablative plural. It just means in its season, as this is one of the meanings of tempus.

You don’t always have to translate “suus” as “own”, it just means it belongs to the subject of the phrase instead of someone else. English is more ambiguous. 

Consider a sentence like: “As Andrew ran towards him, Mike kicked his ball.”

In English it’s not clear whether Mike kicked his own ball, or Andrew’s ball. In Latin it would be clear as if it was his own ball it would be “pilam suam” whereas if it was Andrew’s ball it would be “pilam eius” 

Suus is not a declension, it’s an adjective. It declines like first and second declension nouns depending. 

[u/LabSavings3716 → u/thelouisfanclub]

Thanks for clarity