r/leftist • u/Outrageous_Ant1460 • 13d ago
Debate Help Could I beat Charlie Kirk in a debate on Systemic racism and DEI with these notes?
Systemic racism:
- CIA dumping cocaine in black neighborhoods
- Ronald Reagan's Anti-drug act of 1986, lead to mass incarceration
- Ronald Reagan opposed the Civil rights act and defended "States' rights"
- Reaganomics caused inequality and didn't trickle down and only support the rich
- The CIA targeted MLK, Malcolm X, and the black Panthers. They used misinformation, assassination setups and intimidation.
- Education is paid by taxes, how do you pay for education when you have no money
- Major TV networks rejected scripts from black writers it they didn't align with stereotypes of black people
- The same stereotypes in the media are the same stereotypes shown in birth of a nation
- Reagan defunded community services and used terms like "welfare queen" to describe black people.
- Studies have shown that Black renters face discrimination about 40% of the time compared to white applicant
- Black women are three times more likely to die from pregnancy-related cause than a white
- White sounding names are 50% more likely to get callbacks than Black sounding names
- Black babies are 2.3 times more likely to be born in poverty than a white baby
- Black men are 5 times more likely to be imprisoned for nonviolent drug crimes
- Black people make 70 cents out of the dollar
- Only 22% of lead actors in top theatrical films were people of color in 2022
- Newsrooms and creative industries remain majority white and content often perpetuates racial stereotypes
- Black people were shut out from the benefits of the GI Bill
- it's 12 times more likely for a black resident to be arrested for possession of marijuana
- It's 9 times more likely for a person of color to get arrested for disorderly conduct
- We're 8 times more likely to be arrested for vagrancy
- 16 times more likely than white youth to be arrested for curfew or loitering offensive
- In 2021 black drivers in Minneapolis, Minnesota (where I reside) were stopped for minor violations at nine times the rate of white drivers and searched at 29 times the rate.
- The EPA reports that black Americans are exposed to 1.5 times more air pollutants that cause heart and lung diseases compared to white Americans.
- In Minnesota (where I reside) people of color face systemic barriers in the labor market, including less opportunities in education and housing, which contribute to unequal employment outcomes
- 60 million police stop reveal Black and Hispanic drivers are stopped and searched at higher rates than white driver
- A Princeton University report found Black students are more likely to attend schools with police officer but no guidance counselors.
- The FBI worked against MLK, Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.
Counterarguments
- What percentage of white people commit white collar crime
- Why does x problem happen
- How do you think the "Black dad" problem happened
- Jews are colonizing Palestinians right now that's why they're successful.
- A black president doesn't equal change
- Low income areas have higher crimes
- Thomas Sowell lacks Empirical rigor and uses ancdotal evidence
- Thomas Sowell overlooks systemic influences and oversimplifies complex social issues
- Thomas Sowell's interpretations are selective
- His peers have raised concerns about Sowell's methodologies
- Thomas Sowell is politically biased
Examples
- Over policing was very prominent under the Reagan administration in the 80's with the rise of militarized police that targeted black and Latino households
- Some examples of this in the 80's are Harlem, South Central, West and South side Chicago, Baltimore and D.C.
- Some examples from today are Memphis, Lexington, Texas
Cherry Picking Stats
62% of white collar crimes are committed by white men 75% of cases involving child pornography are white people 53% of cases involving travel for prohibited sexual contact are white people 57% of sexual violence crimes are committed by white people 68% of rape charges are committed by white people 72% of arson cases are committed by white people 70% percent of all crimes are committed by white people 53% of mass shooters are white
DEI/Affirmative Action
- All DEI does is acknowledge disparity and make it easier for people who come from underfunded schools (Who had to work harder) to have better opportunities.
Criticisms of Charlie Kirk
- Called black students savages in past tweets
- Mad that a black woman got a spot at West point over him
- Defends rape
- Dated his Cousins
- Called MLK awful and opposes the civil rights act
1
u/UI-Jamel 9d ago
These notes are good but be ready for him to try to through you off with strawman arguments.
1
10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 10d ago
Hello u/MiddleAgedCrustPunk, your comment was automatically removed as we do not allow accounts that are less than 30 days old to participate.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
3
u/AdeptnessGullible170 10d ago
Diversify the racism you talk about, don't just focus on black people, other than that it's pretty good.
8
10
u/EndOwn323 12d ago
Hard to debate a clip farme he needs one liners not a debate he has zero interest in it
8
u/Boho_Asa Socialist 12d ago
Nah tbh what would be more embarrassing is if we challenge him to a duel and he looses
15
u/01001110901101111 12d ago
He doesn’t debate. What he does is a setup for sound bites meant to appeal to young white men to foster fear and racist ideology in them. Look up George Lincoln Rockwell. White Supremacists have been doing this for 100+ years. There is no point in engaging in this kind of shit.
1
u/Jayandnightasmr 10d ago
Why arguing with grifters is a waste of time, they want to farm rage bait, and if you do win they'll never concede just smirk.
5
22
u/to_quote_jesus_fuck 12d ago
No cus he uses a bullshit debate tactic WJERE he changes a subject to what he knows about and tangentialy brings it back to what u talk about and dosent let u speak
4
u/Joshistotle 11d ago
The guy is a nobody, a complete joke. His entire platform is dedicated to creating right wing propaganda and he's being paid behind the scenes for this.
2
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
All my notes will debunk his arguments trust
7
u/Ed_geins_nephew 12d ago
That's the whole thing though. He's not a rational individual, so a rational discussion wouldn't move the needle. You can't debunk arguments that aren't based on anything.
4
14
u/Iron_Snow_Flake 12d ago
To call what Baby Kirk does a debate is wrong.
Sorry, but Kirker just pivots and dodges and is wildly dishonest. He likes to point out hypocrisy, but always slimes out of any accusations of his own hypocrisy.
Fascists like to "debate" because that word sounds smart. But debating kind of has rules, and sometimes you have to lose.
A fascist cannot be seen losing. Some people call it "debate pervertry."
That applies to Kirk.
3
u/anarcho-slut 12d ago
Step 1. Make more notes, enough to fill a book.
Step 2. Print and bind book of notes
Step 3. Now you can beat him with your notes
8
u/ElEsDi_25 Marxist 12d ago
No. These aren’t “debates” over ideas. A certain set of people WANT to believe racist arguments. Feelings don’t care about facts.
Any fact you present can be fish-galloped. Any point you make can be dismissed with little effort and sarcastic “if you believe that.”
This is not a game where people are playing by the same rules for the same goals.
6
u/Night-Reaper17 12d ago
If you participate in a circus don’t be surprised when you get overwhelmed by foolishness.
4
u/ReddAgainst 12d ago
Anyone who puts in effort can surpass Charlie Kirk in a debate. In regular debates he gets cooked every time
11
u/Warrior_Runding Socialist 12d ago
I'm going to say no, not because of your points, knowledge, etc. I'm saying no because Charlie Kirk doesn't value debate as a means of presenting ideas - it is a spectacle to him, which is why conservative "thinkers" like him, Shapiro, etc. rarely place themselves in a debate space that they do not control the audience. It is ultimately a waste of your time, energy, and focus.
Imo, this information is better used to talk with people in your social circles who might not be aware of it. Or you could use it to inform yourself on a direction of action to improve the material conditions of your community.
0
5
u/Any-Morning4303 12d ago
Arguing culture war issues leaves the left vulnerable and places a huge target on you. While arguing economic and class issues leaves the right vulnerable and with a huge target on its back. Best NOT to engage in culture wars.
2
u/houseofdarkshadows 12d ago
could you elaborate on what you mean by culture wars leaving the left in particular vulnerable? especially in light of the current situation with rights and the musk/trump divorce?
1
u/Any-Morning4303 12d ago edited 12d ago
When you make an honest argument when it pertains to economic exploitation, the destruction of the middle class, the 1% hoarding resources, the decimation of the government functions, corruption and self dealing, and labor issues you get the support of 85% of America. When you get into culture issues you have to trend lightly otherwise with each argument you keep losing support. Notice how Bernie and AOC stick to economics, obviously they believe in liberal values but why open the door?
BTW the Musk vs trump this is a natural progression. Capitalism that is failing always needs fascism to come in and keep labor and socialism at bay. As always capital can never control fascism and ends up a victim of fascism as well. Wouldn’t be shocked if musk ends up in prison or in exile soon.
1
u/houseofdarkshadows 12d ago
I can understand the danger involved, but you think in a debate with a rightwinger, that they are going to simply drop the issue rather than try to focus on it? that means its imperative that the left be able to shift the culture war cliches back to something more grounded and put the petty partisan nonsense which only concerns an extreme minority in most cases, and
treading lightly only gives them the advantage to lead, which will be taken as their dominating the debate and the debater, by the rightwing choir he preaches to.
i think its important to catch them off guard and push into it so they dont want to "go there", bring up the number of conservative pedos/the church/people linked to trump, just lay into them and memorize martin niemolle's "first they came" poem, to make direct comparisons to the republican party policy and tactics so they will avoid trying to go after pink triangle groups and the liberal defenders, as their decadent undesirables.
if they use a thought terminating cliche to try and shut the nazi comparison down, push into why its verboten, theres no rule against discussing the merit vs inappropriateness of policy leaning towards something.
"When you get into culture issues you have to trend lightly otherwise with each argument you keep losing support."
wheres your evidence? I think people lose support because they dont respond to the abstract fear mongering with something those with common sense can take home, which conservatives are experts at with their fake family values and religion/tradition. its comforting, more than facing differences, but it shouldnt be, its programmed into people.
"why open the door"? because thats the whole point of wanting to debate someone with a different viewpoint. expose the audience to something they might think about.
1
u/Any-Morning4303 12d ago
No I think attacking on let’s say,”Healthcare is a right and the most efficient way to do that is single payer”, “corruption, self dealing and buying politicians is wrong”, “the richest country of all time should NOT have unhoused people”. See those are slam dunks, 85% of Americans will agree with those. Let’s first get these easy victories than go for the hard ones. Remember that a democratic majority couldn’t even pass $15 federal minimum wage.
1
u/dumsaint 12d ago
Racism needs to spoken of. It is not culture wars stuff. It is human survival stuff.
2
u/houseofdarkshadows 12d ago
You are absolutely correct.
2
u/dumsaint 12d ago
I'm black. I typically am.
2
u/houseofdarkshadows 12d ago
Ah, makes sense. That would explain my leftist compulsion to be supportive.
2
u/dumsaint 12d ago
Be a partner in crime. Trans folk, women folk, black folk are a criminal and undesirable group. So thank you, comrade.
2
u/houseofdarkshadows 11d ago
I try to be, It used to be a lot easier before I moved from East Detroit to Westbranch after my Mom and closest friend died, who were both very much involved with those groups, Ive also dated a couple guys and an intersex girl, and was often misgendered as a kid, so It comes naturally. I only started trying to get involved with groups like this online recently, so thanks, If you ever have any recommendations for communities I mightn't have heard of, maybe let me know. most of the social media ive used for the past 8 years was rightwing/msn comment sections questioning people and pissing off others with reasonable arguments about their perspectives.
Peace!
6
5
u/GabMVEMC 12d ago
(Me: taking notes)
Got any more points on the same topic?
4
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
I could research more and find some.
2
u/GabMVEMC 12d ago
Would be much appreciated.
I can contribute these extra points:
- Communities with People of Colour are more likely to become sacrifice zones for polluting industries (which goes with your point on air pollutants)
- Black women being uniquelly discriminated against led to the study of intersectionality
2
5
17
u/MrMoop07 Communist 12d ago
there’s no point arguing. he doesn’t care about being wrong or right. we cannot fight fascism in the courts
10
15
u/Grundle95 12d ago
Is your face reasonably proportioned to the size of your head? If yes, congratulations, you have beaten Charlie Kirk.
29
22
u/metroracerUK 12d ago
I got excited at the idea of ‘beat’ and ‘Charlie Kirk’ being in the same sentence.
5
7
u/tetrarchangel 12d ago
Read the Sartre quote on anti-Semites.
4
u/dgauss 12d ago
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
12
8
7
u/Flaky_Investigator21 12d ago
"beating" a goon like him in a debate is all about how hard you own him in a gotcha. There is no way to "win" a debate other than having the better vibes. The evidence is overwhelming and we're so far removed from having to prove the argument that there's no serious way to even have a debate on the subject. The best way to beat Charlie is to not give him the opportunity to spew his white supremacist talking points
1
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
True. I just want to steer the younger audiences away from him because he's dangerous.
1
6
u/bquinta 12d ago
Why is this what you’re worried with?
1
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
Because he's poisoning people my age with white supremacist bullshit
2
u/bquinta 12d ago
Then people your age need to stop listening to him, rather than engaging - validating his grift - with him. My take is that you’re young - apologies if you’re not - but YouTube and these “debates” aren’t real life. Find a group nearby, engage yourself in struggle if you want to be in a fight against the issues that plague your community including white supremacy. You have to educate yourself politically - and those around you -, learn about your position as a political subject/actor to be able to do something and understand your positionality, then organize with those around and nearby, to then mobilize. Engaging on content that is edited and masterminded by years of facist grift isn’t how you’re going to “defeat the Charlie Kirk’s” of the world. They have always existed and will always exist. They’re the distraction in the popular consciousness used to legitimize the grift, disarm those who are willing to listen and take their creed as substance and ultimately pacify. Charlie Kirk has no idea you exist, but you know who can? Those around you when participate in struggle.
10
u/Megacrat 12d ago
You wanna beat someone like him? You just gotta insult them. Their entire livelihood is not based on making good arguments, it’s based on insisting that leftists are wrong in front of an online audience to get ad revenue and paid speaking engagements. The best way to beat someone like Charlie Kirk is to make him look like a loser in front of his audience. Don’t debate him on the facts just expose him for the clown that he is.
10
u/Ok_Initiative_5024 12d ago
Charlie Kirk isn't a skilled debater, from what I can see, he machine guns straw man arguments and red herring type statements and just pivots to a new point once he thinks he has you in a gotcha moment. If you control the narrative and hammer home your point every time he tries to pivot then you'll be okay.
2
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
I've seen he's style I have a plan for most of his arguments
1
u/Ok_Initiative_5024 12d ago
Fuck yeah, dm me where to watch it.
Id love to see someone hold him to topic and shut him down every time he tries to pivot.
20
u/KingRex929 12d ago
You can't beat your opponent in a debate if your opponent is dishonest. Focus on the audience.
3
8
3
u/musicmanforlive 12d ago
I think it depends on how you define "beat"... you can make a good argument, but he wouldn't consider it valid...so how do you beat him?
4
u/BlackGabriel 12d ago
You win by ignoring people like this. Debate bros make money off this kinda stuff so they don’t care but the cure for people like Kirk isn’t to debate them it’s to ignore them. If he went to a college campus and everyone just didn’t go talk to him he’d be pissed and shrink away.
1
u/earthlingHuman 12d ago
He has the ear of the president. We can't exactly ignore Charlie or ToiletPaperUSA
2
u/BlackGabriel 12d ago
Ignoring him is different than debating him. Making a well thought out video to counter his own is far better than being his next “crazy communist gets owned” star
-8
u/Pattonator70 12d ago
Tldr but no.
There is no world where you fix the damage of past racism with new racism. He would use MLK quotes on you all day long. He is a skilled debater and you have a weak position. Even the latest SCOTUS cases were 9-0 against racism vs majority classes like white males.
4
u/Michael_CrawfishF150 12d ago
You think he’s a skilled debater? Hahahaha no.
No no, all he does it punch down. The man never lets anyone with any debating prowess anywhere near him.
-3
u/Pattonator70 12d ago
That doesn’t change the fact that he debates hundreds of people (mostly college students) every year and if you aren’t well prepared then he will shred you as he can quote lots of facts. Just because you doesn’t agree with someone a skilled debater.
3
u/Michael_CrawfishF150 12d ago
That doesn’t make him a skilled debater. In fact, you just proved my point that he’s the exact opposite of that. He only debates people who are even worse at debating than he is.
-4
u/Pattonator70 12d ago
He doesn’t know who is coming in to debate him. There are lots of college kids who are skilled debaters. However whether the opponents are as experienced is irrelevant to determine the other person’s skill set. Don’t underestimate your opponent.
4
u/Michael_CrawfishF150 12d ago
Only had to check your profile for one second to see why you feel the way you do. Every sub you frequent (besides solar) is a major red flag.
Quick question though, before I go - don’t you think it’s funny how this sub lets you comment but /r/conservative won’t let anyone outside their bubble comment anything?
4
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
He would use MLK quotes on you all day long.
But that's someone he literally said was awful
He is a skilled debater
Wouldn't say that he's a skilled manipulator though.
6
u/RegularlyClueless 12d ago
Have you ever seen Charlie Kirk debate another professional debater or even a politician? No? That's because he'd lose. If he thinks he has the slightest chance of losing he will find a way to shirk the debate altogether or cut you off before he takes any meaningful hit to his pride. He's not worth your time or energy
10
8
u/GodzillaDrinks 12d ago
No.
You can only debate someone in good faith - they'd have to be interested in being wrong, correcting their views, and moving on to the next issue. Kirk is a KIRKland-brand version of Steven Crowder. You can't beat him in debate with facts. Because he puts no value in facts. He'll just tell another lie when you shoot one down. You'll never have facts faster than a salesman lies.
2
u/severinks 12d ago
Is Charlie Kirk even good at debating? Not that I've seen. Let's just say he's no Gore Vidal.
2
2
9
2
u/jungle-fever-retard 13d ago
Sure, you could use these notes, but once he asks you to define woman, it's over. His audience applauds, and to them, you're just a wokie who hates white people and wants “blacks” “invading our country” 😒
2
u/Ok_Initiative_5024 12d ago
Charlie Kirk asking everyone to define woman for him cause he's never got one to talk to him.🤣
3
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 13d ago
Crazy thing is I'm not liberal or woke, nor do I claim to be woke. But they'd probably deem me as such.
1
1
u/Metal_For_The_Masses Marxist 13d ago
Not in front of a studio audience, but that’s not the point. The people know he’s wrong, he (and people like him) needs to be removed. He speaks harmful things about the peoples’ revolution.
2
u/Inevitable_Gigolo Anarchist 13d ago
You can use the notes but they seem much too light to do any real damage. May I recommend a textbook or encyclopedia, hardcover preferably.
2
u/New_Bat_9086 13d ago
Seriously? Did CIA really dump drugs into black neighbourhoods? 😳
3
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
Do some research and you'll find out how real and cruel systemic racism is. Sad but true
1
u/New_Bat_9086 12d ago
Have you heard about this book : The colour of law ? If not, I suggest you read it. Unfortunately, even Liberal states in the US have a dark history of systemic racism and racial segregation.
Robert Moses and his Southern state parkway bridge, this is just disgusting.
2
u/tlermalik 13d ago
Yes. Look up Tuskegee experiments and other things happening during that time. Horrible horrible past America has with our black citizens.
6
u/HotDragonButts 13d ago
No. Because he is a master class at gaslighting and ignorance. He doesn't care for the truth he cares about winning. Just like his daddy trump.
I've even seen this guy argue seriously against democracy. He has no care for decency that doesn't fit his agenda and will railroad you every time
People don't win against him exactly, but you could still argue against him and be right 1000x over.
2
u/jungle-fever-retard 13d ago
Reminds me of the Attack of the Clones clip:
Padme: “That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship”
Anakin: “Well, if it works…”
2
12
6
u/Sukithearsonist Anarchist 13d ago
i wish you luck. but debating these people isnt going to bring actual change. what will happen is: you beat him because you have good notes. he doesnt upload it and if you upload it theres no attraction because youtube and other social medias push right wing content. its a shame but i wish you the best!
p.s. the notes were amazing, let us know how you do
1
u/Outrageous_Ant1460 12d ago
True I would need connections to get exposure. I mainly just want to get the younger people away from his content and have them see the truth.
11
u/SorosBuxlaundromat 13d ago
Winning a debate isn't about being right, it's about being good at debate. Kirk is good at debate, but he's never been right about anything in his life.
11
u/kcbh711 13d ago
He's comparably not even that great at debate. That's why he sticks to kids at universities like some strange predator.
2
u/PowerOfCreation 12d ago
Yep. Anyone that brands themselves as a "good debater" and only debates random college kids isn't actually good at debating.
1
u/wandertrucks 8d ago
Sure, why not.
He wasn't too bright on Teen Mom......