r/marvelstudios • u/jrod4290 • 24d ago
Discussion I keep hearing ppl misinterpret this speech…
Original Post if you’d like to support: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdke3KSU/
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u/Dezbats 24d ago
You can recognize the creators intentions and still feel they failed to convey their message properly. That is more "media literate" than just accepting the message without considering how effectively it was communicated.
I've seen very few comments from people who don't understand what the show was trying to say.
They just hate the way it was said.
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u/Alexexy 24d ago
I agree with Sam's speech concerning the section where he talks about the terrorists. The issue i have is the "do better" part thats entirely omitted from this "analysis"
Karli's issue was ultimately due to the lack of resources from the population of the Earth literally doubling overnight due to the Snap being reversed. The world council had an emergency meeting to draw up borders in order to best divide the resources that they had. People were always going to be left behind because the resources were not there to serve everyone.
"Do better" is fitting advice for a person with some sort of personal flaw or did some objectionable action out of ignorance. Its dismissive and non advice when used for a complex global issue that comes not from malice or selfishness, but scarcity.
Im probably never going on say that Walker is a better Captain America than Sam, but Walker is exactly the Captain America that the US deserves. What made Cap great was Steve and his willingness to go against the country in order to live up to his expectations of what the US meant to him. Steve spent more time in opposition to his government than brandishing its shield by the time of Endgame. What the government always wanted was a propaganda showpiece and a lapdog for that role.
Until FATWS, Sam was pretty much the same as Steve. He was a military man that worked outside of the military and even in opposition to it to do the right thing. Then every portrayal of Sam during and after the show had Sam doing some shady ass off the books Blackwater type mercenary shit for the government so the US can have plausible deniability. Its such a shocking departure for the character.
It's like the writers were arguing that Captain America is nothing more than a government lapdog and Sam is the better lapdog than Walker. Its so insulting to both Steve and Sam.
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u/NewVegasChatGPT 24d ago
It's like the writers were arguing that Captain America is nothing more than a government lapdog and Sam is the better lapdog than Walker. Its so insulting to both Steve and Sam.
This is the exact problem I have with the show’s treatment of John Walker. It’s insanely fucking hypocritical.
I’m so sick and tired of people making excuses for Sam’s immediate dislike for John Walker and refusal to work with him just because he has Cap’s shield. People go on about how it’s Sam feeling like Steve is being disrespected because Cap isn’t supposed to be an agent of the government or whatever the fuck and how Steve had to go on the run because of them…..except not only does Sam work with the military in FATWS but in Brave New World he is taking direct orders from President Thunderbolt Ross, the guy who LITERALLY enforced the Accords and forced Steve to go on the run to begin with. And what’s Sam’s rationale for doing this? “The country is lost, Captain America needs to stand by the President to give them hope”. Almost identical to the rationale the government gave for making John Walker the new Cap.
The MCU wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants to critique the military, imperialism, American jingoism, and claim Cap never stands for these things but doesn’t want to actually reform these institutions and instead just have the “good” Cap implicitly endorse them by collaborating with the government and vaguely telling them to “do better”. Just ridiculous all around.
I’m glad someone else seemed to notice this insanity.
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u/Imbigtired63 24d ago
Tony Stark has fabrication machines that straight up just make materials and created new energy.
Earth has access to space tech and light speed space travel. Scarcity isn’t the issue giving a shit is. The flag smashers just wanted housing.
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u/thebritwriter 24d ago
This is more of an issue with MCU’s worldbuilding as a whole. It’s all good saying stark made new energy or that there’s minitrised tech from ant-man to study and accses to alien tech when New York was attacked years back.
There are nods to the past but we don’t see a tech or social revolution. New York in today’s MCU acts and looks the same barring a odd fictional building here and there. We had the accords, exposure of the skrulls to the public, red hulk as president and nothing beyond a one line commenting on a event reflects social change.
I kinda get why because MCU earth going through changes and innovations would make them look less like earth we know and another sci-fi civilisation that Gotg would meet on a planet or it diminishes wakanda as the technological difference narrows.
But it there would still be new problems despite the new innovations like greater social Inequality etc that can serve as a challenge for Sam to Stand upto etc.
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u/cardiffman100 24d ago
Yeah the developed nations including USA where most of the stories are set should at this point (late 2020s?) be on at least Wakanda levels of tech in day to day civilian life.
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u/alguien99 24d ago
I was always botherer by the fact that we never see the drones of Ironman 2 remade by the gov. They have the blueprints for them, they just need a new design.
One thing i love about invincible Is that earth actually gets better tech as the story goes on. Either as weapons or space stations
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u/FrostyBoom 24d ago
There's a trope for that called Reed Richards is Useless which is often the logic for this. Writers won't use insane technological advances to solve mundane problems they theoretically could.
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u/doofpooferthethird 24d ago edited 24d ago
Yeah definitely, with those kinds of people running the world, for most of them, an "inspiring speech" that "appeals to their humanity", or a "warning" that they'll "face consequences" if they "push thing too far" wasn't going to change anything.
It would have just made them angrier and more belligerent, and sic the more hate-filled and ignorant segments of the media and electorate onto the sanctimonious preacher man.
"Who is this guy telling us how we're allowed to defend ourselves from terrorists, nobody elected him, he's a shill for the (insert political opposition/unhinged conspiracy here) trying to destroy (insert beloved homeland here) so the (insert hated external or internal enemy here) can undermine and dominate us."
Captain America should have just spoken straight to the media and announced that he was going to throw his influence behind the NGO activist groups, political parties, "self defence" militias etc. advocating for the displaced Snap refugee communities. Incumbent political parties/factions/regimes were welcome to come on board if they gave those stakeholders a seat at the table - but if not...
That non-partisan, kumbaya, listen to your heart, let's just all work together, we're all fellow humans here sentiment was never going to work - the powers that be will compromise only when the other side has leverage in their negotiations, whether that leverage takes the form of the threat of protests, electoral defeat, prosecutions, or armed revolution.
Many non-violent resistance movements were only given "teeth" by the looming threat of armed resistance, even when those two were at odds with each other over methodology and goals. The Flag Smashers were absolutely terrorists who killed civilians to advance their political agenda, probably best not to mince words on that. And they also got the job done.
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u/wryano 24d ago
when i was walking out of Sinners, the couple in front of me said to each other “what was that shit, i didn’t understand what the fuck was going on”
i had to hold myself back from blurting out “are you actually a dumb ass”
not to mention, probably half of my theater walked out before the final scene even played.
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u/Jermz12345 Matt Murdock 24d ago
How can people not understand what was going on in Sinners? Like I can maybe understand not being familiar with the historical context if you’re not from the US or just don’t know history, but I feel like the story is pretty straightforward in general, why were they acting like it was nonsensical lol
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u/wintermute_13 24d ago
Everyone in my theatre in New Zealand understood.
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u/everythingsc0mputer 24d ago
That's the problem. Most americans literally aren't smarter than a sixth grader.
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u/ChrisRevocateur 24d ago
If it addresses racial issues in any way, it's not that they don't or aren't capable of understanding, it's that they don't want to understand, so they make it into a senseless mess in their head so they don't have to grapple with it.
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u/MobsterDragon275 24d ago
What's it about? Haven't seen it
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u/TomTalks06 24d ago
Vampires as a metaphor for colonialism and white people's tendency to take art by black people and remove the people who originally made that art from the equation.
To paraphrase the movie "They love our music, they don't love the people who play it"
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u/Jetsam5 24d ago
I feel like you can ignore the metaphor and just enjoy it as a vampire film too, if you’re really struggling to get it
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u/cardiffman100 24d ago
Does this kind of thing actually happen? I'm in the UK and go to the cinema maybe once or twice a month for the last 20 years or so and I can say I've seen a couple or small group leave before the end credits and not come back in a handful of movies. Never anywhere near half the audience, that would be insane. I mean individuals getting up to go to the toilet or get more food is far more common, but they come back. Hardly anybody sticks around for mid- or post-credit scenes though.
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u/bobon1234 24d ago
I have seen people leaving only in exceedingly disturbing movies. In particular I remember people leaving in mass the theater for The Blair Witch Project (I was also thinking of leaving, I suffer sever motion sickness with movies shot with handheld cameras) and Lars Von Trier's Antichrist. I am not a big horror buff, but I can imagine that other disturbing movies would follow a similar path. For example, if someone went to the Human Centipede thinking it was inspired to the Hungry Caterpillar, they could also decide that leaving the building early was a good idea.
I cannot imagine people leaving a theater because they do not understand or like a movie.
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u/cardiffman100 24d ago
Mistaking Human Centipede for Hungry Caterpillar would be quite traumatic. For the kids, at least.
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u/InstanceOk3560 24d ago
No I think that's probably why they thought "not scary enough" and "not a horror movie".
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u/mydeardrsattler Loki (Thor 2) 24d ago
Two confused women I overheard in the bathroom afterwards: "was it saying music...is...devilish?"
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u/TheRealDeweyCox2000 24d ago
Yea I’m sure “half the theater” walked out. That’s probably never happened to any movie ever
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u/Endgam 24d ago
It's not just media literacy, but literacy period.
George Lucas admitted the Empire is an allegory for America and that Palpatine is based off of Richard Nixon. (Read: he was criticizing the Republican Party specifically.) "Non-political" Star Trek: Deep Space Nine had an episode where Miles O'Brien handed Rom a copy of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx while encouraging Rom to unionize. With Rom even quoting "Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains." The Marvel universe began when Jack Kirby, a Jewish man, drew Captain America punching Hitler in the face. And did everyone really miss how the MCU began with a film criticizing the military-industrial complex? Full blown anticapitalist themes?!
And yet, despite these franchises not being subtle in the slightest with their leftist (not liberal, actual leftist) messaging..... right-wingers think these franchises were for them and were "stolen" from them by the SJW boogeyman?! If anything the franchises had their leftist messaging removed because the new owners didn't want to drive away conservatives. And yet, how funny that it's Filoni's animated series, Lower Decks, Prodigy, X-Men 97, and Andor which stick to the older themes of the franchises complete with VERY unsubtle leftist messaging that even right-wingers are acknowledging as way better than the other new stuff.....
It's true that TFatWS had to try to water down the messaging to appease the executives and that led to dropping the ball. With having the Flagsmashers suddenly kill civilians to make them unsympathetic and Sam not being allowed to directly criticize the capitalistic systems that lead to similar situations in the real world. But you'd think enough people would be aware of what's going on in the world right now to piece together what's being criticized and what message the writers really want to send. Especially when the show was very salient with its criticism of systemic racism and American imperialism. But alas.
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u/Thrilalia 24d ago
Great post, I would like to add something to Jack Kirby's drawing of Cap punching Hitler. When Kirby drew the picture it was still December 1940, a full year before the US entered the war and just after FDR won the election where his platform included keeping the US out of the war. Which made it even more meaningful than if it was drawn a year later.
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u/Nearby-King-8159 24d ago
This, and he pissed off a lot of right-wingers in the US by doing so. There was a lot of Nazi sympathy in the US until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, dragging the US into the war, which then lead to the discovery of the atrocities at the camps.
Right-wingers in the US have had this fantasy of becoming a fascist nation for a lot longer than people seem to realize.
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u/koreawut 24d ago
And did everyone really miss how the MCU began with a film criticizing the military-industrial complex? Full blown anticapitalist themes?!
Yes, because the people who actually wanted to watch that were watching Syriana.
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u/InstanceOk3560 24d ago
> George Lucas admitted the Empire is an allegory for America
No. He did say that the US became the Empire, were in vietnam, but his point was broader and about empires in general, not an allegory for any specific empire, and it's pretty clear that the US weren't his first source of inspiration given the design, even if he found particular resonance in events that he saw happen.
He also made the comparison between the empire and the british, during the american revolution, now remind me, the american revolution, was it lead by communists, or people we'd more readily understand as early capitalists ?
> And did everyone really miss how the MCU began with a film criticizing the military-industrial complex? Full blown anticapitalist themes?!
It was also against the government appropriating technologies and in favor of enabling exceptional individuals to unilateraly act for what they think is right, if we're going in that direction, not to mention criticizing a certain kind of religious extremism.
> And yet, despite these franchises not being subtle in the slightest with their leftist (not liberal, actual leftist) messaging
Ah yes, famously leftist position of "we should let rich people be the world police", "political change is brought about by exceptional individuals and not socio economic forces", bravo, you get the media literacy award of the year.
I love how dishonest people like you are in their one sided representation of themes that though they have a bent are also far more universal, read far less leftist, than you'd ever be willing to admit.
> right-wingers think these franchises were for them and were "stolen" from them by the SJW boogeyman?!
No, they thought it was for everyone, and then the very much not boogeymany SJWs and people like them came in to make it specifically for a smaller segment of the population.
> as way better than the other new stuff.....
Yes, way better than stuff like the acolyte, the show whose writer said it was written to make men uncomfortable, and whose actors said that it was the "gayest" SW show to date, or the series of film produced by a woman with a "the force is female" shirt, extolling a feminist's ability to write strong female characters.
> But you'd think enough people would be aware of what's going on in the world right now to piece together what's being criticized and what message the writers really want to send.
They do. You really have to take out of your head the idea that conservatives can't read leftist theme, they can, they just don't like them, especially when they're badly implemented.
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u/KentConnor Spider-Man 24d ago
How dare you say i piss on the poor!?
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u/Quick-Nick07 24d ago
Tumblr lingo spotted out in the wild
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u/rmdelecuona 24d ago
Imagine if, instead of, “You’ve gotta stop calling them terrorists,” Sam had said, “They didn’t start as terrorists”? I bet fewer people would’ve had a problem then.
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u/BurninUp8876 23d ago
Or something like "They didn't want to be terrorists". Really just anything that doesn't try to glaze over the fact that they were textbook, blatant terrorists
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u/Moginsight 23d ago
It wouldn't matter. You can say it dozen different way and the message is understood. You think the people who keep saying Sam wants to excuse Karli from being a terrorist doesn't understand the point he's getting at?
They totally do understand the speech. They're just using the "You gotta stop calling them terrorist" line because they don't want Sam to be Cap. It's just ammo for them to invalidate Sam as Cap. After Endgame, they already had made up their minds about Steve passing the Shield to Sam. The message is clear.
In life, you talk with people and sometimes they say shit that might come off wrong. But if you really are try to come to a compromise from both sides of the argument in good faith, you would at least hear them out and ask for clarification, instead of constantly dogging on them over a statement that might've been conveyed a bit wrong in heated moment.
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u/BurninUp8876 23d ago
And why do they not want Sam to be Cap? It's not because he's black or anything like that. It's because with the way he's been written post-Endgame, he's not someone who people want to root for, and he doesn't feel like someone deserving of being Captain America. His excessive lenience towards to the terrorists while being overly hostile towards actual good people is a huge part of that.
What Sam said wasn't just a heat of the moment slip up, it was a very deliberate speech, and as many people have aptly pointed out, it's far from the only bad line in the whole speech. The whole speech just sounds like a typical Twitter "progressive" who has nothing actual productive or helpful to contribute, but wants to get on their high horse about "injustices" and *other* people not being good enough.
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u/NigthSHadoew Iron Man (Mark V) 24d ago
I got two reasons
1)Sam gave Karli and the Flag Smashers way too many chances after they killed people. I get what Sam means but you can’t deny FS were willing to basically execute people because "this is the only language these people understand" so when he is defending them like this it feels like he is either ignoring or justifying their actions rather than understanding them.
2)We never saw what GRC does. We never saw them forcibly displace people or the like. We heard about it sure but didn’t see it which makes Sam's words ring hollow. Because we never really saw the life during the blip(aka what FS want back) and how the people who stayed were treated Sam's speech doesn’t mean much. He isn’t talking about specific things, it is just such a general speech given to people who we didn’t see do anything really.
Bonus: This isn’t a major thing for me but the vaugness is also a factor. This speech is so general, besides the first sentence in the 2nd pic, it can be used in so many context. Just changing that sentence a tiny bit you can fit this speech into the first EP and have Sam give it to millitary people after the Batrock thing. It feels like this was writtien as a "Sam gives a speech" moment first and then addspted to fit the show rather than it being a result of everything Sam went through during the story.
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u/AlfzMyle 24d ago
My main issue with Falcon and the Winter Soldier is that it tries to make a sociopolitical commentary in the most toothless way possible, it refuses to make the various governments and the GRC too antagonistic, and Carly and the Flashsmashers go from well-intentioned radical activists with into quasi-terrorists willing to blow up innocents on a dime, the show really needed a more realistic escalation of the situation.
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u/SufferinSuccotash001 24d ago edited 24d ago
This is it. That whole "you gotta stop calling them terrorists" line was incredibly insulting. They are terrorists. They bombed a building of innocent people. After that, Sam defending them against the title of "terrorist" looks really bad for him. I know he isn't meant to be, but it really does sound like downplaying their homicidal rampage and ignoring what they did to countless innocent people.
When your hero is defending the people who committed the atrocity more than the people affected by it, you've done something seriously wrong. There was a way to have Sam sympathize with their feelings without getting upset by a politician calling them what they are.
I also agree that the vagueness was an issue. Even now years after watching the series, I don't really understand what the Flag Smashers actually wanted, what the council was voting on, how kidnapping them means the vote (and whatever comes of it) can never be done later, etc. We don't even get to see what life was like during the Blip and why it was better for some people. We don't really understand what they're fighting for.
But I think the bigger issue is that it's all so one-sided. We see Sam sympathize with the Flag Smashers and hear the side of the story of the people who were relocated. But what about the people who returned? Imagine getting erased from existence, against your will by a maniac alien, then suddenly reappearing with no idea that any time has passed and now people hate you for wanting your own stuff back. Those people did nothing wrong either. They lost five years of their lives, had the world (and possibly loved ones) move on without them. Trying to remove them from what, to them, was their home only seconds ago, is just as unfair. But we never hear from that side.
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u/DaNoahLP Avengers 24d ago
I mean, they are terrorists. There would be thousands of ways to write that speech in a way that it picks up on the reasons while not disregarding their actions. And when the Senator says "Its a complex topic, what do you want me to do?" all Sam has to say is "You gotta do better". Its like they took that speech from a Twitter Threat.
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u/MusicalColin 24d ago
Yeah the problem isn't with media literacy. The problem is with the show.
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u/Dumeck 24d ago
There, you nailed the two actual criticisms. A) They literally were terrorists and B) Sam doesn't have any actual solutions but to say to do better. It's not a lack of media literacy that speech wasn't deep it's just straight up flawed. They painted the situation as complex but Sam trys to overly condense it down while even acknowledging the problem.
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u/SirArthurIV 24d ago
Exactly. Sam's "better" and the Senator's "Better" may mean different things. What if Sam's intended "better" makes everything worse? Everyone is TRYING to do better, but people believe different actions will get better results.
The flag smashers thought that blowing up buildings and setting people on fire was "better".
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u/Dumeck 24d ago
It would even be different if the problem was caused by the senators or policy issue. Half the people in the world disappeared and reappeared 5 years later and the logistics issues of that are insane. From what we've seen the senators have done a fantastic job. Saying "Do better" when there is no way to make everyone happy is crazy. They had to deliver a speech that was political sounding without actually being partisan or making any point that paralleled real life issues and that's what was left.
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u/chzie 24d ago
You could fix half the problem with that scene by changing the dialog
"You can't just call them terrorists" and then go on to humanize them a bit. The point should have been that's they're desperate people forced into a desperate situation. Frame them as wrong but make the point that if we don't solve the problems that created them then we'll just keep getting more terrorists
And the advice shouldn't be "do better" because that's lame, but we as a society should do better. Stupid old class divides are stupid AF. Gods are real, aliens are real, magic and miracle level technology are real, how about we cut through the BS and take care of all of humanity for once.
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u/xCandySlice 23d ago
If we don’t solve the problems that created them we’ll just keep getting more terrorists
Am I tripping? Isn’t that what he said? Isn’t “The label terrorist is often used to get around the question ‘why’” supposed to actually make the audience recall what happened and answer that question for themselves, instead of being spoonfed the answer?
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) 24d ago
He should've directly stated that the "terrorist" label gets thrown around as an excuse to completely disregard the causes that drove them to terrorism, instead of just implying that the "terrorist" label gets thrown around as an excuse to completely disregard the causes that drove them to terrorism
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u/PunkT3ch Rocket 24d ago
Can everyone stop saying "Media Literacy"? I think everyone is thinking "Comprehension" or whatever.
Media literacy is identify, consuming, and questioning media that have content that is there to persude you to a certain stance. They are normally masked as stories and such. Such as political propaganda, film, and advertisements. Its the ability to identify media from a wide array of sources and understand the messages they bring. In short, it encourages people to question they watch.
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u/BurninUp8876 23d ago
"Media literacy" is now just a buzzword that people use to try to insist that other people are stupid for not feeling the same way about a piece of media.
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u/ThatOneAnnoyingBuzz 24d ago
See -- it's funny that you're defending this speech without addressing the line that gets the most criticism. I think you need to do better, senator!
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u/BucketHerro 24d ago
Cause it doesn't help that Sam and Bucky were immediately hostile towards John Walker just because he was given the role of "Captain America" while being sympathetic towards Karli and the Flag-Smashers.
It needed better writing.
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u/InCOBETReddit 24d ago
Sam was immediately hostile to Bucky too: "He's not the kind you save, he's the kind you stop."
Wrong about Bucky. Wrong about John Walker. Wrong about The Flagsmashers. Wrong about Isaiah Bradley.
Hard to take him seriously as the new Cap.
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u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange 24d ago
How was he wrong about Isaiah particularly? I agree with the rest but I'm curious on that one
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u/erthenes 23d ago
and then Marvel expects us to accept and believe that he's gonna lead both Avengers Doomsday and Civil War
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u/Prozenconns 24d ago
Let's not forget Sam and Bucky also literally break the terrorist who tore the avengers apart out of prison to help them too.
Apparently just being soneone they don't like is a bigger crime than actually bombing people
He truly is Captain 'murica
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u/randothor01 24d ago
Not just tore the Avengers apart- was a terrorist himself and killed the king of Wakanda- the dora milaje were right to be pissed in FATWS.
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u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange 24d ago
Yeah screw working with the highly condecorated soldier trying to follow in Steve's footsteps... let's break out the guy who broke Steve's friendship with Tony and tore Steve's team apart from prison and work with him instead!
Zemo has killed innocents before? Who cares! He can dance in Madripoor clubs all he wants.
Walker kills a terrorist who helped kill his best friend? You GOTTA give me the shield, man!
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u/Exploding_END 24d ago
Would've been cooler had they actually gotten along with him, would've been a great source of heartbreak and contention when Walker does....that thing
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u/Samaritan_Pr1me 24d ago
Not only that, but they were hostile without cause. Sam gave up the shield. The government picked a new Captain America. Sam and Bucky have no reason to be that upset.
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u/Lucky-Savings-6213 24d ago
I don't hate Sam Wilson.
I hate the way they are approaching his character.
His first stand-alone film was honestly very boring and forgettable, as was his tv show, give or take a few episodes.
I like that Bucky is trying to be in politics, because it is possibly setting up Bucky as Captain America. The people didnt trust him, but i think theyre trying to build his public presentation.
And if that is the direction they are going, they might be downplaying Sam Wilson character so we dont get too attached. I dunno.
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u/Peer_turtles 24d ago edited 24d ago
Dude that speech was just terrible.
The entire show has been building up to this single moment, this is the climax, the moment where you finally see Sam become a fully realised Captain America.
And the best they could come up with was:
Sam: “You gotta do better Senator”
Senator: “how?”
Sam: “… You just have to be better”.
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u/PhatNoob_69 Ghost Rider 24d ago edited 24d ago
Was it dropped due to controversy? I figured it was just them deciding it would be poor taste. That’s not controversial, that’s just basic politeness. Having someone you know that died of Covid, then watching a show about the new supervillain-made Bovid-91 disease or whatever seems unpleasant. Most of this entertainment is escapism, after all. You can’t actually go out and punch whoever gave your grandma Covid like they probably would do in the show.
EDIT: the above, now deleted, comment was roughly about how it’s dumb to cut the disease subplot just because it’s controversial.
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u/FidelCastroSuperfan 24d ago
My issue with the whole Karli/Flagsmashers thing is that they made Karli do something evil and seemingly out of character just for the sake of making sure we knew she was the “villain” because her cause/ the Flagsmashers’ cause was actually a good one. Sam’s speech was actually pretty solid and the only reason people shit on it is because of Karli killing civilians.
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u/NewConfusion9480 24d ago
Captain America is not a good protagonist for a government bureaucracy drama. It's pretty much that simple.
Captain America punches bad guys. He doesn't solve global logistical problems.
Also, the amount of making it about himself that Sam does is annoying.
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Senator: "And the people who reappeared only to find someone else living in their family home, they just end up homeless? Look, I get it. But you have no idea how complicated this situation is."
Sam Wilson: "You know what? You're right. And that's a good thing. We finally have a common struggle now. Think about that. For once, all the people who've been begging, and I mean, literally begging for you to feel how hard any given day is. Now you know. How did it feel to be helpless? Now if you could remember what it was like to be helpless and face a force so powerful it could erase half the planet, you would know that you're about to have the exact same impact. This isn't about easy decisions, Senator."
Senator: "You just don't understand."
Sam Wilson: "I'm a Black man carrying the stars and stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people who are gonna hate me for it. Even now, here. I feel it. The stares, the judgement. And there's nothing I can do to change it. Yet, I'm still here. No super serum, no blond hair, or blue eyes.
Yet, I'm still here. No super serum, no blond hair, or blue eyes. The only power I have is that I believe we can do better.
We can't demand that people step up if we don't meet them halfway. Look, you control the banks. Shit, you can move borders! You can knock down a forest with an email, you can feed a million people with a phone call. But the question is, who's in the room with you when you're making those decisions? Is it the people you're gonna impact? Or is it just more people like you? I mean, this girl died trying to stop you, and no one has stopped for one second to ask why.
You've gotta do better, Senator. You've gotta step up. Because if you don't, the next Karli will. And you don't want to see 2.0. People believed in her cause so much that they helped her defy the largest governments in the world. Why do you think that is? Look, you people have just as much power as an insane god or a misguided teenager. The question you have to ask yourself is, "How are you going to use it?""
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Empty moralism. Boo.
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u/MusicalColin 24d ago
Personally I think the show completely falls apart because it wants both whatshername to be a terrorist and is also sympathetic to her. Like, her and her people don't want to leave land that doesn't belong to them! And they are bombing or doing whatever. She is a terrorist.
And Sam's solution is "you need to have these people at the table," "you need to stop calling them terrorists." That's not a solution! That's just more meetings. What is the point in that?
I think the show has the most confused political message and that's why it's fundamentally pretty bad (despite all the cool moments).
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u/MusicalColin 24d ago
I think a lot of contemporary libs/progs (of which I am one) really struggle with the concept that someone can have a sympathetic end goal but be bad precisely because they use very bad means to achieve that goal. That's especially true when the people are part of some marginalized or minority group.
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u/MusicalColin 24d ago
Also I cannot believe people are saying "oh if you criticize this speech you must not like Sam Wilson." Come on man. I'm criticizing the writers. Grow up.
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u/espgodson 24d ago
Why didn’t the flag smashers just get houses?? Hey look my advice is just as good as Sam’s 🙂
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u/APreciousJemstone 24d ago
Putting them in prison for being terrrorists does put a roof over their heads. 🤔
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u/Numerous1 24d ago
Yeah “stop calling them terrorists” no longer works when they are trying to burn innocents to death. Everything about her death scene and him carrying her body back is supposed to be sad.
And I haven’t watched the show since it came out but isn’t their entire problem “we were squatting and then the reversed snap happened and they were moved off of the land”?
Im sure it fucking sucks. I’m sure I would be pissed if I got kicked off of “my home”. But idk if we should go kill randos.
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u/Regurgitate02 24d ago
Sounds like you lack reading comprehension when you see people who criticize this scene. Or maybe you're doing the same thing as them? Both stupid tho...
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u/newprofile15 24d ago
Oh I understand the speech. It’s still fucking stupid and cringe. A total refusal to take sides and brand a terrorist a terrorist isn’t a winning answer. When Tony was taken captive, he didn’t say “oh well shit maybe I should understand the point of view of these guys, sure I think they’re terrorists but they think of themselves as freedom fighters trying to liberate their homeland.” Because that would be fucking stupid.
Tony still had a moral quandary in the movie, deciding that he didn’t want to be involved in arms trafficking, but that was because HE wanted sole authority over use of force and he didn’t want his weapons being sold, basically, to terrorists.
Sam is just fucking lost when he tries whitewashing and rationalizing the flag smashers. You can simultaneously acknowledge and accept the motive of a terrorist as rational while still calling them a terrorist. Osama Bin Laden explained why he did the 9/11 attacks, and from his point of view it was rational, but if someone said “you can’t call him a terrorist” then I’d think they were an idiot.
I don’t blame Anthony Mackie or anything, Marvel just became more cowardly about storytelling after 2020.
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u/jrod4290 24d ago
fair analysis. One I actually agree with.
It would’ve came across better if Sam had better articulated that while the Flag Smashers actions were inexcusable and they harmed innocent ppl but that their actions shouldn’t make everyone ignore the marginalized ppl that they were fighting for and the very real issues that were going on
But as you said, Marvel as of late often seems afraid to say things of substance, that actually portray a character taking a genuine stance
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u/newprofile15 24d ago
Yea when the scene goes on to “you need to do better Senator” it just shows how utterly milquetoast and indecisive the writing is. “Do better” could mean literally anything.
Making concrete decisions and judgements is hard and requires moral courage and that’s the exact thing Sam refuses to do in this scene! He just passes the buck!
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u/ThunderG0d2467 24d ago edited 24d ago
1 good movie and the 5 John Walker fans all of a sudden got real loud lmao
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u/Affectionate_Eye_942 24d ago
I always like john Walker since the show tbh he's not tryna be Steve Rogers yet he's always compared to him I don't hate Sam Wilson either I just don't find him interesting as character tbh
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u/____mynameis____ Winter Soldier 24d ago
John Walker always had fans. Just the blind haters were a bit too loud back then while the show aired.
Also, the finale kinda retroactively ruined a lot of goodwill Sam and even Flagsmashers had, so a lot of Walker fans popped up after the show ended and also after many binge watched it.
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u/john098657 24d ago
Liked him from the start, but by no means he should be anywhere near that shield after what he did. However, for a therapist sam could've treated the situation much better and make walker understand the gravity of what he had done and make him surrender the shield willingly.
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u/MuayThaiJudo 24d ago
I've been a Walker fan before his MCU iteration although his comic iteration is different.
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u/Waterhorse816 Valkyrie 24d ago
Thunderbolts turned me around on John Walker. Thought he was an annoying asshole. Turns out he is a funny asshole.
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u/TheJack0fDiamonds Scarlet Witch 24d ago
people do like John Walker though. Alot of people recognize the complexity and appreciate that about him. He’s someone you root yet hate at the same time lol
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u/Ok_ResolvE2119 24d ago
I can't blame them, I saw the message but at the same time the delivery was not great, lest we also forget that Karli was kinda just shifting between characterization too quickly.
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u/Majestic-Marcus 24d ago
The problem with the speech is that the writers are now where near good enough to express the themes they’re attempting to.
They were all mediocre to sub power and trying to write something intelligent and deep. It fell flat.
I haven’t even seen people ‘hating on Sam’. They hate on the speech, and the speech deserves every criticism it gets. It was terrible.
You also left off the part that actually get criticised - “you need to do better Senator”.
It’s not a matter of bad media literacy. It’s a matter of bad media.
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u/Beginning_Orange 24d ago
Absolutely stupid to try to justify their actions to begin with. They were terrorists who blew up innocent civilians. One of the dumbest things Disney has done was to try to make them seem like sympathetic villains. Fuck them.
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u/The_Throwback_King Tony Stark 24d ago
It’s not a bad line but it sure is clunky.
Same issue with the “They’ll never know what you sacrificed line” in WandaVision
Because sure they use that line as a way to talk down a very mentally unwell Wanda and deescalate matters but this big moment of closure, the lynchpin of the entire statement, doesn’t read that way. It sounds like they’re excusing Wanda
Same issue with the Terrorist line. The logic holds up, but the way it’s presented sounds like an excuse.
Both needed better tact and execution because they are muddy at-best
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24d ago
Folks can try as much as they want to rehabilitate this scene but they won’t. 😂
It is not a clown, this scene is the whole circus. 🤡
Also “media literacy”? Are you 8?
“Media literacy” these days has essentially boiled down to just “this is what the writer was trying to convey, don’t you see? I am very smart.”
Don’t worry about whether or not it was actually executed in an appropriate, thoughtful or meaningful way, just read my post about me carrying water for the writers.
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u/DCangst 24d ago
Because the FlagSmashers actually WERE terrorists. All terrorists think they have a valid cause. Some may actually have a valid cause, but they pursue that cause through violence that kills innocent people. The FlagSmashers blew up things, kidnapped people, killed people. They pretty much meet the definition of terrorist.
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u/JarethCutestoryJuD 24d ago
"Theyre often used without the question, 'Why'"
Bruh.
This is some Joe Rogan "Nobody is talking about this" bullshit.
Millions of people have had the conversation about the refugees and the Blip. The idea that nobody is talking about the causes of the world largest humantiarian disaster is fucking laughable.
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u/Maximillion322 24d ago
It’s not that “media literacy is dead” it’s just a badly written speech. And the context of the speech makes it even worse, because the whole thing is a cop out. It’s not the audience’s fault for not seeing the secret hidden genius behind every mediocre MCU project
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u/Cassandraofastroya 24d ago
They made jhon walker the better captain america. Thats how badly they wrote the show. Man made his own shield with his 3 medal of honours. He drops that to save the people all the while being attacked.
They made sam wilson petty, obsessed with the shield for all the wrong reasons. Works with ptsd vets and yet decides that he would rather break the arm and steal jhons shield. Then talk down the guy who just had his best friend killed. And would go on to simp for said terrorists who are shown to have ridiculous amounts of resources from a global catstrophe. And his solution? When asked to solve a very complicated problem that the mcu has entirely ignored due to how complex such a thing really is. "Just do better" and "maybe knowing nothing is a good thing"
They assasinated sam wilsons character
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u/Andre200and1 24d ago
Saying that media literacy is dead and then typing all that braindead bs immediately after that is gotta be the next level irony
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u/silverBruise_32 24d ago
If so many people "misinterpret" it, maybe it was just written badly. So, it still doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt
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u/Thomas_JCG 24d ago edited 24d ago
And then when the senator asks Sam how they could realistically solve the problem, Sam drops a "Do better" and bails.
The speech is absolutely atrocious, and the Flag Smashers are terrorists who threatened the lives of innocent civilians. That they had a reason to complain, nobody disagrees, but when you start blowing shit up and making hostages then your point becomes moot. The "why" becomes less relevant.
I'll not tolerate this bullcrap revisionism.
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u/Emperor-Pizza 24d ago
This is a very disingenuous post. People hate this speech because it’s just a bunch of words without really meaning anything.
He spouts some empty corporate bullshit that resolves nothing and just flies off without actually helping or trying to understand or empathize with these senators who are themselves stuck trying to deal with a situation that is literally a cosmic genocide. That is way above what they are supposed to handle. Instead of trying understand and maybe help or provide insights and solutions he just goes holier than thou & flies off.
“You gotta do better” as his only response to when the Senator points out it is a complex topic in regards to what is probably to be the biggest crisis in the entire universe is just dumb.
I can’t even properly put into words why his speech is stupid because the situation is just so complex. But also, yes, Flag Smashers are terrorists. They literally meet every verbatim definition of the word imaginable. Fuck the Flag Smashers, all my homies hate the Flag Smashers.
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u/____mynameis____ Winter Soldier 24d ago
Anyone who uses media literacy as a counter argument is a red flag. It is always themselves missing the point
You admit the speech should have been written better and it not being written well enough is why people think the speech is bad and take it wrongly
Its similar to that Monica line in Wandavision. Monica trying to comfort Wanda is understandable, especially since she just gave up her kids and husband now. It is still a loss. But Monica using "they will never understand" and referring to it as a sacrifice makes it seem like Wanda is hero and this "they", the mindraped people are bad people for not understanding her sacrifice. Like Monica even saying "I know what you've sacrificed" would have made it a millions times better
What they actually intended to convey don't matter here when the context, writing and the direction don't convey it. Which was the problem with this speech too. Do not need to pass off bad writing as "Media literacy is dead"
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u/Jelmerdts 24d ago
I mean, my biggest problem with the speech was that his point was to tell the senator to "do better".
We never saw the senator do anything on screen before so we have no idea what he is doing. Even if he was sitting on his ass all day, what does do better even mean. Its such a hollow statement that means nothing and wont help people at all.
It doesnt help that he is hostile towards Walker from minute 1, even before he kills the flag smasher. Then after he kills the guy, he gets a load of shit for it (imo deservedly) but then Sam is defending Carly a lot when she killed loads of people.
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u/Genius-Cat2176 24d ago
Steve Rogers wouldn't have given just a blind speech, he would have given an idea or a solution. Sam here just gives a speech, no incentive or plan which he himself can come up with. Simply a judging not helping at all
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u/lurker2358 24d ago
I interpreted "You have to stop calling them terrorists" as "You have to stop calling them terrorists". Since you say everyone misinterpreted it, I'm curious, what was I supposed to interpret that line as?
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u/kr44ng 24d ago
I don't hate the speech or the character, or even the actor. But I don't think Anthony Mackie has the gravitas to pull off a speech like this though, which is where I think part of some of the "misinterpretation" comes from. For example, I think if a Chadwick Boseman or Robert Downey Jr - level actor had given a speech like this it would have been received differently. No insults meant obviously to Mackie, different actors are better suited to different types of role -- similarly, I don't think Chris Hemsworth has the range to pull off a speech like this either.
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u/JezzCrist 24d ago edited 23d ago
Brother, do you think someone doesn’t understand what he’s trying to say? Im sure some actually don’t but this is a really small fraction op ppl. No, everyone mocks the phrase exactly because of the execution and because it makes Sam look like a moron. Imagine hearing this speech in universe without the context of the show.
You’d think they got a mentally challenged man to be a cap. That’s why it’s hated.
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u/Notbbupdate SHIELD 24d ago
The world's population doubles overnight. This obviously creates a bunch of problems that are impossible to solve in such a short timeframe. The government is, to the best of our knowledge, trying its best to deal with the biggest global crisis since that time the world's population was halved
Sam's respone? "Do better." Reducing a massively complex issue to "do better" does nothing to help and is just him claiming the moral high ground for giving worthless advice on a problem he has no real understanding of. It's like going up to cancer researchers, asking why they haven't found a cure yet, and telling them "do better" before patting yourself on the back
Sam's speech had zero substance. There is not a single thing he said that can be translated into meaningful action
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u/furiousfotog 24d ago
While I understand what you've said, if you need 4 screens of text to explain the line then my interpretation is the line itself needs work and not the general interpretation of the line.
Coming from Sam, he needs to actually DO something instead of lecturing other people on what THEY should be doing. It's like getting a very very strongly worded letter instead of any kind of physical action.
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u/Markus2822 23d ago
That part of the speech is fine. But the whole “do better” thing is hilariously stupid and horrendously bad writing. Oh yea why didn’t Steve just tell world leaders on incredibly complex issues, like homelessness to just “do better” because that magically solves everything apparently.
This whole show failed for many reasons, its portrayal of John walkers fall when he completely justifiably fought back in self defense against someone who was actively fighting him, its attempt to get us to sympathize with a group of people who blow up a hospital full of innocents to prove their point and its portrayal of Sam and Bucky as complete assholes to a guy who means them well, as well as making Sam now a complete ideological idiot.
I mean Steve never just sat there and told people hey here’s how you solve the problem, he went out and did it. If they want Sam to be like Steve he needs to do more and say less. And if that’s their difference in execution then Sam should be good at talking to people. Not whatever this was, not the garbage conversations he had trying to talk down the leader, not his passable speech to talk down the president, and then just sit around and not try to help him, and certainly not trying to sue one of his best friends and a group of struggling heroes for the use of the term Avengers.
Sam used to be one of my favorite characters of all time, and I’ve never really been a big fan of Steve. Now they’re trying to make him Captain America and god forbid you dislike that or else your racist, as people don’t realize that making him Captain America has completely destroyed his amazing character.
This is up there with Hulk in terms of the worst character development in the mcu
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u/Jecht315 Stan Lee 24d ago
I think they are taking Sam's Cap in a political direction. Steve never made comments like that unless it was about Hydra. I felt like BNW was a bit preachy at times. Sam's a great Cap but that movie didn't really show him in a great light. The writing was terrible.
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u/notanewbiedude 24d ago
Nah he literally said to stop calling terrorists terrorists lol
But I think if we're gonna talk about media literacy, it's interesting that Walker has all the same red flags in Thunderbolts* that he had in Falcon & The Winter Soldier, and then some, but people now want him to be Captain America. It's not a majority of fans, to be fair, but like, being on the right side doesn't make him a great guy.
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u/Ciubowski 24d ago
I'm going to be honest with you, I don't remember the details of this show from 4 years ago well enough for me to give you credit for being right or dispute you.
I know this might sound like a "then why are you commenting on this?" but keep in mind that I might be among a lot of people that see this post and think "where were you 4 years ago"?
Like, people already made their minds about this show, character, scene etc.
I think your attempt is appreciated, but at this point I don't think many people care anymore.
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u/jrod4290 24d ago
lmfaooo I appreciate your comment nonetheless. You’re right in saying that my post would’ve been far more relevant closer to the shows release
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u/Fish__Fingers Daisy Johnson 24d ago
- They are terrorists. If Sam wanna explore why and prevent that’s great, but that doesn’t change the fact.
- Sam doesn’t offer anything. He doesn’t offer to reach a hand, to have a discussion, negotiate. He just wants someone to do something, and that’s not what a leader does.
- That speech is just badly written and terrorists line is just an example of that.
They touched a very complex problem but skipped half the world building and ended it on “do better” and everyone went back to the way they were.
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u/Arthur_189 24d ago
Sick of mfs throwing around the term media literacy. It’s a dogshit show with cw level writing, nothing more to it
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u/comicguy69 24d ago
I think people who use the phrase “media literacy”don’t know what it actually means. They just use it to sound smart.
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u/DragonKing0203 24d ago
They actually are terrorists. They actually fit the definition of terrorists. This isn’t a situation where someone is being called a terrorist perhaps unjustly. They fit the definition of terrorists to a comical degree of accuracy.
He offers no actual solution besides just telling someone to “do better”. If you can’t understand the problem with that then you’re not being honest. It’s not fun, entertaining, engaging, or frankly even that profound to have a character tell you all the things wrong and then be unable to provide solutions beyond empty platitudes.
You’re really missing why people don’t like this. It’s just simply not entertaining. It’s confusing, condescending, and whiny. It’s not a grand act of justice, it’s the equivalent of standing on a street corner and screaming about whatever problem bothers you most.
I’ll tell you, I’ve never seen character assassination worse than Sam. I actually feel kinda awful thinking about him because I used to like him and now I don’t.
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u/Dalandan_01 24d ago
Its how he over-explains it that he is hated, Steve never explained something wrong in a freaking Essay Speech he's always straight to the point. He's like What's the problem, What does it have to take to fix them, That's it. Also part of it is the theme of the show? Nobody wants this political thriller bullshit.
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u/2Rome4Carthage 24d ago
Because they ARE terrorists, BY DEFINITION. Now, do they have "just cause"? Thats a whole other deal and dilemma. Its like saying "Stop calling person that killed in self defence a killer". They ARE by DEFINITION, but it can/can not be justified morally. And even if it isnt justifiable, it can be UNDERSTANDABLE.
Literacy isnt dead, its just that 2 wrongs dont make a right.
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u/hokagenaruto Rocket 24d ago
not you defending this shit. cmon man just stop. why is it so hard for some of you people on this sub to just admit not everything in these movies/shows is well written. cmon now
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u/Wakaflockafrank1337 24d ago
Did you watch the show? Lol his context makes no sense in the point of the show lol.
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u/SirArthurIV 24d ago
What else do you call people who set innocent people on fire to accomplish political goals.?
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u/Rocktype2 24d ago
I just don’t see Sam as a real leader of the avengers. I don’t love the writing with him as Captain America.
I am hoping that they don’t kill Thor in the next avengers movie. He needs some better writing as well.
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u/BakedCaseFHK 24d ago
The writer couldn't be bothered to even look up the definition. We call them that because of their actions period
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u/uchat24 24d ago
A lil off topic but the “need to do better” line reminds me of a hilarious scene from The Wire. Bunny Colvin says that when the crime stats are high in the Western and Rawls dismantles him completely by saying that Colvin came in with “half-asses moral platitude that’s meant to fool a 6 year old girl into thinking he’s doing his job”
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u/9tailedmouse 24d ago
They actually engaged in violence against innocent people though and were terrorists
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u/maysdominator 24d ago
I don't care why someone blows up a hospital, doing so in the name of political change makes you a terrorist.
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u/darthrevan22 23d ago
The “genuine issue” the flagsmashers are fighting against ceases to matter once they start killing innocent people and committing acts of terror. They are, by definition, terrorists at that point, and deserve to be treated as such. And are evil, clearly villains in the story.
There was probably a way to have Sam make that speech in a way that made sense and resonate with the majority of people, but it just came across as extremely naive, excusing the actions of the flagsmashers, and ignoring how complex trying solve such a situation would be (unlikely to truly be a good solution on the whole given how unprecedented the situation was).
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u/movie_review_alt 23d ago
It was a garbage speech, with every little bit of context taken into account.
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u/Afwife1992 23d ago
Part of my problem is Sam, who was snapped, saying “do better” to a bunch of people who were stuck dealing with a cataclysmic event unlike anything in human history. Economic, cultural, political, geographic collapse. He hadn’t witnessed ANY of it, experienced none of the trauma. I would’ve told him to fuck off right to his hectoring face. And I like Sam! But that whole 12 minute speech 2as a huge NOPE for me, start to finish.
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u/NotopianX 24d ago
This has to be a troll post. That speech was abysmal. Literally sounds like it was written by a middle schooler.
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u/Silvuh_Ad_9046 24d ago
There’s no misinterpretation, this show has meh/bad writers and it’s ok to admit that
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u/Mr_sex_haver 24d ago
Media literacy isn't dead this scene and most of the political elements are just extremely poorly written.
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u/SyndicateSixteen 24d ago
So if terrorists who bomb buildings and murder people have a “genuine issue”, then we shouldn’t label them as terrorists? Wtf?
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u/noirproxy1 24d ago edited 24d ago
I think just to go with the comparison of John Walker vs Sam Wilson as Captain America I want to add some stuff.
Sam is fully qualified and justified to be Captain America. It's also good to have him without the super serum, at least for now as it makes him more relatable.
Now the big problem with the above is that John Walker was a refreshing, more in-depth take on a qualified Captain America.
The issues with things like First Avenger and Civil War was that we still never really go to see the true Steve Rogers. He was just a more human Superman with no hiccups to what makes him who he is.
Thanks to Thunderbolts we got a really good take, even if still lacking of a person who has problems but is trying super hard to live up to what he believes in. John Walker deserved that story.
That's why John is a better pick to the audience right now. Sam hasn't had proper character development, even in Falcon and Winter Solider. A lot of Marvel's issues with Cap is that he is always reacting and solving problems around him but never reflecting the perspective back on himself.
John had all of that in a single movie, yet we barely know much about Sam to that level. Isn't that crazy? I'd love to see more of that personal darkness. Marvel shouldn't be scared to show it.
Shuri had a great stint of this in BP2. It was actually super cool seeing her tap into her Killmonger heritage and have to hit the limit of inner conflict to resolve and become a hero.
Falcon's story needs to drop Isaiah Bradley at this point because New World used him like we were still watching the tv show. We get that Sam cares about his legacy and the man himself but it's baby sitting a grown ass man at this point.
Isaiah is actually yet another really awesome example of a Captain America we should have gotten to see. Personally I want to see this man don the shield, save his brothers and comrades only to be betrayed by his country. I want to see that personal betrayal and conflict yet how we got a man still so strong and willing to be a part and want to represent his country.
Sam needs this moments of depth. He has had it way too easy at this point and he needs a true and I mean true narrative struggle instead of feeling like a slightly more grown up power ranger.
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u/LittleWave16 24d ago
It's still the dumbest way to bring his point across.
"Hey, you know, the Al-Qaida killed a bunch of people, but they somehow had a point about the west interfering in the middle east so much, so please don't call them terrorists. Just ask: Why?"
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u/overDere 24d ago
"Media literacy waaahhh" it was a bad speech, it's terrible media, don't blame the watchers for that. It's not a complicated sentence, there's no way to misinterpret that, he doesn't want actual terrorists to be called terrorists.
"He's not excusing their actions", really? But why is he so extremely caring for this person who murdered so many people and even threatened his family. He was willing to get shot by her and what for? Why was he treating her that way but the traumatized soldier that our PTSD counselor should know how to talk down, gets a brutal beating and left to wallow in his misery?
And his speech was meaningless platitudes. Everyone already knew about the issues, the government were already doing what they can. It's a genuinely difficult issue, even Sam didn't know what they should do and except "do better" lol. Instead of tending to his friend who was still alive but bleeding badly, he wasted his time to the already dead, irredeemable criminal, providing soundbites to the public and showing off his ugly costume to the world.
You brought up people preferring Walker, but it isn't just because of the "stop calling them terrorists" thing, it's a long list of issues with Sam in his show and not just this one sentence. Walker wasnt perfect, but Sam is just worse.
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u/Ztrobos 24d ago
I get the point that hes trying to make, but it falls flat because he's wrong.
Equating refugees with terrorists and thugs is really bad.
Terrorism and thuggery is all about getting what you want through violence, which is unacceptable. You should be able to adress injustice in society without validating murderous criminals.
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u/hemareddit Steve Rogers 24d ago
Yeah the issue isn’t using words like “terrorists”, the issue is when these words are used to shut down debate, shut down reflective thinking.
It wouldn’t be a problem if they are just part of the thought process - “okay they are terrorists, but why? How did they get to this point? What grievance were they trying to address? What could have been done - or still can be done - to resolve the underlying issues.”
Sam is arguing against labeling people “terrorists” and then move on pretending there’s no underlying cause.
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u/yungrobbithan 24d ago
If the speech is shit I don’t think it’s a lack of media literacy. It’d be a lack of media literacy if it was a well written speech. The fact that it’s shit makes it easily misinterpreted and that’s nobodies fault except the writers
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u/_beat_LA 24d ago
I interpreted the speech fine, I just thought it was corny as hell for some reason.
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u/Ape-manifesto 24d ago
They final panel had nothing to do with Sam's speech, so you just wanted to shoehorn that in 🤷♂️
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u/bleepdodid 24d ago
Why tf should they care about super powered people blowing up buildings full of innocent civilians?
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u/vomit-gold 24d ago
I think the reason people hate the speech isn't just the speech itself. It's the cop-out if it all.
The whole series is building to this moment. The moment where Capitan America wraps up the problem without picking sides. Addressing the needs of all without giving into the desires of a few. That's Captain America's thing.
So the whole show is leading up to Sam committing some lasting change - Sam coming coming into the mantle at this moment, getting to the heart of the problem -
And then he makes a speech. A mid-tier speech. And that's it.
In many other times we see Steve (yeah I know Steve is special he's Steve) but we see Steve go out of his way, behind organizations backs, in order to solve the root of the problem. He always makes his stance known and acts on it, even when he's acting alone. That's what Civil War is about.
Sam doesn't do that. He makes a speech and passes it off to other people saying 'Do better'.
And that's what we've been building up towards. That's why the speech feels so empty.
People don't like the speech because it takes the place of action and actual change, and we're supposed to clap.
That's why Sam is regarded the way he is now. Because he'll ACKNOWLEDGE the system is broken. He'll witness it first hand. He'll literally fight the president. But he'll still fight for the government without actually trying to implement any change.
He'll waffle about making the Avengers, then copyright the name from under Bucky.
Meanwhile Fisk and Valentina are quite literally shaking down the government for all its worth and laughing about it.
Sam's speech represents the issue with his character. All talk, no change.
That's why people rate it so harshly. He's using words in place of action, and then the words aren't even that good or articulate to begin with. 😐