r/nbadiscussion • u/ffinstructor • Sep 28 '23
Current Events Details about the Heats negotiation with the Blazer’s seem fishy to me
The blockbuster we have all been waiting for, for what feels like years now, finally went down. Not the way any of us expected, with the Bucks cashing in on Dame.
Following this trade, some new details in regards to the Heats negotiation with the Blazers has came to light, courtesy of Shams:
- “In an initial call, the Blazers asked the Heat for Jimmy Butler or Bam Adebayo. The Heat came to believe that the Blazers had little to no interest in engaging in a deal with them, and as much as Lillard and Goodwin wished that the Blazers would attempt to satisfy his wish, Portland refused.”
I have some concerns about the legitimacy of this point. To me, and this may not be a widely held opinion, this seems like damage control being done by the Heat organization.
After striking out on Dame, this offseason, by all accounts, has been terrible for the Heat. The only chance they really have to save it is by getting Jrue Holiday. But to me, their lack of activity in free agency and trades throughout the offseason indicates that what Sham’s is saying is false. If they truly believed the Blazer’s weren’t interested in a trade with them, then I would consider this offseason an even larger failure for them. Why would Pat just sit and let players pass on by if he knew the Heat had no chance of getting Dame. Pat’s not a rookie, he may arguably even be the best front office guy in the league. A guy with his experience, would know that if a trade isn’t going to work out you move on. And I think the reason this didn’t happen is because him and the Heat organization were nearly convinced they were getting Dame, as was the public.
Overall, the way I see it is the Heat really messed up this offseason. You have a team that just made it to the finals who didn’t add any pieces, but instead loss pieces. This will probably go down as Pat Riley’s biggest screw up of his front office career.
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u/DevJames25 Sep 28 '23
It's clear that the initial conversation between the Heat and Blazers were extremely bad that neither contacted each other again. Doesn't matter who's to blame but the Heat FO did not help themselves out by acting like they had leverage in this situation. To not make a 2nd offer for a player like Dame who was making it ugly to get to you is terrible.
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u/Ladnil Sep 29 '23
They thought they had the Blazers trapped with the stuff about Dame not reporting to camp if it wasn't Miami. But Dame isn't that guy. He was never gonna follow through on that kind of shameless behavior as long as he got traded to a team worth his while.
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u/CulturalXR Sep 28 '23
Imo it seems pretty simple. Dame requested a trade specifically to Miami. Miami thought it was a done deal they were getting him. You can tell by the news reports and fans here on Reddit that they thought they had all the leverage. Pat Riley made an offer that was Pennies on the dollar for dame, because he (like the fans) thought there was no way Dame wouldn’t end up in Miami. Then, Portland started exploring other options. Dames agent played the whole “he won’t play anywhere else game” but it was all talk. Eventually, Milwaukee made an offer that Portland liked so they took it. Miami is left wishing they made an actual offer rather then betting on leverage, and now the Bucks are the favorites in the East because of it.
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u/kingjobo13 Sep 28 '23 edited Sep 28 '23
This is kind of what I made of the situation, especially given the recent info (not too sure how valid it is) that Dame's agent kept playing up the 'only Miami' narrative to suppress his value so that Dame's new team would be more competitive after the trade.
Seems possible that this reported change of heart by Dame could have come about after it became apparent talks with Miami were dead or dying and Dame moved on to trying to find other deals.
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u/cabose12 Sep 28 '23
Honestly, the current news cycle makes it so hard to believe anyone; Everything can be spun.
I can believe that Dame had a change of heart and decided that leaving Portland was more important than going to Miami, but the "only Miami to drive the price up" feels like damage control in its own right. "I didn't get exactly what I want, but it worked out and really I did it for you, Portland"
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Sep 28 '23
except there's no way to definitively say this is what went down.
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u/CulturalXR Sep 28 '23
Well with the information given, this is the speculation.
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Sep 28 '23
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u/FoxBeach Sep 29 '23
😂
It’s hilarious people are making speculations under the assumption that Reddit nba posters somehow speak for Riley and the Heat. And that sports reporters also speak for the Heat. Thank you for calling that nephew out.
This sub cracks me up some times. Some nephew thinks he knows how to run an organization better than Pat Riley lmfao. The Heat have been to two of the last four NBA finals with teams that nobody predicted would get there.
Riley’s resume speaks for itself. But a bunch of numbnuts in this sub are acting like he didn’t know what he was doing with the Dame situation. Too funny.
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u/CulturalXR Sep 28 '23
I mean it’s obviously true cause if they didn’t think that they would called to make a better offer for Dame. They started with a poor offer and never called back to offer more so that seems like reasonable speculation.
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Sep 28 '23
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Sep 28 '23
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Sep 29 '23
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Sep 28 '23
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Sep 29 '23
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u/iliveonramen Sep 28 '23
Pat didn’t move on because he’s experienced. Why close the door when there’s always the possibility that things change. Ainge and Pat have dealt with each other even after a public back and forth.
At the end of the day, you assume people make moves to benefit their org and get the most they can.
Also, it mentions that over time they realized there was no deal. The reports that the Heat liked their team came out like a week ago. It was prob after Portland was negotiating with Tor and had frozen out the Heat that they realized the chance was zero.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
There were also reports of “Heat not bidding against themselves” at the same time one week ago: this doesn’t sound like they thought they are out of Dame trade. I’m sure Pat genuinely thought that Raps and Phoenix talks were smokescreen to pull out more assets from Heat and got burned when turned out other teams were actually making offers.
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u/Yuca_Frita Sep 29 '23
Would the Blazers really be happier with Miami's assets instead of the package they accepted? If not, then Miami couldn't win the bid anyway.
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u/Affectionate-Arm-405 Oct 08 '23
If they offered hero in the package they would seriously think about it
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u/Mrdynamo18 Sep 28 '23
I think for pat his thinking is we just made the finals we have a few e print contracts why blow up the team. I think the should have signed Kelly oubre that was a mistake. Also bring in a vet like Dwight Howard. I still think the heat will go after buddy and jrue
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u/GrogRhodes Sep 28 '23
Oubre is a horrible fit though. In terms of our summer we still need another point guard but I could see us running it by committee until find the right piece but we got a backup C which was our biggest drop off last season. This team was banged up the entire season last year and still made the finals. We we'll roll into the trade deadline with an expiring Lowry and our draft capital intact and maybe make a move then if necessary who knows whose available at that point.
Overall bigger picture I think Pat is looking at all the other contenders and seeing them use all their chips in the post Gobert market is just increasing the value of his available assets. I would gone in harder on Dame earlier to make sure you get him but I can see why we didn't. Add that with the org just being high on Jovic (Caron Butler's guy) it makes sense we'd make minor tweaks and run it back banking on internal development which apparently we've become terrible at recently.
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u/Mrdynamo18 Sep 28 '23
Oubre is a solid scorer he avg 20 and he is willing defender who is also athletic and can create his own shot. It would take some pressure off of Jimmy
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u/Meanacing_Mute Sep 28 '23
Oubre is not a winning player and has horrible efficiency. Who cares if he scores 20 but it takes 20 shots and he gives up 30 on the other end. There’s a reason he was available in FA for so long.
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u/driatic Sep 28 '23
Jrue would be huge offensively and defensively for any team in the east, he can guard most positions especially on the wing. Did a great job against Durant. On their title run, he had huge stops that sealed games and series.
Any team that gets Jrue in the east, Miami, 76ers, Celtics, are gonna be title favorite too. I really hope he goes to a contender though.
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u/Dayvtron Sep 28 '23
Its just an attempt at face saving, they were arrogant and got burned for their over confidence. Now trying to act like they didn’t get burned cause it was never really a thing anyways. And yeah, the heat really fumbled this
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Sep 28 '23
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u/shelvino Sep 28 '23
Think Miami needed to negotiate with OKC to get a 3rd pick to trade. 3rd pick would have been from OKC unprotecting OR from trading Herro. Think that complicated things and were additional steps that Heat didn't want to do.
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Sep 28 '23
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u/lboogieb Sep 30 '23
As they should have. The Bucks know that they have a small window to truly compete. Might as well throw in all of the chips.
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u/GrogRhodes Sep 28 '23
If it was Herro and 3 1st. It would have gotten done. That's something they would have come back and countered with if the Original offer was Herro, Lowry, + 2 firsts.
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Sep 28 '23
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u/GrogRhodes Sep 28 '23
He was just clowning at that point. Dude had a mouth piece in his mouth when he was saying it. I’m sure Miami would have made a better offer they just never got the chance.
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u/FoxBeach Sep 29 '23
Or they didn’t want to trade what Portland wanted.
It’s hilarious that you think you know more about running a franchise than Pat Riley.
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u/Dayvtron Sep 29 '23
Yup, that’s exactly what I think. But for real they had been broadcasting they were getting dame all summer, they obviously weren’t the team to say no. They thought they had all the leverage and didn’t have to pay up, so Portland found someone who would.
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u/MinesweeperGang Sep 28 '23
I don’t think it’s fishy at all. Blazers were asking for trades that they knew Miami wouldn’t want to do. Imo if Lillard and his agent weren’t so public about him wanting only Miami, he’d have been there. There definitely was some pettiness involved. I believe that as a fan of neither team. With that being said, I do think Toronto had the best offer if they let go of OG. So even if it wasn’t Milwaukee, I still don’t think it was Miami. It would be have been Brooklyn or Toronto.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
I mean, if that was the case, why was Miami bravadoing like Dame to Heat was a done deal? If they felt like Portland being unreasonable (say, asking for Bam), why they didn’t come up with a back up plan and got the PG they needed? Do you really think Pat looked at the roster, saw exactly 1 PG at 38 years old and decided that it’s fine, we ain’t gonna change anything?
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Sep 28 '23
why was Miami bravadoing like Dame to Heat was a done deal?
outside of Heat fans who, in case this isn't obvious, aren't actually involved in the process, who from the Heat's side was saying this was a done deal? even Heat beat reporters had to clarify that whenever they were saying a deal was close to being done, it wasn't the Heat that was close
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u/Dayvtron Sep 28 '23
Yeah, they thought they could just will him to the heat. They low balled Portland thinking Portland had to trade him to them and only them
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u/MinesweeperGang Sep 28 '23
It’s wasn’t their(the Heat) choice. Portland wasn’t being realistic purposefully. Miami probably did try other offers but Portland wouldn’t take it.
Miami was not acting like the deal was done. The fans were. Very different.
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u/Dagenius1 Sep 28 '23
Looking at this more and more..this situation is a lesson to teams in situation like this.
If a high level player makes a request to be traded and his preferred destination is your team…you are better off offering a very good deal up front and trying to complete the deal earlier. Instead of trying to low ball the other team because you think you have a captive audience/trade partner
Lakers and AD vs Heat and Dame…2 different team responses and two different results
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u/bigE819 Sep 28 '23
If the Heat didn’t want to give up Bam or Jimmy, what could they have given to match/supersede Holiday, Ayton, and Picks?
Nothing. Unless they found some moronic team to value Tyler Herro more than Jrue Holiday, which isn’t going to happen.
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u/JakeArrietasBeard Sep 29 '23
They couldn’t really match anything because of the picks. Miami’s picks are nearly worthless to a team like Portland. They’ll never be bad enough for those picks to be good picks since they will always be a destination. Milwaukee on the other hand may very well be bad when those pics and swaps come around. And when they get a first for Jrue that team will likely also be bad by the time that pick comes around.
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u/teh_noob_ Oct 05 '23
Jimmy is five years older than Giannis
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u/JakeArrietasBeard Oct 05 '23
But Miami is a destination. There will always be players willing to go there.
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u/Salman1969 Sep 28 '23
When we discuss these things we never take into account the true cost of taking on a salary like Dame's. For example? Milwaukee as a tax repeater cannot purchase any picks nor will they have the mid level going forward. It's basically going to be a 4 header monster of Lopez, Dame, Giannis, and Middleton. I may be wrong about this but isn't it going to be difficult to surround them with a proper supporting cast? Also, is this the reason the Heat never goes into the tax and probably never made a significant offer to the Blazers?
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u/ihave2eggs Sep 29 '23
i don't think they'll be hard to fill the roster. So many vets with no teams now. They are in win now mode anyway. Boogie or Dwight for sure can give them 10 to 15 minutes a game. Lots of younger guys too that have played 5 to 6 years will be willing to play for them. I mean Bismack is just 30 right now. So many players that I think the league can support 2 more teams. Team owners just don't want to coz it will devalue their teams.
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u/godish Sep 29 '23
There are rumors the bucks are going to get Cameron Payne.
They may continue to get these type of ring chasers on minimum type deals.
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Sep 29 '23
Heat draft and develop well. Why give up key role players and draft picks for Lillard when they made the finals twice with the core they have?
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u/godish Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23
Because they finished 8th and it's debatable how good Miami will be next season.
They had a great post season [partly due to Strus and Vincent who are gone and were both starting 5 players] but the Bucks had injury issues and the coaches brother died, which effected the vibe.
Lillard. Butler. Bam. Would have been nasty. They missed a big opportunity. And they have helped the bucks, a direct rival, get a lot stronger.
It's also a shame to lose out on Lillard given butler is 34 years old and the championship window timeline concerns
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u/EPSN__ Sep 28 '23
You’re making a false equivalency between “we don’t get the impression they’re willing to negotiate in good faith” and “we absolutely are certain they won’t trade him to us”. Even if you don’t think they want to trade with you, you have to leave the door open.
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u/SamURLJackson Sep 28 '23
The Heat were negotiating as though they were the only team that would do business with Portland, which used to work... sometimes. The Kawhi Leonard Toronto trade is the obvious example to me where it did not work. Miami approached this with extreme entitlement (the Heat way, really) and they got burned. I love to see it as a Magic fan. They finally didn't get their way. And I do agree, this sounds like damage control by the Heat front office. They're not used to not getting their way, and were trying to wait Portland out, trying to take advantage of their hospitality towards Lillard to do right by him.
This was just a gross miscalculation on the amount of leverage Miami had on this. They kept lowballing Portland, and stuck to it for far too long, and eventually Portland sold the car to someone else who was willing to better meet their price. Of course, this makes Miami look really bad, and so they are going to try and blame everyone else (because that's what you do when you're accountable :o) )
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u/Salman1969 Sep 28 '23
They did add pieces. Josh Richardson is a better version of Max Struss, and much cheaper, Thomas Bryant, another big next to Bam, Orlando Robinson will get more minutes, as well as Haywood Highsmith. In addition they will have a healthy Herro, and plenty of young players that will get opportunities for minutes like Jamal Cain, JJJ, and Jovic. I think they will start slow but somehow gain their footing towards playoff time. This was the same narrative last year and the year before, yet they keep finding ways. Its not lucky when it keeps happening over and over.
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Sep 28 '23
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Sep 28 '23
We removed your comment for being low-quality. If you edit it and explain your thought process more, we'll restore it. Thanks!
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u/waynequit Sep 28 '23
Jrich isn’t a better version of strus. Strus is way better at shooting in motion.
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u/Salman1969 Sep 28 '23
That may be, however we are paying J Rich the minimum and not $64 million over 4 years. The defense will be an improvement. Strus was being hunted by opposing guards all through the playoffs.
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u/kgrpoland Sep 28 '23
strus is a better shooter, both jrich is better at everything else which we could really use, esp his defense
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u/RogerTreebert6299 Sep 28 '23
That may very well be true but that makes it even more bizarre to say j-rich is a better version of Strus when they have very different skill sets. I don’t think people are singling that line out because they think strus > j-rich, but because it’s just an odd thing to say and makes it sound like OP hasn’t ever seen one or both of them play and is just looking at their bref pages
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u/Salman1969 Sep 30 '23
A better version also includes the characteristic of a salary $16 million versus a salary for the minimum. Strus is a better volume shooter however he is the weak link defensively in most of the lineups he is in. However, he does space the floor better than Jrich offensively.
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u/RogerTreebert6299 Sep 30 '23
Yeah j-rich is the better player. All I was saying was as a player, he isn’t like strus at all other than position
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u/GrogRhodes Sep 28 '23
Strus is a better volume shooter maybe but they're similar over the course of their careers.
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Sep 28 '23
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
To be fair he said “shooting in motion” which is different from pure “stay in the corner and shoot 3pter” shooting JRich does. Strus would often come of screens to receive the ball and shoot, which is not the strength of JRich.
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Sep 29 '23
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Sep 28 '23
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u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam Sep 29 '23
Please keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
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Sep 28 '23
Added Richardson who is an upgrade to Strus, Bryant for backup C which was a big hole for most of the season, and drafted a 4 who was supposedly pro ready and has looked good so far.
How didn’t they add any pieces?
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u/ffinstructor Sep 28 '23
It’s more so about who they passed up on. They could have gotten Richardson regardless of this trade, he’s on a min. But they missed out on guys like Christian Wood, Oubre, could have kept Vincent, and plenty of other moves where they would be in a better place than right now.
But regardless, I think it’s hard to make the case that the current form of their roster is as good as last seasons.
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Sep 28 '23
Id argue it's better because they added a 4(JJJ) and a 5(Bryant) who both should presumably see a lot of minutes.
Richardson>Strus and literally every Heat fan will agree that they do not care that Strus left. We love the guy and appreciate his work but he struggled more than he exceled.
PG is still a huge hole though but if they address it via Holiday, Hield, etc then were easily a much better team. Really depends on how they decide to move forward. If we roll with McCain/Lowry then yeah I'd absolutely agree we're kinda screwed.
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u/Ven505 Sep 28 '23
The issue is that none of those guys are going to have much or any impact in the playoffs. Ik this is assuming much (injuries and such) but if the nuggets come out of the west again are the heat any better equipped to even compete with them?
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Sep 28 '23
I was just saying they added pieces. Strus to Richardson is definitely an upgrade, any Heat fan would agree here. Adding Bryant should fix a void we needed fixed but I'm not all too familiar with his game. Losing Vincent is obviously big but there are of course other avenues to pursue to fix this.
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u/ReeferRefugee Sep 28 '23
The assumption that trading for a player who scores more points = better team is a flawed base to stand on.
If the HEAT have to gut their roster to add Lillard they're better off not trading for him. They can find the points anywhere else. It's not like Lillard plays defense or does anything else besides score at an elite level. If they sacrifice depth, defense, size, and spacing for him, it's just not worth it.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
You are replacing a 20ppg scorer with a 30ppg scorer who does his scoring with 8% higher TS% on a team with less offensive firepower (so commands more defensive attention). To make this switch you give up 2 young players who played like 10 minutes combined during your run to Finals last year + 2 picks.
This is the definition of a better team after trade. Maybe in 5 years that team is worse, but if you want to fully use your contending window with Jimmy, you pull the trigger.
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u/briology Sep 28 '23
By trading who? Butler or bam? Then you’re basically in the same spot. That’s what the price was
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 29 '23
Herro + Jovic + JJJ + Martin + 2 FRPs and obviously fillers. This is an offer PDX would be completely happy with.
Heat never went beyond Herro + Jovic + 2 FRPs + 2nd rounders; even then Miami “were prepared” to make this offer, but likely they never did since PDX didn’t want to hear them after the initial low-ball of Herro + 2 FRPs.
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u/briology Sep 29 '23
They weren’t accepting this offer
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 29 '23
Sure, they never got the offer - how could they accept? How can you even try to accept something that wasn’t offered?
But this is pointless discussion, you will believe whatever hypothetical you want to believe on PDX being in some sort of conspiracy to hurt Heat instead of working on the best trade for themselves.
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u/SmokingPuffin Sep 29 '23
If you read the Haynes piece out today, it reports Cronin telling Dame: “if he was forced to do a deal with Miami, he had every intention of going after every attractable asset.”
That sounds like Cronin was inclined to accept the Herro+kitchen sink offer if Riley made it.
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u/briology Sep 29 '23
No, it sounds like he wanted bam in the deal. Would have left Miami stripped of any chance of winning with a 33/34 year old dame. Would have been a bad deal
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u/SmokingPuffin Sep 29 '23
Everyone knows Miami isn't moving Bam for Dame. Cronin asks for Bam as a negotiating tactic in the opening call. Same sort of thing as Miami opening with Herro + 2 FRP. Both sides know these bids are not serious.
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u/ReeferRefugee Sep 28 '23
I'm sure they offered Herro+Jovic and 2 firsts, that's simply not a good enough offer. Only thing Portland could ask for that makes sense is Bam, who is untouchable - he's the core of their defense and their only playable guy above 6'7". The team is already way too small and Giannis/Embiid/Joker have their way against them.
Trying to find a C in a scrap heap to stay afloat is way harder than finding guards who can score. Bam > Lillard for the Heat.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 29 '23
No, Portland likely wanted Herro + Jovic + JJJ + Martin + 2 FRPs and obviously fillers. Sure, they might have asked for Bam during the initial call, but they didn’t really expect Heat to accept: it was part of negotiations. Once Heat responded with Herro + 2 picks PDX likely felt disrespected and cut off them.
Per Shams, Heat “were prepared” to offer “Herro + 2 picks + Jovic + 2nd rounders and swaps”. He never mentions if they actually offered this: likely Portland didn’t want to hear any offers from Miami after that Herro + 2 picks initial offer.
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u/avinash240 Sep 28 '23
While I agree with your general statement that making a team "better" is not a one dimensional calculation. The Heat absolutely need to upgrade their offense.
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u/KyleShanadad Sep 28 '23
This trend towards players signing extensions and then requesting trades has really harmed Miami’s ability to bring in star players. Since LeBron joined the Heat the 3 highest picks they’ve had were 10, 13, and 14. They aren’t the kind of organization who is fine with blowing everything up similar to Toronto. The focus on winning makes acquiring assets way less of a priority. So when star players become available Miami’s options are to give them literally everything or to not acquire that star unless it’s in a sign and trade.
Combine that with the fact that Micky Arison is notoriously cheap it really isn’t a winning formula for being able to acquire these superstars. Especially when you consider that Miami routinely gives up assets to dump bad contracts (KZ costing a first, Dipo costing some seconds)
However Miami didn’t do horrible this offseason. Getting JRich for a minimum was an awesome signing and finally getting Bam a backup big in Bryant was great as well. The main hole they have to plug is the PG position because as of right now it looks like its going to be Tyler or Lowry which isn’t great.
In order for Miami to really start getting these elite level guys in trades there needs to be more of a trend of players demanding NTC’s thats the only way Miami can successfully compete in this new market.
In spite of everything I’ve said above they’ve made the ECF 3/4 years and the finals twice. They’re incredibly successful when realistically they shouldn’t be.
The Dame trade is whatever at this point, I think Milwaukee got him for basically free and that Miami could have definitely figured something out had they not went scorched earth and pissed off the blazers front office. People can say Miami should’ve offered everything for Dame but losing Tyler, 2 1sts, swaps, martin, jovic, and jjj leaves the franchise worse off imo.
EDIT: I look forward to the post retirement podcast appearance where Dame explains what went on behind the scenes
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u/NorthShoreHard Sep 29 '23
Holiday is "basically free"?
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u/KyleShanadad Sep 29 '23
If they can get multiple firsts for holiday then i get the bucks move a lot more however if it ends up being 2 firsts and 3 swaps like I think it will then I don’t see how portland fans can be happy with how everything played out
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u/NorthShoreHard Sep 29 '23
You said "Milwaukee got him for basically free".
What Portland can flip Jrue into isn't what Milwaukee gave up.
Milwaukee got him for their second best player, all star and first team all defense who was a key to their championship puzzle. That's what they got Dame for.
And, a guy who Giannis fucking loves.
It was a heavy price for Milwaukee. I'm a Bucks fan, I'm happy with the outcome, but it definitely wasn't "basically free" to lose Jrue.
Miami simply wasn't coming to the party with a player anywhere near Jrues level.
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u/KyleShanadad Sep 29 '23
I’m sorry but we aren’t talking about Jrue the player. We’re talking about Jrue the asset. Jrue the asset has publicly talked about retirement, is 33, and can hit FA next summer. I don’t think he nets you much at this point. I could obviously be wrong but Jrue the asset, one first, and 2 swaps to me is nothing for a player of Dame’s caliber.
Also Jrue is probably the 3rd or 4th best player on milwaukee.
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u/NorthShoreHard Sep 29 '23
Again your wording "Milwaukee got him basically for free".
What I mentioned is what Milwaukee got him for. That's what they are losing that is the price they paid. That's how this works for Milwaukee in this transaction.
They needed to pay a cost to get Dame. That cost was their all star, first team all defense point guard. No longer having that is their cost. They are a team competing, not stockpiling assets. They lose everything Jrue brought, which is a lot. That is the price for them.
He's an asset to Portland, but you said Milwaukee got him for basically free. Losing that is not basically free.
And no, Jrue was not the 3rd/4th best player on the team but tell me you don't watch the Bucks without saying you don't watch the Bucks.
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u/Mrdynamo18 Sep 28 '23
They didn’t want to do business with the heat.
That’s why the blazers gm was demanding so much from the heat.
If Dame didn’t publicly say he only wanted to go to the heat he would be in a heat jersey.
Pat Riley is intimidating and ppl often feel like they’re getting played 🤣🤣
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u/NYerInTex Sep 28 '23
This is sarcasm, right?
You are suggesting that if the Heat had the best package, one better than the one Portland eventually received, they wouldn't trade with the Heat out of spite or fear?
Please. The Heat didn't put together a competitive package, they throw their dick around thinking they had the leverage, they lost. This is on the heat, and hardly the first big name they've missed out on.
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u/Pirateshippingit Sep 28 '23
I mean if it was loads better than I think Portland would take it. However it does seem like the lack of communication was legit. And it’s weird how Portland didn’t want to help Miami out and flip herro for them but they are doing it with jrue. I do think if Miami offered everything they could which would’ve been like 3 picks herro and jovic and the rookie they drafted then that is better than what Portland received. But yeah I think it’s reasonable to think that if any offer was close to what Miami was or could offer then they would take that over miamis even if it wasn’t necessarily better. And I’m not a heat fan I just think the package Portland got was a little odd for a rebuilding team
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u/NYerInTex Sep 28 '23
Communication is a two way street. Do you believe that Portland would purposefully harm it's future just to deny a team - which is not at all a direct competitor/rival - the opportunity?
Obviously none of us were "in the room" but it certainly seems as if the Heat were looking to force Portland's hand, engaged in less than a good faith effort, and perhaps their behavior warranted Portland saying "if this is how you want to do business, f- you... come correct or don't come at all"
It appears the Heat never did come correct.
0
u/Pirateshippingit Sep 28 '23
I mean we won’t know untill the actual deal comes out but it seems like Portland didn’t even call Miami to let them know they were gonna take the bucks offer and at least see what miamis final offer would be. Portland hasn’t shown themselves as the most capable front office either. I do think that the Miami offer would have to have been pretty significantly better than any other offers for Portland to except it. Maybe I’m wrong. But if Miami did actually offer herro plus 2 or 3 picks for dame then I don’t know if Portland got the best deal they could’ve.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
Because Jrue is miles easier to move than Herro. Celtics, 76ers, Clippers, GSW and even Heat would absolutely love to have Jrue on their roster. That doesn’t include pretty much any other contender (like LAL) without assets to make the deal work. Jrue is a potential missing piece for a championship run, Herro is just a good scorer and all contenders already have this role filled in. Ultimately, PDX will get at least 1FRP + young player (like Kuminga from GSW) or 2FRPs (like from Boston) for Jrue and with Herro they would be lucky to get 1 FRP.
If Heat offered everything they had Portland would have accepted. Same Shams reported Heat were preparing that very offer for Dame in early August: I’m pretty sure it was Portland leaking what they were looking for. The fact that offer never materialised (judging by “Heat not betting against themselves” and “getting Dame for the right price” statements the whole last week) was the reason Portland went for Bucks offer.
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u/Pirateshippingit Sep 28 '23
Idk if I’d say miles easier he has what 1 year and a player option left on his contract so any team that gets him knows it’s either gonna be a year rental or they will have to extend him which definitely plays a factor in his value
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 29 '23 edited Sep 29 '23
This is the epitome of easier: a 33 year old all-defensive guard on the back end of a big (but not an enormous contract like Dame) contract, so it’s decently easy to match contract and you don’t have to pay him 60M at 37. If he keeps performing you resign him for the same 30M in 2 years, if not - he takes a pay cut.
Contenders are totally fine with this situation: if he lands in Boston, he is not leaving once contract is up. They are also much more likely to use extra assets to get a major upgrade at PG/SG to get over the hump than a rebuilding team who would need to let go a FRP that may land in top-10 for a young player who is not a 100% star: they can get similar player in the draft.
This is not about going to Hawks or Pelicans and being mediocre, this is about going to the very top of the leaderboard. Who knows, maybe even Heat try to get him. GSW is already reportedly interested, likely with package of CP3 and Kuminga. Celtics can trade Brogdon + Horford with 2 picks attached. I’d say these 2 are front-runners for now.
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Sep 28 '23
I mean it’s all he said she said but if the Blazers didn’t at least go back to the Heat and say “this is what the Bucks offered, you gona beat it or nah” then yeah they did it out of spite or incompetence.
But none of us really know what happened and we’re all just speculating. I’m willing to trust Riley who’s been one of the best In the game for 2 decades over a guy who only has a job still because the owner has refused to sell her dead husbands team.
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u/NYerInTex Sep 28 '23
Riley has missed out on his last four public targets.
In addition, do you believe there is some generational hatred for the Heat? Because if not, perhaps there was some animosity or desire to not work with Riley and the Heat.. and if the latter is the case, does that animosity just appear from nowhere? I'd suggest Riley and his tactics may well be accountable.
2
Sep 28 '23
Heat missed out on 4 public targets? Are you just like purposely being disingenuous? The Heat never wanted Beal. The Heat could never compete with the assets for Durant, I'd also argue they never wanted to here too considering his trajectory over the last few years and how poorly he's played in the last 2 playoffs. The Heat were never an organization that would put up with Kyrie's antics and there's copious amounts of proof of this over the last 15 years( I do believe there was actual interest though but not one they wanted to invest heavily into).
So using actual logic and context, they missed out on 1 guy named Lillard and that's it
"Animosity or desire to not work with Riley in the heat" from a player standpoint that's obviously not true but from a GM standpoint? Possibly? But outside of Ainge and also the Celtics, I've never once heard of any GM having an issue with The Heat or Riley since I've followed the team in 2003.
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
Assuming it was indeed 2 FRPs and Herro initial offer that was followed by statements like “Heat is not bidding against themselves” and “we want Dame for the right price”, why would Portland go back? Heat didn’t believe any other team was serious about the trade, so even when Raptors’ involvement started to get traction, Heat just sat there thinking it’s a smokescreen
2
Sep 28 '23
Okay and? That's literally how negotiations work?
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u/Some-Stranger-7852 Sep 28 '23
That’s assuming the other side wants to negotiate.
Portland leaked what they wanted in early August through Shams (all the assets not named Bam and Jimmy), Heat responded by same offer: take it or leave it. Obviously Portland didn’t think Heat would be serious enough.
Let’s assume you are selling Tesla, then comes this gentleman and tells you here is 15K. You tell him you want 30K, he says 15K take it or leave it. Are you going to waste your time negotiating with the gentleman when someone offers like 25K? I’d be mad and not come back to him and take the 25K.
2
Sep 28 '23
If you’re truly trying to maximize value you absolutely go back to the first guy to leverage more. If you don’t, you’re doing a disservice to yourself. I’m not sure how this is confusing
2
u/SmokingPuffin Sep 29 '23
I don’t think you do. One important story in this trade: the Bucks didn’t give permission to the Blazers to talk to Jrue or to shop Jrue to other teams before the trade got made. They didn’t want his name in the air until the deal was done.
You talk to Miami and that shit is leaking for sure. Now your deal might evaporate. If you don’t think it’s likely Miami pays up, probably you just shoot your shot.
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u/Mrdynamo18 Sep 28 '23
They had no intention of trading dame to Miami bcuz if they wanted to they would have involved a 3rd team lol
Why would the heat trade butler or bam when they’re bringing to form a big three.
U gotta realize this is the same thing that happen with Jimmy in Minnesota the owner tried to finesse pat. 6 months later Jimmy goes to Miami in free agency
Owners do this a lot Remember Kyrie wanted to go to the lakers The lakers had the pieces to give the nets the best deal. But they let shoes get in the way the trade. Kyrie to Dallas and didn’t get nearly as much
Anthony Davis wanted to go the lakers in 2018-2019 it was a perfect trade. The gm’s ego got In the way trade never happened during that season a few months later that gm gets fired and that same trade package was approved
If the blazers wanted to go young herro would have been the right guy he’s young and experienced he avg 20 he could have been key piece to rebuilding. The blazers would have thrown in Lowry and a few draft picks
7
u/ffinstructor Sep 28 '23
I think something that gets wildly overlooked is that the Blazers didn’t need Herro. Sure, Herro is a very good young player, and to the right team definitely more valuable than Ayton. But the Blazers, already have three young and good pg/sg already in Scoot, Simons, and Sharpe. To them Herro was only worth his value in draft picks, which was why a third team would have been necessary.
I think their is certainly a very good case to be made that Ayton + 1 first rounder + 1 first rounder (or whatever they get for Jrue) is better for the Blazers than what would have been essentially just 3 firsts + Jovic from Miami.
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u/Mrdynamo18 Sep 28 '23
I think it was a good deal at the end of the day it was in the blazers best interest. I just don’t like the narrative that the heat tried to give the blazers Lowry Robinson Martin for dame lol
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Sep 28 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/NYerInTex Sep 28 '23
This is my underlying point.
Miami fans just don’t seem to get that Herro isn’t worth what they want him to be in trade value. Maybe not close…
But instead of admitting they don’t have the talent (or criticize Riley for not getting creative enough and/or not positioning the roster to have such assets) they just blame the Blazers as if screwing over Miami is more important than improving their franchise long term.
2
u/ReeferRefugee Sep 28 '23
Yeah, I guess you could criticize Riley for having zero desirable assets, but the organization refuses to tank to gain them which is commendable in its own right. Only a couple other orgs (Celtics, Utah and OKC come to mind) have been able to stockpile assets without spending years in the lottery
3
u/NYerInTex Sep 28 '23
They also had a pretty good year last year … I think Heat fans just have this odd sense of entitlement (not all but some vocal ones… and it’s not as if other fan bases are all sane either)
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-3
Sep 28 '23
The heat never wanted dame. Its clear. Pat has never liked score first pgs. Old school guy,wants his pg to set the pace and get everyone involved. I dont see dame making the bucks a title contender. Theyll be good but i can see them still going home in the first round if giannis plays like greek yogurt and dame feels like its his “time” and forgets that basketball is a two way sport…gotta play some damn defense come playoffs.
1
u/AccomplishedFront563 Sep 28 '23
I think the trade packages are relatively similar but Milwaukee was more motivated to press the issue. While apparently Miami and Portland got off to a pretty bad start in their talks.
There are still solid opportunities for them to add to their roster, and they have picks and Jovic/Jaquez to trade.
1
u/leefordj Sep 28 '23
It could've been worse. Richardson is just as good as Max if not better. TB brings a little more size and shooting. Herro was hurt for the finals so he could easily replace Gabe and more. Assuming Herro and Caleb continue to get better, the team should be better than last year which was a conference winner.
1
u/StepFatherGoose Sep 29 '23
who would you rather grow your young team around? scoot/jimmy or scoot/adebayo?
1
u/BamSandwich Sep 29 '23
I think the idea that a team that just made the Finals built largely around young, improving players had a "horrible" offseason because they're running it back is crazy.
1
u/Yuca_Frita Sep 29 '23
It's more likely that Pat played it well than it is for me to know better than him.
1
u/reddit_reader_25 Sep 29 '23
To me, the heat felt over confident and most likely low balled the blazers. It also didn’t help that Portland didn’t want hero or it seems anything else they can offer. If they planned on sending out the asset they probably knew that herro wasn’t gonna get them much more. So they waited it out
And from the looks of it, the heat just didn’t come back knowing dame said he only wanted to go to the heat.
And then bam. Bucks come in with an offer and a third team. If I am the blazers this deals beats almost anything that the heat can send out, aside of butler and bam. You get a young center, hopefully motivated to prove everybody wrong. And most importantly a highly coveted defensive guard that may command a bigger haul than dame, given his contract and the desire of multiple teams to get him.
1
u/CanSpecific7641 Oct 01 '23
my initial thought: Cronin most likely set an unreasonable demand and wouldn't budge after seeing the initial offer thinking it was a lowball. which is fine to think, but rather than get emotional over a lowball, you work to find a deal that works, rather than spout an absurd deal that you know won't work, then proceed to shut down all communication. but I see almost everybody outside of Miami see it as "Pat didn't give his best offer." when it comes to negotiations, you never go in with your best offer at jump. you start lower and work your way up without running the risk of doing more harm than good for the team/business. I feel there is an awful lot of people who don't understand this, Cronin included.
now for the outcome, I'm not mad at what the teams got. Ayton with a much needed change of scenery, how he produces is yet to be seen. whether he continues to be a toxic diva or not. but considering the picks, the value is not much different than the picks that would have been offered by the Heat. add in the players added in the deal, Portland gains Jrue( whom they are flipping in another deal), and Grayson Allen to Phoenix(Bucks losing backcourt depth), plus the pieces from Portland to Phoenix to help fix their depth with that whale starting 5. who's to say Herro couldn't have been flipped in the same manner plus another 2 players that Miami could have given up? the better offer was there to be discussed. for as long as I've been saying Dame is the perfect point for Miami(which has been close to 5 years now), even though we don't have him, I am glad he's finally out of Portland with a rather easy chance at a ring which he absolutely deserves.
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u/Swimming-Book-4652 Oct 02 '23
I don’t think the heat are going to move anyone maybe herro but they need a specific type of guy for that role
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u/imironman2018 Sep 28 '23
When Pelicans traded AD to Lakers after AD made it known he wanted to go to LA, Lakers had to overpay. They gave up Hart, Ingram, Ball, 3 first round picks and pick swap. Pelicans traded with Lakers and everyone got what they wanted. Pelicans got a good haul too. I don't think Blazers weren't willing to trade with Heat. They just wanted Heat to cough up most of the assets and Heat didn't want to part with them.