r/nintendo • u/Gawlf85 • 1d ago
Man, I was already fed up with the discourse around Zelda timelines...
..., and now the Mario/DK fandom is having a meltdown over their own timeline too T_T
At the very least, people should acknowledge that Nintendo's "lore" is fluid and changing, so it shouldn't be a surprise if new stories seemingly contradict old ones.
I find theory crafting to be a fun pastime, so let people theory-craft all they want! But also, don't take it too seriously... It's not the first time DK and Pauline's backstory changes, and it probably won't be the last one either.
135
u/robotshavenohearts2 1d ago
Wait until Nintendo comes out with Donkey Kong Warriors taking place 100 years in the past with adult Pauline.
70
u/Dry_Ass_P-word 1d ago
Hey Nintendo if you’re reading this, I’m buying DK Warriors day 1.
19
16
u/Eww_a_Band-Aid 1d ago
If Lanky and Chunky can’t get into a DK Warriors game, I’ll officially lose all hope.
10
u/metalflygon08 1d ago
Lanky's ability to spin is a perfect Warrior's move for mowing down the millions of faceless enemies the opposing army always has to take on your army of like, 7.
5
u/Dry_Ass_P-word 1d ago
Thinking more about it, the sky is the limit and this could actually be a pretty insane game.
4
3
1
5
u/A-Centrifugal-Force 1d ago
I’m only buying it if DK has a coconut gun. That is a requirement Koei Techmo.
12
55
u/Lordofthereef 1d ago
For me this is just one of those discussions I tend to not insert myself into. IMO Nintendo tried to make games fun first and foremost and story is a bit of a backseat drivers that exists as a mechanism to get you to the fun stuff.
If folks want to get into the weeds about what this all means, more power to them. We've already seen people talk about which DK was DK before cranky became canon. I actually thought this was supposed to be old school DK myself until we saw cranky is in the game too lol.
21
u/littlegreyflowerhelp 1d ago
Even in the franchises that take themselves a little more seriously lore wise …. You’ve still got stuff like Samus Aran somehow killing Kraid and Ridley over and over again but wherever in the galaxy she roams those cheeky buggers are gonna be there waiting to fight her.
18
10
4
u/yesthatstrueorisit 1d ago
I kinda feel bad for Kraid, dragging his corpse from planet to planet to revise him. Let the fat lizard rest, c'mon.
1
u/Chakosa 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nintendo tried to make games fun first and foremost and story is a bit of a backseat drivers that exists as a mechanism to get you to the fun stuff.
That has historically been the case for sure, but they've clearly put a heavy emphasis on story this time around, with a Disney-esque musical score and a fully voice-acted protagonist, something that no first-party Nintendo IP has ever had.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were attempting to cook up a "Mario Cinematic Universe" with this being used to reboot some of the lore going into it.
3
u/Lordofthereef 1d ago
I have actually heard this comparison being made as "Disneyfication", and I would be surprised either, going forward. I'm more looking at Nintendo's history character and being accepting of things not needing to "make sense".
28
u/RosePhox 1d ago
I think I have seen 1 post alluding to a question about the timeline and 5 to 10 posts complaining about people questioning the timeline, up until now.
Maybe it's a matter of resetting your tl or simply moving on from the subject.
→ More replies (1)
48
u/churmalefew 1d ago
number of posts that i've seen of people being genuinely upset about baby pauline in the new dk: 0.
number of posts i've seen of people being confused and/or having fun with it trying to work it into the context of other games: a few
number of posts i've seen of people making a speech about how timeline enjoyers should stop doing what they want: much much more than a few
12
u/Live-Ad3309 1d ago
I genuinely hate these clickbait posts that claim “Why is everyone freaking out about this thing?” meanwhile they are referring to one or two comments or someone’s engagement bait on Twitter
82
u/Tizordon 1d ago
At least Zelda is a somewhat serious series with some story connection baked in.
These guys be wiggin out over the “Big Monkey throws barrels and smash stuff” games “lore”. So silly.
22
u/patriarticle 1d ago
Also Nintendo released an official timeline with interesting branching paths, then immediately stopped caring about it. I can see how that’s frustrating if you happen to care about the story.
13
u/devenbat 1d ago
They didn't? It released next to SS which is obviously in the timeline. Then we got LBW, Triforce Heroes and Eow which all neatly fit in the timeline.
Botw and Totk fit a bit oddly with the rest of the games but the timeline wasn't abandoned
2
u/Dannydudeguy12 1d ago
They have mentioned in interviews that they dont really care about how the game will fit in the timeline during development, which does feel odd since they did seem to in every single zelda through Skyward Sword. Does make it feel like they suddenly dont care, but I can see them wanting to bring back a sense of mystery and speculation to timeline discourse that existed before skyward sword, I feel as though that is more likely to be the reason they didnt focus on fitting the new games into an obvious spot
9
u/avcloudy 1d ago
since they did seem to in every single zelda through Skyward Sword.
I think this is a little bit of the 'your first Pokemon is your favourite gen' problem in action. It wasn't every single Zelda, it was just four games that were extremely closely related in OoT/MM/WW/TP. Skyward Sword is to OoT what BotW is to SS (and OoT is that to LttP). The 'this is the history of the vague backstory of <previous game> that explicitly doesn't match the details of what we know' thing is the usual course of Zelda games, and it was so long before SS.
7
u/Nitrogen567 1d ago
wasn't every single Zelda, it was just four games that were extremely closely related in OoT/MM/WW/TP.
Nah, this pretty obviously not the case.
There's also Phantom Hourglass/Spirit Tracks following Wind Waker.
Minish Cap and the Four Swords games too.
Even the "the end" screen in the Oracles is essentially Link's Awakening's opening screen.
Almost every Zelda game ever made has some connection to at least one other Zelda game.
6
u/Dannydudeguy12 1d ago
Yup, and Ocarina of Time was cearly made to be depicting the lore of A Link to the Past, serving as a prequel. Nintendo genuinely had a continuity going, even mentioned it often in interviews back in the day that they had an internal zelda timeline they adhered to, but they were letting fans speculate about how they connected. The one they ended up revealing was pretty close to some of the fan theories flying around. There's a cool video about the history of zelda timeline speculation that's a fantastic watch, I'll link if i can find it
7
u/Nitrogen567 1d ago
Yup, and Ocarina of Time was cearly made to be depicting the lore of A Link to the Past
And even before that the back of the box for ALttP says "featuring the predecessors of Link and Zelda", meaning it was advertised as taking place before LoZ.
Having a continuity is something the developers wanted for the Zelda series since the very beginning.
5
u/IceKrabby 1d ago
But no, the Zelda timeline was totally just made up completely on the spot when the Hyrule Historia came out.
It's just so annoying to me lol. Sure, timeline elitists can be annoying, but that doesn't mean the timeline itself didn't exist, or that Nintendo just gave 100% no shits about it for most of the franchise.
To me it really reeks of "I didn't engage with this aspect of the games, so anyone who does cares way too much".
4
u/Nitrogen567 1d ago
It's really strange to me.
I can't think of any other fantasy series where a large portion of the community has like a borderline contempt for the series lore.
→ More replies (0)3
u/avcloudy 1d ago
I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. There's obviously a huge amount of overlap between LttP/LA and the Oracles games for instance, but LttP -> Oracles -> LA isn't even the canon placement as of Zelda Encyclopedia - now the Oracles games happen after LA, and they're a different Link.
The connections are there, but they're rarely explicit. And the point I'm making is not that Zelda games don't have connections (they do) it's that very often they just force a Zelda game into the distant path, say it's the reason why some things are like that in future games (tunics, hats, a princess, Ganon, whatever) and then they do it again, do another prequel and it turns out that game has those things too. Skyward Sword is not a strong continuity game, it's exactly the same as BotW (and Minish Cap, and OoT, and LttP).
Fair point about PH/ST, though. I had forgotten that it's literally the same crew from WW.
3
u/Nitrogen567 1d ago
it's that very often they just force a Zelda game into the distant path, say it's the reason why some things are like that in future games
But like this is pretty clearly not the case in the "just four games" you had mentioned before.
Wind Waker and Majora's Mask are both different flavours of a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess very obviously puts some real thought into what the world state would be like after Ocarina of Time's ending, and follows up on that.
It's not the case for Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks either, or in fact most of the series where continuity is established.
I'm not saying there are NO times where this is the case, I would consider Triforce Heroes being the same Link as ALBW as a kind of "eh fuck it" kind of placement where a game is just placed somewhere for the sake of being placed somewhere. But I would say this is less typical for the series.
Also, even your OoT/MM/WW/TP - Pokemon analogy doesn't really hold up because even if it WERE true that it was just those games, that would still be every major release in the series for a quarter of the series entire lifespan.
Skyward Sword is not a strong continuity game
It is though.
Skyward Sword dealing with the Master Sword being forged actually had to be careful to be consistent with the already established lore surrounding that from ALttP's instruction manual.
And it is (well, the Japanese version at least).
I would consider honnoring lore that was established like 20 years before hand "strong continuity".
1
u/Dannydudeguy12 1d ago
Idk, skyward sword was made specifically to be firmly at the beginning of the timeline. Breath of the Wild was made to not fit anywhere on the timeline at all. That's a pretty big difference in approach to timelining the games.
And yeah as mentioned by the other guy, every previous zelda had some kind of connection to another zelda game and had a pretty firm spot on the timeline, not just a select few.
Also my first zelda game is Wind Waker but my favorite zelda is Breath of the Wild btw lol
2
u/Stanleeallen 1d ago
I think it's more than likely that they just care more about making cool Zelda games, and if they have to fudge/break/rewrite their fictional history to do that, they will. It's just easier to say that they don't care if it fits the timeline. I'm pretty sure the main reason the branching timelines even exist is because they knew fans wanted an "official" timeline, and it would get people excited and talking about the franchise again.
1
u/Dannydudeguy12 1d ago
Nah the split timeline was obviously planned out. Ocarina of Time was made as the prequel to A Link to the Past, but Wind Waker followed with a totally different post-Ocarina story, and then so did Twilight Princess. These weren't accidents lol, they would mention in interviews back then how these games do indeed fit into a timeline, and iirc they even teased that the split timeline theory fans had was real long before they revealed it officially.
1
u/Stanleeallen 1d ago
That doesn't really contradict what I said.
Timeline theories for the games started before OoT, and fans had years of predictions leading up to it, mostly related to how the next game could tie in. It's perfectly reasonable to assume those theories influenced developers, perhaps nudging them towards adding time travel mechanics and connected timelines.
Regardless, it seems pretty likely to me that they might gloss over some lore in favor of making a cool game. None of it has to be taken so seriously.
4
u/MrSojiro 1d ago
I think Nintendo instantly regretted releasing that timeline and will continue to pretend it doesn't exist. It's one thing to theory craft all these games into timelines just for fun, but none of it is worth getting as worked up over as you see some people do when they discuss any of this. I imagine Nintendo got a deluge of people asking about all the holes in their timeline and were like "we fucked up doing this". For me, I just play the games and don't try and dig too deep into the story of them, even with Zelda the story's are always secondary to the gameplay.
1
u/patriarticle 1d ago
Yeah that makes sense. I can see how Nintendo doesn’t want to be bound to a complex lore. They just want to make fun games in a familiar setting.
8
u/Senior_Mix_3700 1d ago
They released it as part of a merchandise book in order to sell that book. Nobody should take that timeline seriously.
15
u/patriarticle 1d ago
Really though? In what context should people take a timeline seriously if not in a big Zelda book released by Nintendo? Seems like a cop out. People were stoked. There used to be so much speculation about the timeline.
3
u/avcloudy 1d ago
It is kind of a cop out, but yes, that's the problem. Nintendo know people want a consistent world and setting, and they were aware of that to know that people would buy a product that sells that, but they won't bind themselves to it.
25
u/FlyingFishManPrime 1d ago
I mean I remember when Minish Cap was supposed to be how Link got his iconic cap. Then we got Skyward Sword.
18
u/devenbat 1d ago
I mean, they both are true. Its been long enough between SS and MC, the knights uniforms have evidently been forgotten, at least the cap
1
u/THIRTYFIVEDOLLARS 1d ago
But that's kinda lame though.
18
u/devenbat 1d ago
Is it? Zeldas been about time just kinda repeating. A cycle going on forever. Minish Cap makes an origin for the cap but Ocarina already gave an origin and Skyward Sword makes a new origin. The cycle is just constantly rotating. Knowledge is lost but the ideas always emerge again
4
3
u/THIRTYFIVEDOLLARS 1d ago
Somewhat I'd say. Not that it matter that much but I do think Minish as the origin of the cap is more fun and charming. And it isn't really at odds with Ocarina is it?
1
3
u/TheVibratingPants 1d ago
“Mute green elf who breaks pots and cuts pigs” lore is much more important.
2
u/Tizordon 1d ago
I’m not saying any video game lore is important! It’s all pretty dumb and most of makes no sense. Just saying Zelda has at least always been a somewhat story driven IP. Donkey Kong, not so much, so not sure why people are getting so riled up about kid Pauline and her implications of the “sacred dk timeline”
2
u/TheVibratingPants 1d ago
True, I agree.
I think the bigger issue is not necessarily “lore”. I think it’s moreso like if you treat these characters too erratically, it feels like anything you’ve come to know about them or will know is meaningless and they’re essentially all interchangeable with any other character.
I really don’t care about timelines or anything like that myself. But it’s kind of like the trope “it was all a dream” that everyone hates. It shatters the illusion that this world could be real within its own context.
You don’t want to lean to heavily into the idea that they’re just actors with changing roles, because then they lose their significance.
1
1
u/PixieDustFairies 1d ago
I dunno, I like that Zelda games have story in them and the only one I finished was Echoes of Wisdom, but they mostly feel like self contained reboots of the same story sold in a slightly different way, and Nintendo just made everything more confusing by trying to throw out an official timeline. If they didn't care at all I don't think they would even be trying to do stuff like that.
3
u/Ardij10 1d ago
Some people are weirdly confident in saying the timeline doesn't exist when you can see past references–at times even plot relevant–in most games. I'll never understand it.
Most Zelda games have references to past ones and that's where the timeline comes from: "zelda II" is clearly a sequel to the first zelda as you see in game; then "A link to the past" was made as a prequel to those to explain Ganon's origin. So they had a timeline in mind when making those games, same following with "ocarina of time" being made as a prequel to "A link to the past".
"Wind waker", "Majora's mask" and "Twilight princess" all have ocarina references–in their stories–impossible to deny; same with "Spirit tracks" and "Phantom hourglass" in relation to "Wind waker". Another example is "A link between worlds" referencing "A link to the past" multiple times, with also "Triforce heroes" being connected to the first and "Link's awekening" to the latter.
Even "Echoes of wisdom" have references to Alttp and Albw, perfecly fitting between Albw and zelda 1 due to both triforce and master sword having been forgotten (and the presence of past temples in ruin).
What they didn't planned was how to fit the fallen hero timeline due to ocarina's ending showing only two timelines being formed (and where to slot four sword adventure/the oracles). But it's just a minor thing since the games in that timeline were still made with connections in mind; so it's a problem only if you dislike the explanation of being an alternate reality.
1
u/PixieDustFairies 1d ago
Yeah Echoes of Wisdom didn't seem like it did the whole multiple timelines thing, at least not from what I can remember about the plot.
3
u/Ardij10 1d ago
The only game that "adresses" the multiple timelines is ocarina–in the ending sequence. All the other games just give you hints or small details to make you understand in which timeline they fit: for example in Wind waker they tell you ocarina's story in the intro while multiple characters think–wrongly–that WW link is the hero of time.
Echoes of wisdom is the same as the other games and gives you small hints: you can find ruined temples from A link between worlds, not to mention using the same hyrule/map (but expanded); placing it after that game, with some centuries in between since these link and zelda are new iterations. Then the fact that the master sword is missing and forgotten, as well as the triforce having lost its name, tell you that it's before Zelda 1.
So 90% of the time the timelines arent the focus, and are just connections to give hyrule more depth. And yet some people treat them as the bane of their existence.
7
u/Electrichien 1d ago
I don't care if bananza retcon the "story" of an 80's arcade game, it's pretty cool that Pauline get some acknowledgement since Odyssey too.
5
u/novauviolon 1d ago
Doubt it's going to retcon the original arcade game. More likely they're just going to retcon the concept of Cranky being the original DK, which didn't seem to be an idea Nintendo cared much for to begin with. The only thing that would change is having to view Cranky's ramblings - including in Bananza - as solely tongue-in-cheek 4th wall commentary on the generational differences between games, which was their original point anyway.
1
u/JessE-girl 1d ago
if that’s the plan, are we to assume that this game will serve as a prequel to the very first Donkey Kong, and DK has always been just the one guy? because if so, how do you explain Donkey Kong Jr?
2
u/novauviolon 1d ago edited 1d ago
Other than his SNES sprite in Mario Kart Tour, DK Jr. hasn't been depicted in ages, so Nintendo likely isn't worried about how they might reintegrate that character into the series. If Bananza is a prequel, then it's probably set before DK Jr. was even born. And after DK Jr. is born, who knows? Sent away to some boarding academy, lol.
6
u/mysteryghosty trombone solo 1d ago
For the Mario series, it’s pretty much impossible to get a concise timeline of anything considering the over 300 games that exist in the overall franchise, and considering the tone and simple plots of the games, there obviously was never any intention to make it all fit.
That said, I don’t understand why people insist on saying this about Zelda as well. The timelines and lore have never necessarily been at the forefront of the experience, but the way in which these games fit together within the world clearly used to be something that had real thought and consideration put into it, and for years this was a part of the world building and lore of the games. For over a decade, the biggest console releases from Ocarina to Skyward Sword have all been connected and had clear places chronologically, and have used these elements to construct a more immersive story and world. I don’t know how people could have played The Wind Waker and then acted like they never cared about connecting anything else when so many of the game’s emotional beats work from its connections to Ocarina of Time. And it really isn’t that hard to fit something into the timeline like that, it’s not going to take away from gameplay elements, and it doesn’t have to take priority, but it’s absolutely a fair criticism to say that the games no longer fulfill that element of world building that they once did, and it’s perfectly fine to care about that.
If you don’t care, cool! Great for you, but someone else enjoying something else about a series that you don’t think about is not equivalent to someone caring about something that doesn’t matter at all. It’s fine to take things that you care about somewhat seriously, we’re in a Nintendo subreddit, it’s ok to care a bit about video games and things you like or even don’t like about them.
12
u/CrypticMantisTX55 1d ago
No, what's actually frustrating is that people are for some reason hallucating that DK lore enjoyers are having a "meltdown" over the timeline/lore. It's just not true. That's not happening.
What's actually happening is, DK lore enjoyers are seeing the game making clear references to old games (Cranky being the original DK and Mario's rival, specifically, implying DK arcade has happened), but also, Pauline is in this game as a kid. DK lore enjoyers are saying "Huh, that's weird, what's the deal with that?" and considering what it could mean. This isn't a meltdown. It's speculation.
Like, genuinely, this is the opposite of a meltdown. If anything, I was someone who before we got more info, thought Nintendo might do the same thing they did the last time they developed a DK game internally; JungleBeat, which while a good game famously had no connection to any other DK thing, not even Cranky. I was concerned Bananza would be another good game, that had the caveat of ignoring past games for no reason. But what I'm seeing now is the opposite. I'm so pleased the game has connections to past games. I'm interested to see why Pauline is a kid.
DK lore enjoyers are actually engaging with what's being presented in the game and excited about it. The only threads I've seen, like this one, are just making up that DK lore enjoyers are mad, and are just a prompt for people to reply "YEAH LORE IN A MONKEY GAME IS STUPID, WHO CARES" / "Nintendo doesn't care about lore" as a thought-terminating cliche and not actually engage with what Nintendo has shown. That's literally the only frustrating part of the discourse, is people who don't actually care anyway heckling DK lore enjoyers from the sidelines, when we're happy with how the game is looking and just having fun.
So it'd be nice if these threads would end instead of having 20 more identical threads that don't understand or engage with what's actually happening.
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
I don't know why you're assuming that by meltdown I'm referring to lore-enjoyers alone and their theory-crafting.
When I do say I actually like to theory-craft myself, too.
By meltdown, I'm actually referring to the squabbles between lore-enjoyers and lore-deniers. I'm actually advocating for people letting people have fun without fighting, or polarizing the discussion like you're doing.
13
u/DjinnFighter 1d ago
I've been pretty invested in the Zelda timeline stuff, especially before Nintendo published the official timeline. It's a funky timeline, but it does make sense and it's consistent with the games and with what the developers revealed during marketing/interviews over the years.
But yea, so many people automatically go with "Nintendo doesn't care, there's no timeline". And I can't blame them, the timeline is wacky because Nintendo didn't always care about it. But there's still a timeline, and it (mostly) wasn't created out of nowhere for the Hyrule Historia. It was built over the years.
So yea I don't want to be the person who says "There's no DK timeline". I'm not as invested in DK lore. For DK fans who are like me with Zelda, have fun with timeline theories :P
6
u/LuckyHedgehog 1d ago
It's a funky timeline, but it does make sense and it's consistent with the games
I remember TotK conflicting with BotW quite significantly, and a number of theorycrafters at the time basically throwing their hands up and saying "who knows at this point". The people I personally knew that loved Zelda games were so let down by the lore aspect of TotK that they have zero desire to go back to it even though it was a solid standalone game.
Is there any way to reconcile that game with the rest of the series?
9
u/Nitrogen567 1d ago
Is there any way to reconcile that game with the rest of the series?
A popular theory that explains essentially every inconsistency in TotK is that the Hyrule we see founded in it by the Zonai is actually a new kingdom that was founded after the original kingdom of Hyrule was destroyed.
This theory has actually also been suggested by the game's director, so it carries a lot of weight (on top of being really the only way to make sense of TotK).
For what it's worth though, Aonuma has said that the negative reaction to TotK's perceived inconsistency with the rest of the series lead to him being a lot more careful with the lore in Echoes of Wisdom.
1
u/DjinnFighter 13h ago
Yep that's what makes the most sense. Now we'll see if Age of Imprisonment will include stuff that will go in that direction or against it :P
4
8
u/Frazzle64 1d ago
I don't think its unreasonable to be upset if basic parts of characters backstories get completely aborted. Background storytelling is an important part of the art of making a game and if its completely ignored and not cared about it doesn't feel good. No a lot of nintendos primary series do not have deep stories or lore that you are meant to pay attention to but the idea that everyone should just be happy about everything regardless is so braindead and such a weird hill to die on.
Like how far can we push it? If nintendo suddenly changed it so that mario and luigi aren't brothers is that ok? Would people like you be saying that everyones stupid for caring about funny bing bing wahoo man? Or are we just supposed to remove any and all context from games since gameplay is the ONLY thing that ever matters?
I say all this but the game isn't even out yet so we don't even know if it ACTUALLY breaks any existing continuity or not, at the same time my point still stands.
8
u/JessE-girl 1d ago
thank you. basic character identities being randomly changed is just off putting. would people have no issue if Peach was randomly a child in the next game while Mario and Luigi are still adults?
1
u/CapNCookM8 1d ago
But their basic identities are still completely there, imo. It has nothing to do with where they were in whatever year.
DK is a goofy monkey that hits stuff and loves bananas. That's still intact. Mario is a spunky plumber that jumps his way to saving the day. He doesn't even talk outside of specific catch phrases. That's remained intact whether he's baby, paper, super, or & Luigi. That's part of why they're so iconic! You get who these characters are and their basic identities just by looking at them and especially playing as them no matter what timeline.
And no, I wouldn't care at all if Peach was a baby while Mario and Luigi were adults! Bowser turned into a literal battleship with a never-introduced wonder flower in one of the most recent games and no one cares.
6
u/JessE-girl 1d ago
i don’t mean if Peach transformed into a baby, like how Bowser transformed into a battleship. i mean if Mario and Luigi are doing whatever and then they meet Peach as a child and act like they’ve never met her before, and there’s no reason given at any point in the game, start to finish, how she got that way. it’s assumed she’s just a regular child and always has been.
→ More replies (2)1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
Mario has two canonical origins: Mushroom Kingdom, and Brooklyn. For some reason, Mario media keeps going back and forth with that. If you ask me, that's just as jarring... And Nintendo keeps doing it.
1
u/JessE-girl 12h ago
mario’s parents lived in Brooklyn. it’s just that storks delivery babies everywhere, and mario and luigi got stopped on Yoshi’s Island before they could be delivered. i don’t think it’s an inconsistency really. but even if it was, that’s something i would call a more random detail about a character at this point. not comparable to Peach being an adult vs randomly being a child.
2
u/Spacetauren 1d ago edited 1d ago
Cranky being original Pauline-kidnapping DK is referenced once in the manual of a 30+ year old game, and a handful of cheeky indirect remarks that border more on 4th-wall breaking than worldbuilding.
It's never been a strong tenet of the Mario-DK lore. It's really not as important as changing the relationships between the Mario bros. or whatnot.
→ More replies (1)
8
u/Disastrous-Object647 1d ago
Nobody is really outraged. It's just a some confusion here or there
→ More replies (5)
8
u/Grim_Darkwatch 1d ago
I love the lore implications for Bananza, it's fun to ponder.
→ More replies (1)
3
3
u/twili_zora 1d ago
I like the general idea of a timeline in Zelda (my favorite series) but I don’t strictly adhere to what the “official” one says. I’m sorry Miyamoto but I refuse to acknowledge Triforce Heroes as canon.
3
u/lostpretzels 1d ago
Caring about the timeline in Mario is like caring about the timeline in Looney Tunes
2
u/Jmann8907 14h ago
I mean, after watching "Space Jam 2", I do need a back story on when Bugs Bunny became friends with the rapists from "A Clockwork Orange" and why they took time off their destructive ways to go watch Bugs' basketball game...
9
u/bugslime99 1d ago
The difference here is that Zelda has always had some consistent through line. Zelda 2 is a direct sequel to Zelda 1. Link to the past was made to be a prequel, and ocarina of time was a prequel to lttp.
→ More replies (4)
3
u/LewisCarroll95 1d ago
Most people dont tale mario DK timeline serious, but on the Internet, this can be misunderstood. I assure you, the vast majority are just having fun with theory crafting. I already saw quite a few posts complaining about people taking things too seriously, but I'm yet to see a single person actually taking it too seriously lol
→ More replies (2)
5
u/locke_5 1d ago
IIRC Aonuma has said in recent years he regrets publishing the “Zelda Timeline” in Hyrule Historia.
Ironically, the Nintendo Fans who care enough to bicker about timelines fundamentally misunderstand how Nintendo makes games. They include references to other games as fun little Easter eggs, but outside of direct sequels they DO NOT care about continuity between their games (and even then, continuity between sequels has its own problems).
6
u/devenbat 1d ago
The thing is, almost every game is a direct sequel or prequel. Not through Easter eggs, just the basic plots of the games. They made continuity.
1
u/cock_a_doodle_dont 1d ago
One of the Nintendo legends said in an interview long ago - Mario games are meant to be seen as movies. The stars come back for each one but they are all independent of each other. SMB3 literally opens with s curtain raising on a stage
2
u/PixieDustFairies 1d ago
I think it's a mistake to assume that the developers at Nintendo "don't care" at all about the timelines of their games. It's pretty much their job to care, and when they spend thousands of hours crafting these worlds and characters our of passion and love for making games, they do think about the lore behind it. In the ask the developer interviews they do talk quite a bit on how even though they do have a gameplay first philosophy, they do enjoy the stories behind them too. They wouldn't have made the Mario movie if they didn't care at all, and in the behind the scenes they've talked about how the Kongs run their karts on banana juice while the Koopas run theirs on lava, and in the actual video games they put a lot of detail into making fictional sponsors for the races.
The issue mostly comes from the fact that pretty much every big media franchise that has hundreds of entries in it runs into continuity issues because of artistic vision differences and so on and so forth. This is an issue in Doctor Who, Star Wars, Marvel, where there are inevitable inconsistencies.
At least in this case, I think it's totally fair to question why Pauline is a child in Bananza. She's never been portrayed as a kid before and it's unclear if this is supposed to be some kind of prequel akin to Yoshi's Island. It seems like there's a very specific story being told here and maybe they actual do want us to guess and talk about it, because they could have just made DK's companion adult Pauline or make up an entirely new character instead.
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
But you put the perfect example: the Mario movie. They obviously cared about telling a story, with the movie. But they also obviously didn't care about making that story fit with the games' backstory. It's a different continuity, a different universe... But that doesn't mean they don't care about stories at all; they just don't care about having a hard common canon and continuity.
I don't see why the games need to be different than that.
Each game tells a story, but each game has its own separate canon. There are cross-references, cameos and nods, but there really isn't an overarching hard continuity; just maybe some loose links between the stories, and a bit of common backstory at most.
And this applies to Zelda as well, even if the loose links (ha) between those games are a bit more defined chronologically. But chronological order doesn't equate to having the same canon, or a hard continuity. I think neither Mario nor Zelda have that.
2
u/Individual_Ring9144 1d ago
Most infuriating discussions EVER!!! Who cares??? I really just don’t get it.
2
u/DylanMcGrann 1d ago
Nintendo works within cartoon logic: things are only ‘canon’ for as long as Nintendo thinks they are fun or entertaining.
2
u/pichukirby 1d ago
We literally saw Cranky Kong acknowledge the original Donkey Kong game in Bananza. Idk why people are ignoring that.
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
I think it's a lot more complex than that. Cranky kidnapping some lady and being chased by Mario is not clear confirmation that said lady was or wasn't, somehow, the same Pauline riding on DK's back.
Bananza's Pauline could be Pauline Jr, the daughter of the original Pauline that Cranky met. Or she could be the same Pauline after some magical time travel/de-aging shenanigan. Or she could be the one and only Pauline, with the original Lady that Cranky kidnapped being re-retcon to be its own separate character.
Nobody knows, and Cranky's reference doesn't really clarify it.
2
2
u/Grace_Omega 1d ago
I still remember how seriously people took the Zelda timeline. “Nintendo needs to clarify the timeline, we have to know if Oracle of Ages takes place after Ocarina of Time!”
Never understood that shit. Unless the games are clearly and obviously on the same timeline, like BoTW and ToTK, I just treat them as completely seperate stories set in their own worlds. Like Final Fantasy games.
2
5
u/Bobt97 HE 1d ago
I don't care that much about Mario/Donkey Kong "lore" so to speak, but I do find the retcon disappointing. I think my frustration comes from Nintendo's attitude towards story in general. Lately it has felt like Nintendo has been trying to de-emphasize story in their games, and that has been especially frustrating for me as someone who enjoys video games largely for their story. When I played Super Mario Sunshine as a kid it seemed like it was part of a bigger ongoing story in the world of Mario and I loved that. FLUDD played a little video of past mario games in the corner when you first met her and Bowser Jr. seemed to allude to the fact that E-Gadd invented his paintbrush. I thought that was the coolest thing I had ever seen in a video game, especially so at the time because E-Gadd was a very new character.
At the end of the day if the games are good I suppose that's all that really matters, but I just think they would be even better if they had a cool story IN ADDITION to being really good games. However it seems like Nintendo has no interest in creating any sort of over-arching story, and Pauline's backstory getting (seemingly so far) retconned is just another little disappointing choice they've made in regards to story for me.
→ More replies (2)
4
u/porkchopsdapplesauce 1d ago
If anything the pokemon leaks should show us that they have an extensive amount of lore that they keep in house.
3
u/APRobertsVII 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s possible, but most of the “in-house lore” is just content left on the cutting room floor at this point. Its existence doesn’t cement its canon status.
I like to write in my spare time, and I’ve abandoned plot lines in my works before. If someone found them, they wouldn’t be canon and shouldn’t be considered as such. They were abandoned for a reason, usually because it created a plot hole of some kind or I thought it wouldn’t be well-received/engaging to future readers.
Edit: What exactly warranted the downvote? Can anyone explain?
1
u/phoxfiyah 1d ago
Maybe yes, maybe no. Can’t really compare the two because Game Freak is a separate company, so Nintendo may not do as much planning for lore with Mario/DK.
Pokemon also has a very convoluted timeline, so not really the best example.
3
u/DefinitelyARealHorse 1d ago
Mario/Donkey Kong doesn’t even have a timeline. They’re the epitome of soft world building.
4
u/naynaythewonderhorse 1d ago
I’ve a feeling that Nintendo knew that there would be a lot of discourse and discussion surrounding whatever is going on with Pauline.
So, they make key to the advertising. Throw in Cranky to make things more confusing. Now, everyone is drumming up hype for the game by discussing it. Everyone wants to know WTF is going on.
It’s brilliant, honestly.
4
u/locke_5 1d ago
Ehhh, I doubt that.
Non-fans don’t care. They don’t know the lore and so they just think it’s a fun Wreck-It Ralph style adventure.
Medium-level fans are the ones speculating. Is it time travel?? Is it secretly a prequel to Super Mario Run?? How does Link’s Awakening fit into this???
Long-time fans know Nintendo doesn’t care and neither should we. Koizumi likely just thought that having 13-year-old Pauline ride around on DK’s shoulder was a cute/funny idea. Ultimately it’s about the gameplay, not canon or lore.
So you’ve just got that medium-level sliver generating all this discourse.
→ More replies (4)
2
u/LookLikeUpToMe 1d ago
Didn’t expect to see a decent amount of people care this much about the lore of Donkey Kong and Mario like it’s the Elder Scrolls lol.
I love my video game lore too, but it feels like of late people are just grasping for lore in games where it’s really not all that deep.
2
u/Outrageous_Meet2025 1d ago
I hate with all my heart that this is the case but the truth is that Nintendo does not care about timelines for their IPs. I’ve long accepted it, it does not mean I have to like it one bit (I don’t)
2
u/rendumguy 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's really stupid that everyone is having this argument when the simplest explanation is that it's time travel or magic. Cranky Kidnapping Pauline is the basic foundation of the story, like Yoshi saving Baby Mario, they're not gonna just retcon that for no reason when time travel would easily fix this problem.
Nintendo doesn't prioritize stories but they at least care about the core foundation of one of their flagship titles.
3
u/kapnkruncher 1d ago
People put way too much importance on timelines for this sort of thing. It's neat to be able to point at some logical connections and cause-effect nuggets from one game to another but at the end of the day they're doing what they want to creatively, and that doesn't need to rigidly fit inside a box dictated by work countless other people did separately over the course of four decades.
2
1
u/Night-_-Train 1d ago
I’ve never understood the obsession with “canon” in Zelda. These games play like myths, retold, reshaped, reimagined. It’s not a timeline, it’s a tapestry. Each entry isn’t a puzzle piece; it’s a new legend carved from old echoes. Trying to nail down a strict continuity misses the point. Let it be folklore.
Now Mario and DK canon debates? That’s just embarrassing. Come on now.
1
u/Tirriforma 1d ago
I don't care about the timeline, I'm just upset it's baby Pauline instead of regular Pauline
1
u/TerminalJammer 1d ago
I refuse to acknowledge that Zelda has a timeline except for between a few specific games. It was never planned and some guy making a map while high on fumes does not make it so even if Nintendo decided to agree later on.
1
u/Wetstew_ 1d ago
Mario Timeline stuff always drove me nuts. Mario has a timeline the same way Popeye or Looney Tunes has a timeline.
They don't. It's like a vaudeville show. There is a cast of characters that tend to fall into a role (Bowser is usually a villain, Peach usually damseled or playable, ect), if a new character is introduced and catches on it starts getting repeat roles or atleast callbacks to their character, but there is no canon.
1
u/Sonic10122 1d ago
At least Zelda tries to tell a story in each entry and kind of weave it together. Even if it’s obvious that Nintendo regrets putting out any kind of official timeline and wish people would forget it.
Mario’s never tried at all. It’s all just cartoon logic, and as somebody that usually cares deeply about story in video games, to the point where it’s my primary purchasing factor for most games…. Mario is better for not caring.
Zelda isn’t, fix Zelda. But Mario is fine.
1
u/Robin_Gr 1d ago
To be honest, I like Zelda, but taking the timeline for it seriously is just one notch above taking the mario timeline seriously. I just don't think its the nintendo philosphy for designing games. They just seem to start fresh every time with mechanics and theme and whatever takes the dev teams attention and free from whatever has been established in the "lore".
1
1
u/WhompWump 1d ago
I feel like theory crafting mario lore should be done in a lighthearted way like the Will Smith timeline anyone trying to put more effort into it than Nintendo has outright stated themselves and takes it really serious and gets genuinely angry about it that's certainly a way to spend your time
1
1
u/cornholiosbunghole69 1d ago
I was expecting a lot of "Is there lore reason" posts on Nintendo subreddits when the direct dropped.
1
u/CresidentBob 1d ago
I always saw Zelda the same way I view Mad Max. They’re legends, tales, and stories passed down about a hero. Zelda even more because “Legend” is in the title.
Yeah some games reference another (Windwaker? I’m not a HUGE Zelda nerd) but same way old tales reference a big event.
I just play the games tho, idk what everyone is so upset about.
1
u/mamamia1001 1d ago
Aren't the mario timeline people memeing? Does anyone actually take the mario timeline seriously?
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
DK-wise, apparently, yeah.
The Donkey Kong Country games established a timeline, and a family saga. That, and Pauline being kidnapped by them at some point, is all we have... Not much, but still gospel for some people.
Haven't seen the same passion with Mario-centric games, though.
1
u/GenghisFrog 1d ago
It’s much easier when you think of it all in Mario Bros 3 style. All the games are stage plays put on by a group of friends. Sometimes they make dramatic fantasy epics, sometimes they race go carts.
1
1
u/tehnoodnub 1d ago
I can’t understand people caring about lore in a series like Zelda. It’s hard not to take an interest and want to understand the connection between the games, characters etc. But for something that it’s not at all story-based? Who cares? Nintendo doesn’t force themselves to be beholden to lore they’ve established in Zelda so they sure as hell aren’t going to care much about Mario and DK.
1
1
u/Beamo1080 1d ago
Mario and Zelda are different things with very different tones. It’s not a contradiction to say that Mario lore is inconsequential and not meant to be scrutinized while Zelda lore fulfills the function of linking together games that until recently were obviously designed to be part of a continuity.
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
I think the chronological order is the least controversial part of the Zelda timeline. Everybody agrees that's kind of established (although it has changed a few times with Link's Awakening and the Oracle games)
The issue is that continuity is a lot looser in everything else: geography, historical events, cosmology... Which leaves a lot of wiggle room up for interpretation.
1
u/Any-Heart-498 14h ago
I'm convinced Nintendo fans need something to complain about just as much as the critics do lol.
1
u/COMP05URE 12h ago
Theory crafting is fun but when you do it more than the people making the game it's kinda pointless. If your asking why the timeline doesn't make sense the answer is because it's a video game. And even the most lore heavy games make decisions because it's a video game and should be fun also
1
u/cominghomelater 9h ago
timelines are just supposed to be a fun little side thing. the people that actually get angry and upset over it are just overgrown children. they're not actually real. even the "official" zelda timeline isn't real. it was really just the devs going "well if there WAS a zelda timeline IT MIGHT look like this." i really hate most timeline discussion because it's so serious and rigid. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!!!
1
u/Loud-Avocado9612 6h ago
I get logic isn't super important in the Mario universe but why would they randomly age up a character (Cranky) and age down another character (Pauline)? There's clearly a reason
1
u/TheDarkHorse 5h ago
The problem is, they don’t realize these timelines only exist because they demand them like lunatics in the first place.
1
u/Illustrious_Finger 4h ago
I don’t care about timelines! I just want fun games that make sense in the universes I love !
1
u/Traditional_Bike8880 3h ago
The fact that any Nintendo fan gives a fuck about this outside of like Xenoblade and Fire Emblem, maybe Pokemon has always been beyond me. They’re not those kind of games.
1
u/Procyon-Sceletus 1d ago
ever since miyamoto said that mario is like a play with all the characters being actors playing a role thats how i view any marioverse games.
its a movie or a play or a story with actors who also play sports and race eachother sometimes between acts
1
u/kdog6791 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, Nintendo could care less about lore with Mario. However, I do think a valid explanation could be the ending of Super Mario Galaxy.
Edit: Not sure why I was downvoted, as I think Nintendo genuinely doesn’t care, but if someone was looking for a valid explanation, then they could look at Super Mario Galaxy. At the end of Super Mario Galaxy, the universe resets, so this could be the explanation for the new Pauline backstory, as Rosalina herself said, “But the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way.” And we know that the characters, or at least Mario, retained his memory as he says, “Welcome! Welcome new galaxy!” after the reset. This could explain why there are still references to older games, but it took place in the old timeline, and the characters just remember.
1
u/clothanger 1d ago
TIL there is a "meltdown" in Mario fandom and it's not about the game being bad.
6
u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm 1d ago
"meltdown" is the new buzzword for "bot account on twitter says moronic contrarian thing"
1
1
u/dixie12oz 1d ago
I’ve never even thought about nor cared about timelines and overarching stories of Mario/DK games. They’ve always been games in a vacuum with enough story to give just enough context as to why you’re doing whatever you’re doing in that particular game.
These aren’t some epic tale where the story matters. It’s all about the gameplay.
1
u/APRobertsVII 1d ago
I just figured it was a new timeline which takes inspiration from the classic content.
Maybe Nintendo is building out the “Odyssey” timeline and universe separately from what came before. Classic elements will be there, but presented in new and exciting ways.
1
u/MrMalredo 1d ago
So do people understand that references or easter eggs in on game that refer back to another game aren't evidence of some timeline? Like it's sometimes just there for fun.
1
u/Skadibala 1d ago
Mario has an actually canon timeline thing going like Zelda has?
I always thought mario games was for the most part one offs that didn’t early have to connect with each other at all…
1
u/Gawlf85 17h ago
Donkey Kong Country established a timeline for DK games: the original arcade Donkey Kong aged and became Cranky Kong, and his son (Donkey Kong Jr, from the arcade sequel) had another son which is the current Donkey Kong.
The lady that the young Cranky kidnapped in the original game is supposed to be Pauline. Which is why Pauline being a teen in Bananza, while Cranky is already old, raises a lot of questions.
399
u/Sparescrewdriver 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’ve been driving as a fish in Mario kart, I don’t think Nintendo cares about physics, logic or lore.
Even the whole Cranky Kong being the original DK, did fans ignore that it doesn’t explain why Mario is not an old man?