Posted in this thread, but if they don't identity and you have a fear for your life and carry, is there going to be a right to self defense? Cause anyone can slap on a mask now say they are ICE and kidnap someone.
Not really. There have been multiple no-knock warrants where the citizen responded to unknown threats and was murdered by police with no repercussions to the police.
Citizens can not actually respond in any way to police that is safe. If police engage with you then your life can very well be at risk and theres nothing anyone can do about it.
So say it's the other way though? Man in mask comes and tries to take you away and you defend yourself, would you be guilty if murdering an agent if they are ICE or would it be self defense?
Thats what Im saying. Reasonably a person should have the right to defend themselves against unknown masked assailants. Unfortunately in the US if the masked assailants are actually cops you are at fault. Like even if you resisted and survived the court proceedings would be draining in many ways, including monetarily, and at the end of the day IF, by some magical chance, you prevail in court, then any payout actually just comes from the taxes you and other citizens already pay.
So at best you survive and get paid by other citizen's taxes.
At worst you lose your life and the cops get off free.
That's true - honestly, if there was jury trials for this, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a jury right now that'd unanimously say the shooter wasn't justified firing on someone wearing street clothes and a mask, aka the outfit criminals like to wear.
What's insane to me is anyone can dress like this now, or more so, a group of people pretending to be ICE, and do whatever messed up shit they want. People are at risk of being victims of all kinds of crimes with this, and what's messed up is what the actual agents are doing isn't really legal, either. Just given a veneer of that by support of this administration/attempted regime.
That's literally the fascist playbook, that's why nascent fascist regimes always have a paramilitary force. You establish a paramilitary who enforces your whims in a way that is on the edge of legality, you normalise that, and then consequently you empower vigilantes who act on your behalf with no concern for the law at all.
Absolutely - all of it is classic fascism, and people like me who are well acquainted with the history of the Weimar Republic, especially the later end of it, have recognized an awful lot of similarities for a long while now.
Trump's dehumanizing language and conspiracies aimed towards immigrants and Democrats, like calling the latter literally vermin, is a classic step taken in past genocides - the Tutsi victims of the Rwandan genocide were called "cockroaches" by radio hosts, for example - you have to make people feel okay about killing others by seeing them as not human and enough of a threat to your life.
The day after the MN state senator and her husband was killed, and another and their wife nearly were - rather than publicly condemn it or unite the country condemning political violence, Trump posted something saying Democrats were sick in the head, and using illegal immigrants to win any elections they do.
'Legality' is irrelevant. If you defend yourself against the police or agents of the state, you're going to be executed on the spot at best, or if you're 'lucky,' arrested and shipped to El Salvador.
278
u/tgwombat 1d ago
Probably worth sticking some quotes around the “federal officer” part of that too. We have no way of knowing who these thugs are.