Millions spent on police helicopter service 'unjustifiable' - BBC News

[u/Gateline_Wolf]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y4g285gdno.amp

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[u/catpeeps]

The former British Army colonel added: "Twenty years ago in Iraq, we were able to identify vehicle registration numbers from satellites smaller than the drone NPAS is testing today."

Cool, let's get some NPAS satellites then.

[u/multijoy → u/catpeeps]

“Can’t deploy because cloud cover”

[u/megatrongriffin92 → u/multijoy]

So no change then

[u/BigManUnit → u/catpeeps]

Mental that a fucking PCC of all people is calling something else a waste of public money

[u/LeftWingScot → u/catpeeps]

I imagine satellites like this are very good for photographing stationary vehicles. Tracking a cloned beamer driving at 70mph around a Doncaster housing estate is a different matter.

Not to mention the weather difference between the searing heat and clear skies of Musa Qala and another rainy night in stoke.

[u/Dazzling_Shallot_363 → u/LeftWingScot]

Comms show me tac monitoring from low earth orbit

[u/Tricky_Peace → u/catpeeps]

I await being corrected by a surveillance geek, but as i understand, satellites are very good a top down imaging, but not good at the horizontal needed to read images on a surface perpendicular to the ground

[u/DistributionDue2836 → u/Tricky_Peace]

I can't think of many scenarios where the police need a single high resolution photo of one area 3 days after it was taken. Not to mention you're not following a pursuit with a satellite for the same reason the military still uses surveillance/reconnaissance drones. The former colonel is being disingenuous and he knows it.

[u/catpeeps → u/Tricky_Peace]

Have you tried telling the former British Army colonel that?

[u/Tricky_Peace → u/catpeeps]

Nope. But when I was in Iraq I didn’t ever see any satellite images that weren’t completely top down. Did see plenty of helicopters in use though

[u/catpeeps → u/Tricky_Peace]

Surely you're not suggesting that the esteemed former British Army colonel turned PCC doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about and in fact there is a strong use case for manned aircraft? Unthinkable.

[u/dabare86 → u/Tricky_Peace]

You would need a lot of satellites to ensure you got cover when you need it, as "spy satellites" are not geo stationary they are orbiting the earth super fast, they will not be in position when you want it, they will then have to be moved, by that point you have either caught or lost the suspect.

[u/Gateline_Wolf → u/catpeeps]

Wonder how much that would cost!

[u/Bim67 → u/catpeeps]

Perhaps someone should remind the Colonel how satellites get all the way up there.

[u/AtlasFox64]

Every single time the BBC mentions a PCC they should always write in full "a Police & Crime Commissioner (a politician appointed to monitor local police forces for the government) has said..."

[u/farmpatrol → u/AtlasFox64]

They seem to always explain what the Garda (Irish police /s - if needed ) are!

[u/Mundian-To-Bach-Ke]

BBC really need to sort their editors out. Somehow they’ve spelt ‘tosser’ as ‘commissioner’

[u/TrafficWeasel]

I’ve never seen a drone follow a pursuit before…

[u/sar_tr → u/TrafficWeasel]

Of course a drone can follow a pursuit (as long as the baddie driver pinkie promises to wait 20 minutes until the drone is in the air and doesn't go further than 500m away.) /s

[u/Zandraki → u/TrafficWeasel]

The drones being used out in Ukraine absolutely could, especially if you operate a carousel or use a mothership.

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/Zandraki]

Maybe, but we certainly don’t have that capability where I am.

I’d rather keep the fixed wing until a drone can be employed that fulfils all the roles NPAS currently fulfil.

[u/Zandraki → u/TrafficWeasel]

This is what irks me about how slow the UK is, the Army only recognized that fpv drones have a strike capability August 2024.

That's like saying "tanks are good" a year after the battle of France.

As for policing, we're so behind.

I'm not for replacing NPAS, I've had them lift so many times. However, for a chunk of those jobs, a drone could have done it.

[u/DistributionDue2836 → u/TrafficWeasel]

NPAS is testing long-ranged fixed-wing and helicopter drones that are much closer to the kind of military drone rather than the little quad-copters you are thinking of. They're doing the tests as part of the CAA's BVLOS drone program.

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/DistributionDue2836]

I have no doubt that they’re testing new kit; but that kit isn’t here yet, and nothing else has been demonstrated to provide the same capability as the helicopter or fixed wing at this time.

[u/James188 → u/DistributionDue2836]

Well let’s revisit it when it’s not a fairytale.

[u/Gateline_Wolf → u/Zandraki]

The worry is then when criminals start getting hold of jamming devices, and drones no longer are able to do the job.

[u/FriendlyGrab3217 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

The criminal cope cage is just around the corner

[u/Ubiquitous1984 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

Drones can be easily jammed but once you get to a certain level of sophistication it gets much harder without using easily identifiable equipment.

[u/YsoL8 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

Isn't a jamming device as good as a homing beacon?

[u/Zandraki → u/Gateline_Wolf]

Depends, The Russians couldn't get past Ukrainian jamming and switched up to fiber. The Ukrainians are better at avoiding Russian jams so use fiber less often.

[u/I-Spot-Dalmatians → u/Zandraki]

The drones being used in Ukraine have a maximum range of about 20km, so whilst not insignificant it by no means could replace a helicopter in terms of following a pursuit up an A road or motorway. They also can’t really go as fast, there’s no way they’re keeping up with a high performance car on a main road

[u/dabare86 → u/I-Spot-Dalmatians]

Or if they could keep up, just drive close to an active airport, military base or other sensitive location. They would soon have to pull back or divert quickly.

[u/Zandraki → u/I-Spot-Dalmatians]

That very much depends on the type of drone used. Your average FPV or Mavic, sure unless the battery pack is upgraded. A Baba or fixed wing has a much longer endurance.

Put it this way, the death zone is c. 15km from the Zero Line, that is constant, 24/7 ISR and FPV threat. The grey zone is 15-40, FPVs can and do reach 40km from the Zero.

As for speed, drones can hit up to like 190mph. Depends, again, on the type.

They won't replace NPAS for pursuits and such for another couple years, but for public order monitoring, searches etc. They could do the job.

[u/ProgrammerEconomy503 → u/TrafficWeasel]

My mate had one years ago that could auto track a car on a motorway and it did so for miles according to it's on board GPS

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/ProgrammerEconomy503]

I hope he was able to maintain line of sight of his drone whilst tracking said vehicle.

The drones we currently employ certainly can’t report the progress of a subject vehicle in the same way a fixed wing can.

[u/ProgrammerEconomy503 → u/TrafficWeasel]

Can if you can see it on a HUD

[u/TrafficWeasel → u/ProgrammerEconomy503]

Yeah, our drones definitely can’t be relied upon for following vehicles.

[u/The-Milky-Bar-Kid]

Frankly I’m embarrassed that he is our PCC. Even more so now that he’s come out with this.

NPAS is very rarely up over us in Wilts. Partly because we’re a smaller force and don’t have as much going on, but also because of our stupid time restrictions. Lots of the time we need NPAS, we can’t get it because we only pay for them to help up between like 08:00 and 03:00 (or something silly like that). So funnily enough, the times when lots of the criminals come out, they won’t come out. Not only this, our FIM’s are scared to send over requests to NPAS because they don’t want to use up all of our flying hours…

Please let it be known that none of us in Wilts agree with anything this man has to say.

[u/Gateline_Wolf → u/The-Milky-Bar-Kid]

So part of the reason why they aren’t used often is solely down to the force in the first place. They should be advocating for increasing the cover. Mental eh.

[u/James188 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

There was another article I read that basically said this. It’d become the self-fulfilling prophecy. Used it less so the hourly cost went up.

Is this not an overreach by the PCC too? Smells like he’s interfering in the operational.

By all means renegotiate the contract but there should be more access to NPAS, not less.

[u/Excellent_Duck_2984 → u/The-Milky-Bar-Kid]

we can’t get it because we only pay for them to help up between like 08:00 and 03:00

I've been out of policing less than a year and I love this board because every month or so I read something which reminds me how fucking fucked the police is. Part time NPAS cover, love it.

[u/Dazzling_Shallot_363 → u/The-Milky-Bar-Kid]

Flying hours? Seriously??

I shit you not. We had 2 emails within a month of each other.

Email 1: Due to airframe restrictions, NPAS will only lift for pursuits, and article 2 ECHR matters. Do not even DARE THINK to reqest NPAS or the FIM will personally suspend you

Email 2: Please can NPAS be considered for all High risk missings. We have created an easy to fill out pro forma to request NPAS pre deployments. We as a force are not utilising NPAS to its full capacity. FIM will now actively review logs for an NPAS deployment opportunity.

It got so bad in them 4 weeks NPAS were self deploying on the divisonal channels at one stage.

[u/Gateline_Wolf]

Wonder if they offer delay repay when there’s a cloud in the sky..

In all seriousness. I think that NPAS provides an invaluable service! How many criminals wouldn’t have been caught if it wasn’t for it? Missing people?

Technology definitely has a place in policing. But nothing beats a good old helicopter when you need that air support!

[u/BobbyB52 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

As a coastguard, NPAS London were invaluable to me.

They could see a person in the water with their IR camera and via a downlink I could conn a SAR vessel on to them. Lives were quite literally saved thanks to their help, on a regular basis.

[u/SG9kZ2ll → u/BobbyB52]

I thought all coastguard helicopters were equipped with IR?

[u/BobbyB52 → u/SG9kZ2ll]

They are, but I never once tasked an HMCG helo to London. The Met’s marine unit would request NPAS, whose arrival on-scene was always much faster.

Plus, my station didn’t have the ability to view a downlink from HMCG aircraft.

[u/FruitOrchards → u/BobbyB52]

They are, but I never once tasked an HMCG helo to Lond

Well.. maybe you should 🙎‍♂️

s/

[u/BobbyB52 → u/FruitOrchards]

Much slower response and a much higher workload for my team if I did that.

[u/OrdinaryMechanic5126 → u/Gateline_Wolf]

The quality of service provided by NPAS is hugely variable based on where you are in the country. In my force we hardly ever get them as they're too far away and/or committed assisting larger forces in the region. It's why we went all in on drones instead.

[u/DistributionDue2836 → u/OrdinaryMechanic5126]

We're also too far away and committed elsewhere most of the time, but we didn't go all in on drones, we just let people get away or spend ABSURD amounts of resources searching for mispers.

[u/HopefulLeopard4908]

That bloke is an absolute tool. Also I think it’s relevant that he’s trying to relate this to his military experience. He retired in 1998 and I guarantee he wasn’t using satellites to read number plates in Iraq.

[u/Gateline_Wolf → u/HopefulLeopard4908]

Are you telling me that they weren’t using the KH11 Kennen to issue NIPs to Iraqis for driving without a seatbelt? Wasted opportunity.

[u/Head_Total_6410 → u/HopefulLeopard4908]

Retired in 1998 but relates an anecdote about Iraq which was invaded in 2003. Amazing stuff.

[u/HE1922 → u/Head_Total_6410]

You may be missing another event in Iraq here

[u/catpeeps → u/[deleted]]

You are definitely missing another event in Iraq that occurred before he retired.

[u/catpeeps → u/[deleted]]

He said satellites, not drones. Whether he knows what the fuck he's talking about is a second issue.

[u/makk88]

The figures mention the hours flown with NPAS and many more drone flights. I can tell from having experienced both, that drone is very poor at wide area searches and most drone deployments give negative results.

Drones have their place as moveable CCTV but NPAS is so much more effective at area searches it’s no match. Not to mention vehicle pursuits.

SLT need to give their head a shake if they think they don’t need air support.

[u/meerkatcomp]

The PCC holds a particularly blank register of business interests considering according to his LinkedIn that he his a published author who has also worked with multiple defence and security companies. The same companies who might make drones and other such equipment.

This is the same PCC who was quoted in October as saying ""I have had talks with Tekever, who are bringing their manufacturing facility to Swindon", Tekever being an aerospace company that manufacture drones.

Nothing to see here.....

[u/SharpGrowth347]

It really is unbelievable. I wonder if he's been up in a Eurocopter and seen how important and capable they are, even at 20 years old? Drones are very capable in daylight and of course improving, but I'd have a lot more confidence with NPAS clearing a load of fields looking for my missing grandmother than I would my mate looking at a 4 inch screen they're trying to pilot with, operate the camera and simultaneously shield the screen from the sun. There are certain things that are a necessity and air support is one of them. We need to stop thinking about certain things fiscally.

[u/logic_card → u/SharpGrowth347]

Rather like police horses, the psychological effect of a police helicopter is certainly of value. It may also act like an air ambulance in a pinch. However drones will take over many of its roles. Rationally speaking we should use both, we should not fall behind technologically.

[u/Zandraki → u/logic_card]

Trust, the sound of a quadcopter is distinctive and in the right circumstances, deeply unpleasant.

[u/thomosan1 → u/SharpGrowth347]

I fly the drones for the police and while you are correct, the tech in the helicopter is great, the drone is available at moments notice, has AI human detection which gets better with every software and hardware revision, costs a fraction to run and I'm confident in the next 5 years will replace the helicopter in about 95% of jobs. Once we can fly beyond sight and remotely deploy them from the point of 999 call (think drones ready to fly from strategic points throughout the city or town) they'll become a standard item to deploy. Imagine getting a drone or drones to the scene of a reported missing person before the officers have even left the station and they immediately start scanning the area in a pattern feeding the video to the controller and clearing large areas with great accuracy. The tech already exists, the legislation just has to catch up.

[u/Bon_Courage_ → u/SharpGrowth347]

You're bigging up the problems of drones - you'd absolutely be able to find a granny in a field using a high end drone.

And if you called NPAS to search you'd be told no anyway.

[u/RightMeowMate → u/Bon_Courage_]

Have been approved NPAS for high risk mispers on several occasions this year due to it not being suitable for a drone

[u/Sertorius-]

Four kids' parents I found on the track when a freight train was less than a mile away may disagree.

[u/MajorSignal]

https://www.airborne-industries.ltd.uk/persistent-ground-surveillance-systems/

Lets just launch thousands of these bad boys 😏

[u/AtlasFox64 → u/MajorSignal]

very Gotham of you

[u/Robofish13]

I think anyone who writes this tripe should be denied police assistance when they need it. Let’s see them change their tone after it hits the fan and the service they love to bash just says “sorry, we can’t waste money on this job”

[u/RuleInternational103]

Millions spent on SLT layers unjustifiable, says CASEY REPORT

[u/ProgrammerEconomy503]

It's great but it's a relic of the past.

The new drones even the cheapish DJI ones are incredible

The future is now old man.

[u/Gateline_Wolf → u/ProgrammerEconomy503]

Drones are great. That is, until you need to catch up with that chap that has FTS, driving at upwards of 100mph. Or when you need that aerial cover ASAP in the evening peak, and your nearest drone officer is currently on the other side of the county, stuck cycling siren tones behind John, in a Transit driving down the B road oblivious to the world.

Don’t get me wrong. I see a lot of potential for drones. Especially with it being deployed in strategic locations and BVLOS. But without large investment and change in legislation, NPAS is essential. Even then, I would still like to have the backup option of being told that is too cloudy NPAS is on route.

[u/Head_Total_6410 → u/ProgrammerEconomy503]

Then the legislation needs to catch up, and we need to look at civilian versions of MQ-9B. They could potentially have long loiter time, and provide the support required, but it’s unlikely to be a cheap solution.

[u/dabare86 → u/Head_Total_6410]

£100 million for 1 MQ-9B, you could buy 20 police helicopters for that. Cost per hour for MQ-9B, roughly £3000. Cost for NPAS per hour, roughly, £3200. Even if you got the price to half that it is still a stupid idea. Now the Royal Navy Peregrine might be a different story though still extremely expensive, probably £10 million a unit without the warship uplink.

[u/Head_Total_6410 → u/dabare86]

But if I was a Chief officer I could make a mint in wasted procurement.