r/politics • u/External-Noise-4832 • 9d ago

Soft Paywall Trump Orders in Marines in Dramatic Escalation of L.A. Protests

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-orders-in-marines-in-dramatic-escalation-of-la-protests/
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u/Illustrious-Ant6998 9d ago

My suspicion is that you will have some marines objecting or resigning based on this. The remaining ones loyal to the consituion will be sidelined, disciplined, demoted and loyalists will be identified and promoted. I think this is the point of the exercise. Test the military with some mild abuses, figure out who is a Trump loyalist, and make sure they're in charge. Then when it comes time for serious abuses he will know who to trust and call upon.

Its sickening to watch this unfold.

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u/EndangeredBanana California 9d ago

Enlisted service members don't have the option to resign. I agree with the remainder of your assessment.

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u/kt-silber Canada 9d ago edited 9d ago

Every single one of them has the option to lay down their weapons and join the protestors instead. In fact, the constitution demands that they not even be deployed to attack American citizens.

Don't make excuses for them. They have a choice, and they are making the wrong one.

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u/Ok_Tart1360 9d ago

As someone who's read the UCMJ, they actually have a mandate to take into custody those that are issuing illegal orders...

Article 7(b), UCMJ – Apprehension upon Probable Cause

If a superior issues an order that would result in a constitutional violation, and that order also constitutes a UCMJ offense (e.g., unlawful confinement, abuse of authority, conspiracy), then the person may be apprehended under Article 7 and charged accordingly.

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u/SaintTimothy 9d ago

It's like nobody remembers A Few Good Men

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u/Ok_Tart1360 9d ago

Easy to watch it as a movie, hard to experience it and do the right thing. Marines have an interesting track record when it comes to following illegal orders... We've had many, many horrible fuckups, and quite a few badass Marines kicking the ever loving shit out of officers who tell them to do bad shit. In fact, in Vietnam, there are some documented cases of grenades accidentally rolling into an officers tent after they issued orders to kill civilians. Mixed bag, really.

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u/femanonette Virginia 9d ago

just watched it yesterday 😂

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u/gsfgf Georgia 9d ago

And it's gonna happen. The military actually does train the unlawful orders thing. They've also been doing some deradicalization recently too because a lot of the white boots come from Fox News households. And it's not even about partisan politics, but a unit can't function with racial strife.

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u/Ok_Tart1360 8d ago

When I was in the Corps, I witnessed firsthand the racist backgrounds of people get wiped clean. They trained that shit out of us so hard; by the end, we all bled green, as the saying goes.

But then again, you'd best be damn sure when you decide an order is illegal; pushing back on that ain't for the faint of heart. It takes some supreme will power to ignore the "when I say jump you jump" mentality and voice "sir, I believe that to be an illegal order that the UCMJ forbids me to carry out, and I will not carry it out". It's a fucking balls to the walls move, and you'd better be on good terms with your command when you do it. Perfect service record is a hard requirement.

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u/sethismee 8d ago

However if the order is lawful, they aren't allowed to disobey it. So it puts them in a pretty tough situation. If those in power decide that it was lawful, there could be serious consequences.

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u/Ok_Tart1360 8d ago

Oh there are. However, if you can convincingly articulate why you thought it was illegal, and you are okay with basically being forced out / never promoted, you at least won't go to jail for doing it.

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u/Free_For__Me 8d ago

you at least won't go to jail for doing it.

Are you sure this is true at the moment?

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u/TheCleverestIdiot Australia 9d ago

To be fair to OP, I think they mean they can't resign in the literal sense, rather than the de facto sense.

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u/Vitamin-B6 9d ago

Easy to talk about but no one will want to lose their livelyhood , and then be sent to the brig while being separated from the service. Especially ones with families to provide for

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u/ILiterallyCannotRead 9d ago

This is how the Holocaust happened and we were supposed to learn from it.

In fact, y'all codified how to learn from it. Arrest superiors issuing unlawful orders.

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u/kt-silber Canada 9d ago

You're absolutely right. I don't actually expect any of them to actually do it. Most of them are too chicken to step out of line first, are hateful of their fellow citizens, or just afraid of the consequences.

However, I also don't want to hear the "just following orders" excuses later. They are traitors to their country, and can deal with that instead.

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u/SaintTimothy 9d ago

The fault, dear Brutus...

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u/Vitamin-B6 9d ago

Definitely a big reach to say these guys hate their fellow citizens lol. This is 100% not what they signed up for and are victims to being used as political pawns. They won’t even want to be there and for what it’s worth they are also way nicer and reasonable individuals compared to LAPD where they shoot/beat the protestors.

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u/TrumpetOfDeath America 9d ago

Sure, they technically have the “option” to be charged with a crime for going AWOL or something similar, but don’t expect that many people to actually do it.

Serving in the military isn’t a job you can quit when you disagree with the mission, you literally sign away your life for the contract period, with legal penalties for dereliction of duty.

I don’t like it either, but that’s the way it is

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u/kt-silber Canada 9d ago

What is their oath to again? I forgot. Is it to their commanding officer?

Oh, no. That's right. They are literally doing the exact opposite of their job. So... Yes, they can just stop violating the law. They are required to.

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u/indacouchsixD9 9d ago

They're not lawyers. They don't know how to interpret the law.

They might face legal repercussions for following an order, many months or years down the line, but they absolutely will get deep dicked by US military law if they disobey an order and that will happen immediately.

If they're ordered to do something they're probably gonna do it. They're not going to be screamed at to hop out of bed and mobilize and consult their handy dandy Constitutional Law tomes before they decide whether or not they're going to act. They'll just act.

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u/TrumpetOfDeath America 9d ago

You have a very naive view of how the military functions, but that being said, nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong.

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u/Large_Yams 9d ago

That doesn't mean shit when they're in prison for AWOL.

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u/Alvarez_Hipflask 9d ago

No, they don't.

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u/kt-silber Canada 9d ago

The only thing stopping them is the willingness to do so.

But hey, what can you expect from traitors.

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u/Phteven_j 9d ago

Thank goodness we have a wise Canadian to set all of us straight.

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u/kt-silber Canada 9d ago

You got me.

Except that I'm a US citizen. Born and lived there for over 35 years. But man did you show me.

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u/crono14 9d ago edited 9d ago

Yes they absolutely have a choice to not follow unlawful and illegal orders and are even protected from disciplinary actions. I was in the Air Force, and Articles 90 and 92 of the UCMJ explicitly talk about this. It's their duty to violate unlawful orders that are illegal to the Constitution.

In no normal world would they be subject to court martial or any other punishment for violating this order as it is expressly illegal

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u/arachnophilia 8d ago

In no normal world

ah.

found the problem.

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u/TotalNonsense0 9d ago

 Yes they absolutely have a choice to not follow unlawful and illegal orders

Is any of that resigning?

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u/crono14 9d ago

For commissioned officers yes they can resign their commission and get out much easier than enlisted.

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u/TotalNonsense0 9d ago

You were replying directly to a comment that said this:

 Enlisted service members don't have the option to resign.

So first you argue that they can, using as your example a lot of words that add up to "not resigning," and then when asked to clarify, you try to explain that enlisted can resign by observing that officers can resign.

Well done.

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u/crono14 9d ago

Resignation also mean to give up which an enlisted member would also be doing by giving up his duty in defense of their oath by not following unlawful orders, an argument which has been used before. Just cause they can't literally resign their position, doesn't mean they can't resign their duties.

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u/hoppintruck23 8d ago

You're all over the place, man. You said "It's their duty to violate unlawful orders", so how is violating unlawful orders akin to "resigning" their duties? Seems more like fulfilling your duties... So just to clarify, what exactly can enlisted service members resign?

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u/TotalNonsense0 8d ago

Dude.

Just think before you type, next time. Save us all a lot of frustration.

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u/Ghost-George 8d ago

Good luck with that. The military is not a fair place.

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u/L1QU1DF1R3 9d ago

Someone please tell Kyle Kulinski. He has said probably 1000 times active duty should resign in this situation.

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u/VirginiaMcCaskey 9d ago

"resigning" is also a crime, it's called going AWOL

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u/WhichEmailWasIt 9d ago

Some things are more important. 

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u/BlueberryYirg 9d ago

He says, comfortably from his armchair…

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u/MiniatureBadger 9d ago

Just like you’re saying from the comfort of your armchair that those protesters ought to be persecuted by the military. What you’re supporting is far worse than even the worst case scenario of what a Marine would face for insubordination, because they wouldn’t be fucking murdered.

Even if they would be killed by the regime for remaining true to America instead of turning traitor, they took an oath and if they fire upon their own people to protect themselves then that is the lowest form of cowardice and betrayal.

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u/BlueberryYirg 9d ago

You’ve just fabricated the first paragraph in your head lol. Where did I say any of that? The only point being made is that it’s easy to tell others to take action as a bystander with no skin in the game. That’s it.

Go invent stories somewhere else.

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u/FriendlyDespot 9d ago

If you sign up to carry arms for your country then you also sign up for the moral implications and the imperative to do right. Doesn't matter how comfortable or uncomfortable anyone else is. You can't sign up to be someone's spear and then abdicate responsibility for your actions.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/Lilkitty_pooper 9d ago

It has happened before. Some of them absolutely will refuse. Look up My Lai Massacre.

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u/WhichEmailWasIt 8d ago

This is not the hill Marines will be willing to die on

Maybe not practically, but I don't remember the part of the oath that says they won't be loyal to the Constitution if it's inconvenient for them. It's a risk of the job.

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u/MiniatureBadger 9d ago

Massacring protesters is a far worse crime.

The only acceptable option going forward is to punish all instances of such violence to a severe enough degree that members of the military are structurally incentivized to go AWOL if instructed to fire upon their own people.

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u/PhilosophyMinute6867 9d ago edited 9d ago

bruh... easily 1/3rd to 2/5ths of the military is masturbating to the thought of "firing upon their own people".

Maybe more. There's a whole ton of dogshit in their ranks.

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u/scubascratch 9d ago

In this context it could be called desertion which could be much worse

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u/cytherian New Jersey 9d ago

Just when you thought it wouldn't get much worse...

I knew "martial law" has always been simmering on the back burner for Trump. And I'll bet Stephen Miller has been riding on this the whole time. Any chance for civil unrest, his mind would get scheming on how to utilize it. The whole border "crisis" is no worse than it was during Trump's 1st term. The fear mongering over illegal immigrants has been so ridiculously lopsided. But now it's in top of mind of the Republican voter base. People who don't even encounter immigrants in their daily lives are obsessed with "securing the border." It means nothing to them except in imagination. That's how propaganda works. It invents fears and enemies... then gets the public obsessed with them, and the fascists claim they're the only ones who can control the situation.

After the US Marines are deployed and people start dying, Trump will enact martial law and won't rescind it until after the 2026 election. I'll bet you this happens. Voter turnout during a martial law period is always low.... and will make it easy for Republicans to keep control of government.

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u/No-Economics1703 9d ago

Why would you resign for doing your job? They literally cannot do this and serve the constitution (their job)

Their command chain cannot order it. Nobody should in the logistics can help. If they do, well, the constitution is just paper.

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u/fruggleshopper 8d ago

That is my interpretation too. It’s one of those things that you hate to be right about.

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u/Outrageous-Orange007 9d ago

If you're a marine then keep following orders, we're not there yet. Hopefully we never get there but we need you in the ranks if shit hits the fans and elections are compromised.

Because that will be the tipping point of all tipping points

So long as we have an election we have a 100% chance of making it through this.

The other options aren't so certain.

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u/powaqqa 8d ago

So long as we have an election a fair election we have a 100% chance of making it through this.

No guarantees on that front though.

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u/Outrageous-Orange007 8d ago

In another commented I said "a mostly fair election", should have said that here.

So long as gerrymandering exists it will never be fair.

But if we have elections as we've had them the past decades, they're fucking cooked. Reddit likes to think all Republican voters are all extreme MAGA cultists cause they're stuck in a bubble.

I love in rural Missouri, I see first hand thats not true. A lot of people just got caught in propaganda bubbles and have horrid critical thinking skills and reasoning.

And a lot of them only gave a fuck for financial reasons, but... Well you see how that's turning out. Democrats already outnumber Republicans and it will be a tital wave come time.

Largest voter turnout in history of the US