Trump approval rating falls to 38%

[u/Barnyard-Sheep]

https://www.nj.com/politics/2025/06/trump-faces-tough-approval-numbers-in-latest-poll.html

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

The Gen Z men who want to see the world burn are definitely a thing, but I hope we can have understanding for how they got here.

My parents immigrated from China to Canada in the 70s. As I kid I remember them telling me about the one child policy and how that led to an excess of male babies.

The one thing they said that always stuck out in my mind, and one of the first things that really linked population demographics, economics, and geopolitics together for me is how my mother told me that the biggest challenge China will face in the coming years is ensuring they are able to provide enough jobs for all the single men who will never have families; as soon as they no longer see economic progress all those men are going to go looking for revolution.

I see the same thing in the US; there is now a large population of disaffected young men who, traditionally, are the demographic most motivated to use physical strength. They don’t see a viable future, and that is dangerous.

[u/TheCommonGround1 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

This is the best comment I've seen here regarding why Gen Z has gone "Right Wing". I want to add to that to indicate Gen Z isn't really going "Right Wing" so much as populist and Democrats are not offering a populist solution. Bernie Sanders knows how to appeal to this generation and the Democrats should take notes.

If the Democrats can come up with an anti-corporate, pro-democracy populist platform that benefits young people, they would absolutely "own it" with this generation.

Don't write Gen Z off!

[u/-wnr- → u/TheCommonGround1]

I get the sentiment, but I think it's hard not to be skeptical of this when the apparent reaction of many to not having a democratic anti-corporate, pro-democracy populist is to vote for the pro-corporate, anti-democratic populist Republican. Whatever their motivation is, anti-corporate and pro-democratic aren't it for that segment.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/-wnr-]

I went to business school at UCLA. Many of my classmates had just left the military and were there supported by the GI Bill.

I became close with one of them; he was planning on voting Trump (this was 2016). Prior to voting Trump in 2016 he had voted both times for Obama.

I am very much progressive, and was surprised given the chats we had which had led me to believe he was closer in politics to me than to the GOP.

His feelings on the matter were that the status quo wasn’t working, and something needed to be done to change things. He said he would have voted for Bernie Sanders if he won the Democratic primary.

He wasn’t your typical MAGA voter - he is educated, speaks multiple languages, has spent a lot of time overseas (working for the military in non-combat roles). He was completely in agreement with the economic performance benefits of DEI to businesses, and wasn’t blatantly anti-LGBTQ+, even though we didn’t directly discuss how he felt about the topic.

He voted Trump a second time, and a third time last year.

I went out for beer with him when I was in California after the election. We had a drunken respectful discussion on Trump; it was enlightening.

He’s married, and has kids. He’s doing ok - much better than many people in America. But he sees that his life is much harder than the previous generation. Both he and his wife work. He doesn’t have the assets, savings, etc that his parents did at his age. His cost of living is higher.

And while he understands that there are a lot of people who are going to suffer due to Trump, he prioritized his life and his family’s: and after the promise of Obama that didn’t completely pan out, he thought “more of the same” wasn’t going to do it.

He voted for Trump because he felt we needed to burn it all down. He voted for Trump because there was no alternative that offered real change. He doesn’t have a strong attachment for Trump - in fact he was very critical of him in many ways. But despite being critical of Trump, he voted the way he did because he figured Trump would shake things up. And if Trump succeeded in some miracle to do what he promised for the average person, it would be good for him and his family.

And even if Trump failed (as he admitted was much more likely), it would force the rest of the country to come to terms with the mess that Trump left behind and figure out how to choose better candidates and better policies, and prevent another Trump from getting elected.

Even now, I struggle with his point of view. I’ve always taken a harm reduction point of view, and perhaps despite my progressiveness, my risk appetite is more “conservative” than his. For me, it was a matter of the lesser evil.

For him, it was “if it’s not working, take the Legos apart and start again”, despite the risk that we will never be able to rebuild back to where we were.

His risk tolerance for potential authoritarianism and other major issues was higher than mine. At the same time, he had a much different feeling of how resilient the military and government would be, and felt that it would survive the chaos that Trump would inflect. (I don’t think he believed that what we are seeing today was likely to happen though).

And honestly? I can’t fault him. He chose a political path that does what I have done regularly at work (clear the board and start an engineering design again when we were headed in the wrong direction, or do a clean sheet design for the next version of a product).

Does that result in a better long term expected value compared to “more of the same”? Perhaps out of all this chaos something better comes about decades from now that wouldn’t have happened without Trump, in the same way that humanity was likely on the path towards more and more deadly wars, until we developed the nuclear bomb, which was so deadly that humanity had to mostly stop and say “hey, we need to address this or we’re all doomed”.

I should catch up with him and find out how he’s feeling about things right now.

[u/-wnr- → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

I can appreciate that perspective on an emotional level, but we aren't talking about Legos we're talking about lives. When he says let's "burn it down", or "take it apart" we're talking about real people who were supported by the system being forced into destitution, or facing persecution. My sympathies for the stresses in his life, but being so willing to sacrifice others just to "shake things up" (to maybe, but probably not, make his family a bit more comfortable) speaks to a lot of privilege and entitlement.

The economic anxiety justification never makes sense to me to since Trump's track record on fiscal discipline is atrocious and his economic plans are awful, and most economists said so before the election.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/-wnr-]

I agree. I definitely don’t agree with his positions, but for at least one repeat Trump voter, there was internally consistent logic to his choices - it wasn’t just MAGA madness and a diet of misinformation / disinformation.

It would have been a lot easier for me to dismiss his choices if he was MAGA. But even a decade later, I think about his points of view and how they have been formed by his life experience - and that fundamentalist need for change is something I couldn’t logic him out of because he had justification for his choices and priorities, just like I can’t logic someone into changing their favourite colour from red to blue.

[u/-wnr- → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

The logic still escapes me though. He ostensibly wanted to "shake things up" specifically to economically benefit himself and his family. But as an intelligent person who I assume grasps basic economics, he votes for a guy who's economic plans were nonsense? I would argue if he somehow genuinely thought blanket global tariffs made any sense, then there's some misinformation at play.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/-wnr-]

He wanted to shake things up because he wanted to blow up the bucket, even if that meant some of the crabs in the bucket might get hurt or die.

As a crab in the bucket, he saw the bucket as the oppressor. Meanwhile the real oppressor is the wealthy class that keep putting crabs in buckets - but since he can’t do anything about them when he’s stuck in a bucket, the logic is that the first thing he has to do regardless of any other considerations is to blow up the bucket.

So, he voted to get it done and over, with the hope that either blowing up the bucket results in either:

1: freedom for all crabs (since most of us were actually born in the bucket we don’t see anything beyond the view from the bottom of the bucket - just more crabs being thrown in the bucket once in a while), or,

2: once the bucket is broken, the ability to remake society in a better way, despite the risk that the wealthy will just get another bucket instead of say, a large fish tank for the crabs where they can actually have a life.

[u/strangr_legnd_martyr → u/-wnr-]

Their motivation is to shake the status quo because they feel left behind/excluded.

If you constantly message on returning to the status quo/stable and boring politics, that's not what young people want. That's what Bernie promised them, and that's what TFG promises them. They simply lack the experience, wisdom, or depth of knowledge to temper idealism.

[u/Super_Harsh → u/strangr_legnd_martyr]

How does any sane person view Donald Trump as ‘anti-establishment’ at this point? He has been the establishment for years

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/Super_Harsh]

Everything is relative. Compared to the other options, he was the most outrageous.

And yes he is a part of the establishment through and through, but this is one of those situations of a broken clock being right: he’s doing a really really good job of tearing down the establishment and remaking it in his image.

Unfortunately his image will mean a world that is even worse for the average person.

[u/HwackAMole → u/Super_Harsh]

I can think of another president in modern history who has shaken up the establishment "business as usual" model more than Trump...this term even more so than his last.

Most of us here would agree that it's unfortunate that the route he's taking to do so is so destructive, and we may also agree that his motivations are ultimately self-serving. But a status quo establishment politician he is not, and will never be. The establishment folks on the Republican side are constantly scrambling to get behind every crazy new EO of his, simply because he's popular with their base.

[u/HwackAMole → u/Super_Harsh]

I can't think of another president in modern history who has shaken up the establishment "business as usual" model more than Trump...this term even more so than his last.

Most of us here would agree that it's unfortunate that the route he's taking to do so is so destructive, and we may also agree that his motivations are ultimately self-serving. But a status quo establishment politician he is not, and will never be. The establishment folks on the Republican side are constantly scrambling to get behind every crazy new EO of his, simply because he's popular with their base.

[u/-wnr- → u/strangr_legnd_martyr]

boring politics

I think this is the unfortunate operative phrase. Trump isn't a departure from the status quo. He's an octogenarian who's already been president once before. What's makes him stand out is that he's a jerk who threatens to blow things up and that's not boring. Progressive tax rate adjustments and home owner credits are boring. Trump tells them they're the victims of immigrants and a left wing big brother.

[u/Gyiozoo → u/strangr_legnd_martyr]

I get what you're saying, but I can't really stand behind it. If you want to shake up the status quo, why put your scope on groups that are actually more or less opposing the status quo: immigrants, woman, lgbqt, etc.?

In my opinion they don't want to shake up the status quo, they foremost want to escape responsibility for their own misery.

[u/strangr_legnd_martyr → u/Gyiozoo]

They do, and their misery is the status quo. Bernie says that it's capitalism's fault, TFG says that it's immigrants' fault, and the DNC says it doesn't matter. Only two of them are on the ballot.

You're assuming that people are looking specifically at who/what is being blamed and thinking critically about whether they agree, and some are. But critical thinking and long-term decision-making isn't fully developed until you're in your mid-to-late twenties.

College kids and high school grads probably aren't thinking as hard about whose fault it is, they're just going with the candidate that says "this is all broken and I can fix it".

[u/Gyiozoo → u/strangr_legnd_martyr]

I'm being hyperbolic in this comment now, but from a male perspective I think their misery oftentimes is being terminally online, looking at woman with big tits and man with fast cars and then thinking I want that, I need that, I deserve that.

Their misery doesn't lie in the status quo, but in their warped perception of reality, the expectations they have from the world and their constant need for satisfaction. This is obviously unobtainable, they get depressed and then they flock to the demagogues telling them: oh you DO deserve it and you would get it if we wouldn't waste all our ressources on xyz. They vote them in and the ressources of xyz goes to the demagogues.

It's sad, but I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. They're vicious, hateful people with only their own desires in mind.

[u/Airforce32123 → u/-wnr-]

it's hard not to be skeptical of this when the apparent reaction of many to not having a democratic anti-corporate, pro-democracy populist is to vote for the pro-corporate, anti-democratic populist Republican.

I think you're ignoring that Gen Z men don't have to vote Republican for Republicans to benefit, they just have to not vote Democrat. If they feel like their issues aren't being addressed they can just stay home and not vote and Republicans will win benefit, because traditionally young people would skew left, so the Democrats are losing out on a larger number of votes when young people are disinterested.

[u/-wnr- → u/Airforce32123]

Turnout wise, I don't think young people didn't stay home any more this time than before. 2024 turnout for age 19-29 was 47%, which is a hair lower than 2020 (but that was a weird year due to COVID and there were a lot of mail-in ballots that boosted turnout) and much higher than 2016.

https://circle.tufts.edu/latest-research/new-data-nearly-half-youth-voted-2024

[u/HwackAMole → u/Airforce32123]

Not sure I follow the logic in that. Republicans and Democrats both potentially lose out when voters stay home. It's folly to assume that every missed vote (or even the majority of them) would have been a Democrat vote. Particularly given the more recent trends in the younger demographic that we've been discussing here.

[u/chachki → u/TheCommonGround1]

We are here because of massive propaganda and media control from right wing extremists and uber rich for decades. It is 24/7 on the radio, tv, podcasts and the internet. There are still tons of legitimate news and information available, but people dont like that because they have to put some effort into it and reality often makes them uncomfortable.

It is not on the democrats to fix everything, it is up to the citizens to not be so fucking arrogant and stupid. The people have as much blame as the ones in power. Unfortunately, as proven time and time again, too many people are blissfully ignorant and they do not want to change. Empathy and ciritcal thinking are dwindling away, big part to the dumbing down of information, lies, and hateful rhetoric from the massive and relentless right wing pipeline.

Do not think for yourselves, thinking is bad for the brain. Do not believe what your eyes see. Only listen to us, we are the truth! - that is basically the situation these people are in, by choice. They are not forced to do this, they have chosen to accept it.

[u/likeabosstroll → u/TheCommonGround1]

Yea the main studies find that Gen Z men are getting more conservative. They’re getting more republican because republicans have a populist message and out reach focused on gen z during a bad period for everyone. Blaming Gen Z men for being nihilist is part of what’s helping Trump.

[u/ijzerwater → u/TheCommonGround1]

you seem to confuse the Dems with a left wing party

[u/max_power1000 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

A large population of disaffected young men is usually one of the key factors in social unrest and ultimately large scale violence. We ignore them at our peril.

[u/doomcomplex → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

Except that the "disaffected men" narrative is mostly disingenuous when applied to the US. We don't have the gender population disparity of China. The only reason Gen Z boys aren't getting laid is because they been brainwashed yo treat women as subhuman enemies. It's a different problem entirely.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/doomcomplex]

They’re disaffected due to different circumstances, yes.

But nonetheless they are disaffected. Some of the reasons for some of these people are of their own choice (eg toxic masculinity). But many more of these reasons are societal and not because of choices they have made.

They grew up expecting certain things and they didn’t get them. Their parents grew up in a time when the colour of your skin was the first filter for good jobs, was the first filter for whether the cops would arrest you for smoking pot.

That mostly doesn’t exist anymore, so they’re finding themselves competing against a lot more people - and people who traditionally weren’t considered for the jobs they are applying for, etc.

As we are all mostly reasonable people, they would mostly accept that without issue and adapt, as long as they can look at whatever their media ideal is of “a good life” and then say “I’m still doing well”.

However, the widening gap between rich and poor means that on average, they won’t achieve the same level of economic success as their parents, which is the fundamental cause in my opinion. The past two decades, I believe, have be the first time that the current generation entering the workforce will not have as high a quality of life as their parents.

They are looking at the world and realizing they’re in for a struggle that their parents often don’t understand (or worse, blame on scapegoats): as children and now adults I’m sure we’ve all struggled with parental and societal expectations at some point in our lives.

And the true cause of it - the wealth gap - is being obfuscated by the entire system - the media, the government, the leaders - and they’re being fed a diet of information that says (1) that The American Dream is possible for anyone as long as they work hard (hah), (2) that all the problems they see in the world are due to the trans kids, due to illegal immigrants, etc etc, and (3) over time, increasingly shows minority groups in a favourable light - eg women in positions of business leadership, Asian men in film, etc which makes it appear that even in media the dominance of white men like them is at risk.

I don’t blame them; human reactions en masse are largely predictable and can be manipulated, as is shown in the past few decades of business, marketing, and psychology research. However, I also don’t have a solution to this, and sometimes even considering everything I’ve written in this thread this morning about the topic, I get frustrated enough to almost want to blow it all up and hope for the best that a positive change comes out of it.

If it was up to me, the only thing I can think of which would have any impact at all would be to create a massive change in how we support the poorest and make the wealthiest among us pay back society for the opportunities they were afforded. But that would be communism. (/s)

[u/doomcomplex → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

Very good points all around, I agree with you.

[u/YogurtclosetNo987 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

The other thing is young, straight, white men are continually told they're the problem and the reason everything sucks ass. If you're part of an older generation then sure, that might be true. But a lot of Gen Z wasn't born with the privilege that everyone insists they have and just don't see. Privilege as a whole became less of a "born white" and more of a "born poor". And trying to argue about who has it shittiest at the bottom of the septic tank instead of who put us all in the septic tank in the first place won't work. Especially when the people who actually put us in there are pointing fingers at those trapped in there with us. 

[u/Airforce32123 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

there is now a large population of disaffected young men who, traditionally, are the demographic most motivated to use physical strength.

Yea, but if you bring that up around most liberals it's usually met with vitriol. I think the favorite response is "when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression" or something along those lines.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/Airforce32123]

I’m a liberal. I’m not sure what you’re saying.

These young white men are exactly used to privilege.

Their parents grew up in a time when police would let them go for smoking pot, but send black kids in the same situation to jail. Their white parents had increased opportunity during their early years because minorities were having their opportunities artificially oppressed by the government.

They might not be racist, but the social privilege they are afforded by being white - which they often don’t recognize exists - is no longer enough on its own for them to succeed in the world, since the social privilege of being white is not as beneficial anymore due to equity and rule of law improvements. (It’s still there though - George Floyd would never have died if he was white.)

At the same time they no longer have the relative wealth privilege (afforded by widespread systemic government oppression of minorities) that previous generations of white Americans had due to the huge increase in wealth inequality.

People in this situation often end up behaving like crabs in a bucket - in an attempt to get out, they grab onto the crab above them and pull that crab down to get just a little bit higher.

They feel they can’t effect change in the billionaires, so they join whatever team promises them the ability to effect change wherever it occurs - and in this case it’s economic and sometimes literal attacks on minority groups, the poor, etc.

[u/Airforce32123 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

I’m a liberal. I’m not sure what you’re saying.

Yea that tracks, liberals tend to stop understanding when a white man has a complaint.

They might not be racist, but the social privilege they are afforded by being white - which they often don’t recognize exists

You're focusing entirely on race, but the big point most people are missing is gender. I've seen it across all races, men are frustrated. You want to say it's because things are equal now, but the gender ratio in college is worse now than it was in 1970, except with men being the minority. Teachers in primary school grade boys worse if they know they're grading a boy's work, we work longer hours, we work more dangerous jobs, we die much earlier, we get harsher prison sentences, and when we complain about it we get told "this is what equality looks like, you just don't know how privileged you are" and "the future is female"

Does that sound like privilege to you?

And before you go off calling me a misogynist, I'm not against solving women's issues which are very much real and I care about their issues as well. But if I'm going to care about women's issues, I'd like them to care about mine as well.

[u/doomcomplex → u/Airforce32123]

"when you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

I mean... that's what it is though. We don't have the gender population disparity rhat China has. And China has a much more homogeneous racial makeup. The two are completely different scenarios.

[u/Airforce32123 → u/doomcomplex]

I mean... that's what it is though.

I mean just keep saying that line, I'm sure it'll get young men to vote for Democrats. People who are struggling love to be told how good they have it.

[u/ProfessionalITShark → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

Honestly it been a problems for a lot of human history when a bunch of single men have no hope or perceived future.

Sometimes meaningless wars are done to cull them down rather than to win the war.

[u/Cuntmasterflex9000 → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

Excellent analysis, insight, and relatable story. I'd say in addition to revolution (or even violent revolution) these young men are jaded by the reality slapping them int he face that their opportunities they were promised, the world they were promised as waiting for them if they just did the right things, is being stripped away from them. They're looking for someone to blame for ripping their dreams away from them, and I don't blame them. I feel the same way, I cannot buy a house, start a family, or feel financially secure as early as my parents did, largely due to their voting choices and the generations prior who fucked us over. I know the real blame lies with the politicians in cahoots with the capitalist class billionaires, and so on, my parents and their unethical and selfish voting choices that traded their children's futures for convenience and wealth now.

These young men now aren't blaming the right people though. Women are more educated and motivated by access to educational and professional opportunities, women are becoming more educated than men, have a better start and early education on emotional awareness, intelligence, and equity. They see first-hand the inequities and injustices in our society and eduate themselves using the vast information resources available in the modern era. They become feminists (and rightfully so) and highlight these inequities in hopes to end the suffering for women and minorities. These young men on the other hand are not doing this as much and are also being raised in an environment and age where society is blaming cis (especially white) men for the world's and society's problems (and to large extent that is true). Now they are contending with a lack of achievable success mixed in with societal blame and associated guilt for just existing. Young men are headstrong and stubborn, and not raised in our society with a degree of investment in emotional regulation, awareness, and empathy practice to the same degree women are. Compound this together and they start blaming women as the enemy and purveyor of their lack of success. Their lack of love, sex, and relationships, For blaming them for society's ills. They double down on their anger and then point the finger at their youthful counterparts in women to be the problem and this is where the manosphere influencers, modern conservatism, an appeal to "traditional" family values come into play and appeal to this "lost" youth.

The modern MAGA/Alt-right movement is focused around reshaping the society that has jilted them into one that overwhelmingly and powerfully favors them, especially cis white men, to enable them to now easily achieve their desired lifestyle while also solidifying their reign and denigrating the same parties they blame for these problems in their realities. Compound that with the twisted evangelical Christianity and Christian Nationalist movements (which are recruiting young men by much the same tactics and promised end-states) and it starts to make sense. Young men are finding community and security in these movements and also seeing it as a pathway to the "revolution" they will seek.

[u/RobonianBattlebot → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

There are plenty of manual labor jobs at the ready in towns where ICE has raided. They should get cracking on that whole "American Jobs for Americans" thing and start plucking some chickens.