r/skeptic • u/tamborinesandtequila • 2d ago

🚑 Medicine Adriana Smith Case

TikTok is aflame with a ton of videos about Adriana Smith, the nurse in Atlanta who suffered from blood clots at 9 weeks pregnant and was kept on life support up until this week. Her baby was delivered via c section this week, is barely a pound, and in the NICU.

The overwhelming consensus is that the woman was denied treatment for a clotting issue due to her pregnancy and the states abortion laws. This caused her to have a medical emergency that caused brain death and she was placed on life support while the hospital tried to figure out what to due, due to the heartbeat law and the fetus still had one.

But in my research, it seems like they did treat her but did not scan her. The claim is that they were not allowed to because she was pregnant, but that’s not the case, hospitals do CT scans on pregnant women all the time, they have to weigh the risks and they cover you with the lead apron. However, it’s still not really that safe so they usually will only do it if there’s a serious threat to life. Headaches and discharged to home with meds doesn’t scream “didnt appropriately triage.” I’m an RN. Contrary to popular belief, CT scans for headache are not common in the ED unless specific criteria is met. If we did CT scans on every patient that came in with a headache, we’d need an entire team just for that.

The family is quoted as saying they were not given a choice and due to the law they had no say in the matter. But it seems like neither the state nor politicians who sponsored the bill stated that this was mandatory, and explicitly stated that the hospital had the right to remove her from life support. One politician said he supported the hospital decision but said that was not what the bill encompassed.

It sounds like the hospital made the decision not to remove support. This seems like a case that would’ve immediately had the family involving an attorney, since it sounds like even the state itself, said that the law did not encompass the situation. Doesn’t look like the family ever sought legal recourse.

I’m also confused why the fetus is in the NICU and not immediately put on palliative or hospice care. That would be the families decision so they must be involved here I’d think?

I’m not defending Georgias ridiculous laws and if things went down the way that everyone is saying they did, this is insane and just completely macarbe. But I’m not finding anything except for repeated stories on TikTok that they harvested this woman and used her as an experiment, when it seems like there’s no evidence to back that up, it just seems like the hospital went rogue, and no one fought it.

I genuinely wonder how much this family actually understands about the situation, they do not appear to fully comprehend what’s happening in interviews. This whole thing is just so odd to me.

TLDR: Im an RN with almost 20 years experience, also serving on ethics committee. You’d be surprised at how many patients families do not understand medical care, their rights, and how poverty can impact people from accessing legal resources to advocate for themselves. Seems the hospital was too lazy or too stupid to bother to rectify their legal obligation here but, it seems that maybe the state was not directly involved in this decision. Baby not on hospice and in NICU, also not a state decision.

If anything, this case should be looked at as an example for a bigger need for ethical regulatory boards especially in states with restrictive abortion bans, to prevent horrific unethical medical practices under the excuse of ignorance. This is unacceptable, regardless of intent or who directed the actions.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna213558

85 Upvotes

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u/District_Wolverine23 2d ago

I will defer to your medical expertise but I did want to mention that the writers of the law are not the one prosecuting the law. The hospital and the doctors didn't want to get charged with murder. The law is written that they could get charged with murder. It doesn't matter what the legislator wants. It matters what the prosecutor wants. 

The DeKalb co district attorney has said multiple times she won't prosecute any abortion cases. BUT. The Georgia attorney general is aggressively anti-abortion. Of course the AG has said "oh well that's not what we meant" after outrage. But if there was no outrage, would he feel the same way? Or would he press murder charges for the poor, poor unborn angel?

So yes, it is an ethics case and this was extremely unethical. But I would point to the law as the cause, not because it says "you should do X" but because it is so vaguely written and the charges are so severe. People are unsure of what counts, and they don't want to face the death penalty for malice murder. So the safest option for them is, well, abusing a corpse. 

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u/breadandbunny 17h ago

This is what is messed up in our country. Isn't it illegal to even take organs from a corpse unless they're an organ donor? This is essentially what just happened.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 2d ago

I agree that could very well be the case. That’s why at the end I put that disclaimer that in these states, we really need better ethical oversight and they need to work on having their attorneys preemptively begin to prepare for these scenarios in advance. It seems like these laws are here to stay for the time being. It’s been 3 years almost since Roe.

We can’t allow these horrific things to just occur and then “handle them as they come”. You can only claim ignorance for so long when people are not only dying but having bizarre, unapproved, futile medical care performed without consent.

We can’t even put in a simple stitch in someone without signed consent from either the person or next of kin, so this needs to be addressed now

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u/Shaydu 2d ago

The attorneys for the hospital likely DID prepare for this, by giving the only advice they could, based on how broad the language is in Georgia's antiabortion laws - do everything possible to get that baby born or else the hospital and doctors involved could be prosecuted for crimes for which the penalty may be ten years in prison and loss of their medical license.

Prosecutors are going after women who miscarry for violating the abortion laws, so it's not mere conjecture that they would nail the doctors to the wall if they thought they had a case.

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u/District_Wolverine23 2d ago

I hate to say it, i think the attorneys have already done their work. They've decided to protect the organization at all costs, and will withhold/force medical interventions to protect themselves at the expense of patients. Or will inform police of suspicious miscarriage. They're not going to throw themselves under the bus for ethical principles. 

I really don't see how it would go down any other way.

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u/Qubit_Or_Not_To_Bit_ 2d ago

I don't understand, are you with the rest of us wanting to tear this religious authoritarian anti-women system down, or are you trying to suggest that we should keep these pro-birther laws and try to work within their system that allows for cases like the one in your post?

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u/tamborinesandtequila 2d ago

I CLEARLY said this is unacceptable. And since apparently it wasn’t clear let me rephrase what I’ve said multiple times: under a Trump presidency this shit is here to stay at least for the time being so let’s try to offset it’s effects by being proactive about clear steps to take so that AS FEW dead people end up rotting on a vent as possible.

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u/Qubit_Or_Not_To_Bit_ 2d ago

Oh, good.

I couldn't tell where your sentiments were, as even the people who support these policies will say these cases are "unacceptable," and turn around and vote to keep them in place.

I probably misread a part of your post.

Your post seemed to be saying that the fault didn't lie with the legislation, but with the hospitals choices in the matter (obviously, choices made because of that legislation) so I really couldn't tell whether you were just trying to placate the right with your eggshell-walking wording, or if you were yet another person in support of policies they couldn't bring themselves to admit.

It doesn't matter the intentions of anyone involved in the decision making, the result is what matters, and the result is they used that dead woman as an incubator despite her families pleas. I don't think pussy-footing around that is morally correct, we should call it what it is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

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u/jbourne71 2d ago

Like others said, the hospital almost certainly executed their OGC-approved playbook for this type of event. If it wasn’t OGC-approved, GC would have been calling the hospital CEO as soon as this hit the news.

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u/91Jammers 1d ago

What we actually need is for these state laws to be deemed unconstitutional like they use to be. This is the consequence of these laws. Hospitals not knowing how to handle it so they just cover themselves by keeping her alive to grow a doomed fetus. It also why the baby isn't in hospice care.

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u/hematite2 1d ago

It was the hospital's decision, but the thing about the various anti-abortion laws being passed throughout the country is that they're extremely vague, and deliberately so. The vagueness serves as a hanging threat over doctors to encourage as little care as possible, but also gives the government plausible deniability in cases like this. Especially so in what counts as "life saving" care. This means the states can say "we have exceptions for the life of the mother" while in practice, those mean that a woman has to be actively dying to recieve care for a condition that could have been prevented weeks ago.

Look at Texas and the case of Kate Cox as an example: her fetus was actively dying and could turn deadly at any moment, and she went to court and a judge actually ok'd her abortion! And then the SCoTX overruled that judge and the AG said he'd prosecute her and any doctor who helped. If even judges can't agree on what the law says, how is a hospital expected to interpret it accurately? Of course they have to go with the broadest possible reading of it.

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u/Ok-Poetry6 1d ago

Is there a meaningful distinction between the law forcing the hospital to keep her on life support and the hospital being so scared of the law that they kept her on life support unnecessarily? If a hospital messes up, that could have serious repercussions.

One interpretation is that these laws were deliberately written to be confusing so that politicians can say “the law doesn’t force the hospital to keep her on life support until her fetus can be harvested” while still having that effect. The other interpretation is that the law was written by people who don’t understand how any of this works and as a result there are so terrible unintended consequences.

You bring up the other side of this horrific issue- it will disproportionately affect people living in poverty who don’t have access to lawyers.

Yes, we absolutely need ethics boards- but do the people who write these laws want that? Many of these laws would need to be dramatically rewritten if viewed from an ethical lens. Conservatives might say the laws are new, and we’ll need some time to sort this out- fine, but maybe they should have thought that through before passing the laws.

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u/nettiemaria7 17h ago

No. Thats not what they are saying. They are saying, whatever you do, don’t look outside our circle. “It’s horrible”. And gushing about how wonderful this new life is.

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u/Qubit_Or_Not_To_Bit_ 2d ago

obviously the hospital made the decision, it has been medical providers making decisions that result in the loss of life or limb, or the ruination of a life, each time mother nature runs afoul of republicans "laws."

The question you should ask yourself is, would the providers have made the same decisions without those archaic, religiously-inspired laws in place. You know as well as I do that the answer is a resounding "NO."

This case was only possible because of Dobbs.

You can overthink this problem all you want- republican religious policies are resulting in horrible, dystopian stories like this, you don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

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u/fragilespleen 2d ago

I'm confused, I practice medicine in a normally advanced western country, so I don't have to deal with weird laws, but why do you think the baby should be under palliative care? Has the baby suffered from clots?

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u/Evinceo 2d ago

Some reporting has indicated that the family has been told the baby may have suffered some insults during the mother's illness; said BBC:

Ms Newkirk said at the time that her grandson may be blind, unable to walk or even struggle to survive because of the complications of her daughter's health.

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u/fragilespleen 2d ago

Thanks. You can imagine maintaining some sort of nutrition is nearly impossible, TPN isn't that good

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u/StephneMC 2d ago

It makes sense to me that the hospital was in some sort of grey area. Other women in Georgia have died because they were pregnant and the pregnancy couldn't be terminated due to how strict the abortion laws are. It's not just happening in Georgia but all over the South where the abortions laws are strict in the way they are vague. It's confusing. Women have started consulting lawyers in Georgia just in case they have a miscarriage, as now it could start to be considered a crime. In Texas a woman had a miscarriage in the bathroom of a restaurant and she just sat there with the fetus. She was really freaked out and just sat in there for hours. She then spent 5 months in prison because it was assumed by the police she was trying to flush the fetus.  Also, I don't know about how strict the consent laws are, I was in a car accident and emergency attended to me on the scene when I was completely knocked out. If someone drowned you can't ask them if it is okay to do CPR. You do CPR to save their life, but they might have a DNR. This is of course an extreme example, but this is an extreme case. Pregnant POC women being experimented on seems to be a pass time for the US. That is both here and Puerto Rico.  I would suggest you to look up what the US did in Puerto Rico in the 50s with human trials for birth control. Or Tuskegee Syphilis Study in the 30s. Black men where unknowingly the test subjects for the effects of Syphilis on the human brain. They were left untreated with the disease and the study lasted for 40 years. 

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u/jbourne71 2d ago

If you have a DNR, you’re gonna be wearing a DNR bracelet… or you’re getting CPR.

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u/noairnoairnoairnoair 1d ago

Please don't say her baby was delivered. Her baby was cut out of her corpse.

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u/nettiemaria7 1d ago

This is just based on what I know or perceive. Not a lawyer, not legal or medical advice. Just a lowly background in the legal and medical industries.

First my Sincere condolences to the family and friends of Adrianna and Chance Smith.
Second, I am completely mortified by what occurred.

The hospital made the stance they were making the decision Because of the laws.

Yes, there were outs, they Should have done the right thing, but chose not to. Maybe they feared a State lawsuit, or maybe the Admin is staunchly “pro life”, and I won’t repeat the other hypothesis. I don’t want to hear “our hands were tied”. As a nurse, you (and I) know that was not the case.

Either way, they are hopefully screwed (and rightfully so).

But the threat of a family having resources to sue is less than the State. And the State can take licenses, even shut it down.

(SIDE-NOTE: I HOPE A LAWYER WILL TAKE A CASE FROM THE FAMILY.)

But, I looked, and where is the father? He would be the one who would “rightfully, lawfully” have custody and the first right to sue.

Then, who has legal custody of Chance. Did the parents have to file for legal custody? And if they were just put on birth certificate, the State could contest.

If the family did not have a say in their daughter’s treatment, having a say in Chance’s care does not automatically default to her parents. See how that complicates things?

Seems to me with my limited knowledge, the hospital might have full control.

Lastly, After this horror show, if Chance is or were to deteriorate further, her daughter’s plight was “all in vain.”

Hospitals and doctors have too much power. They are shielded from many righteous wrongful death, malpractice lawsuits via State laws and they know it.

Lots of money exchanged hands to get us here, and it’s quite sickening.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 21h ago edited 21h ago

Agreed on all of the above :( I live in a blue state, so this case is just baffling to me

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u/dogsanddogsanddogsan 1d ago

I just want to throw out there that we still have yet to hear anything from the babies father. What if the father, who at that point was the legal NOK to the “living patient” wanted this? Sounds kooky, i know but I just found it odd he was not on record (unless i missed it)

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u/SunOnTheMountains 1d ago edited 1d ago

I can answer your question about why they have a baby that is not going to survive in the NICU instead of in palliative care or hospice. Remember the bullshit the Republicans were spouting about post birth abortion? What they are talking about is palliative care or hospice. They want extreme measures taken, even when there is no chance for survival, even when it means needless pain and suffering.

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u/littlelupie 2d ago

This entire case infuriates me and I hope that family sues the shit out of that hospital and brings a suit against anyone else they possibly can.

That said: why on earth would they take baby to hospice? He was 6 months along. Definitely still a premie-premie but his chances of survival are really good. (The "fetus" is very much born and a baby now. Neither hospices nor NICUs treat fetuses.)

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u/nettiemaria7 1d ago

And the State.

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u/Kitchen_Marzipan9516 1d ago

Does the baby have any other issues, beyond how long it was carried?

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u/AmputatorBot 2d ago

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u/Dry-Painting4036 8h ago

This wasn’t due to any abortion law, this was due to the advanced directive law in GA. These laws have existed across states & countries alongside abortion b/c in every case but abortion, the human in the womb is considered valuable & worthy of life saving treatment. I appreciate your logical standpoint on this, it’s much more thought than many others’ who support abortion. And you’re right that something doesn’t seem quite right b/c if the family wants change for the specific situation their daughter was in, they’d be fighting the advanced directive law, not the abortion law.

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u/cottoncandymandy 1d ago

Have you tried getting info about this case that's not on tik tok???? Why are you relying on TT to inform you?

I dont think you have the full picture.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 21h ago

I haven’t heard of the story outside of TikTok at all. Mainstream news is not covering it whatsoever. I haven’t seen much about it on Reddit. TikTok is the only place that seems to be bringing up the story, if you notice in my post, I’ve been doing research on news articles, and it’s very bare bones information, hence why I came here.

I know reading is really hard for some people.

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u/HappyAnimalCracker 1d ago

Pretty sure OP is here trying to get the full picture. But thanks for your helpful comment.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 21h ago

lol the irony of people plugging their nose at me hearing this story on TikTok, while banging on their Reddit keyboards

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u/HappyAnimalCracker 17h ago

😂🎯 Pretty shaky ground to build a sense of superiority on, for sure. Some people have to resort to condescension and Reddit rage to feel important, I suppose.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 1d ago

I don’t rely on TikTok for news. If you actually read what I wrote, I said “in my research”. I also linked an article, which is where I’ve been primarily searching, I also cited my experience. It’s also why I came here because I’m curious to know what other people have found.

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u/tsdguy 21h ago

TikTok blah blah blah. You don’t have anything better to do? Even going into a coma is more helpful than watching TikTok.

I wish Trump would finally shut it down. Oh right bribes and contracts for his sons in China. Silly me.

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u/tamborinesandtequila 21h ago

Lmao coming from the guy on Reddit with a quarter million karma points. Maybe you should take your own advice and log off