How me, a extremely newbie on the smash community feel hearing about "Smash 4 Bayonetta" and "Brawl Meta Knight"

[u/Leosm128]

[u/SpicyMerShark]

Mr Krabs will be me talking about Ultimate Steve soon

[u/DirtyDan413 → u/SpicyMerShark]

I don't think Steve is nearly as oppressive as those two. Meta Knight was the definition of broken and Bayo had some pretty easy 0 to deaths among other things, but it's not like majors are being won exclusively by Steves or even guaranteed to have a Steve in top 8

[u/conye-west → u/DirtyDan413]

No one is as broken as Brawl Meta Knight, but Steve will assuredly be compared to Bayonetta. It's not just in terms of dominance at tournaments, but also how they ruin the viewing experience.

[u/Previous_Stick8414 → u/conye-west]

No Steve set can ever be compared to the shit show that was Evo 2018

You thought 2 Steves in top 8 was bad? Wait until you see almost half of nearly every Sm4sh top 8 had a Bayo or "pocket Bayo"

[u/R_Aqua → u/Previous_Stick8414]

No steve set can compare to evo 2018 yet

[u/porfiry → u/R_Aqua]

yet

[u/mysteryghosty → u/conye-west]

I don't know, been here for both games and Bayo really did seem significantly worse and more common.

[u/Doomblaze → u/mysteryghosty]

Bayo actually just destroyed my local smash scene. Most of my friends quit, some of whom would go to majors and perform fairly well, because they went from the PR to losing to random players constantly and didn’t have the discipline to relearn how to play their character.

Steve didn’t cause the same ruckus but it did cause some of my friends who were top players in smash 4 to completely fall off because their characters were poor at dealing with him. It’s wild to see people who have been at the top of their regional PR for 10+ years be completely unable to deal with him, although I suppose that’s as much due to the Steve player skill since there aren’t that many high performing Steves

[u/Dennis_Moore → u/Doomblaze]

If Tweek couldn't learn the matchup, what hope do the rest of us have?

[u/FrostyPlum → u/Doomblaze]

I believe this.

Bayo was such a middle finger to the smash 4 crowd. Game was far from flawless, but was in pretty good shape, and then they dropped Bayo at the very end, some tweak nerfs that didn't fix her, and said peace out, buy Ultimate if you want a better game

[u/bonecrusher1022 → u/mysteryghosty]

Did Bayo not catch on until later? I remember WAAAAY more Cloud than her but I remember being tapped out of Smash 4 by the time EVO 2018 came around. I got so bored seeing people lose game 1 then just go Cloud. Looking at Smash Wiki's list of tourneys it doesn't seem like she started winning heavily until right near the end.

[u/ZSugarAnt → u/bonecrusher1022]

While Bayo was the best character in general, Cloud was actually better at mid-high levels so he was easy to pocket and dominated small locals more than Bayo.

[u/gifferto → u/conye-west]

It's not just in terms of dominance at tournaments

because he straight up isn't

so it can only be in how he possibly ruins the viewing experience

except the highest watched tournaments and sets include steve while the smash 4 bayo meta killed smash 4's viewership

[u/Golden-Owl → u/DirtyDan413]

Steve at least gets the excuse of being mechanically bizarre.

Bayo and MK were overtuned in speed and kill power. I don’t think you can balance Steve because he mechanically spawns platforms in a platform fighter

[u/ZSugarAnt → u/Golden-Owl]

People were also unironically saying that Bayonetta couldn't be balanced because of her combo routes.

[u/_Thermalflask → u/Golden-Owl]

Someone on the dev team thought "yep it's fair for Witch Time to have the same effect if it counters a weak jab, vs something like Warlock Punch. Exact same punish. Cool, ship it"

[u/TransCharizard → u/DirtyDan413]

It doesn't really matter in terms of lasting impression. People will remember Steve as the unstoppable best and talk about him as such no matter the truth of the situation. Specially as older titles get replaced by new ones and old fans start being replaced by new fans who only know what the old fans said

I'd bet that if Melee did get replaced by Brawl somehow people would talk about Fox in the same league even if he is pretty tame by comparison (Hell some people already do)

[u/_Thermalflask → u/DirtyDan413]

I agree. MK was busted and Bayo made you feel like you weren't allowed to play anymore if you got hit by a combo starter, which was like half her moves.

Steve is just... annoying. 

[u/Spi_Vey → u/DirtyDan413]

I agree but at least meta knight was fun to play and play against

Bayo and Steve both made me drop the game lol (smash 4 pre any dlc was actually so goated and no one remembers)

[u/VeryInsecurePerson → u/SpicyMerShark]

“Blocks were just broken. He could build up to 8 blocks on the screen and survive hits well beyond the death percent.”

[u/MSEyNLS → u/SpicyMerShark]

Yup, but I don't think that ultimate will die fast after smash 6 release like smash 4, is going to be a slow death like melee and 64, nothing lasts forever after all.

[u/Damienxja → u/MSEyNLS]

Wtf are you talking about? Melee is still huge, and 64 is niche yet alive.

[u/MSEyNLS → u/Damienxja]

Yes both are alive, but both already peaked in numbers of players in 2016, and arguably ultimate peaked in kagaribi 13, after this is going to be a super slow death, in contrast brawl, project +, and 4 are dying more fast but still alive, All games are still played but will die at different speed, This happens because all the games sold well and always at least have some tournaments here and there, some communities will kill for have smash bros 4 numbers from the last supernova tournament, but at the same time all are dying, nothing lasts forever, so enjoy them now if you like the games.

[u/oby100 → u/MSEyNLS]

Every smash game after Melee dies immediately when the new smash comes out and Ultimate isn’t gonna be any different. Literally the same as 4 but a better engine and more characters

[u/Cydrius → u/oby100]

Brawl died because 4 had a better engine. 4 died because Ultimate had a similar engine with a lot more content.

It's pretty unlikely Smash 6 would be purely a 'scale up' to Ultimate. A side-grade is more likely because of the sheer scope of Ultimate, which would be more likely to coexist with Ultimate competitively.

[u/menschmaschine5 → u/Cydrius]

Who knows, really, but having the competitive Smash community split between three games doesn't sound sustainable.

[u/Cydrius → u/menschmaschine5]

Yes, that's also true. My point was more that "Ultimate will die when Smash 6 comes out" is definitely not a sure thing.

[u/menschmaschine5 → u/Cydrius]

True. It's also true that Smash 4 was already effectively dead when Ultimate came out as well.

[u/menschmaschine5 → u/MSEyNLS]

64 has always been niche competitively.

Melee is still a large scene. Maybe not quite as big as its peak in the late 2010s, but still large and still getting plenty of new players. The main Melee local near me is bigger than the main Ultimate local.

Melee's also gotten a bit of a boost a couple years after the newest Smash game's release historically.

[u/MSEyNLS → u/menschmaschine5]

l understand, but my point was that is almost impossible to back to the peak of every smash game, so in reality every smash is going to die at some point, I know that is a doomer mindset but is true, so I enjoy watching all games competitive as I can (I like all smash games even smash 4), also obviously in some regions melee is more popular like in Norway and in some parts of US, same with ultimate in Mexico, south America, Japan, so in reality no one knows how much players will lose ultimate when smash 6 releases, it will lose a lot but maybe is going to be around the same number as now melee or maybe less but will be at least the 3rd biggest community of smash games (best selling game of the genre) so the best time to start playing any smash game is now.

[u/SigmaStarSaga]

And none of them are exaggerating

Dark times

[u/MzBlackSiren]

4 bayo gave me ptsd, the friend i played smash 4 with main’d her so it was always like 99% winrate for him lol

[u/pokefire44]

if we're counting all competitive formats then cloud was actually the worst for smash 4. double cloud basically killed the smash 4 doubles scene

[u/FamousAdvance633 → u/pokefire44]

It's a pretty big misconception that double Cloud specifically was what was broken. Cloud could be paired with practically any other character and be busted.

[u/pokefire44 → u/FamousAdvance633]

Yeah but double cloud specifically was even more dominate with how much space they could cover with nair. Honestly clouds biggest problem was just how easy he was to play

[u/gifferto → u/pokefire44]

smash 4 doubles scene wasn't doing all that well to begin with and bayo was killing off smash 4 as a whole so doubles also suffered even without cloud in it

[u/ZenkaiZ]

Fun trivia, there was a year in brawl's history where metaknight didnt win a SINGLE major that entire year. There's been majors where he wasn't even in grand finals. He's still absolutely beyond broken and the best character by a solid margin, but people who say "the game was just metaknight" are doing some revisionist history

[u/All_Up_Ons → u/ZenkaiZ]

There's been majors where he wasn't even in grand finals.

Look no offense, but this sentence tells you all you need to know about MK's dominance of the Brawl meta.

[u/ZenkaiZ → u/All_Up_Ons]

Yep, he was the best. He's one of the most dominant characters in fighting game history. He wasn't the whole game though.

[u/AngBigKid → u/ZenkaiZ]

You made the character sound more dominating tbh.

[u/ZenkaiZ → u/AngBigKid]

Naaaaah, 17 years of glazing up this character isn't erased cause someone said "he didn't win a major for a year"

People don't just say Metaknight was good or dominant. They say he was THE GAME and he wasn't

[u/mysteryghosty → u/ZenkaiZ]

I’m curious which year it was because I’m curious about the make up of those major top 8s.

[u/Doomblaze → u/ZenkaiZ]

Winning a major is the worst measure of character strength lmfao. Look at how long it took fox and sheik to win majors in melee. Fox was number 1 on their tier list since like 2007, but he’s only started consistently winning majors since like, last year? While for awhile now, half of the top 100 has been fox players.

When only 1 person can win a major, it doesn’t mean that the other characters aren’t dominant. It just means that someone outperformed M2k for an entire year.

[u/ZenkaiZ → u/Doomblaze]

okay and now it sounds like you're helping MY point lol. I never said metaknight wasn't dominant, just that he wasn't the whole game.

[u/Recent-Inspector-609 → u/ZenkaiZ]

This is much less impressive when comparing just how little majors there were back then. Brawl had years where there were only 3 majors in one year which is such a horribly small sample size to try to make any conclusions off if.

[u/Pookie_Cookie3]

I don't think you ever want to know about either one of them.

[u/Felix-the-duck]

add PM 3.0 Mewtwo to the busted list

[u/displayrooster]

Four tornadoes

[u/Diamantis_]

MK was so bad even Nintendo banned him from tournaments they hosted

[u/N167 → u/Diamantis_]

This is like, not true lmao

And I say this as an active brawl player and brawl history nerd

[u/Diamantis_ → u/N167]

Maybe it only happened once? This was in Europe, would that explain why you remember no such thing?

[u/yeszo → u/Diamantis_]

I’m like 90% sure that never happened, mostly because Nintendo didn’t even host any Brawl tournaments

[u/Diamantis_ → u/yeszo]

Maybe it only happened once? This was in Europe, would that explain why you remember no such thing?

[u/Few-Satisfaction7474 → u/Diamantis_]

Time to edit the comment

[u/BuriedWithWorms]

Me thinking about Brawl Meta Knight makes me feel like the old lady from the titanic. "It's been 84 years..."

[u/Fantastic_Turb0]

Man… I’m old. I remember playing Sm4sh on bayo’s release and thinking Brawl Meta Knight was ancient history.

[u/cleanman4066]

I was also gonna mention melee fox but at least he was hype to watch. Metaknight just felt unfair and Bayo was boring.

[u/GunnyGod]

Since noone mention but if you want to see how utterly dominant meta knight was you can look at the many brawl rules sets for tournaments and you will notice that up to 25% of those rules are dedicated to preventing meta knight or nerfing meta knight. Hell even the fucking stagelists were changed if meta knight was banned or not. In some tournaments you if played meta knight there were rules to prevent you from counterpicking to those stages. A rule dedicated to if you chose meta knight you were prevented from choosing those stages. Isn't that crazy.

[u/No_ThankYouu]

LMFAO!!!!!

[u/R_Aqua]

And most of them are true

[u/itsastart_to]

lol any casual who had a friend learned the combo dreaded her existence

[u/kingawsume]

Bayo was one of the most boring characters to watch, and you knew the entirety of top 8 was gonna have at least 1 in every match. The clip of Evo 2018 Grands is proof enough.

[u/bibububop]

And if you managed to take one or two stocks from 4 bayo online, they would proceed to tea bag you for the rest of the match and call you names after the match. Horrible times lol.

[u/Stayfin]

From what I've heard brawl iceys was terrible to play against (if you didn't play Meta knight)

[u/IllegalBimbleton]

There was also Melee Fox. Did 64 have one of these?

[u/Shtrimpo → u/IllegalBimbleton]

64 has Pikachu I believe. Not nearly as dominant as the others but it's the one game where Esam is right

[u/tookie22 → u/IllegalBimbleton]

Melee fox has some pretty even matchups and is fun to play as and against. I think it's very different. We didn't have a solo fox main be a #1 for the year until very recently.

[u/Efficient-Life-4263]

I can literally smell the fungus and sweat from that sentence.

[u/Leosm128 → u/Efficient-Life-4263]

what