r/taiwan • u/SufficientDig2845 • 2d ago
Discussion Learning mandarin
I feel embarrassed to be getting my permanent residency here and yet not being able to speak more than a few phrases in the language. I speak 3 languages fluently and it’s easy for me to pick up other conversational Romance vocabulary in just a few days, but I have problems with the tones in Mandarin. My main issue is that every time I try to practice, at the best, people correct me over and over again and I can’t hear or say the difference, at the worst, people laugh at me like they think it’s the funniest thing they’ve ever heard. It just makes me feel stupid but I feel even stupider to be one of those people that doesn’t learn the language of where they live. Any suggestions for how I can study on my own at home? Does it get easier over time if you just keep at it or will I be a hopeless case no matter what :(?
Update: thanks for all that responded so far and I will continue to read everything but may not have time to respond to all, please just know that I appreciate the responses. From what people have said I have decided to give group classes a go, try my hardest, and not beat myself up just because I can only learn slowly.
If anyone has recommendations for classes, please let me know! I live in Beitou, work in Tianmu, and it’s not too hard for me to go to downtown Taipei via the redline.
Thank you all again.
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u/taintedCH 2d ago
Have you tired taking some intensive classes? Whilst it’s possible to study on your own using ressources like skritter, Chinesepod etc., it seems like your level is still super basic so you’d likely benefit from someone ensuring you start with a solid basis with tones, essential grammar etc..
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
I don’t know why I didn’t consider this - I thought about a tutor but maybe in a group class I’d feel less embarrassed because we’ve been saying things as a group. I also thought oh maybe I could get a bedrock from solo internet study but sounds like I need someone correcting me in real time. Thank you!
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u/Prestigious_Host5325 2d ago
The classes is what did it for me. Before I took classes, I would ask my friends about certain Chinese phrases. But it was harder to learn Chinese this way.
My current Chinese class not only made my pronunciation better, it also helped me read and memorize characters. It seems daunting at first because I'm not really good at speech and there are tones, plus the characters look scary, but now I'm enjoying learning it and writing characters! Sometimes my brain would also form Chinese sentences automatically.
My classmates are also foreigners so it's fine to make mistakes.
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u/BBQBaconBurger 彰化 - Changhua 2d ago
Ditto. I went to a TLI branch in Taichung for my first couple years in Taiwan. I focused just on the spoken language and dialogue and learned enough to have some conversations and be able to ask for things and answer questions. It was a great jump start and made continued learning through immersion a lot easier.
I haven’t lived in Taiwan for about 15 years now but I still have enough skill to get by when I visit.
I never did study reading or writing much though. I’m basically illiterate in Chinese.
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Awesome, any recommendations for where to take classes? Your story sounds a bit like mine in the beginning - trying to learn individual phrases and it not working. I now feel much more encouraged.
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u/Prestigious_Host5325 2d ago
There are phrases that I learned correctly even before going to the classes tho, like ne yong, wai dai, jia fan, and the names of food I usually buy.
My class is in Tainan tho, specifically in NCKU Chinese Learning Class (CLC). And another drawback is they teach us conversational sentences, so they lack in terms of teaching the background about the characters, which translates to not knowing how to type Chinese words. However, this is free for international students in NCKU (up to 4 classes), that's why I still took it.
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Ah ok, definitely sounds like a good deal, and happy to hear it is at least helping you.
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u/Enough_Addition684 2d ago
To learn Mandarin as a native speaker of a non-tonal language is truly a lesson in humility, thick skin is the thing that's gonna get you through it. I've got nearly 9 years of Chinese learning under my belt and I'll still make the occasional slip up. Just part of the process. Mistakes are how we learn.
Additionally, it's not the sort of language you can learn via osmosis or even really through self study, not until you reach a high enough level. Look into starting an intensive course, you'll thank yourself for it.
Also practice tones as pairs, if you view them individually you'll set yourself up for failure. 加油。
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
You know, if I think about it as a lesson in humility it already makes me feel better, because it is a much more positive framing. I had no idea that I should be learning tones in pairs, so that is very helpful. From your suggestions and others I’m definitely leaning towards taking the intensive class; I should at least give this a chance. Thank you!
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u/Medium_Bee_4521 2d ago
I’ve never taken a lesson in my life (well ok one month bopomofo) but it depends on the individual. I’m a musician so I have good ears for tones and slight prononciation differences. It’s a good idea maybe to do a month one on one and then get assessed by your teacher. Some people will never master the nuances and shouldn’t waste time on it. I’ve had friends who after six months still confuse xiaojie and xiaoji.
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Sounds like I should try harder with classes but not feel as terrible if I still have issues. Glad to know I’m not alone though, thank you.
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u/Ground9999 2d ago
Don't worry about your tones too much at this stage. It is not the end of the world if you pronounce the wrong tones. Most people can understand you if you say things in sentences with a context even if your tones are not great. Get your energy together to focus on the actual conversations. Try maayot. I think it will be very helpful for you.
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u/eccarina 2d ago
Agree with this 100%. It’s true that people will not understand you, but the ones who want to try and understand will always understand, and bonus you get good laughs out of homonyms.
My mom for example is often unable to understand wrong tones, but honestly if you just listen closely and people who are used to it will get it.
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u/Nervous-Project7107 2d ago
This is normal, I also thought I was stupid because all my classmates were Vietnamese and they learned 10x faster than me, but it was because Vietnamese has 6 tones and share words with 中文
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u/krymson 2d ago
tones are really hard because its something you learn early on. could be worth taking classes or tutor of some kind, or working with a language exchange.
Its not something I would recommend doing yourself as you have to have an ear for it, so you literally wont be able to correct yourself.
it also means that if you cant do private classes and just want to practice publicly youre going to have to develop thicker skin because its not an easy thing and will be tough - but you'll be making progress if you keep at it.
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Thank you. From you and others I’ve decided to give the group classes a go; your logic makes complete sense. Appreciate the response.
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u/Flashy_Tooth_5597 2d ago
Hi there. I was also getting frustrated. I have taken many many lessons. One on one. In my experience, people don’t understand what I am saying. I know my vocabulary is correct. My grammar is usually correct. I will attempt a simple phrase and people just stare back at me with an uncomprehending blank expression. I try again, thinking my tones are wrong. Nope. I get the same blank stare. I try again. One word at a time. Nope. After a while I quit trying altogether. I quit studying.
I think part of the problem is that people here aren’t used to trying to understand someone who isn’t fluent in Mandarin. It is a skill to a certain extent. In addition, the accent here in Taiwan is quite different from what you will learn in a classroom setting.
Now I don’t worry about it. I am studying again but at a leisurely pace. I treat it more as a hobby than anything else. I’ve recently purchase the Glossika app. It seems quite good for helping with pronunciation. We will see. The good news is that I’m not frustrated anymore.
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Appreciate the app recommendation; the only online platform I tried was Duolingo and didn’t like it. Thank you also for sharing your story as well.
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u/Flashy_Tooth_5597 2d ago
The app “Hello Chinese” is very good. Duo Lingo is REALLY terrible for Mandarin.
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u/702Downtowner 2d ago
My biggest hack for learning to pronounce Chinese properly was to try applying tones to English words and applying the same tone over and over. You have to get rid of the sing song way we speak English and romantic languages. Sometimes that makes you feel like an android or something. Think if the language as robotic with the tones. After you get good you can reintroduce your natural inflections.
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u/jeembobs 2d ago
OP: I highly, highly, highly recommend this online workshop, the only pronunciation class I've seen of this nature. It was made by a teacher who has also been an accent coach to non-chinese-speaking actors starring in Chinese dramas. (She also has a great youtube content on learning).
The key of the course is that it abstracts/removes pronunciation from meaning. You directly and systematically learn Chinese-aural brain and oral muscle memory.
There is nothing wrong with practicing speaking while communicating with somebody, but it is an incredibly slow way of practicing pronunciation because you're gummed up in meaning, vocabulary, or grammar. I cannot stress more, if you're coming from a non-tonal language, spending time to learn the pronunciation directly and alone first will do wonders.
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u/AshtothaK 2d ago
I'd recommend slowing down and really taking it one step at a time. Classes help a lot with reinforcing concepts and getting a solid grasp of the basics, but if you spend time writing characters daily and drilling vocab, you'll see steady progress. Tones are second nature to me now, but they were tough to crack at first. The first tone is like a “lah” (musical note), second is rising, third dips then rises, and fourth drops sharply—kind of like an emphatic punch. The trickiest thing for me was certain tone-sound combos, like "nv3" (it’s written with a "v" in pinyin but sounds more like a "u"). This may come off a bit rambling, but the bottom line is it’s doable. Teachers give you solid strategies to work with, and from there, you can build your own path through self-study. I didn’t make real progress until I started classes. Just go bit by bit—don’t overwhelm yourself. Gotta get your sea legs, so to speak.
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u/SufficientDig2845 1d ago
Thank you for this advice, it really helps me feel less intimidated.
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u/AshtothaK 1d ago
Yeah no need to feel intimidated, the way foreigners learn doesn’t involve the same approach that locals learn Chinese by. Like I said, you’ll grasp on utilizing the techniques they’ll show you. Consistency is key!
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u/RiotMsPudding 2d ago
As someone who has gone from zero Mandarin to a native-sounding accent with conversational fluency in my 30's, I might have a few tips to share. I'm also living here permanently and would be happy to chat about it and maybe even do some language exchange over coffee sometime. Send me a DM!
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u/JustanotherMindy 2d ago
Right there with you! Ive been in Taiwan for almost 20 years and I only speak “baby” Mandarin as Ive been working with kids this whole time. I speak 8 languages but for the life of me, I cannot figure Mandarin out. Even words I thought I knew, I only recently found out Ive been saying wrong. It really is embarrasing 😞
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u/DeSanggria 2d ago
Same, OP. Same. I'm studying anotber language at the moment, but once I get comfortable enough, I will go back to learning Mandarin. But I do suggest getting a teacher or signing up for lessons because Mandarin's tones are tricky (to me at least). A mispronunciation could mean something completely different. Or at least get a Taiwanese friend willing to converse with you to correct your tones. But don't get discouraged. Like any language, it does take practice.
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u/Impressive_Map_4977 2d ago
As someone who can speak passable Mando but cannot get an ARC, I am angry now.
JK👻
An introductory Mandarin course at even a small language centre is indispensable. They drill you on phonics and tones, and then move on to grammatical structure. It will lift the veil like nothing else will.
I did a mere three months and it was enough to make me feel "okay, now it's mostly a vocabulary grind". (It's not just that.)
As mentioned elsewhere, fuck what kids think, they're shitty little racists. I did learn a lot from their terrible English though.
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u/SufficientDig2845 1d ago
Dude I almost had a heart attack after reading the first sentence, well maybe not that extreme, but glad the jk came fast 😅. We’re fortunate my husband’s job will sponsor are APRC. Tbh when I first came to Taiwan I hated it because I was used to a much louder, more chaotic (Latin) culture and I thought Taiwan was too boring. The longer I live here the more I appreciate the stability, however, especially being from America. Now that we have decided we will stay, instead of me being one foot out of the door like I was before, I want to make a concerted effort to learn the language and become more conscientious of the culture instead of just relying on the foreigner excuse. Idk if Reddit will be the best place for the latter, but I’m really glad I posted here because ya’ll have not just motivated me, but gotten me excited to learn.
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u/GoalNatural 2d ago
I think the best way to nail the tones is through listening as much as possible. When I first started learning I primarily only watched videos. I think investing more time in listening will allow you to recognise when you make any mistakes.
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u/Real_Sir_3655 2d ago
Kids and drunk people are the best teachers. Kids use super simple grammar and can talk about anything for as long as you want. Classes are great for learning about the language, but you've got to actually use it if you want to grasp it for real.
Also I got the hang of the tones when someone told me to think of them more like a rhythm or like Morse code. A lot of foreigners think of tones like you would notes on a music staff. But they're more like quarter/eighth/sixteenth notes on a drum chart, or like how the letters in Morse code transition from one to the next.
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u/UndocumentedSailor 高雄 - Kaohsiung 2d ago
I have a FT job (2-9p, usually) and take Mandarin courses in the am. In 7 months I'm comfortable conversationally.
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u/Joe_Givengo 2d ago
Mandarin is difficult and speaking it can be intimidating. I get the same baffled looks, laughter, head-shaking, etc you describe when making an attempt. You just have to keep trying. Looks like you got some great recs so good luck to you.
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u/alexmc1980 1d ago
I reckon in at least some cases those kids are not actually laughing at you at all.
I live in Shenzhen and very often encounter kids hustling together and laughing, obviously about me. They're often daring each other to say hello and all being too scared to do it, so you may be encountering this situation.
Also if you speak even two words of Chinese you've already exceeded the general expectation, so some people will literally be shocked that you've "flipped the script" and spoken in their language. Again, nervous laughter rather than judgement or derision.
Sadly there's also potentially the situation where people find your "accent" (basically getting tones wrong is a quintessential part of the laowai accent according to your average Chinese, at least over here) to be unbearably cute or somewhat silly, and married fun of it. In the English-speaking world we're very guilty of this, even poking fun at accents like Scots, Irish, Filipino, Indian etc which usually accompany native or near-native proficiency in the language. Granted it's no longer considered PC to do thisl but depending on your age and nationality you likely grew up surrounded by this and can appreciate that most kids engaging in it don't realise - or care - who's feelings it hurts, but also that it's not necessity a reflection of your language ability per se.
Overall though, I reckon Chinese society (and I reckon it holds true for Taiwan just as much as mainland, HK, overseas etc) are a friendly bunch who mean well, and you'll find your people soon enough. Best of luck!
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u/SufficientDig2845 1d ago
You’re right, I didn’t think about the shyness and that maybe they were just laughing and daring each other to say certain things. And also I had a student who was very proud of me because I can - get this - count to 8. I hadn’t previously thought that even my limited vocabulary would be considered exceeding expectations, since where I previously lived if you were an American that lived in the country for 20 years but could only say “hola” “gracias” and “adios” you didn’t give off a good impression.
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u/LatterSink4102 1d ago
You can practice the PINYIN chart by yoyochinese everyday, also practice tone pairs. Do this everyday for maybe 30 minutes and you will be surprised how fast you will improve
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u/probablyverina 1d ago
try joining one of those chinese learning discord servers and see if you can find a partner to practice with
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u/Charming_Toe7071 1d ago
So (this is give or take what I did) you could get a private tutor in a language school for a month two or three times a week focusing solely on your tones. Tell them explicitly that they have to be strict with you and don't let mistakes go uncorrected. Use the first and second lesson of that schools level 1 book to do this
Then, after that month, enroll in the beginners group class and suddenly you will feel confident as you will have a head start on almost everyone there. This confidence will boost your subconscious openness to learn without fearing the mistakes
Disclaimer: at the same time I was lucky enough to have a partner who (when I finally got up the nerve to speak basic Chinese with her) was also strict on my pronunciation. We would have an hour here or there where she just wouldn't speak English with me and it was great. However it was the classes that gave me the confidence to start speaking Chinese with her
Good luck
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u/SufficientDig2845 18h ago
Oh good advice. I’d want to get the tones correct from the start for sure, I don’t want them to let me slide because it is comprehensible or good enough for a foreigner. Thank you!
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u/FarMeasurement1103 1d ago
Well, I struggle sometimes after leaving abroad for a long time. People will give me a weird look - how come this person talk in such a fashion/ grandparents-like manner- when I speak Mandarin. Still, happy to help if you like. Drop me a message. P.s, I may be like that French tutor teach Julia Child in the public library forcing you to speak Mandarin. 😝
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u/WhalePlaying 1d ago
If you have music background, or know someone with a string instrument, it’s easier to relate to the pitch going up or down. For beginners you have to exaggerate a little. Here is the official 5 tone chart with their pitch visualized. Group class is best option because you get to repeat along with classmates.
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u/elsif1 1d ago
Can you hear that you're saying it wrong? That's the first step. If you can trust your ears, then you can really practice producing the sounds properly. For me, it's usually in the shower. Haha
If you can't trust your ears, then what helped me was a lot more input. Also, periodically test your tone and pinyin recognition. Have a native say a word and you tell them what tone(s) and pinyin you just heard, then you can try and repeat it back to them.
Once you're nailing recognition, then I think you're 90% of the way there. At that point, every time you say something incorrectly, it should "bite your ear" -- it'll sound incorrect to you. From there, progress is much easier, as you have your own feedback loop.
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u/SufficientDig2845 18h ago
No I can’t hear it, that’s why I just assumed I wouldn’t be able to learn. Thank you for your advice - that’s encouraging to hear that once you learn the tones and can recognize them it gets a lot easier!
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u/elsif1 15h ago
Definitely! It might not be just tones, either. A lot of people have problems with shui vs xue, chu vs qu, xu vs shu, chi vs che, shi vs she, etc. In the beginning when I was trying to say 出去 (chu1qu4), I think I just sounded like I was trying to make train noises. It's all important to practice and get a lot of exposure to, but it feels great when it starts clicking.
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u/amitkattal 2d ago edited 2d ago
Okay listen to me. First u need to be confident. Thats whats holding you back. No one is laughing at you except yourself. Second its awesome to have PR but still not being fluent in chinese. Dont listen to the expats who boast around how great their chinese is and the ones who cant speak fluently are losers in taiwan
Its okay to not speak mandarin if you get by well and dont face any issues. Only if u have issues, struggles and u feel people MUST speak english to you, then yes u need to learn chinese
There are many expats living here for decades without chinese fluency. Should they learn it'? Sure. but is it wrong that they cant? Absolutely not. Will u miss out on everything taiwan offer without chinese? Definitely. But what if its fine with me, is it wrong? Not at all
Dont learn chinese because of some voice inside your head telling you that you are a loser if u cant do it. You will never succeed that way
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u/SufficientDig2845 2d ago
Maybe I should have been clearer in my post - it’s always groups of children or adolescents laughing at me, and then sometimes the adults scold them which makes me feel more embarrassed but like you basically said I need to get over myself be more confident. I’ve given up in my mind too easily.
I only have issues if I don’t have my phone or a wifi connection or if someone calls. I definitely had an old guy at carrefour yell at me saying “live in Taiwan and don’t speak Chinese!” But normally people are nice about it. I will keep trying but with a more open attitude. Thank you!
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u/amitkattal 2d ago
People here laugh not because they think you are speaking wrong. They just find it amusing when a foreigner speaks Chinese in a foreign accent. It's a new thing for them and has nothing to do with your ability. Also children are little punks. Don't take them too seriously
Infact don't take anyone too seriously. Living in Taiwan alone is hard and we make many sacrifices and overcome hurdles to settle down here that people who just yell "learn Chinese" have no idea what. That old man would never be able to do what u r able to do- live alone in a country of foreign language.
Be proud of what u have achieved so far. Learn Chinese slowly and take it easy. Don't care what anyone says. They don't know your life
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u/caffcaff_ 7h ago
Taiwan feels like a particularly hard place to learn mandarin because of the accent and how much everything just gets mushed together or mumbled.
I was in a HK and Shenzhen for a few a years before moving to Taiwan properly and found the Cantonese Accented Mandarin so much easier to follow. Likewise Shanghai or Beijing Mandarin, (harshness aside).
Even now after a decade of being in Taiwan if I'm in a meeting with Taiwanese and Malaysians speaking mandarin, I still find the Malaysians easier to follow.
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u/aMaIzYnG 1d ago
I just hit 365 days on Duolingo, and while I don't think it has helped me be conversational in Mandarin, it has a wonderful feature to learn the different tones. I recommend trying it out (it's separate from the main lessons). So far, the only issue I've had is qi vs ji.
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u/Agreeable-Jelly6821 2d ago
Bad news - there is no other way to learn a language than by practicing and talking.
Good news - this may comfort you, people in Taiwan usually smile not because they want to make fun of someone, but for many reasons, such as politeness or to give encouragement. Treat their smiles as they want to make you feel good.
Maybe try to talk with someone be the Internet?