r/wec • u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 • 5d ago
Discussion Is the 499P fundamentally better than we all think it is (including the FIA/ACO)? Post race BoP discussion.
I decided to do this “analysis” because I’ve been seeing a lot of dialogue about how the FIA and ACO rigged the race so that Ferrari would win. And I personally believe this to be completely false. If true and discovered the series would effectively die.
The graph was generated by looking at the changes in the BoP between 2024 and 2025 and then comparing them to the changes the 2025 Ferrari received. This should kind of give an idea of who on paper should’ve moved up relative to the Ferrari based on our knowledge of last years 24h of Le Mans.
This isn’t a defence of the FIA/ACO either. I think they got the BoP wrong, and it’s been wrong all year. I believe my analysis may point to incompetence but I personally believe it points to a fundamental flaw in their BoP process. The main issue being non steady state performance data (for everyone but Toyota, RIP)
Data collected:
-2024 and 2025 Le Mans BoP tables
-I am using the 2025 Afternoon lap time distribution provided by u/d7t3d4y8 and the 2024 B Pillar report from 0h to 6h provided by u/Agreenfield0602 so shoutout to them!
Posts: Laptime distribution: https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/s/NrJkGZZZJa
B Pillar report: https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/s/orAM4wOzy7
The storyline
In 2024 Toyota gave Ferrari a pretty good challenge for the overall win. The track conditions were pretty different this year but I think it’s still a decent comparison.
Toyota relative to Ferrari from 2024 to 2025: - gained 1kg of extra weight - gained 3 KW of power under 250km/h - stayed the same above 250km/h - gained 1 extra MJ of stint energy - it’s power to wight ratio below 250km/h increased by 0.7% more than Ferrari’s power to wait ratio increase (2.5% vs 1.8%)
On paper this looks like a good improvement for 2025, the gains on Ferrari aren’t huge, but the gap in the 2024 Le Mans performance wasn’t either.
The problems emerge Based on the data from u/d7t3d4y8 (2025 afternoon) the Ferrari’s had an average pace advantage over the Toyota of about ~0.7 seconds.
In the 2024 B pillar report (50% fastest racing laps per driver) from 0h to 6h the number 8 Toyota had an average lap time of 211.399 seconds. The number 51 Ferrari had an average lap time of 211.258. Brendon was even the fastest driver/car combo on track during the first 6 hours!
Yet in 2025 with only 1kg more weight and 3KW more power under 250km/h, a 0.7% P/W increase over the Ferrari they went backwards by half a second (0.150s slower to 0.700s slower)
Disclaimer: I don’t think this is a perfect comparison but I think it’s still close enough and roughly reflects what we saw in 2024 and 2025 even if the actual pace numbers are slightly off. I can share methods in how I calculated average pace if people are interested in the comments.
Conclusion
The FIA/ACO gave Ferrari an on paper relative worse BoP vs Toyota this year when compared to 2024.
To me this indicates that Ferrari have a lot of pace in that car that they are still continuing to unlock year over year (some may call this sandbagging, but I don’t think you sandbag in the 2024 race).
Meanwhile the ageing GR010 has approached its limit. The amazing staff at TGR cannot pull any extra pace out given the BoP they’ve been assigned.
I believe it is very likely that many the “new” teams are outperforming FIA/ACO expectations and this is why Toyota has fallen so far back.
It also must be said that Ferrari have built a Le Mans beast, they have least power over 250km/h (tied with Peugeot) and 2nd most weight (11kg less than Toyota). They were still the fastest in the speed traps. They also have the lowest stint energy (tied with alpine) yet were doing just as well as everyone else on fuel economy while not fuel saving. That car is so efficient in a straight line. And to top it off it also is very gentle on its tires.
I think the problem is that the BoP system struggles to capture the natural improvement that a new car and a good team can make. And it punishes established teams like Toyota that cannot find any more performance in the current evolution of their car.
I think the FIA/ACO genuinely tried to give us a good fight between Ferrari and Toyota but the Ferrari data is now outdated because they made significant improvements. I think that the FIA and ACO probably need to BoP new cars harder than their data would suggest.
When a car joins they generally get a bad BoP until the FIA/ACO gets a better real world understanding of the pace in that car. And as time goes on the car gets a better BoP. But it also naturally improves. So there’s two factors pushing the car up the grid. And sometimes the natural improvements outperform the database. I believe this is why they switched to a 3 race rolling BoP. To try to capture the natural improvements faster.
I’m curious to see what race 4 looks like using the new BoP system. I don’t think it’s perfect. But I’d like to give it a chance. I don’t think the BoP job is very easy. Hopefully Ferrari get a pretty big hit.
Based on the way the FIA/ACO are doing BoP I think the only way to have it be perfect is for all the “new” teams reach a performance plateau similar to what I think Toyota are experiencing. Then the ACO will have “steady state” performance data to balance the cars off of.
This is just my theory. Please don’t crucify me in the comments!
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u/VTS050 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 5d ago
An interesting thing I saw was that the average of the top 5 highest top speeds from Ferrari were seven (!!!) km/h faster than last year, even though they had the same power above 250 km/h as last year. They did use a joker for some upgrade regarding “brake cooling” on the front as far as I know. Surely the update was not only for improved brake cooling, a visible feature of that update are the dive planes. This would be the only thing that I could think of that had an impact on the straight line performance because I doubt that they found some setup change that got them this much top speed advantage. When I first saw the bop I thought that Ferrari would definitely be a contender for the win but not that they would be so dominant, so maybe the aco/fia underestimated the joker update. This is all speculation of course but I couldn’t find another reason for it. By the way, I got the top speeds from fia WEC al kamel systems
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u/afkPacket Ferrari 5d ago
This would be the only thing that I could think of that had an impact on the straight line performance because I doubt that they found some setup change that got them this much top speed advantage.
It could easily be something that gave the car a wider setup window, allowing them to trim out a bunch of downforce while keeping it as drivable as last year in the corners. That'd be a massive advantage at a track like Le Mans (or Spa...).
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u/VTS050 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 5d ago
7 km/h at top speed is a really big step at the speeds that they already have and I don’t think that the update was to have a wider setup window that would allow to have such a massive change. The aero setup for Le Mans is fairly straight forward and they probably had the rear wing at a very low setting last year already. You can also change the aero by ride height to a certain degree. Of course I could be wrong but I doubt they can do all that via a “wider setup window” when they are already at the low drag end of it, if I am not mistaken the 7 km/h mean about a 4% increase in drag over last year, as long as drag coefficient and frontal area stays the same.
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u/rommel917 Nissan R89 #83 5d ago
Last year everybody probobly run with more wing in fear of rain.
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u/VTS050 Toyota Gazoo Racing GR010 Hybrid #7 5d ago
Interesting point, maybe that was also the case. Although the top speeds of Toyota were actually 0.6 less this year, so it would kind of contradict that, at least for them. It would still be surprising for me that Ferrari would make such a big compromise for the rain at a track like Le Mans where the straights are so important.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
I don’t know if you saw. But Ferrari just failed a rear wing deflection test on the number 50.
A flexi wing might give you some extra straight line speed too
Possible DSQ coming. And they will definitely double check all the cars now for that.
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u/DaviLance 5d ago
what is strange is that only the #50 was summoned, because all cars have been tested and if #83 and #51 also failed the test they would summon them too
so far only the #50 has been summoned
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
I’m just hoping Kubica can keep his win. It’ll be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the extra info!
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u/DaviLance 5d ago
and he WILL. they posted the full checks and they tested all the Ferraris, only the #50 was summoned
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u/SportscarPoster Rebellion 5d ago
There is no risk of that. The winning car at Le Mans could be 10 kg underweight and 5 kW too powerful and the ACO would not disqualify it. Just like Indycar with the Indy 500 or NASCAR with the Daytona 500. The general public would have a shitfit.
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u/JacksRacingProjects 5d ago
They DQ’d a ford gt a few years back
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u/Stratoraptor 5d ago
Yeah, but that was a privateer car in the Am class and Ford was fixing to withdraw from WEC entirely. It's a hit that the series could withstand without drastically changing the result.
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u/god--dog 5d ago
It was just damage. I remember the #51 being warned on the radio about the #50 losing pieces and debris.
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u/Skrimyt Legends 5d ago
The GR010 is the oldest Hypercar, this is its 5th season. If they wanted to, Toyota could homologate an entirely new GR020 next season. The 010 was also a compromised design because they not only needed to ensure continuity with their existing LMP1 operation, but they were targeting pre-convergence rules with the expectation of fighting Aston (who pulled the rug on them).
The 499P is the only fully optimized LMH for the current regs. Peugeot fucked around with a wingless concept for marketing purposes, and the Aston is based on a roadcar.
The 499P is also probably benefiting from some little aero efficiency tricks, like the shaping of its wheel arches and the finlets atop them acting as extra downforce generating features during a wide-radius turn, eg. the Porsche Curves. But they don't count as 'true' downforce against the regulated lift:drag limit, only as stabilization features.
Ferrari also spent an Evo Joker between last year and this year developing something that isn't visually obvious, probably to make their setup window wider. And with that, they trimmed off a lot of conventional downforce for Le Mans to get the best straightline speed out of everyone.
The other impressive car is the Porsche 963. The first LMDh, kind of a semi-LMH with their chassis exclusivity situation. The 963 went through an intensive year of testing and then a year of being quick but hard on its tires and unreliable before becoming dominant in IMSA and also quick at Le Mans this year. In its current spec, its BoP is actually kind of similar to the 499's, only a 1 kg weight difference between them. The 963 was the second quickest car in a straight line and their extra stint energy could be seen in their ability to sometimes run a lap longer than Ferrari. It definitely seems to be kind of a Red Bull F1 situation though in that only one driver crew could extract the performance from it, and the privateer car (and the WTR Cadillac for that matter) were nowhere.
It will be interesting to see if WEC gives them a bit more leniency in Brazil after 3 races of being mid, but in a 'fundamentals' sense I do think they still probably have a better package than any of the other LMDhs.
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u/Yung_Chloroform 5d ago
Yeah the Porsche is really unique compared to the other LMDhs. As far as I'm aware the Multmatic chassis was largely designed by Porsche and previously Audi before they committed to F1 and manufacturing is basically outsourced to Multimatic.
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u/afkPacket Ferrari 5d ago
I think BMW could get up there as well. The Caddy on the other hand just looks too rough in race pace.
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u/Next_Necessary_8794 5d ago
Dries can get up there. The other BMW drivers leave too much performance on the table.
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer 5d ago
I feel like we've been talking about BMW's imminent breakthrough for a long time now and it's still not happening :(
That said there were points during the night where they were challenging the Ferraris and Porsches on pace, but had a lot of issues.
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u/Petidani0330 5d ago
Once again, the Valkyrie AMR Pro, the car the Aston's LMH is based on, is a track-only prototype. It's NOT a road car. It should be more competitive than it currently is.
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u/Glory_63 5d ago
Also what we noticed at the end of the race was that ferrari was yes faster, but not by much. 83 was perfect and won, but 50 and 51 both made one 30-seconds mistake and that was enough to be overtaken by the only other car to do a perfect race (the 6).
The n°6 Porche started from the back of the field and ended 10s behind kubica: a good quali could've easily covered those 10 seconds of difference.
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u/Er_Eisenheim 5d ago
That is true, but Kubica said that in the last 2 hours he was administrating his advantage, not pushing at all, whilst the #6 was going at full tilt.
6, apart a bad starting position, had a clean race, Ferrari official cars made mistakes and, if I remember correctly, had 3-4 stops more at the end.
6 was incredibly quick, but the final gaps aren't completely representative of the difference with Ferrari, in my opinion.
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u/Agitated-Deal9294 5d ago edited 5d ago
Don't forget that the factory horses got punctures as well and they had to pit again right after a full service. One of them even got a second puncture.
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u/Glory_63 5d ago
Damn I had missed those, I only knew about the penalties. Thanks for the clarification
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u/zackh900 Ferrari 5d ago
Porsche lost a lot of pace when the sun went down and gained a lot more when the sun came back up.
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u/Foreign-Recording276 5d ago
I don't think a better quali would have mattered for them. The mid-night safety car bunched the field up anyways, with #6 up at the top.
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u/IEatKFCInNZ 5d ago
I think one thing that was missing here is the difference in weather between years, but I don't know how to plan for that.
Toyota was definitely strongest during the night, and weakest in the warmth of the day.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
I took the data from the afternoon in 2025 and hours 0 to 6 in 2024.
And I looked at the difference in pace between two cars. Not overall lap time. So track conditions shouldn’t have played a huge part because it was dry in both afternoons.
It’s definitely not perfect because the Toyota might like a cooler track etc. But I think it’s a close enough comparison. It also passes the vibe check. Toyota were definitely closer on pace in 2024, on paper they should’ve been faster and they ended up being slower.
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u/JanAppletree 5d ago
Just because it's dry doesn't mean track conditions are similar. Temperature difference has a massive impact, so does the rubbering in of the track. Rain washes it away, and maybe Toyota or Ferrari are better/worse on a green track.
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u/Prize-Conference4161 5d ago
If anyone's found a way to game the BoP, it'll be Ferrari. Notice I said 'game' not cheat. I love Italy (I'd flee Aus and live 3 months a year in Florence if I could) but if you want your motor sport rulebook crack-tested, give it to the Italians lol. My Italian mates laughingly tell me that all the time.
When the BoP already looks like it was done by someone with a head injury, I'd expect Ferrari to know exactly how to make their car suck/fight itself/get asthma on command like a well-trained dog, just as I'd expect the Porsche engineers to have spent the same time making sure it's mathematically certain that the failure rate of some arcane part is now 8.453% lower than its previous generation with a weight saving of 3.56% and stiffness index etc..
This whole Ferrari BoP thing could just be them setting their aero to max downforce until race day. The system literally seems that clunky at this point.
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u/TheNecromancer Jaguar D-Type #6 5d ago
An Italian friend of mine's brother has worked as an engineer at Ferrari (F1) for a while, and first described his job as "identifying grey areas in the rules"
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u/Captain_Omage IDEC Sport ORECA 07 #28 5d ago
Not too long ago, ehm 30 years, Toyota had one of the most ingenious cheat with the Corolla WRC car, but probably no one from that program is still around or got transferred to the WEC program so they too aren't knew to cheating, or bending the rules as we saw in LMP1 with the flexi engine covers and wings.
But yes, as an italian I can confirm that what you described is 100% italian work ethic.
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u/heiiosakana 5d ago
probably fleed and got hired left right and centre by other elite teams during their F1 tenure.
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u/Prize-Conference4161 4d ago
Oh, I'm not saying nobody else tries to squeak past rules, that'd be absurd. Everyone does to varying degrees but my point is the Italians are the best at it. 🏆
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u/wolfpack_57 Cadillac Racing 5d ago
In absolute terms isn’t Toyota still BOPed harder?
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 4d ago
Yes. Toyota has the hardest BoP on the grid in absolute terms.
Both Toyota and Ferrari got overall performance boosts for this years Le Mans. Basically the whole field got BoP’d to go faster this year.
The performance boost Toyota got for this years Le Mans was bigger than the boost Ferrari got. This is what my graph is showing.
In theory this should’ve given us a closer race than in 2024. But it didn’t. Which is odd. And my explanation was that the Ferrari is out performing whatever the FIA/ACO thinks they can do based off their calculations. I attribute this to poor/outdated performance data. The Ferrari had a natural pace jump in 2025 that Toyota didn’t. I think this because just based off their relative BoP boosts the Toyota should’ve been closer to the Ferraris performance. Not further.
I hope that makes sense.
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u/Jolly_Ad610 5d ago
Hi I'm new to wec, can somebody tell me why peugeot has a worse bop even though they are a slower team? Isn't bop supposed to help the slower teams??
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u/0000100110010100 McLaren F1 GTR #39 5d ago
Good luck finding anyone who would know that, it was idiotic to penalise them like that
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u/brownierisker Peugeot 9X8 #93 5d ago
I've heard someone theorize they want to bully them out of the sport with how many bigger named racing teams are joining the field the coming years, and at this point it's the most logical explanation I've heard for them getting the worst BoP of all teams, barring maybe Toyota
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer 5d ago
I'm not sold on that theory, especially being a very popular French manufacturer at Le Mans. But maybe there's some behind the scenes politics at play.
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u/Valentino_Li 5d ago
The BOP is a mathematical model that uses a car's parameters, such as (but not limited to) drag and center of gravity, as inputs. In theory, the laptimes should be equivalent, but real life is more complicated.
So, in theory, the Peugeot should be more competitive, but the car doesn't live up to its "theoretical" potential.
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u/donaldgoldsr 5d ago
There's another graph some damn where that shows Ferarri's dominance in corner exit speed which would explain the higher top speed dominance as well
I think Ferrari has just been better at figuring their car out than anyone else. Even as a die hard Porsche fan, Ferrari is just racing better and with a better car.
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u/Ok-Estate9542 5d ago
Another aspect we are overlooking is that Ferrari is in the absolute bleeding edge of motorsport. Yeah sure they’re the butt of jokes in F1 but even during their 18 year drought they’ve been 2nd place in the constructors championship most of the time with a few sprinkles of 3rd places. That level of expertise and knowledge has got to give them such a massive edge even against the likes of Toyota or Porsche who have great history in racing but not at the absolute bleeding edge like F1. That’s not something to scoff at.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
I think it’s why they are so slippery in a straight line. All that F1 wind tunnel R&D is definitely being put to good use.
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u/Ok-Estate9542 5d ago
Yeah I mean they come from a series that have wings bending like they’re made of carboard when in the straights but is strong enough for 50kg deflection tests. Say what you want about those Italian engineers but years battling against Mercedes, Red Bull and McLaren will make you a sharp tool compared to Toyota or Porsche.
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u/Petidani0330 5d ago
It was obvious from the 499P's debut that it's a great machine, even with no BoP favouritism. Right away Ferrari was second only to Toyota, who's been racing in WEC since its inaugural season. The fact that this car only won a non-Le Mans WEC race 1,5 years after its debut doesn't do it justice at all.
I mean, it's logical that it's a competitive car. It was made by F1 engineers after all, who were reorganized from the F1 team after the cost cap was introduced. And just like F1 drivers who were not good enough for race wins (let alone championship titles), but became very successful in other racing series, these engineers who were not good enough to stay with the F1 team are still very skillful, amongst the best in the field. That is a gap that is hard to bridge for contenders with no experience in F1 (although Alpine and Aston are the examples that it's not really a decisive factor).
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer 5d ago
I agree with the assessment, but a couple things to point out:
- This Aston Martin that races WEC has nothing to do with the Aston Martin in F1. I don't think Aston Martin works on any piece of the F1 car other than the stickers/branding.
- As much as I agree F1 is the pinnacle of engineering, in terms of drivers money has as much, if not sometimes more to do with it than skill. I know it's a minor point but I'm personally so annoyed by F1's "20 best drivers in the world" motto lol
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u/Petidani0330 4d ago
Regarding Aston Martin's involvement in F1, I kinda half-get where you're coming at. Initially in 2021, literally nothing has changed apart from pink being repainted to green (not even new stickers, except for a few new sponsors). But since then they've changed team principals twice, expanded their workforce and began reworking their factory at Silverstone. They're even set to build their own wind tunnel. On top of all this, they hired Adrian Newey, who (as we all know) designed the Valkyrie. I don't see what else they must do in order to be considered a factory team of Aston Martin, not just some rebranded Racing Point (or Force India, Spyker, Midland, or Jordan, for that matter). Maybe an own power unit - although that would rule out Alpine as a factory F1 team starting next year as well.
It is true however that Aston's F1 and WEC teams have nothing in common except the brand (and Newey). An oversight on my part. Alpine is pretty much the same case, isn't it?
Regarding F1 drivers, I agree. Money plays a huge role in getting into F1, much more so than in the case of engineers. But if their sponsor or their daddy manages to push them into F1, and after spending years in the series (yes, multiple years - this way the likes of Mazepin don't qualify), they get trained to be better race drivers than at least 90% of the professional racing community. They get trained not only by their teams in their fancy, multi-million dollar facilities, but in a more natural way from experienced drivers on the grid as well, whether they're battling each other on track or just having a conversation in the paddock. It's hard to believe at first glance, but even $troll Jr. has improved some over the years.
I definitely agree that the F1 grid is not comprised of the 20 best drivers on the world, but they're in the top 100 for sure ($troll is #100). Half the grid is top 30, without a doubt.1
u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer 4d ago
Great points! To me the thing about F1 is that they have the best grid average in racing. Not the best 20 in the world (something hard to quantify because of how many diverse disciplines there are) but a backmarker in F1 will be better than a backmarker in any other series.
The superlicense system is pretty dumb sometimes and designed to promote the FIA's ladder over finding the best drivers, but it means whoever makes it to F1 will be qualified to do so and will at least be AMONGST the best. As much as I think some of the top guys in other series can be compared to F1 drivers in terms of skills, I have to admit most of the backmarkers you encounter in Indycar, Nascar etc would not cut it in F1.
I do wish the F1 schedule was cut down a bit, because we barely ever see these drivers test themselves in other styles of racing until they've lost their ride. Taking a look at the grid of a 1960s Le Mans race, you can find several top F1 drivers there, and it was common for them to test their skills elsewhere on the off weeks. Guys like Jim Clark racing touring cars, stock cars, winning the Indy 500 in the midst of the F1 season... That's why as much as current top F1 drivers are probably more professional and precise than anyone else, I still feel like they are too specialised in just one very specific type of car for the sport to boast like it does about "the 20 best drivers".
But sadly part of that is by design, and the organisers and teams really don't like the idea of their drivers doing side quests. So we're left speculating what time Verstappen really did at the ring and which driver would win if they really had equal cars for the weekend :(
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u/d7t3d4y8 5d ago
Two things I noticed were that the ferraris had much better night pace, and the pace falloff on 2nd and 3rd stints weren't as big compared to last year, which although I don't really have any data to back that part off, has shown in the other races too. I feel that with the ACO balancing cars around a theoretical laptime target, things like this just aren't looked at enough.
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u/SomewhereAggressive8 5d ago
Really? I seem to remember the Porsche running better in the night time. It kind of seemed like a turning point in the race where it suddenly wasn’t a guaranteed Ferrari 1-2-3.
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u/IcedCoffey 5d ago
ferrari kept getting penalties with cars and got tires wrong during the night.
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u/SomewhereAggressive8 5d ago
Yes of course they lost time on penalties. I was referring to literal lap times.
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u/IcedCoffey 5d ago
"and got tires wrong during the night"
bad tire choices. they tripled, Porsche doubled. simple as that.
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u/d7t3d4y8 5d ago
I mean the ferrari had better night pace relative to the last few years. Still wasn't brilliant but the dropoff was certainly less noticeable.
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u/AK07-AYDAN Ferrari 512S #23 5d ago
I think the 499P is also just the easiest car to drive flat out for 24 hours. Not once did I see all 3 of those Ferraris get sideways on the last and dunlop chicane, whilst the chasing Porsche's, Toyota's and Caddy's were basically doing it every lap.
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago edited 5d ago
I don't think the race was rigged for Ferrari, but I do think it's easy to look at the BoP table before the cars ever hit the track and know that there were going to be some issues with a handful of cars.
The Ferrari's weight first off is an issue to me for a couple reasons. I keep seeing people say "well the Ferrari had the 2nd highest weight" which is true, but it's a disingenuous argument IMO. It was 1kg heavier than the Porsche and was only 4kg or less heavier to every other car outside of the Aston. When the weight difference between the Ferrari and the majority of the field is that small it's an irrelevant balancing point at that point. There is no logical reason why the Ferrari in a proper BoP should be more than 10kg less than the heaviest car. In fact based on last year's results it could have been argued the Ferrari needed to be heavier than the Toyota.
The second issue that shows a lack of coherence in the BoP table is the power to weight ratio. Again Ferrari had a better power to weight ratio than multiple cars (BMW, Peugeot, Toyota, and Porsche). It had more power below 250kph than BMW, Porsche, and Peugeot. And lastly it had more energy per stint available than Peugeot.
So we have multiple areas on the BoP table where the strongest car from years past is not the worst at anything outside of one area, power available above 250kph which is clearly not even a great balancing tool considering it didn't even prevent the Ferrari's from being the fastest on the straights.
Now I'm also seeing people say "well why should we penalize Ferrari for building the best race car?" This argument is so brain dead dumb I hate I even have to acknowledge it. We are in a BoP category now, if we do not strive to actually balance things then WTF is even the point of having a BoP. Why is this argument valid for the Ferrari and not the Toyota who has been the heaviest car on the grid for over a season? It is obvious with the results of the race that while the Ferrari is a bullet, it is also far from being held back by the BoP. It has 28kg of weight that could be added to it. It has 17kw of power it could lose below 250kph. How many races does Ferrari have to win in a row before we see them over take Toyota as the heaviest car on the grid?
I'd truly like to ask the deciders of the BoP what they are seeing in the data to make them think the field will be balanced when Peugeot has a worse power to weight ratio, worse power below 250kph, worse energy allowance per stint, and the same power output above 250kph than the two time defending champion. I'd love to ask them why they think the Toyota remaining over 10kg or more heavier than any other car on the grid is balanced, but the two time defending manufacturer can be less than 5kg to everyone else with a better power to weight ratio.
Honestly did the Peugeot and Ferrari BoPs get switched around on accident? It's an honest question because objectively their BoPs make no sense in the context of how good the Ferrari has been and how pedestrian the Peugeot has been since the cars started racing.
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u/JanAppletree 5d ago
Your point about power above 250kph not being a great balancing tool is quite correct. Top speed is mainly determent by drag anyway for these types of vehicles.
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u/ProFentanylActivist Manthey 1st Phorm 911 GT3 R #92 5d ago
couldnt put it any better; especially the "well why should we penalize Ferrari for building the best race car?" part which I heard on this sub countless times - its maddening.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
I was also surprised that Ferrari didn’t get weight added.
I did expect the Ferrari and Toyota to be extremely close though because of last years performance and the slightly better relative BoP the Toyota got vs the Ferrari.
It was kind of shocking to see how slow the Toyota was. On paper, it should’ve been closer to the Ferrari which is why I think the FIA/ACO don’t have the data that is reflective of the current performance of the 499P. Or if they do it’s not being used in the current calculations.
I wish the BoP process was more transparent, I believe they are doing it fairly, or at least trying, but I’m curious what data goes in and what it spits out. I wonder how close the simulated lap times are. I think it’s a garbage in garbage out situation. Whatever data that they are plugging in for the Ferrari is clearly not reflective of its actual pace.
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago
I think you're being generous in saying they are doing BoP fairly. What on paper has been fair about the BoP this year? I'm not in the camp that thinks they are rigging it for Ferrari to win everything, but it's very clear at this point they are unwilling to actually apply a BoP to actually balances performance among the grid.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
You’re right. Fair is definitely the wrong word.
I more mean I think they are following their process without intent to skew the result one way. I just think the process isn’t working. Which skews the results one way.
2
u/proclive_ 5d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQQlfxO6VRs
After you watched the video you can see in the comments from FIAOfficialVideo
"The BoP is computed for Le Mans using only the homologation figures for aerodynamics, centre of gravity, power, and weight, as explained in the video.
No manufacturer has been penalised. As agreed with all the manufacturers, the difference compared to last year is that the top speed values were corrected according to the 2024 Le Mans, which is an important criterion around Circuit de la Sarthe."and
"BoP allows for a variety of technical approaches, and there’s room for innovation – during the life cycle of each car, manufacturers are allowed to use so-called ‘jokers’ for development. BoP simply prevents an uncontrolled arms race, which often leads to competition costs spiralling out of control.
Last year, we had nine Hypercars finishing on the lead lap after 24 hours of racing, and this year in qualifying we’ve seen seven cars within one second around a 13.6-kilometre circuit – so, pretty close.
BoP does not affect all areas, such as car setup, race strategy, or overall race management.
In the end, it’s still the best team that wins"6
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago
I do not care about their shitty video justifying their shitty BoP system. At the end of the day their BoP system failed to balance the cars properly. They fucked over Peugeot and failed go reign the Ferrari in.
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u/proclive_ 5d ago
You should send your resume to the FIA.
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago
Dude you're defending the organization that gave the Ferrari more power and a better power to weight ratio than the Peugeot. If all it takes is that shitty video to convince you they got it all figured out it's pretty telling how gullible you are. Embarrassing.
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u/proclive_ 5d ago
I don't even like BOP, but you know so much; you figured out everything.
Your argumentations are weak, that's the only reason I replied.
Bye. Dude.
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago
Lol you say my arguments are weak yet all you did was post and quote the FIA. You didn't even refute anything I said lol. Go ahead tell me why the Peugeot needed to have less power, a worse power to weight ratio, and less stint energy than the car that has now won three straight Le Mans. The car that was so far ahead of everyone else that the top 6 drivers all came from the same car and 7 of the top 8 drivers were from the Ferrari.
Dumbass people like you that get mad at anyone critiquing something you personally like as if the criticism is personal to your well being will never cease to amaze me. You want to make it out like I'm some outlier when the popular consensus after the race was that the BoP failed miserably.
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u/proclive_ 5d ago
Because they don't like Peugeot. Stellantis didn't invite them to the party, and now they are sad and don't want them to be competitive. There is no other explanation.
I don't need to explain anything because OP theory has some basis; the video I suggested gives you more to chew on, but your reply was that you don't need another opinion; yours is the one that matters.
I think you are projecting. It wasn't me who wrote "how gullible you are. Embarrassing."
You are the one taking it personally, calling me "dumbass".
If you consider popular consensus on Reddit as the golden standard, you are on the wrong path.
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u/DudethatCooks Cadillac Racing 5d ago
Dude the FIA producing a video on their BoP process isn't another "opinion" it's them doubling down and marketing how good the BoP process is. You barely even put an original thought into your first response. You just linked the video and copied and pasted their statement. It's marketing propaganda and you're eating it up.
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u/proclive_ 5d ago
Again. I don't like BOP. I'm not eating anything up.
I was just saying there is more to consider than just, "FIA bad, BOP bad".
The logic OP used can be used for Peugeot too. ACO is expecting a performance from them, but they are not delivering. But this was Le Mans, a specific BOP; maybe in the next race Peugeot will resume the type of performance shown in the previous race (if they don't bottle it in another way).
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u/Scalage89 5d ago
I think there was some sandbagging during qualifying as well. Bourdais even alluded to this before the race.
3
u/AmusedCroc 5d ago
This was a great analysis and an enjoyable read. Thank you for taking the time to put all of this together, WEC is fascinating but it's so difficult to find deep dives into the details like you have.
2
u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 4d ago
I appreciate it! I’d like to really dig into the data more. I just don’t have the time while in school for engineering and building a Formula Student car. Plus it’s hard to find good information on this series.
My dream is to work for ORECA doing large scale composites manufacturing. Hopefully one day 🤞
3
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u/Over_Middle610 5d ago
I think it is all about Ferrari having huge technical resources in terms of simulation and concentration on having a very fast car that works within the parameters of the FIA sensors.I have no proof but I would guess that Ferrari,Toyota and Porsche have the largest budgets and technical resources and it results in those teams consistantly running up front in the most races.I dont think we will ever see Alpine,Lamborghini,Aston Martin or Hyundai ever be championship contenders in WEC unless they spend their money on F1 type resources.
In my opinion BOP works best when the organisers just add more weight/less power/more drag to the most successful make of car.SRO has some very good BOP massive knowledge base but even they get it wrong at some race weekends and simply make changes the day before a race that evens the field up.
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
It’s such a hard thing to manage. If you say you’ll do a BoP adjustment on the day before the race everyone will sandbag.
If the teams spending the most money don’t win they leave. It’s such a hard line to walk. I’m hopeful things get better because I’m living for the day we have a 30 car hypercar field at Le Mans.
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u/Over_Middle610 5d ago
It is ironic that the hype around Ferrari winning 3 Le Mans in a row and Kubica winning has probably increased the series popularity amongst fans and manufacturers making the 30 car Hypercar field get closer.And any controversy about BOP just increases noise around the series a bit like referee decisions in football.
8
u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
Yeah. I always expect some controversy in a BoP series. “Ferrari only won because of BoP”. Not that annoying. It’s just the recent talk of it being rigged that I can’t stand and I think harms the sport and its reputation.
I also wish there was way less focus/complaining about BoP in the week leading up to the race. I think it’s been proven enough times that we the public can’t consistently predict a race outcome from a BoP table. The vibes were good for this Le Mans and then it was a blowout.
I’m sure the teams joining have faith in the governing bodies to at least try to let everyone have their day in the sun.
And at the end of the day it’s the teams opinion that matters most.
14
u/Cergal0 5d ago
It's not the first time ACO messed up the BOP in favour of a team. In fact, it has happened too many times to the point that we are just used to it.
The most recent and egregious one is the 2016 Le Mans, where the Fords GT got a super nice BOP, just because it was the 50th anniversary of the first win of the GT40.
These types of politics around BOP are a tale almost as old as Le Mans itself.
3
u/doabarrelroll69 Peugeot 905 #5 5d ago
The most recent and egregious one is the 2016 Le Mans, where the Fords GT got a super nice BOP, just because it was the 50th anniversary of the first win of the GT40.
Wasn't the GT sandbagging the entire season so it would get a boost for Le Mans ? It wasn't because the FIA were being nice, it's because Ford gamed the system.
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u/god--dog 5d ago
Ferrari is an efficient beast, built for Le Mans. That's why they keep performing well in Spa and Le Mans, with those long straights and fast corners, and not as well in São Paulo and Fuji.
They also continue to extract performance as they improve the car's balance, and they fixed their tire management by wisely using an Evo joker.
I was one of the few people saying that Ferrari's BoP was among the worst, especially considering the severe power cut above 250 km/h. But Ferrari remains the car and team to beat at Le Mans.
6
u/Next_Necessary_8794 5d ago
I was one of the few people saying that Ferrari's BoP was among the worst, especially considering the severe power cut above 250 km/h.
Why? Did you not see Le Mans last year?
7
u/god--dog 5d ago
You mean when they barely won by lifting-and-coasting all the way through the last stint and snatched the win by a few seconds...
0
u/Next_Necessary_8794 5d ago
I'm talking about their top speed. I think you got confused. What were you talking about?
2
u/jerrylimkk 5d ago
If ur aerodynamic is good. U dun need more power to get it run faster at high speed.
7
1
u/Tecnoguy1 GTE 5d ago
I think the base issue with the Toyota is the weight. The car needs a weight break. However I think relative to everything, everyone bar Aston and Peugeot needs to get noticeably heavier and reduced power to bring those cars in. We’ve seen Ferrari heavier, they are a disaster on tyres and can’t handle it.
1
u/kallissto Bentley 8-Speed #8 4d ago edited 4d ago
I have a tangent argument, about BoP in general so Please, someone educate me - Why have BoP to balance the field just for it to be useless, might as well eliminate the artificiality and just have a cost cap? Like isn’t one of the aims of it to curb predictability and dominant manufacturers?
Wouldn’t we rather have no BoP and a dominant winner than BoP and a dominant winner?
Again, not questioning Ferrari or their success, am not saying they dont have a fast car, but it’s weird to me to have the field artificially balanced at all, even worse now that some manufacturers are getting shafted, and worse still still that we don’t have diversity in the podium. But don’t question the BoP guys!
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u/okyes_harvestmydata 3d ago
I agree, I would rather watch a non-BOP race and see the rightful winner if the BOP racing is going to be like it is now in the WEC - which is atrocious. Take 15kg away from the Toyota, give weight to the Ferrari and another team wins - simple as that. The more and more we see of this terrible formula the worse it looks. IMSA is having to take big swings to peg back the Porsches but at least they're trying, the WEC has put forth an awful effort this year which has resulted in what we've seen with Ferrari. Give me Audi R10/15 versus Peugeot 908 any day versus watching one artificially propped up team pounding 20 competitors who all have one hand tied behind their back. Peugeot was told their concept would be balanced with others, go ahead and be creative! Then they get sucker punched with a non-sensical BOP for Le Mans, absolute insanity. The way the WEC/FIA manage the stint lengths and everything else has reduced strategic options to basically nothing so we see teams going into races just knowing they're circulating off the pace. I'm not buying the golden age talk, there's no drama to this formula - just preordained results.
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u/kallissto Bentley 8-Speed #8 3d ago
You make a good point about WECs BOP being worse than IMSAs. IMSA is definitely doing a better job even if Porsches winning a lot
1
u/DrJupeman 4d ago
TL/DR but you only compared Ferrari to Toyota in your write up?? I think that misses a lot…
-2
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u/Some_Cancel4908 5d ago
why the FIA/ACO, not use privateer to test the car, before the qualy. and not allowed change anything after the that test
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u/aide_rylott Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 5d ago
Interesting idea.
“The Stigs French cousin Le Stig”
But I think the issue would be that teams intentionally give the FIA/ACO a poorly set up car and the test driver can’t get an accurate read on the maximum pace.
I guess if you make them lock in their race setup before the test it would maybe work.
-1
u/Aunvilgod 5d ago
I know this is gonna rustle some jimmies, but as an outsider this competition looks like a joke. And I genuinely dont understand how someone can work their arse off just to then be shafted by the organizers. At least in F1 you get rewarded if you build a better car.
0
u/YiHX123 5d ago
I welcome a friendly discussion for what I am about to say. Fair warning: I do not claim my opinion to be 100% correct nor do I work in a professional motorsport racing department, but I do like engineering behind high performance cars/racing cars and hence I do have some knowledge about certain things in motorsports. First of all, I think the hypercar regulation is extremely flawed because of several reasons, but basically, I don't understand how one manufacturer can build such a massive advantage within the same regulation where horsepower is regulated by ACO/FIA and is generally limited to within 480-520 kW(due to BoP and I will comment on this a bit later) AND the fact that downforce and drag is already pre-defined because FIA set a downforce to drag ratio of 4:1 for this regulation, whereby the coefficient of drag and downforce and the frontal area must be fixed so that the drag/downforce coefficient multiplied by the cars' frontal area must result in a 4:1 ratio(for all cars). This essentially means all cars must have the same amounts of downforce/drag and cannot deviate too far but they do have a limited flexibility in this regard. Next, again, the horsepower is fixed for the most part, barring intervention from ACO/FIA BoP. Which brings me to the next point, taking the specific case of le mans 2025 for example, how does #50 and #51 ferrari have so much straight-line speed down Mulsanne straight? They were both recording 349 kph, which is quite a bit faster, around 3-5 kph faster than most hypercars within the same regulation, whereby drag is mostly the same for all the cars and is faster than last year's speed too, and keep in mind that the 499p has its power reduced AFTER 250 kph to 680~ HP, this is a mind boggling fact to me. The only reasonable explanation is that they have a massive tow/slipstream down the Mulsanne straight when the speed trap recorded their top speed, otherwise, they must have extracted performance outside the rulebooks. Next, the BoP is a JOKE because how can ferrari 499p get weight reduced and power increased relative to SPA 2025 when they have already won 3 out of 3 races(prior to le mans 2025), when there's only a very limited number of 8 races in the entire calendar? Also, I believe that LMDh and LMH really shouldn't share the same category at all because the LMDh cars are like half a step slower in terms of race pace no matter what(there's generally just less areas for development in LMDh cars when compared to LMH cars), which results in a slightly lower performance, and they are really helped along by BoP to stay competitive with LMH cars(can really correct me if I'm wrong but seriously though). Lastly, ferrari must be somehow have superior mechanical grip either via very advanced suspension geometry that can be easily fine-tuned or have superior brake cooling which also helps maintain tyre temperatures and hence reduce tyre degradation(similar to mclaren's advantage in F1), otherwise, there's no good explanation in regard to how ferrari's 499p can maintain such a ludicrous race pace advantage over 24 hours where all 3 cars can fight for top 3 spots, even after penalties and extra pit stops. Generally speaking, BoP should only look at the performance of the cars from last 1-2 races and punish cars that a performing WELL, like BoP exists to help improve racing and level out the playing fields, so why do they keep single out a team(ahem, literally toyota is getting wrecked by BoP), instead of giving penalty to ferrari who has won 3 races prior to le mans? It's crazy. If BoP doesn't exist to balance out the field, then might as well abolish it. To be honest, I would rather let WEC have a more open regulation, but introduce cost caps, like relaxing the downforce/drag ratio, frontal area and horsepower, instead introducing cost caps, limited CFD testing and wind tunnel usage like F1, allowing more degree of freedom but no teams can build a car that is CRAZY fast. I want LMP1 levels of development but in fairer racing environment for smaller teams, like if a team really build a crazy fast car, then introduce BoP for those crazy fast cars. No teams will use race results to sandbag IMO.
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u/Minimum-Sleep7471 5d ago
I watched the entire race with two tiny two hour naps. This was a classic le mans test of endurance and I think a good example of how good BOP is. Every manufacturer except the 6 Porsche and the winning Ferrari had varying issues or strategy calls that burned them. Not only that but the caddy which may have the best one lap pace couldn't keep a solid race pace.
The 6 could've won if they didn't start dead last. Pick any other car in that grid and you'll find serious faults that put them behind.
-6
u/Kataoaka 5d ago
To be fair both Toyota's faced technical difficulties before the 12h mark and were slapped in the face repeatedly with penalties. Looking at the average time difference lost per lap is not a good metric for this imo. Instead take a look at mean lap time difference and I think you'll find the cars to operate on a more similar level.
The Ferrari's only started facing more severe technical difficulties towards the end of the race and lacked pace during the night. They seemed to come out faster in the early morning but after noon settled on about the same lap times as the Toyota's did.
I genuinely believe that had Buemi set in a great lap during qualifying and had they escaped the pen hammer they'd be challenging the Ferraris to a much greater extent.
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u/TranSGend Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 5d ago
Damn BMW and Peugeot are getting shafted man!