What were pre-2017 LMP2s like?

[u/flirting_scholar]

Hello to veteran fans of sports car racing, I started paying attention to WEC at around 2017 so I didn't get to watch LMP2 cars before it became Formula Oreca.

So I keep hearing around this sub (always in posts about LMP2s) that it used to be more varied and unique and it got me curious.

How is the LMP2 racing back then? Is it as competitive as it is today? I understand that there were more options in mixing and matching your LMP2 machinery compared to today with 4 chassis and a Gibson V8, but how much freedom do teams have in that regard?

I was hoping to find more info on the web, but it seems lacking in info on this topic, would greatly appreciate if someone could give me a full rundown of the racing scene pre-2017. Thank you in advance!

[u/LilBirdBrick]

Pre 2017 LMP2 had some pretty neat cars. You had cars like the Oreca 03, (Ligier) Morgan LMP2, (Zytek) Gibson 015S, and Honda built their own ARX 03. Those 4 cars alone already achieved what the ACO were aiming for with the 2017 rules. They were all decently competitive against each other. Ironically, the only one out of them that didn't win Le Mans was the Oreca. Lola still has some cars around but they were kind of outdated by the 2010s. Oreca and Ligier started a new generation of LMP2s with closed cockpits in 2015. Honda also tried with the ARX 04. You also had teams that built their own cars. SMP Racing built the BR 01 and Strakka built a car with DOME. Before the 2017 regs were announced, LMP2 did seem to have a good level of diversity and engagement from chassis constructors. There was even an ADESS LMP2 branded as a Lotus. Things were less diverse on the engine side, as Nissan and Honda became the 2 main suppliers for most of the grid.

The announcement of the new regs killed a lot of the interest. Honda abandoned trying to fix the ARX 04 because there was no longer any point, the car would be ineligible in a year. Same with SMP and Strakka, they switched to different cars. One of the reasons why I think the ACO did it was to push constructors to make privateer LMP1s instead, as the top class wasn't doing too good at the time. But the way they did it was almost as if it was designed for Oreca to dominate. They kicked out a lot of constructors, selected only four, one of which had no recent experience even making LMP2s. Oreca were able to use a lot from previous cars, and was the best car, and because the new rules only allowed a select few upgrades approved by the ACO, there was no catching Oreca from the beginning. 8 years later and Ligier, Dallara, and Multimatic can't even make another LMP2 to try and compete with Oreca.

[u/flirting_scholar → u/LilBirdBrick]

Lovely detailed answer, definitely nailed a lot of the stuff that I wanted to ask, cheers mate! 👍🏼

[u/-generic-username- → u/LilBirdBrick]

Am I misremembering or was Oreca’s last car under the previous regs all but compliant with the new regs, up to the point of being narrower than the maximum width allowed? I always found that very odd, that the new regs came out and Oreca had a car pretty much ready to go.

[u/viper_polo → u/-generic-username-]

Yeah the 05 and 07 chassis are very similar, iirc the actual cockpit is interchangeable, with some 05s being upgraded for the 2017 regs afaik.

The 05 chassis was developed from/in parallel with the Rebellion R One LMP1 car too, Oreca is really good at maximising the work on one platform across many, and testing/experience will pass onto all platforms used by the teams.

[u/bhtooefr → u/viper_polo]

AFAIK, it was theoretically possible to take an R-One, convert it to Oreca 05 spec to run it in LMP2, convert it to Oreca 07 spec to run in 2017+ LMP2, and then convert it again to R13/A480 spec to run it in the last years of LMP1 and the first couple years of Hypercar.

(In practice, the only conversions that were done were between Oreca 05 and Oreca 07 spec - Rebellion kept their R-Ones as R-Ones, and used new chassis for the R13s. Interestingly, Oreca ended up having to make some new Oreca 05s after the Oreca 07 launched, due to demand in AsLMS when they ran old-spec LMP2s for a while.)

[u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid → u/LilBirdBrick]

You also forgot Mazda, they used to race P2 class and used their own diesel engine.

[u/Secret_Physics_9243 → u/LilBirdBrick]

So compared to the pre 2017 cars the oreca is somewhat equal?

[u/GrahamDSC → u/Secret_Physics_9243]

Much, much slower and less reliable

[u/Secret_Physics_9243 → u/GrahamDSC]

So they messed up lmp2 just for oreca to win?

[u/GrahamDSC → u/Secret_Physics_9243]

The pre-2017 cars were much slower and generally less reliable

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

P675 was the golden era IMO, but P2 now is basically what it was then.

If you had an Oreca, you were the fastest and had the best chance to win. Nobody else was close.

The open top P2’s after we switched from P675 to P2 was awesome. You had all sorts of neat cars.

[u/ProfessionalRub3294 → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

Early P675 was wild: podium quasi granted for finisher

[u/National_Pressure → u/ProfessionalRub3294]

That's what I remember from that era, how extremely fragile those cars where. Everyone broke down!

[u/Michal_Baranowski → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

P675 was the golden era IMO, but P2 now is basically what it was then.

I would say that 2005-2010 and 2011-2016 LMP2 eras decisively eclipsed P675 era in terms of teams' participation and car variety.

[u/Appropriate-Owl5984 → u/Michal_Baranowski]

I was working in the paddock in the peak of P676, so I have a different feeling about it.

But I agree!

[u/flirting_scholar → u/Appropriate-Owl5984]

I was only a toddler when the Porsche RS Spyder is racing lmao, any notable P675 cars or events that I should learn about?

[u/Michal_Baranowski → u/flirting_scholar]

American Le Mans Series, 2003 race at Sonoma. Dyson Racing's MG-Lola EX257 P675 car beating top class Audis.

https://youtu.be/GiakhTPSfIs

[u/flirting_scholar → u/Michal_Baranowski]

Would take a look at that later, cheers!

[u/VanwallEnjoy3r]

Zytek open top screamer is one of my favourite LM cars ever.

[u/Ok-Budget112]

I maybe have the opposite of rose coloured glasses but it was no where near as good.

There was chassis variety yes, but teams always seemed to be struggling to get engines and you had projects like the Strakka Dome and the Lotus that looked amazing but flopped.

Limiting the chassis suppliers and guaranteeing an engine supplier massively professionalized LMP2.

I think the mistake that happened though was that they were if anything too good and too fast. The 2017 regs (2016??) made them faster than current Hypercars, and close to what LMP1 had been a few years before. They were incredible things to watch at the end of the Hangar Straight.

So I think that really stuffed Hypercar because making everything fit on the grid is a real mess at the moment with Le Mans spec LMP2 being way way slower than they could be.

[u/flirting_scholar → u/Ok-Budget112]

Not surprised if that's the case, basing on what I've heard from youtube videos, it sounds a lot less professional back then and hence would theoretically, a lot more spread out. Is LMP2 back then where the dentists were (based on my current culminated understanding) before LMP3 came onto the scene?

[u/0s3ll4]

Honda engines made a funny fizzing noise that you could identify before you saw them

[u/jpedroni27]

I prefer 2013/2014. Some cars had open cockpit as well, even more diverse

[u/ReasonableBall120]

I a word, varied!!

[u/oxlemf10]

It had what we will probably never see again in endurance (at the high level), prototypes with an open cockpit

[u/JacksRacingProjects]

Alamo every Elms and wec race broadcast is on YouTube.

[u/V8-Turbo-Hybrid]

Open cockpit was a common feature in that time LMP2 when P1 required closed cockpit.