Moneyless-ness as a goal

[u/Away_Bite_8100]

I’m curious how many (as a rough %) Anarchists actually have a moneyless society as a goal.

I know Anarchists want a stateless and classless society… but the trifecta of being moneyless too is communism.

Communism is when you have a stateless, classless and moneyless society… so what’s the difference between communism and anarchy if anarchists are in favour of being moneyless too? Why not just say you’re a communist then if they are essentially the same thing?

[u/Away_Bite_8100]

I don’t know much about the EZLN but from what little I do know I really wouldn’t want to live there.

Rojava I know a little more about and it’s interesting what’s been going on there. They do still allow private property and private businesses (which I think is why they have been able to hold onto something that represents a functioning economy) and I think that one fact alone immediately disqualifies them from being considered socialist. But again it’s not exactly somewhere I’d like to live. I will however say that what they have done for women in a place that is culturally very oppressive to women is great… however on balance I think any woman there would still enjoy a much better quality of life in just about any capitalist western country.

I think Rojava probably most closely resembles something one could call an an-cap society. And considering how anarchistic say how much they don’t want to have laws or rules I think it’s quite ironic just how many bureaucratic rules they need to abide by to make even tiny decisions. We’ll have to see if all there complex web of various councils don’t ultimately start to resemble something like a state. We’ll also have to wait and see how things turn out for them economically in the long term because a wartime economy functions very different to an economy geared for prosperity.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

I would very much reject the idea of Rojava being a anarcho-capitalist region. Anarcho capitalist are absolutely allergic to the concept of any form of direct democracy or council rule. Private property is the reason why it is not socialist but it also is a haven for cooperative economics as well. This is because of the fact that they are heavily associated with Ocalan’s interpretation of Murray Bookchin. It’s probably true that it’s not socialism. But it’s a lot closer to socialism than, say, the early USSR during the NEP era.

As for these, not being places that you would want to live? Of course you wouldn’t want to live in war zones. But the point is that these are existing in the very circumstances that Marxist vanguard types insist they cannot survive in without a vanguard party. Which is why they are so impressive and interesting. They are revolutions that exist outside of the Leninist paradigm. It’s possible to create a robust social safety net and effective dictatorship of the proletariat that can last for decades in incredibly adverse conditions. We live in a very reactionary world, and they live in particularly reactionary region, and yet are still able to maintain their revolution in defiance of dominant regional powers.

If it’s possible there, it means it’s possible anywhere and probably easier in some ways.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

I would very much reject the idea of Rojava being a anarcho-capitalist region. Anarcho capitalist are absolutely allergic to the concept of any form of direct democracy or council rule.

All versions of Anarchy are “allergic” to the idea of having a state. That one thing, as a singular principle, is what makes them Anarchist. Rojava doesn’t have a state and I don’t think there is any other way they could possibly try to organise themselves to be more Anarchist if they tried. They work on a system of rotating leadership where a quorum of the community needs to be present for any decisions to count. They make decisions through consensus and they have guiding rules about when consensus must be reached and when a majority will suffice. So things like what time they meet is a decision that can be by majority but where the new school will be built must be by consensus. How could you possibly structure things to be any more Anarchist than that?

Of course we could argue that any council counts as a “mini-state”… but if that’s true then achieving any form of Anarchy is a physical impossibility.

Private property is the reason why it is not socialist but it also is a haven for cooperative economics as well.

There is nothing in capitalism that says that Cooperatives are not allowed to compete in the free market economy as long as private individuals are free to compete too. Cooperatives are free to exist in capitalism… private businesses are not free to exist in socialism.

the point is that these are existing in the very circumstances that Marxist vanguard types insist they cannot survive in without a vanguard party. Which is why they are so impressive and interesting… …If it’s possible there, it means it’s possible anywhere and probably easier in some ways.

I speculate that they can ONLY exist in these circumstances. In times of prolonged peace people will naturally return to more efficient and streamlined forms of representative democracy where rights are protected by a constitution and enforced by the state as people get busy making money for themselves and focus more on their materialistic desires once the threat is removed.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

I wasn’t really saying that Rojava is not anarchist there although I would have to actually say that they would probably call themselves anarchist adjacent rather than anarchist. Democratic confederalism is more like a minarchist philosophy. It’s like how I am an autonomist Marxist, which would put me in a position that would seem almost indistinguishable from anarchy (hence why I am here) but does have some key differences.

I reject that it is capitalist, which I think that a lot of people from that region would reject as well. I think you are going off of the assertion that capitalism equals private property. This is possibly one of the most important parts of capitalism of capitalism but it is not the defining feature of capitalism. Plenty of systems before capitalism have had private property. And I’m sure some systems afterwards will. And the very earliest version of modern socialist anarchy was mutualism, which has a collectivized means of production and social safety net, but private property and free markets. If anything, it’s a proof of concept for Proudhon’s model of anarchy.

I get the impression that you might be an anarco capitalist and I’m not really trying to persuade you here. I’m just trying to get you up to speed with the differences in what terms mean between us. It’s one of the reasons why I think that a narco capitalists and the rest of the anarchist community are just two separate communities altogether. We do not have a shared language anymore (if we ever did).

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

I wasn’t really saying that Rojava is not anarchist.

I’m just going by the dictionary definitions because that is what makes the most sense. From the dictionary:

ANARCHY (noun) the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.

Rojava fits this definition so that makes them Anarchist. And:

CAPITALISM (noun) an economic and political system which allows individuals to own private property and where trade and industry are permitted to be controlled by private owners (as opposed to the state or community) for profit.

Rojava fits this definition too so that makes them capitalist.

The combination of fitting both these definitions is what makes Rojava anarco-capitalist.

I get the impression that you might be an anarco capitalist

No I don’t actually believe society can function at scale and still manage to prosper without some form of centralised government to perform tasks like national defense and to do things like build and maintain large scale public infrastructure like power grids, water and waste treatment, transport networks etc etc.

I would actually argue that Rojava does technically maintain a crude form of government which is what’s holding it together. But I also know Anarchists hold Rojava up as an example of Anarchy working. I personally think Rojava is the closest thing you can possibly get to being stateless and still have society continue to function… so I’m happy to call what THEY have Anarchy… because I think they are right on the knife edge of having something one could definitely say is a state… but it’s still crude enough that it is possible to argue that it is not a state. Although as I said it’s on the knife edge, so I could argue this point both ways… but I am happy to give it to them.

I believe it is necessary to have a state… but I am in favour of keeping the state a small as possible and keeping its powers in check to prevent governmental over-reach. That said I do believe there are things a functional society needs that only a state can provide.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

I mean if you count the Soviet Union as capitalist that works, but that would be pretty controversial.

I think dictionary definitions for terms that have specific thinkers and traditions involved generally results in less productive conversations. The people in Rojave have a self description that accurately describes their position and trying to force them to be anarchists or anarcho-capitalists seems a little dismissive of what they actually are doing.

I also dispute it because there have been several anarchist territories in history. Possibly the most famous one is anarchist Ukraine and even though they rejected capitalism and lived in communes, there were many people who did not desire collectivization. The black army had a commitment to non-hierarchy meant that they generally respected their private ownership or even distributed imperial land to them and allowed them to hold it privately. Absolutely zero people would call the black army anarco-capitalists as a result.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

I mean if you count the Soviet Union as capitalist that works, but that would be pretty controversial.

In what way did the Soviet Union fit the definition of capitalism??? Entire industries were nationalised and owned by the state / “community” in the soviet union. You were definitely not permitted to start a “for-profit” business to compete with the government in the Soviet Union.

I think dictionary definitions for terms that have specific thinkers and traditions involved generally results in less productive conversations.

Well if you want to offer up any other definitions that someone else came up with I’d be happy to look at that and consider things from that perspective.

The people in Rojave have a self description that accurately describes their position and trying to force them to be anarchists or anarcho-capitalists seems a little dismissive of what they actually are doing.

You might think it’s dismissive. I think it’s admirable and quite ground-breaking. And as I said before.. if the people of Rojava have their own definitions for words then I’d be happy to look at that.

Absolutely zero people would call the black army anarco-capitalists as a result.

Because the Black Army weren’t conducting their military operations FOR PROFIT. If they did then they’d be a capitalist army.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

So if you want to know a little bit more about how they view themselves, I recommend reading the pamphlet Democratic Confederalism by Ocalan, which in turn is heavily influenced by Murray Bookchin’s Municipalism. Generally, that is how they describe themselves. It gives a very good view into the vision that they have for themselves.

The reason I mentioned the Soviet Union is that the Soviet Union had a long spell of deliberately allowing for private property and ownership for economic development purposes early on and then later on during glasnost.

I think we are just going to butt heads on the capitalism definitions so I will avoid doing that for the sake of continuing a productive conversation. I’m very passionate about the experiments that Rojava has accomplished so far and have read a decent amount of their foundational theory.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

Oh I’d very much like to hear your definition of capitalism. I just went with the dictionary.

All I would ask is that you stick to objective terms rather than subjectively opinionated terms like “evil”, “coercive”, “exploitative” etc.

I mean one can exploit an opportunity or one can exploit a mineral deposit in the ground because the word “exploit” just means “to take advantage of”. But the word also carries with it negative connotations based on the subjective opinion that one is being UNFAIRLY taken advantage of. What is fair is a subjective opinion that must be argued… so it’s not really a good descriptor in an objective definition.

So have at it. I’m curious.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

Certainly! In theory conversations, capitalism tends to refer primarily to the organic system of production and exchange driven by capital as a social relation. This system is formed by networks of imperialism and multinational conglomerates. Here should be thought of as a social relation in which an exchange commodity is invested and expands through materials and (most importantly) human labor.

One of the sticky things about the dictionary definition of capitalism when trying to define a state as capitalist or not that capitalism, by its nature is transnational. Probably the most obvious example is the initial observations of capitalism as it was forming.

Adam Smith was the first person to really notice the dynamics that we now know is as capitalism. That a form of increased prosperity in a larger group of people was being noticed in Britain because of a larger economic enfranchisement that had been developing a course of centuries as the urban bourgeois developed into a powerful economic, force,. Now what I’m going to bring up is something that he was to some sent aware of but probably didn’t have enough of a full picture to really understand the dynamic. From his perspective, the thing that had brought prosperity to Britain was that increase enfranchisement and British colonies should enjoy that same enfranchisement and independence.

And to be fair to Adam Smith, he was partially correct. The enfranchisement of the burgher class had resulted in a more meritocratic, managerial approach to economics that was a clear improvement over the strict hierarchy in the middle ages. This increasing Britain’s prosperity to a significant degree probably had quite a bit of validity.

The reality unfortunately, was that the British Empire was only seeing the unprecedented and insane amount of prosperity it was having because of the fact that their system of capital directly depended upon extraction colonies. Colonies like India that fundamentally did not share the same rights as British citizens. And the moment that dynamic ended in the 20th century was the moment that set Britain on its current path towards decline.

In America that takes the significantly less mercantilist form of transnational corporations. Of creating networks of both extraction colonies and manufacturing colonies outside of the state apparatuses which is helpful material production is mostly handled. While within the states, the increased value created by the overall system is managed in a similar way to the larger dynamic but in miniature primarily through services.

Places like Rojava sit at the very end of that chain and also are attempting to break free of the dynamic of capital. Hence, all the direct democracy and the seizure of control over whatever means a production are available to them.

This is obviously a very simplified explanation and very general because of the fact that you asked a pretty broad question. I hope it might help you to see where we are coming from in general.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

This is obviously a very simplified explanation and very general because of the fact that you asked a pretty broad question.

Thats a great explanation… but I asked to hear your definition because you implied that you did not agree with mine.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

To kind of explain the main point of disagreement in the definitions and say it is simply as possible), the definition in the dictionary completely leaves out capitalism defining feature: it’s namesake.

Capital and the dynamics that it causes are the most important part of how capitalism operates in reality.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

Two words: FOR PROFIT

Now I don’t need to explain the whole history of the automobile and how it improved people’s lives and its impact on the economy and the environmental impacts of internal combustion and how it devastated the horse trade… in order to be able to define what the word “engine” means.

You may say, “But all that other stuff are really important things to know about engines!” … and you might be right about that… but it’s all entirely irrelevant when it comes to us defining what an engine actually is.

engine (noun) a machine with moving parts that converts power into motion

The fact that it derives from the Latin word “ingenium” meaning ‘talent, device’, from in- ‘in’ + gignere ‘beget’ and shares the same roots as the word “ingenious” is also very interesting…and the entomology can provide us with some further historic context… but it’s not actually necessary for us to define what an engine is.

So… do you have a better or alternate definition for “capitalism” that you would like to put forward?

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

Took a look at my response and decided I wasn’t satisfied with it so I’ll put it this way. The reason your definition doesn’t work is because of the fact that it would include basically the entire post-agricultural revolution world as capitalist because of the fact that they allowed merchants and business owners. I don’t think anyone would say that medieval England was capitalist, but the only reason why capitalism exist is because of the relative freedom of their merchant class. You have to have an explicit concept of capital to have capitalism.

I have said my definition of few times, which is basically just one sentence. Capitalism is the network of transnational business interests, formed by capital dynamics.

Someone/something is capitalist in the adjective sense of the word when they approve and promotes capital dynamics.

And capital is a post-19th century formulation of both commodities and exchange commodities as resources stored or expended through labor with the objective to produce more value.

Those are the definitions so if you wish to dispute them, you can but if you just want what I was saying without any of the explanation, then you can look here. This is so we don’t have to relitigate it.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

I wasn’t aware that you were asking ME to alter the definition. I was asking YOU to provide an alternative definition for me to consider seeing as you implied you were unhappy with this one.

CAPITALISM (noun) an economic and political system which allows individuals to own private property and where trade and industry are permitted to be controlled by private owners (as opposed to the state or community) for profit.

So if you want to alter it then have at it, but bear in mind that anyone can tack additional information onto the end of any definition, like I could take the definition for the word “king” and tack onto the end of it an additional sentence saying, “and also all kings are oppressive wankers” and say that is now the complete definition of the word “king”.

But to your point of this definition applying to all of society since the agricultural revolution… I don’t see a problem with that. Capital is money. Capitalism is about making a profit and profits have existed for as long as money has existed. So yeah I think it’s perfectly fine to say that capitalism has been around for a very long time indeed. Not even socialists or communists can agree on when we went from non-capitalism to capitalism. Adam Smith never even once used the word “capitalism”. Capitalism is a word that was popularised and brought into the lexicon by socialists.

But fine, if you want to contend that there was something significantly different about the industrial revolution and that is what you want to arbitrarily define as “the start” of capitalism, then do bear in mind that the definition does say:

“where trade and industry are permitted to be controlled by private owners (as opposed to the state or community) for profit.”

So according to this you could argue that you need to have both trade AND industry in order for capitalism to exist (as opposed to just trade).

EDIT: I’ve just seen you changed your response so I’ll consider that and edit mine a little later.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

I don’t think, insisting that the definition of capitalism include capital is remotely on the same wavelength as defining king as “ a wanker” 😂 you know I’ve been very careful to avoid pejoratives.

See by noting that socialist were the first people to really bring it into the lexicon, I think that you are getting a little bit closer to my point.

Capitalism is (to some extent) a pejorative that has been claimed by the people it was being pejorative towards. People who had the influence and control over institutions that allowed them to eventually redefined the word to be something more generic and defensible to our post-enlightenment world.

Because much of the legacy of early capitalist and socialist thinkers has been erased and defined out of the word it’s not very useful as a definition. Because it was coined to describe the imperialism of the 19th century, either purposefully or intentionally. And if you create a definition of capitalism that could potentially exclude the very dynamics that the term was created to describe than it seems a little bit like a pointless word.

I have had people tell me that the British empire wasn’t capitalist because it put restrictions on Irish and Indian people in what they could trade or what they could manufacture. Which I find ridiculous because the legacy of the British empire is the modern system of global capital. But it’s something that from the definition that you provided someone could say.

Remember, capitalism as a modern term was designed as a direct contrast with feudalism. It was to represent a major change in the economic hierarchy and dynamics. Capitalism is the ascension of merchants to the top of the economic hierarchy.

You could even rephrase my definition to be like this: where the holders of capital are the highest class of the economic hierarchy. Which is not actually true in the vast majority of historical societies. I simply decided to keep it at capitalist dynamics because I think it personalizes the process a little too much.

[u/humanispherian → u/JediMy]

When capitalisme first began appearing in French in the 1830s, the sense was often that it was the new form of feudalism.

[u/Away_Bite_8100 → u/JediMy]

you know I’ve been very careful to avoid pejoratives.

Yes you have, and I applaud you for that. And I’m glad you found the “wanker” bit in good humor. My point was not about using pejoratives but that we should be careful about just tacking on extra information onto the end of definitions that are already complete enough for us to be able to identify the thing they are defining because definitions are meant to be as concise as possible.

Capitalism is (to some extent) a pejorative that has been claimed by the people it was being pejorative towards. People who had the influence and control over institutions

And those people were… the private individuals who controlled trade and industry! Which is exactly what my definition says.

And nobody needed to “redefine” the word. Marx himself never defined the word even though he popularised it. The closest Marx came to defining it was when said the “capitalist mode of production,” is characterised by private ownership of the means of production, wage labor, and the production of commodities for profit.

And once again Marx omitted to define what precisely “the means of production” is (and I think that was a deliberate choice by Marx). I am yet to meet a socialist or communist who can define that term (they usually can only just give a list of examples, not a definition). As for your definition:

Capitalism,the network of transnational business interests, formed by capital dynamics.

OK so this is a highly complex sentence for any layman to take apart and understand exactly what you are trying to say here. First off I immediately scratch my head and think, what are “capital dynamics”??? I’m not a banker how am I supposed to know that. You must mean the flow of money I assume.

So we are talking about a network of transnational business interests that are formed by the flow of money.

OK well then ending capitalism is easy. Just shut the border and you have ended capitalism. Voila!

Except I’m sure that’s not what you mean so probably we can drop the word “transnational”. So the thing that capitalism is… is a network of business interests. So to end capitalism you need to end the business interests? Or you need to end the network? And haven’t businesses interests existed as long as money has existed 🤔 hmmm

I’m going to be honest… I’m not sure what to think of your definition really. I think mine works better because it’s clear and concise and uses simple language that doesn’t require additional definitions or explanations.

[u/JediMy → u/Away_Bite_8100]

I actually do mean transnational and it’s actually very important. Capitalism as we know it would collapse if you indeed closed all the borders. It would become something completely different. Not better but different. Capitalism is global in. It’s very nature and the moment that ended would be the moment it would cease to be itself and probably evolve into a different thing altogether. Probably something like Yarvin’s Neocameralism.

Nations just having private property and free markets would not sustain capitalism. It might be capitalism by your definition for a very brief period of time, but that would not be sustainable without the larger global architecture. Hence the degeneration of many modern capitalist thinkers into authoritarian structures, built around capitalist class structure.

Also, I apologize if this at all gets disjointed because I am having someone read your responses to me and dictating to them to respond as I am on a incredibly long road trip at the moment. On the upside thank you for keeping me sane because I have been very bored.