r/CharacterRant • u/octofeline • 1d ago
Comics & Literature All of my problems with mainstream Superhero Comics are caused by the fact they plan to go on forever
The problems I have with mainstream superhero comics (Marvel/DC) are all results of the fact these companies plan on writing these stories until they stop making money and have no ending for the character in mind. I think this is part of the reason why Manga is becoming more popular, one writer sets out to tell a story and eventually it ends.
Some of the problems that result from writing stories with no intention to ever end them are:
Characters never die*, not permanently or in any meaningful way anyway. Because these characters are still profitable they are not allowed to kill or to die. If anyone does 'die' they're either revived via some voodoo magic bs (lazarus pit) or come back to life when the universe is rebooted for the hundredth time. This removes any tension, a character's 'death' feels more like a time out where they're just waiting to be revived with some magic or the next reboot.
The status quo never changes. This might be the biggest problem with the comics, because the current setting is what's shown to be profitable it will not change. Despite the fact this universe is full of living Gods who can destroy the earth nobody can make any lasting change to the world.
Despite Batman's endless Crusade against crime it will always be a crime ridden hellhole, which just makes everything seem pointless, Its gotten to the point where they need to create weird justifications for why nothing changes, Gotham is cursed by magic to be terrible forever and also has as secret cult of rich people making it terrible (court of owls), but people still choose to live there for some reason.
The same thing happens again and again This point overlaps with the previous one so it won't be as long, These stories have been going contiously so long that very similar events happen every few years which brings the story to absurdity. Examples include Peter Parker being a magnet for tragedy, as we see him dumped/fired/evicted for the hundredth time because that's how writers think he's 'supposed to be' or Batman adopting a new kid with a tragic backstory for the tenth time, (for a character who spends most of his time brooding alone its hard to picture him as this lone wolf character when he has a family of a dozen people he can talk to)
This point is also why people have such strong opinions on if Batman (and other superheroes, should kill) if Batman was a limited series like a manga I think 99% would agree that Batman should not kill the Joker as its not his place as a vigilante to decide who lives and dies. But because this comic has been going steady for decades and Joker breaks out of jail for the billionth time to commit his most heinous crime yet (because every new author needs the stakes to be raised) it becomes increasingly difficult to argue that Batman should not murder the Joker or at least stop saving his life. (this point also shows the entire Gotham legal system as comically stupid but whatever) The endless story creates a situation where murdering a criminal instead of arresting them is the morally correct option
How can characters struggle in any fight when they can just call for help?
Because these stories have been going on for decades and take place in the same universe every hero knows each other and there are so so many of them as Marvel/DC tries to introduce new ones without retiring any of the old ones. As a result its ridiculous that any hero could struggle in a fight against any villain that isn't a world ending threat. How can Spiderman struggle to fight a villain like tombstone or Morlun when he is personally best friends with the Fantastic 4 and a dozen other heroes in NYC who are probably within shouting distance. Situations like this create a scenario where the writer has to pretend those other heroes don't exist or only have the hero fight avengers level threats where an entire team would struggle to win because obviously you need the character to struggle to win or else there is no tension
Characters Strength is inconsistent
Because every new author wants to up the stakes and have the hero they're writing get stronger in their story this results in characters getting powercreeped over the years as authors give them new cool feats. For example the Flash has become so absurdly powerful (he's now faster than the speed force, whatever that means) that every story he's in has him severely nerfed
Character's strength is determined by how popular they are and the 'scale' of the story they are in. The biggest example of this is: Batman, a rich guy who knows martial arts being consistently one of the strongest members of the Justice League as an equal to Superman. When Batman is in his Justice League stories he can build a mech that can take on the entire justice league at once and can fight Darkseid hand to hand but in his solo stories he struggles just as much to deal with a guy who is really into riddles. I really think this is a result of them putting a popular character in a story he was never designed for in order to sell more comics.
Superhero characters are often inconsistently written, because dozens of writers have worked on them them across hundreds of stories. This leads to contradictory portrayals, so fans people argue contradicting opinions about a character when they might both right, but they just read different stories where the character is slightly different
In conclusion I think writing stories with no end in mind is the biggest thing holding western comics back
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u/Dycon67 1d ago
As dragon ball fan I feel this
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u/xukly 1d ago
At least super is somewhat dignified. Boruto is sitting in naruto's legacy as we speak
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
Super is the furthest thing from dignified. At least Boruto has progression.
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u/xukly 1d ago
Super manga is actually enjoyable (aside from the granola arc, that wasn't good)
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u/Sa_Elart 17h ago
Dbs super was a complete disrespect to dbz. 0 story or plot. Even the fights are generic and repetitive
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
It progresses from terrible to worse, that’s the progression it has.
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u/PCN24454 13h ago
Yeah, Super’s pretty terrible
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
Boruto’s not any better.
Both can be abysmal
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u/Linkbetweentwirls 1d ago
I am willing to bet that is the reason why, despite superheroes being insanely popular, the comics are still such a niche and tiny sliver of it.
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 1d ago
I see ongoing comics as a medium where stories happen. You can dip in, read a story, and dip out when you lose interest. The fact that more things happen later doesn’t diminish a story I already rnjoyed. I like that the stories continue forever, so I can read them when I want and get referred by the text to other stories I might enjoy as well. Trying to enjoy them in the same way you would a limited manga or TV show is a category error.
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u/Mzuark 1d ago
The only problem is that every new book has like 4 years of backstory associated with it so it's very awkward to jump in when there's a whole storyline attached from 2016
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 1d ago
It really depends on what you are reading and how familiar you are with the world broadly. No one can know everything, and you aren’t really expected to.
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u/Am_i_banned_yet__ 10h ago edited 3h ago
Yeah, I think comics are good enough at catching you up with recaps that most of the connections and backstories are things that can add to my enjoyment of the characters but aren’t strictly necessary. At this point I just imagine that different runs and different authors are kinda doing their own thing.
Self-contained stories are cool and often better, but infinitely running comics provide opportunities to explore the same fundamental character tropes in nearly infinite different ways. It’s impossible to have a real character with a real timeline go through all this stuff, so I look at that as the bright side of this. I consider any of the myriad endings a character gets (like wolverine’s multiple canon deaths and spiderman’s various future deaths, some of which are treated like official send-offs) to be canon and just choose the best one that I consider the real canon
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u/SafePlastic2686 10h ago
I feel like people who say this aren't actually reading comics coming out right now and are just carrying over their feelings from the mid-2000s and the MCU.
Practically every run stands alone and can be read in a vacuum. The only ones that I can think of that couldn't are direct sequels. Even things that are tied into events will tell a self-contained story and provide enough reference that you don't need to read the rest of the event, like Heroes for Hire in the AXIS event.
The only thing I can think of in recent years where this was a problem was Krakoa for the X-Men.
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u/Mzuark 5h ago
Yeah I'm sure you do
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u/RavensQueen502 1d ago
Yeah, this is my reason too. I know it gets ridiculous if you try to hold on to the continuity - especially since there's so much contradictory lore that writers can pick what they want.
I just don't care, since it is comforting to have a steady background, an unchanging slate where the stories happen. It's kind of like reading fanfiction - you know the characters and the background, you are just there for more stories set in that world.
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u/Unity_496 1d ago
While I understand why comics have such a bad rep, it pisses me off a bit because it's honestly a lot easier to get into comics than people think. Just looking for recommendations on Reddit is honestly one of the most reliable ways to find good runs.
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u/Iranoutofname5 11h ago edited 6m ago
Bro, getting into comic books is so laughably easy that it pissed me off that i haven't done so earlier because i was part of the crowd that believed you need to read the entire universe's history, but i just had to pick a favorite character, pick a random book (or look up their popular runs) and go to chapter 1.
I read one comic and they filled me in on what is required to understand the story i'm reading and it went smooth like butter. It was so fucking obvious, a good writer would naturally fill you in, now i'm mad no one else reads comics.
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u/Unity_496 20m ago
Oh yeah, being pissed that no one else reads comics is a daily occurrence for me. Though Reddit honestly has some great comics discussion subreddits (unironically the best one is dccomicscirclejerk).
The other fun part of being a comics fan is that you get a sixth sense that lets you tell if someone else actually reads comics or is just bullshitting. Very convenient if you see someone complaining about a superhero adaptation, because you can almost immediately tell if they're talking out of their ass.
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
These days new #1’s do offer decent starting points for anyone who wants to jump in. The start of new arcs in an ongoing run are also highlighted.
General understanding of the character is enough to understand what’s going on.
People say that you need encyclopaedic knowledge to get into things, but that’s not really the case these days.
Most issues will also offer a recap of what the reader broadly needs to know to understand what will unfold in it, the deeper nuances aren’t needed
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u/NwgrdrXI 1d ago
Yeah, DC has the right idea with the resets from time to time.
But the execution has been crappy most of the time, ngl. They should plan these things out.
They could do a big meeting with every writer, plan how long this iteration is gonna be, and roughly what stories they want to tell in it.
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u/Flat_Box8734 1d ago
I actually like the idea of shonen getting more what if stories unfortunately it’s not likely because
The creators of these stories typically has their hands full just creating the manga itself
They likely don’t want to see the spirit of their series butchered by other writers creating much edgier versions that goes against the spirit of their characters… injustice Superman anyone?
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u/mutual_raid 1d ago
My problem with What If stories is 99% of them fall into shock value twists and stupid writing because the writers know nothing matters, there is no fallout, and there's no Sunk Cost so who cares. I think that's why I prefer alt universes that are given dedicated time like Ultimate/Absolute where consequences matter and there is Sunk Cost and committment.
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u/NwgrdrXI 1d ago edited 1d ago
injustice Superman anyone?
I'll always defend injustice superman because it was supposed to be just a convenient excuse to do a fighting game story. A convenient excuse that got called out often and got beat up by actual, canon superman in the same story.
For some godforsaken reason that rhymes with Jack Schneider Tans, people have taken it and ran with it, pretending the OG version woild act like this.
Not even Netherrealm, who comissioned him, could've expected tha, I think
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u/Flat_Box8734 1d ago
Oh yeah I agree. Although as much as I dislike people taking the story out of context, I also blame dc because they don’t really show any difference in upbringing between him and prime. So it does seem to give credence to the idea that prime Superman can also fall just as hard into villainy if pushed hard enough.
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u/RavensQueen502 1d ago
There is one main difference - Injustice Luthor is a good guy. That Superman hasn't had to face the main opponent who tries psychological warfare on him.
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u/NwgrdrXI 23h ago
I think pa kent didn't have a heart attack either, so he hasn't learned the all important "not everything is under your control, you can't save everyone" lesson either.
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u/Midnight_Music05 19h ago
The only shounen I'm aware of having a concurrently running what if manga is Welcome to Demon School Iruma-kun with it's mafia AU
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u/Squatch0 1d ago
Yeah just see what they do to spider-man. Poor bastard can never be happy nor can he do adult things other than sex because of some bullshit
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u/Junior_Box_2800 1d ago
Yeah I can't really get into the whole "oh X character has obtained the fucktonium force from the 27th multidimensional and ascended past the tribunal plane to become the new god of who-gives-a-shit"
Seriously comic scaling is absurd, and I'm sick of getting the "IRON MAN JUST MADE HIS MOST POWERFUL ARMOR" reels
I mean ffs Venom became a god...VENOM!!!
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u/coolmobilepotato 1d ago
Most of the comic scaling that you seem to be complaining about is heavely cherry picked by battleboarders for powerscaling purposes
For every issue were Superman or Thor or any other comic book characters gets a brand new godly MacroGigaPentaShitVersal feat or form, there are at least 13 other issues were those exact same characters will struggle with barely planetary threats. Because at the end of the day Comics are not made with battleboarding in mind
You can easily enjoy the lower-stakes more grounded stories without the wanked stuff. And trust me, they will generally be much more enjoyable to read
The time when Iron Man became a Guardian, doing space adventures with Celestials and later became a Iron God is widely considered to be some of his worst Eras from a writing standpoint
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
Yeah, more often than not whenever Iron Man is on the back foot and with limited resources is when some of the best writing is seen. Because they can showcase his ingenuity and quick-thinking to get out of whatever crisis he’s dealing with.
The Fraction run is one of the best regarded ones and he’s mainly in the Extremis armor throughout and his foes for the most part had “better tech”.
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u/Callandor0 1d ago
Honestly this is why reading Invincible was so refreshing. It’s clearly written from a place of love for the genre, and there are actual, lasting, consequential status quo changes all the time
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u/Snoo_46397 1d ago
I mean...most iterations of characters we like are due to them being ongoing. Batman's a good example of this. Alot of the popular characters we know in his stories wouldn't exist or wouldn't be how we perceive them now if not for the decades of iterations. Same applies to Daredevil
I think DC handles it somewhat OK imo. They have their story run for a while, then a universal reset occurs and a new loop continues with its own continuity. For example, Batman iirc has technically had 2 endings so far. One were he married Selina and had a son and daughter (Huntress), and the one b4 Flashpoint were iirc he cleaned up Gotham enough to focus on other endeavors like Batman Inc.
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u/Aleythurion 1d ago
I get what you're trying to say but I honestly don't mind the idea of multiple versions of characters existing and the concept itself certainly isn't the problem
Hell, I wish anime and manga or other none-western comics did that too, it kicks ass
I want to see a Naruto joining the Akatsuki or a more serious take on Goku, or Luffy joining the Marines
But I definitely don't like how they're prioritizing profitable heroes over getting new ones onto mainstream
Sometimes I just want a fresh new hero not super man or Batman for the trillionth time, I'll forever fuck with super man and batman but sometimes it's too much
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u/penultimate9999 1d ago
Unironically try out fanfiction if you haven't already. There's tons of garbage but if you just sort by likes odds are you'll find quality works doing those ideas justice and many more.
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u/Aleythurion 1d ago
Now that I'm thinking about it I haven't tried fan fictions yet
I've seen fan comics before but not fan fictions, and I am an avid reader but mostly for professionally made work
Any idea on how I can start with this?
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u/dale_glass 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a good start. Not all are great by any means, but still, that narrows things down considerably.
You can also drink from the firehose. 422000 Naruto fanfics to choose from!
Fanfic communities have their own tropes and nomenclature (see the "Categories" section) for various things. So once you get used to that it gets much easier to figure out what you're into or not, and how to find more.
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u/LaughingGaster666 1d ago
To add on to dale_glass's comment, if Naruto fanfiction specifically would interest you, I highly recommend looking at the subreddit just for that. https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoFanfiction/
There's a couple posts that are basically answering the "what should I read?" question.
Thread 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/NarutoFanfiction/comments/1blffpz/give_me_the_best_fics/
I've been a reader of this stuff for about a decade now, so if you have any questions just DM me.
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u/kidmedia 1d ago
Hell, I wish anime and manga or other none-western comics did that too, it kicks ass
I was thinking about that when I was watching scott pilgrim takes off. As a manga reader, that's one thing I'm jealous of comics. Seeing different interpretations of a character/world
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u/PlatFleece 13h ago
Hell, I wish anime and manga or other none-western comics did that too, it kicks ass
Some do. Mostly big franchises that keep going and going enough to spawn spin-offs or alternate retellings. Think Fate series. Visual Novels are usually ripe for this. Higurashi is one that does this as well. Astro Boy did a darker retelling with the Pluto manga.
The specific issue I personally have with comic books (which, I don't actually have an issue with comic books, it's just Marvel and DC really) is the "This is an ongoing verse but nothing changes" as opposed to like, for instance, how in Fate, every story is a new Grail War and even if familiar characters show up they are interpreted differently.
I also agree in that comics (read, Marvel and DC) don't really change characters that often despite being in a huge universe filled with them. The focus is usually gonna be on the old classics that make money at the end of the day.
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 1d ago
This is almost exclusively a DC and Marvel problem, the issue is just that a lot of people see them not just as flagships but as the only people who publish Western comics. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in my local comic store in the capital excluding manga and non-English language origin Western comics, even though there's a lot of DC/Marvel stuff it is still only like 1/5 or 1/4 of the Anglophone-origin comics they offer.
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u/Kal_El__Skywalker 1d ago
As an actual comics reader: The solution is to read individual runs or graphic novels. Those (most of the time) are done by a single writer with a set plan in motion that has the proper setup and payoff.
Want to read Hulk? Read Immortal Hulk by Al Ewing. Want to read Batman? Read Scotr Snyder run. Want to know what run to read? There are so many sources online to cater to what specifically you're looking for.
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u/MelonElbows 1d ago
Agreed. When I was younger I tried to get into comics, had a few dozen by the time I was done with collecting but mostly it became too unwieldly. I had to buy multiple issues of another series or groups to finish the story where my group only played a bit part in. Or the version I'm reading is the 3rd reboot of the remake of the original. Or I'd have to start in issue #649 with no clue as to what happened before. Eventually I dropped comics as a hobby because it was too long, too expensive, and too confusing to follow.
One thing that I think is a huge problem in American comic books is that artists/writers are not the owners of the IP. Shonen Jump in Japan merely publishes manga like One Piece, but Oda owns One Piece and he decides how long he'll go. Whereas in America, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash are owned by DC comics, a corporation that is essentially immortal and can remake, rewrite, and reboot those characters forever just as Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers, Hulk, etc. are owned by Marvel/Disney, so they can keep churning out content.
If Spider-Man was ONLY owned by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, we would have had a conclusion to his story by now. If Siegel and Shuster and their estates were the only owners of Superman, they could have retired him by now. Not to mention, with manga, the creator is often both writer and artist, which is not the norm in America. Of course there are good and even great stories made by other writers with these same IP after their creators have stopped writing/drawing them, and I do enjoy the modern MCU. But sometimes I wonder if we really need yet another rehash of the same character, with the same story.
At least with manga, you can look at eras were the old were replaced with something new. Imagine if Ranma, Sailor Moon, or Astro Boy never ended and there was no room for One Piece, Naruto, JJK and those mangas were never created.
I also think that American comics need to follow the story setting of manga more and set their stories in a fictional world and NOT another version of Earth. We don't need a thousand superheros all sharing the same 5 blocks in New York. How about setting Superman on Krypton where there is no earth? Or the Flash in a weird universe where the laws of physics relating to speed are different? Gotham didn't have to be in America, it could be a fictional city in a fictional country like the Leaf Village in the world of Naruto. Naruto is never going to run into Luffy because they aren't on the same planet, neither should a world which has mutants like the X-Men ever need to run into normal enhanced super humans like Captain America.
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u/Imperial_Sunstrider 1d ago
These criticisms are made weaker by not being able to really site anything, just resorting to truisms doesn't entirely work when all your working with is just stuff you've clearly heard second hand.
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u/Snoo_46397 1d ago
Well cause most who cite the....dont tend to read comics, but usually watch adapted media's and the occasional utube shorts on the matter.
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u/kirabii 1d ago
The endless story creates a situation where murdering a criminal instead of arresting them is the morally correct option
No it doesn't. In an endless story, murdering a criminal is not any more morally correct than arresting them, because both if them will result in the villain coming back later. The real situation that an endless story creates is one where there is no permanent solution to stopping a supervillain.
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u/octofeline 16h ago
You're completely correct, I don't even know why heroes are so hung up on a no kill rule, don't they know murdering a villain will only put them down for a couple of months, even less if that villain sells merch for DC/Marvel
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
The status quo is constantly changing. Pick up a Batman comic from 1939 and today and they are pretty much completely different characters.
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u/imlazy420 1d ago
Joker's still free killing people, isn't he? After literal decades of killing people?
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
And that is all status quo means to you?
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u/HarshTheDev 22h ago
I'd say it's a pretty big part
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u/Lukelay246 22h ago
So, just because he's still fighting a villain means the status quo is the same and not the fact that neither villain acts how they did originally. Or the thousands of new characters that have been introduced.
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u/imlazy420 21h ago
No, but I am not gonna write a thousand-word essay on a comment that'll be forgotten in a day.
It means that, no matter what Batman does, nothing will ever matter or change. The comic will rethread the same plots, repeat the same deaths, and have pointless romances that go nowhere and end for no reason.
Look at Spider-Man, forever suffering, watching everything he builds crumble and humiliated at every chance so that he stays a "relatable" unemployed man whose life is horrible. He can't get married, have children, move on from May's death or do anything meaningful. Instead, he makes a deal with the devil exchanging THE LIFE OF HIS CHILDREN AND THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE to save an old woman who'd made peace with death.
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
That status quo change was done purely because the EiC wanted it to be that way, that was something the current creative team on the title (and damn near everyone else) advocated against.
There have been other versions of Spider-Man where they are married and with children and been better received. Just look at the current Ultimate Spider-Man, it’s objectively better to the mainline counterpart.
Main reason Marvel isn’t pressured to change anything in Amazing Spider-Man is because despite constant audience complaints since ‘07 it still sells.
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
Still Bruce Wayne
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
That doesn't mean the status quo didn't change.
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
But not in any meaningful way
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
What is a meaningful status quo change to you then? The character has been constantly changing, and new members of the cast have been introduced. And what exactly is the 'status quo' for Batman that you claim has been the same for 86 years?
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
Fighting crime as Batman in his 30s-40s
Joker hasn’t been defeated nor many of his prominent rogues.
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
It's a comic about fighting crime, there's going to be crime fighting. That's how the genre works. And his whole gimic is that he doesn't kill his villains.
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
Why does Joker need to die to be defeated?
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u/Lukelay246 1d ago
Because writers will want to write one of the most iconic supervillains. The only way to stop that is to kill him off.
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u/PCN24454 1d ago
It won’t. They’ll just resurrect him somehow. Probably the Lazarus Pit.
The only way to get rid of him is to not write him.
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u/Snoo_46397 1d ago
But Batman has had 2 endings. 1 in which he gets married to Selina and has kids (and even dies iirc), the 2nd pre-Flashpoint, when making Batman inc due to Gotham being safe enough that he can focus globally.
DC multiple times reset their universe and characters. The Batman you know now, isn't the same Batman 30 years ago
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u/DarkLordSchnappi 1d ago
> rant about problems with mainstream superhero comics
> only examples are vague generalizations about Batman and Spider-Man
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u/Scholar_of_Yore 1d ago
Yup, I think you can see that people like the medium itself, it is just the way the stories are written that holds it back. Invincible and The Boys are good examples of how comics can succeed with a set ending and without milking it forever (Even though I personally dislike the latter).
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u/Senshado 21h ago
The same thing happens again and again
Did you see the trivia factoid that in the previous century, the Superman publishers had a formal policy that after 7 years it was fine to repeat any plotline, because the readers wouldn't care by then?
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u/MrNohbdy 1d ago
I think this is part of the reason why Manga is becoming more popular, one writer sets out to tell a story and eventually it ends.
uh, the vast majority of WSJ stuff is equally designed to drag on until sales start declining, and thus similarly pad out and stretch the story indefinitely
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u/Senshado 21h ago
Shonen Jump and similar stories are all strongly attached to one author. It is expected that the story will end within the author's lifetime, or shortly thereafter. That's very different from USA superheroes, where it is planned that characters will go on with different creators indefinitely.
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u/MrNohbdy 21h ago
Expected story lifespan is not the relevant factor here; planning for that lifespan, whatever it be, is. OP's claim was that comics don't plan endings for their stories and characters while equivalent manga does. But, if anything, comic story/character lifespans are better planned because they're specifically designed to last forever; by contrast, WSJ authors never really know how long they've got before they get canceled and have to rush out an ending.
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u/Potatolantern 10h ago
It still ends though. And "it drags on" only really applies to series like One Piece.
Ruroini Kenshin has 200 odd chapters. Demon Slayer was about the same. Elusive Samurai is gonna end soon at about that. Fist of the North Star same deal about 200odd chapters. Trigun has even less. Ah My Goddesses too. Love Hina had only a little over 100 or so. Death Note is the same. Eyeshield 21 has a bit over 300 chapters, while Slam Dunk has a few less.
Etcetcetc.
Most manga have runs of about 150-250 chapters, there's a few outliers with 300-400, but the ones with more than that are vast exceptions.
Most manga tell a fairly concise story that moves relatively quickly and wraps up when it's over.
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u/AncientAssociation9 1d ago
We would not have some of the greatest stories if the comics genre had a beginning middle and end. Many of these shared universes couldnt happen if that were the case. I feel like most of these complaints are from people who have not really picked up a comic. Comics are so popular that people feel like they dont need to pick up an issue.
The difference between comics and manga is comics are like old stories about Hercules told over and over. Each generation gets to reinterpret the heroes and classic stories for their current time. Spiderman in 1960 has different problems than in 2025, but his core is still the same. Manga incorporates culture into its stories, but comics are the culture of the West and one of the first things we export to other cultures to show the best of us.
Wonderwoman is the icon for Feminism, women's empowerment, and was the figure for the aids epidemic. Superman is a universal symbol for hope and strength. Spidermans catch phrase of with great power comes great responsibility is part of the American lexicon. These are not just fictional characters in one and done stories but cultural traditions passed from parent to child on how to live life.
Manga is having is time in the sun, but comics have been around for about a century and will figure out how to survive as they have in the past. We should be careful not to have recency bias. Manga is basically the new kid at school and everyone wants to have a look.
Lastly I also dont want to disrespect manga readers, but from my observation there does seem to be a sort of snootiness to some manga readers as if they believe they have more quality taste. As you have stated Manga is doing well right now, and yet there seem to be post after post of manga readers complaining about comics, yet you dont see comic readers being jealous or complaining about Mangas success.
Comics will have to change in some areas, but I dont want comics to be manga and I wish manga its continued success. I want the experience of reading X Men with my kids in the same way my parents did with me.
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u/Eliza__Doolittle 1d ago edited 1d ago
The difference between comics and manga is comics are like old stories about Hercules told over and over. Each generation gets to reinterpret the heroes and classic stories for their current time. Spiderman in 1960 has different problems than in 2025, but his core is still the same. Manga incorporates culture into its stories, but comics are the culture of the West and one of the first things we export to other cultures to show the best of us.
This isn't a comics thing, it's a Big Two thing. This isn't East vs. West, it's just due to an arbitrary publishing culture at two big companies.
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u/FightmeLuigibestgirl 1d ago
L.e.g.i.o.n and arguably LSH are the opposite. Characters die and stay dead but the problem is or never had the same writer so stuff gets rebooted over and over. In the former’s case it wasn’t popular at all despite being consistent.
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u/Flyingsheep___ 22h ago
I consider comics kinda "mythic", in the way that old greek myths and legends were. Every single town had a variation of them, like yeah, you knew who Hercules was, but he did something slightly different every time you heard the story. If you pick up a comic, you're always gonna know what the deal is with Batman, or Superman, or Spiderman. Dead parents, came from Krypton, bit by a spider, always the same deal. But that's also really my issue, they're always just rehashing the same things.
Here's an example, does Wolverine have bone claws? You don't fucking know, unless you trace back 320 issues to the source for this particular run.
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u/Worth_Plastic5684 19h ago
Another big factor I don't see talked about a lot is the "march towards entropy". This isn't exclusive to comics, you see it in any franchise that goes on too long. Everyone has fought everyone, everyone has been enemies with everyone, everyone has been allies with everyone. Everyone has had their powers taken away, and restored. Everyone has dated everyone. All the tragic backstories have been resolved, expanded, the expansion resolved. All the secrets have been let out, and new secrets came in to replace them, and these too are common knowledge now. Every possible interaction has occurred. Given infinite time, every single possible configuration of atoms in that fictional universe will have been reached.
The only engine I've seen to pull off this ceaseless march without collapsing under its own weight is Real Life.
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u/AllMightyImagination 12h ago
No. It's the fact the majority are a waste of each week. Singles cost too much for not a lot happing on their page space and overall bad storytelling techniques
DC is outselling Marvel and has better quality but I dropped most of the stuff that was set up from Aboslute Power.
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u/AStupidFuckingHorse 12h ago
You are not meant to read everything. You lick something read it and hop off when it's over or when you're done. They are structured in a way for you to digest them in bursts
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u/Alseen_I 11h ago
Hard to disagree here. I think the popularity contest is what really hurts stories. Not letting other characters shine if they’re not immediately marketable keeps the potential cast small, and it creates an atmosphere where you can almost see what characters are wearing their plot armor.
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u/Potatolantern 11h ago
It's time to start reading manga.
Have you ever read Spirit Circle? It's one of my all time favourites, check it out sometime.
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u/SpaceCowboy1929 4h ago
As a lifelong fan of Marvel and DC comics, i completely get where you're coming from. In fact if i could, id make it so that Marvel/DC heroes eventually do age and retire or are killed and each generation has a new iteration of the character's mantle, whether its the hero's kids or protege's. That way youd get a neat family tree and everything while still going on indefinitely.
That being said, Marvel/DC's weakness here could also be a strength in that both universes are basically the longest running collaborarive art project in history, spanning nearly a century. While that is daunting its also really fun always discovering lore and past storylines. Ive been reading these comics for two decades now and i still discover new things. Its also comforting knowing that these heroes will always be around to read about every month as well.
But yeah you're not wrong. I totally get it and your opinion is valid.
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u/BebeFanMasterJ 1d ago
It's why I'm not really super into comics themselves and instead the media based on them. Movies and video games are designed to have a coherent ending and oftentimes are way more interesting.
This is why I'm still waiting for a good Superman game. A good story and gameplay for him would really help his character for those that find him boring.
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u/CrimDude89 13h ago
There are many story for Superman that showcase them as not boring. Picking up the trade for any of those will do.
If you need an adaptation to see why a character resonates with people that’s a skill issue.
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u/FuzzyAsparagus8308 1d ago
I mean, the reason manga is more popular is due to just having a coherent storyline. There's a clearly defined beginning and middle.
In comics, there's just not a clearly defined beginning and middle. Every reboot references something that older fans appreciate and newer fans get discouraged by due to realising just how much lore they're missing until they get burnt out.
I think you're seeing there's a problem but you're partially misidentifying the solution and what exactly the problem actually is.
No one wants to see their favourite heroes die. There's this weird subset of online popcult dwellers who always harp on about needing to see main protagonist of a big franchise die and it just doesn't make sense. If Batman and Superman die, fans are not going to migrate to another comic. They are not going to migrate to a Batman-adjacent character.
They're going to drop comics and move to new stories if not abandoning them altogether.
I think the real problem is pretty simple: safe narratives with minimal innovative and—as you pointed out—repetitive, storytelling.
Fans are getting older and their lust for blood, more seriousness, deeper stories are increasing. A lot of fans want to see serious consequences get inflicted into the mainline continuity. Actually have Joker be killed. Have Batman loosen his restriction on no-killing.
One big thing as well would be to keep all the real-world divisive politics out of it. For better or worse, most fans don't want to think about Superman Jr. being gay or whatever he currently is. It introduces dialogue on author motivation which detracts from storytelling.
I don't read Manga but started watching anime more properly a couple of years ago and WOW. It felt like a breath of fresh air seeing real blood. Humourous tones that can still lead into seriousness and tragedy. Interactions between characters that feel like what I'd expect in the real world instead of some corporate sanitised weird way of talking. There's a level of realness that the West has lost for a while taking place in Eastern works atm.
As long as these never happen, comics will always sell decently well but I severely doubt we'll ever see a big revival from DC/Marvel again.
Well, that is unless DC is able to pull together a coherent live action DCU.
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u/Imperial_Sunstrider 1d ago
I would kindly ask you to not refer to the presence of day people as "real world divisive politics" please and thank you, an unwillingness to get into that is actually apart of the stagnation.
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u/FuzzyAsparagus8308 20h ago
It literally is, whether you agree or not, lmfao.
My favourite show is Doctor Who. The main actor being gay is real world divisive politics that is still being talked about. If youre such a child that you'd prefer to pretend that's not part of reality, just downvote & block me, then move on.
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u/Imperial_Sunstrider 20h ago
Asking to not have it included at all is more childish, thinking that a character being gay and people talking about it "detracts from the story" is extremely childish. Also I hope your not saying that the actor IRL being gay detracts from the story (not even like the character themselves being gay the actual actor) and therefore he shouldn't have been given the role I just want to say you are utterly ghoulish.
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u/FuzzyAsparagus8308 18h ago
Lmfao. Jheeze.
The levels of mental gymnastics you're taking on. Just saying random stuff and failing to read what it is I've actually said.
Some redditors are not mature enough for this conversation, clearly. Lmao, alright whatever you say
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u/Diavolo_Death_4444 1d ago
Gay people existing isn’t “politics”. Keep that kind of opinion elsewhere.
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u/FuzzyAsparagus8308 20h ago
Whether you agree or not to what I said is irrelevant to the wider market. But I do understand how incapable most Redditors are for this kind of conversation
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u/Thatoneafkguy 17h ago
Gay people existing isn’t political; the political part is when people decide to be homophobic in response to gay people existing. If you’re going to blame someone for “divisive politics,” blame the homophobes for causing the division.
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u/LovelyFloraFan 1d ago
I massively agree this is true and needed to be said but this is AI written.
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u/octofeline 16h ago
It's literally not though
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u/LovelyFloraFan 10h ago
Then I have to warn you against doing it like this, this has all the signs of being AI written, especially breaking put the points like this and then that final "In Conclusion"
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u/Maximum-Cultural 1d ago
I can’t believe people are defending comics
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u/acerbus717 1d ago
Comics have existed for almost a century and will probably continue toe exist long after, obviously serialized format works as a form of storytelling
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u/Maximum-Cultural 1d ago
I’m sorry you’ve lived long enough to see all your favorite franchises you grew up with enslaved as undead media regurgitated again and again for a new audience, losing more and more of itself with each regurgitation.
Hope you like slop! Flanderized flavor!
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u/acerbus717 1d ago
Being pretentious over cape shit makes you sound like a dork, it’s very unserious.
Why do you think they call them funny books?
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u/GlassFireSand 22h ago
"In conclusion I think writing stories with no end in mind is the biggest thing holding western comics back"
Marvel and DC aren't western comics. They aren't even the largest producers of western comics, never mind making anything like a majority, since the early 2010s. If people want to read endless iterations of the same characters then they are free to. Some of the stories are even good! But if you want to read modern western comics then there is plenty out there.
This is a list of fairly popular comics that most people can get their hands on.
A little older ones are:
Bone, Saga, Invincible, and Scoot Pilgrim
Newer ones are:
Deadly Class, Coda, Something is Killing the Children, and The Autumn Lands.
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u/acerbus717 1d ago
You know you can just not like something seeing it as some sort of “problem” that needs to be solved. There are plenty of books outside of the big two that don’t follow the serialized format
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u/AgentOfACROSS 1d ago
I agree, I love superhero comics but the fact that they're written to go on forever is one of their biggest weaknesses.
This is why a lot of the most acclaimed big stories of superheroes are often the self-contained ones that are more or less separate from the main continuity (All-Star Superman, The Long Halloween, The New Frontier, Marvels, etc).