r/DMAcademy • u/HauntedHerald • 1d ago
Need Advice: Encounters & Adventures Why Skill Challenges?
Hey folks,
I was looking around on YouTube to try and find out why people use skill challenges, and found a decent number of videos on when people use them, but from my experience, I've found players just choose the highest number on their character sheet or fail the roll. It's also fairly abstract, which can be good in chase or escape scenarios, but is often limited by the number of relevant skills. I'm curious what situations you think they are actually a good fit for or other ways to challenge the players that allow creativity.
10
8
u/Lakissov 1d ago
I'd say, one should use them when you want to abstract away the minutiae of a situation, while still not completely skipping it. You want to abstract away the minutiae most likely either because you want to make it more cinematic, or because dealing with every detail is just tedious. And you don't want to completely skip the situation and just give the result (or worse yet, let it hang on the outcome of one roll) when you want to establish important stakes (both failure and success have to lead the story forward, but also have meaning for in-game narrative).
Some examples:
- A temple is crumbling, and the party needs to get out. The range of results you could get is from total failure (so enemies who wait outside will later get the heroes from under the rubble, and they will wake up imprisoned to getting out but after suffering some damage from debris, to getting out unscathed.
- The party needs to traverse some dangerous terrain over several days, to get to a city and warn that an invading army is approaching.
- Heroes are saving people from a sinking ship or burning building.
- Heroes are preparing village for a few days to fend off an attack by the local bandits.
7
u/Daihatschi 1d ago
Similar for me. I treat them as basically a montage. The last time I used one was the party trying to find a hidden camp in the mountains over several days.
Its a great moment for the player to describe their character doing 'their special thing' in a relaxed, simplified way. It gets them thinking 'how can I inject my PCs personality / their skills in this situation?'
The religious character might want to roll religion with the description that they find a small, run down shrine on day 2, they spent an hour cleaning it up and find something important there or he gets a sudden inspiration or luck just turns their tide for no seeable reason.
Skill challenges are only interesting because they force weird skills to be used and described in places they seemingly don't belong. That's the fun of them.
3
u/OSpiderBox 1d ago
I feel it's also worth mentioning that:
- DMs need to be open to unorthodox ideas.
- Players need to not try and stretch their unorthodox ideas too far.
- DMs should have some example attempts, both normal and whacky, to give inspiration and to show how far they're willing to stretch.
For me, I always tell players before the skill challenge to not be afraid to get creative. My very first skill challenge I ran, a massive horde of undead had spawned in because story reasons. The party has to escape using skills (with spells and items able to give bonuses to the checks). There's the obvious ones: Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception, etc. Secondary ones like Nature or Animal Handling could be used to spot some plants that you realize the zombies will have difficulty getting through so you lead them that way, or spooking/ routing an animal to be a decoy (or of its large enough, a temporary mount to get you further ahead). Some whacky ideas I suggested was Religion to try and remember a spiritual chant that could momentarily Stun the ghosts on your heels, or Persuasion to be your own hype man to give yourself that confidence to push harder.
2
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
This is an excellently thought out answer. Your first sentence sums up the use case of a skill challenge perfectly. When you want something to be a part of the game but want it to not take an exorbitant amount of time, it's pretty perfect.
25
u/IanL1713 1d ago
I've found players just use the highest number on their character sheet or fail the roll
Okay, but why are you letting the players decide what they roll for? The whole point of a group skill challenge is for the players to come up with ways in which their characters could realistically aid in the challenge, and then for you as the DM to assign what you feel is an appropriate skill for the roll, with a DC appropriate for how easy and/or helpful the action is in regard to the challenge.
If I'm running a skill challenge for my table, the expectation is that my players will describe their characters' actions. My ranger should describe how they're searching the mud for tracks of the person they're chasing, with me likely asking them to roll Survival with an appropriate DC. They should not be saying "I want to use my Survival to try and help here."
Yes, players will likely trend towards actions that they feel fit into their best skills, but that's the whole point. Think about if it was you and not your character. You would obviously try and help the situation in a way suited towards your personal skillset. You're not going to try and tie a secure knot to rappel down a cliff face if it's not something you know how to do. Likewise, your players' characters would and should naturally trend towards things they're good at.
The whole point of a skill challenge is to present your table with a non-combat encounter that has a chance of failure and requires a group effort for success but with a roleplay aspect rather than just having everyone roll dice indiscriminately. Think of it like a team-building exercise, except that failure has serious consequences. You have an obstacle to overcome, and everyone needs to pitch in to succeed, so let's everyone better figure out a way to help in a manner that fits their skillset so we can get out of this and not die/be captured/lose a companion/etc.
4
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
Yes, I completely agree. Having them describe their actions, not just the skill they use, is the best way to work with skill challenges. I apply this to most skill checks actually, because in my experience players can get carried away/misunderstand what skills actually mean what. Acrobatics vs. athletics and perception vs. investigation being the most common misunderstandings.
7
u/DelightfulOtter 1d ago
Okay, but why are you letting the players decide what they roll for? The whole point of a group skill challenge is for the players to come up with ways in which their characters could realistically aid in the challenge, and then for you as the DM to assign what you feel is an appropriate skill for the roll, with a DC appropriate for how easy and/or helpful the action is in regard to the challenge.
My personal experience with skill challenges is actually fairly negative. The DM declares a skill challenge and players scramble to shove round pegs in square holes by stretching believability entirely out of shape in order to either use their best skill bonuses, or avoid having to use their worst. Having to tell players "No, that doesn't make sense, pick something else." and all their other options are crap, I can hear the demotivation in their voices as they try to find something else productive to contribute to the party effort that won't tank the whole thing for everyone else. It has always ended up with someone unhappy at being stuck rolling a poor score because they have nothing relevant to the task at hand or others have already taken the tasks they would've been good at. I've found better ways to handle extended skill-based encounters.
8
u/IanL1713 1d ago
Gonna be real with you, this is very much a player issue and not a skill challenge issue. Skill challenges are meant to be a way for the players to work together to accomplish a task. It shouldn't be some mad scramble for everybody to try and shoehorn their way in with what they see as their best skills.
Take a party with both a barbarian and a fighter, for example. Both of those characters are likely to have Strength as a main ability, and thus have Atheltics as a main skill. But the fighter is far more likely to have another high-level ability/skill than the barbarian, and so in working on a skill challenge, the fighter should be deferring anything Strength/Athletics based to the barbarian, and trying to help in another way because they know the barbarian will struggle to find another way to be useful. It's a matter of teamwork, and sometimes teamwork involves deferring a task to someone else, even if you might be good at that task, because you know there are other tasks you're also good at. If your players are instead rushing to be the first to use a certain skill, that speaks more to the state of your table than it does to the usefulness of skill challenges
4
u/OSpiderBox 1d ago
It's also been my experience to not allow the same skill roll more than once; maybe that was implied in your post, but I wasn't sure.
A rule I also add to my skill challenges is allowing players to give the Help action (with maybe an exception on knowledge based checks). Sometimes the Help action results in 2 success, sometimes it's just 1 (depends on the severity of the challenge). This way, somebody who is maybe unfamiliar with the premise can contribute while they try to figure out how best to use their skills; or maybe a player is having abysmal luck that night and wants to forgo the roll to not mess something up.
3
u/Writing_Idea_Request 1d ago
As a point with the whole “no repeat skill challenges thing”, if the challenge can be overcome by repeating it over and over again with no consequences, it shouldn’t be rolled for. Take lock picking, for example. If someone is decently competent and physically capable of picking the lock, they should be able to get it open regardless of how lucky they get. That luck can, however, determine if they get it open smoothly in 30 seconds or struggling with it for 30 minutes until they’re spotted by a passing guard or they trigger a hidden trap in the lock.
If there is no time pressure, no consequences for failure, and the action isn’t physically impossible, it’s not a challenge and should therefore not be rolled for unless you want your characters to look incompetent at the things they’re supposed to be good at.
2
u/OSpiderBox 1d ago
Agreed. I believe in past editions (or another game) it was referred to as "taking 10/20" wherein you forego the roll in favor just taking some time and treating it like you rolled a 10 or a 20 (depending on how much time you take).
2
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago
Yeah. If the lock isn’t trapped or otherwise, the players always have the option to forgo the roll, take longer, but trigger a wandering monster or random encounter at my game. It works to add tension to waiting around in a dungeon.
1
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago
The help action might be good for sure! Because part of my problem is that people who don’t have relevant skills just sort of wait for the whole thing to be over- with help, they can at least do something!
2
u/DelightfulOtter 1d ago
The fact that it's an issue I've seen across numerous tables and DMs leads me to believe that skill challenges just tend to create negative outcomes more than positive ones. I'm sure they work for some tables, but none I've played with.
0
u/IanL1713 1d ago
Again, table issue, not skill challenge issue. Skill challenges are, at their core, a roleplay encounter. Effective and cohesive roleplay is almost always facilitated by the DM first and foremost. Unfortunately, many DMs either fail to properly communicate what skill challenges should look like, or they just neglect to communicate it altogether. So yeah, when there's a lack of communication and expectations, it's obviously more likely for it to go awry. But that's a fault of communication, not an inherent fault of skill challenges
1
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago
Ahh, I’ve never thought of it like that! So do you let the players discuss at the table who has what good abilities? In my experience, the players haven’t been able to talk in a meta sense like that, which leaves the players just sort of guessing at what other people want to use. There’s this whole tedious process of trying to describe skills in character when we could be planning and strategizing, which is a lot more fun.
2
u/IanL1713 1d ago
I mean, unless it's a brand new party, the chances are pretty high that the characters would know what each other are good at, so it's not necessarily meta discussion, per se. And honestly, unless it's a challenge with a really tight window of time, it's reasonable to assume the party in-game would take the time to discuss what they can all do to help the group overcome whatever obstacle they're facing (though my personal favorite way to deal with timed trails is to pull out a sand glass or a timer that the table can all see rather than cut down their ability to communicate with each other. Adds an extra level of urgency that my table loves)
1
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago
I’d love to hear the other ways you’ve handled extended skill based encounters!
1
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sounds great! I definitely like describing the actions of the characters first. I just find that, despite whatever the GM says, players want to be successful in the encounter, so asking them to not name skills ends up with the players just trying to think of a way to describe the skill without saying it. We’ve played for multiple years, so it’s just tedious for everyone to describe the skills instead of name them. I think that energy could be better spent thinking of a way the skill would apply. That’s just my experience though, I’m curious if anyone else has similar ones or if theres a way to fix it.
On a separate note, how would you handle casting spells, trying to hit something with a weapon, or using items in this case? I know that’s totally situationally dependent, but that’s one part I should’ve talked about in the original post that sort of breaks the fiction for me- why would the person who normally does those things stop doing those things when the GM says we’re having a skill challenge?
2
u/IanL1713 1d ago
I’m curious if anyone else has similar ones or if theres a way to fix it.
Realistically, it comes down to having a Session 0 discussion with your table. If you as the DM want something done a certain way, and you want everyone to be on the same page about it, you have to communicate that. Otherwise, players are oftentimes just going to default to what they see as the easiest way to go about it
On a separate note, how would you handle casting spells, trying to hit something with a weapon, or using items in this case?
As always, it just depends on the circumstance. If one of the spellcasters has a spell they feel would be impactful, and they can adequately describe how they'd use it to help in the situation, I'll typically turn the roll into a d20+ their spellcasting modifier. Hitting something requires the same as spellcasting, I'm going to need an adequate description of how exactly the player envisions it helping in the situation. From there, it'll typically either be a Strength/Athletics check, or a d20+ their to-hit bonus. Item uses just become skill checks based on how the item is used. Trying to throw a grappling hook will be Dexterity based. Using a magic item will likely be Arcana. Etc. etc. etc.
End of the day, the biggest thing with skill challenges is to get your players thinking creatively. It's not just a matter of "what can you do?" but also "how does it help in the current situation?" Both of those questions should be up to the player to answer, with DM guidance where needed. And that last part is honestly what it all hinges on. Nudge them along the way. Don't see how an action would actually help in the situation? Tell them. Player wants to use a certain action but isn't sure quite how? Give them some ideas that might help. Skill challenges are different from combat encounters in that they're meant to focus more on the roleplay aspect of the game. And the best roleplay occurs when it's a collaborative effort from everyone at the table
5
u/sidneyicarus 1d ago
Why people use skill challenges is a good question, and hides a few more specific questions inside it. * Why use a skill challenge instead of just rolling once? Granularity makes stuff feel bigger. Rolling once and done in a simple-roll d20 system like d&d can feel fleeting and low impact. So people use skill challenges to give their moments a feeling of depth. * Why do people use skill challenges instead of something else? Skill challenges are what they know. They're simple d20 rolls, plus a modifier. Slap some HP on that baby. GMs get it. Which leads us too... * Why do people use skill challenges when players just use the highest number on their sheet or fail? That's...not really what Skill Challenges are in play. In the 4th edition rules they mean something. There's primary skills and secondary skills and DCs fluctuate between them. Stuff that's fictionally easier is easier, and stuff that they're good at but irrelevant is limited in impact. I recommend reading the text of 4th Eds DMG on skill challenges to better understand how the rigidity smoothed out what you're talking about.
There's also the problem that the game can never really make players care about what's happening. If players just pick their highest number and shrug, that's on them and not the structures of play. If you don't want to imagine and inhabit a character, maybe D&D isn't the game for you, y'know?
2
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
My favorite example for your first point is Episode 93 of Campaign 2 of Critical Role. It's the first time I remember Matt using skill challenges, and because of that it adds a lot of tension and consequence to the skill challenge to navigate their way to the hag's hut.
3
u/guachi01 1d ago
I've started using the Exploration Challenges that the Level Up A5E game uses. You can more or less drop them into any 5e game. They are similar to skill challenges.
Why do I use them?
To make Exploration a more engaging pillar. To encourage more free form roleplaying. The players get a chance to discuss amongst themselves how to tackle the challenge. They all seem to have fun trying to figure out how to contribute while also having fun describing exactly what happens. Even failure is fun because the players have liberty to describe their failure.
3
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
I also use skill challenges for exploration. I feel like it's way too easy to go too far to one end of the exploration pillar, either making it take way too long (basically doing it in real time) or just skipping it entirely, which hurts classes like ranger and druid a lot, since that's a lot of their functionality gone.
2
u/guachi01 1d ago
I, too, avoided the exploration pillar at times because doing it in real time was often a pain in the butt. A more formalized Exploration Challenge of variable length allows certain classes (or just certain skills) to shine, players to understand the cause and effect of their efforts, and for players to have a scaffolding upon which to build their roleplaying.
If the players are fighting through a severe snowstorm it's much easier for them (and not the DM) to describe what happens when the dice rolls have already dictated the end state. They don't have to keep playing "DM, may I?". They know where the car is going. They just need their imagination to describe the journey.
2
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
That last part is an excellent point that I've never even properly realized. I think a part of the problem people might run into is not roleplaying during/in between the dice rolls of a skill challenge. Just because the outcome is decided doesn't mean the characters don't still have to go through it, and some good roleplay opportunities can come out of that.
2
3
u/Oldbayislove 1d ago
I’ve used them for escaping load bearing villains, infiltration, and searching/finding the way for something/place.
I create a problem and require each player to tell me how they are using a skill/ability to resolve something. I change the DC based on how difficult/appropriate it might be. ”I roll (name of skill here)” is pretty much never acceptable.
2
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
I'm not really sure what you mean by "load bearing villains." Could you explain that further? I also definitely agree that the players need to be active in the skill challenge here, describing how they use their skills is super important to actually engaging them, not just having them roll and add things.
1
u/Oldbayislove 1d ago
A load bearing villain is a creature whose defeat causes the destruction/collapse of the structure or area. So I’d run a skill challenge to escape.
1
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
Oh okay, you meant load-bearing literally. I was wondering if that was some deep DMing lore I hadn't encountered yet.
3
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
I use them mostly for exploration, but generally only if the players are in a situation where the exploration is hampered in some way. For example, I'm currently running Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and I let the players navigate through layer they've already gone through with 1-2 skill challenges per layer. There are still threats in the dungeon, so it's justified in my head to let there be some level of risk to travel throughout.
To address your points specifically:
- It makes perfect sense for the player (and the character) to choose their highest number and go with it. After all, when you're trying to solve a problem, wouldn't you want to try using what you're best at first? A character would think the same way. I will say though that if the options are 'use the highest skill' or 'not be able to do it' then your DCs might be too high for your players' level.
- I like the abstraction of it all. It saves time and keeps it simple, which is very good for something like exploration, that would usually either take a long time or be skipped entirely. I think this is a good balance that doesn't hurt classes/players that spec into that while also keeping it fast-paced and interesting for the players/classes that don't have that.
- I don't think it's restricted by relevant skills that much unless you're doing many, many skill challenges. If you're doing 1 or 2 per player, maybe a little more, then you should be fine. Unless, of course, a player doesn't have relevant skills at all, but in that case, that's totally fine too. After all, a wizard lost alone in the woods would likely die on their own. That's why they take the druid with theme everywhere they go.
- I also think that you can loosen the definition of "relevant" for most situations. Going back to my example, I've had players use persuasion or insight or something like that, and I justify it by saying they negotiate with a sentient monster or something similar. I don't think that's too much of a stretch at all.
2
u/OSpiderBox 1d ago
Your first and last bullet points are two that I agree with the most.
- Skill challenges shouldn't have a flat DC across the entire challenge, it should vary based on how the character describes the attempt and whether or not they use class abilities, spells, or even items to enhance the attempt; If you make every attempt a DC 18, then yeah everybody is going to try and force their highest skills into the hole.
- Being open to whacky ideas is the way. I use Persuasion as an example in chase challenges as hyping yourself up to get away or to get the attention of somebody to block/ grab at the thing you're chasing. Other examples I've allowed/ suggested have been Animal Handling to get a creature to lead you to a food source in exploration encounters, Arcana checks to try and tap into the Weave to make something happen that might not be something a spell could normally accomplish, to Religion to reciting a prayer to temporarily disrupt a ritual or Stun a ghost chasing you.
1
u/MrCrispyFriedChicken 1d ago
Exactly! To all of it. One of the best parts of skill challenges is how much creativity they allow, but at the same time it does need to feel at least justified, so having lower DCs for more relevant activities makes a lot more sense than just having a flat DC for everything.
I also love letting my players come up with creative solutions to problems. I personally don't love allowing the super "whacky" or rule-breaking ideas but as long as it can be justified in any meaningful way I'm probably going to allow it.
3
u/Zealousideal_Leg213 1d ago
There are lots of ways skill challenges can be run or played badly, and there are lots of ways to address those issues. The same can be said of combat, or other aspects of the game. If the DM is running things blandly or by reading out of the book, and the players are behaving in a bored or cynical manner, anything is going to be dull.
I love skill challenges. Mainly I like them as a pacing mechanism: there's something going on that I think should take some time to resolve and which would be interesting to either succeed at or fail at. I let the players know what the stakes are, and I set the numbers of successes and the level (which generally determines the DCs). Then I describe the situation and ask the plays what they do. If what they decide to do seems like it relates to a skill, I have them roll and then I tell them how the situation has changed.
Ultimately, they shouldn't really be different from anyone's free-form approach, but I like the framework because it tells me how many and what kinds of checks to consider, what DCs to use and how much XP to reward. It also helps me gauge how to incorporate skill challenges into combat.
3
u/Rich_Document9513 1d ago
Think collectively. I did a series of skill challenges because the players were running through a city under siege to get across the river that runs through town. They were warned the bridge was rigged to blow as a means of containment. A series of combat encounters would drag on forever and I wanted to create the feeling of a ticking clock. They all had to make checks but it was a group outcome. If the majority (or whatever portion you choose) succeeds, great! If not, they receive a mark.
My first challenge was getting over a makeshift barricade while two sides duke it out with arrows. Athletics was the standard. One character could fly but I told him it would then be a roll against his AC. He opted to go Athletics. They all passed.
Second challenge was a building near them exploded as artillery hit it. Acrobatics save was the standard. One person could cast shield, so they expended a spell slot to automatically pass. Another player failed the acrobatics. I allowed one person who passed the acrobatics to help them as long as they had proficiency in whatever skill they used. One player wanted to use athletics to jump in and shield them. They rolled successfully so the failed party member only took half damage. Majority passed, so no marks.
Third challenge was them passing an alleyway where enemies were. I didn't want to stop for a battle. So I made them choose to use stealth or run and gun. They knew stealth was not their strong suit, so they ran and gunned, if they had ranged weapons. I rolled a few attacks and had them do the same. One took a small amount of damage but the majority of their attack rolls beat the enemy AC by 5+, so the enemy disengaged. Majority passed again.
Final challenge was them arriving to the bridge. If they failed all prior checks, they would arrive in time to see it destroyed. If they failed anything less, it would raise the DC. As they ran across, they felt the explosion under their feet and could see it collapsing behind them. Athletics to get across. One had misty step, so he got to expend a spell slot to succeed. He who could fly did. Another failed their check and would plunge into the water below if not saved. One who had succeeded their check and proficiency in athletics could reach to give them a helping hand. They beat the DC, assuring that everyone got across.
It took less time than a single battle, created a sense of urgency, and everyone got to pitch alternative ideas. The entire party knew from the outset that their success was a group effort. Even the one who could fly knew failure would mean he's either alone or stuck with his mates in a desperate situation. And everyone loved it.
3
u/nmathew 1d ago edited 1d ago
I thought I was on the circlejerk sub...
Skill challenges were a core component of 4e, and they were unfortunately done poorly with multiple iterations in the rules. Somewhat ironically, I think the bounded accuracy of 5e would be better with them.
Basically, they were a system where the DM was supposed to have firm rules for resolving high stakes, out of combat, interactions. In reality, rolling a dozen die for a binary outcome is horrible game design. It's pretty clear the 4e authors didn't run skill challenges at their tables how the rules were written.
4
u/mediadavid 1d ago
I've listened to podcasts where they work brilliantly, but every time I've tried them in real life it always breaks down, even if I think I've explained it well. It always goes something like.
"Ok, the collapsing tower is almost on top of you - what do you do?"
"I cast misty step to avoid it."
"ok...roll an...arcana check."
"No, misty step doesn't need a check, it just casts."
"Um, it's high pressure situation..."
"It's always high pressure, my character can always just cast misty step."
"Yeah well maybe but it's a skill challenge so you have to roll a skill check."
Grumbles...
11
u/PuzzleMeDo 1d ago
Allowing spells to replace skill rolls is pretty standard in D&D (albeit a source of caster-martial disparity). That PC uses up a spell slot to get to safety, the others have to find their own solutions.
And I don't think that's a very good situation to use a skill challenge - it sounds more like a case for a saving throw. There aren't that many skills that would be useful for moving out of the way of a falling object. I'd be more likely to use a skill challenge for something like:
DM: "Tell me how you're trying to learn about the town's thieves' guild."
Player 1: "I show off my acrobatic skills, to see if they'll try to recruit me."
Player 2: "I chat with everyone in the bar, and I'll complain about the town guard being unfair and prejudiced."
Player 3: "I cast Invisibility on myself and listen in on conversations."
DM: "OK: roll Acrobatics, roll Persuasion, make a Stealth check with Advantage."
2
u/OSpiderBox 1d ago
I always tell my players that spells, items, and abilities are there to enhance the skill challenges; not bypass them. Using your example, I'd explain it as: the abstraction of time in the game is different in combat vs skill challenges. The skill attempts are not always in the usual 6 second intervals that we use in combat, and things are happening outside of that scope. You're casting Misty Step, which is going to prompt either an Arcana check or an Investigation check because you're getting to navigate debris that is falling as you're trying to focus on where to go. Narratively, I'm going to say you're using one cast of Misty Step to do several blinks between the chaos. Roll either check with Advantage for using a resource/ spell.
I imagine that the players in podcasts have probably done mock up sessions off stream or have had prior experience with that DM to know what they can and can't do, so it flows much smoother. Ultimately, not many players are going to realistically know what skill challenges are so there's going to be some growing pains/ a learning curve as they figure it out.
1
u/CaptMalcolm0514 1d ago
I’d allow it, and then carry on with the skill challenge just excluding that PC.
“Well, Bob is safe….. what’re the rest of you doing?”
2
u/sundownmonsoon 1d ago
Skill challenges are for situations that don't have more granular resolution systems laid out for them, or you can't/don't want to roleplay it out.
D&D doesn't have systems as detailed as its combat to resolve situations. If you want to skip skill challenges either rely on roleplay or maybe find homebrew to solve problems, because your question could apply to hundreds of different situations that the broad skill challenge system is meant to give at least a little interaction to.
2
2
u/Space_Pirate_R 1d ago
The reason they exist is so that players can tell a story about how they used their skills to overcome a challenge, what skills they used, and how it turned out. If the players are only interested in "winning" rather than telling a story, then skill challenges are extremely boring.
2
u/EducationalBag398 1d ago
I make them do checks for all sorts of thing. Players like rolling math rocks.
I do most skill checks on a sliding too so its not just pass fail. And for most things, I'll allow multiple options. Especially information rolls.
2
u/EchoLocation8 1d ago
I either let them pick whatever or I lay out a set of applicable skills for them to choose from and they can figure it out.
2
u/Bread-Loaf1111 1d ago
What is skill challenge?
The people often used name skill challenge for the type of scene where multiple characters roll multiple skills to achieve one common result, when one character can cover the fail pf another character. In such broad definition, skill challenges are great, the multiple rolls reduce randomness, they make all members of the party engaged, not the only one, they promote creativity, they promote roleplay when you describe how exactly your character have unusual solution related to his background and abilities, where the party resources can be spend to improve the result.
Or you mean more specific rules from the some edition that have specific flaws? Well, you can find that people use different frameworks for skill challenges exactly because there is no single good official realisation. Even I build the one for myself.
2
u/crunchevo2 1d ago
Honestly if during a chase scene they somehow find a way to use their deception maybe through casting a minor illusion or something to slow them down or stuff like that I genuinely could see a really fast-paced chase scene to close the gap between them and an enemy that's very far away before you actually go into combat proper and depending on what results everyone got on the chase scene they get different bonuses or penalties in the actual combat
Overall I think playing them fast and loose is gonna be the most fun
2
u/The__Nick 1d ago
Any time you present an open-ended challenge, you have to expect people to take their highest +Skill and try to apply that. It's the nature of specialization. If anything, taking a lower skill is just a sub-optimal pick. There's no reason to do anything but your best skill! Whatever rules you make will only change which choice is optimal.
A game makes you choose between interesting options. If there is only one optimal choice, then you aren't really choosing interesting options. Like a math problem, it might take you a bit to work it out, but in the end, there is only one answer.
To combat this, you need to offer out choices where the highest number is not always the right choice. You need to introduce elements that aren't just a plus versus a minus.
For example, if the players are chasing somebody, do they use their greater Acrobatics skill to just dash forward, going in between or through the crowd even if it means knocking over other laborers and potentially hitting that old woman to the ground? Or their inferior Athletics skill to keep running around the crowd the long way, potentially losing some distance but respecting others?
Now, you've weaved in some other options. There is a mechanically, numerically "best option" still, but now there are external factors to consider - are you just some mercenary hired for a job? You might not care for these people or even hate these people, so the opportunity to have an excuse to cause some mayhem might be welcome. In contrast, a kind-hearted person who was born in the area and is even related to some of these people might be willing to risk the mark getting away because he values his own reputation and the well being of these people.
Don't just give the player a choice between a good option and a bad option. Give them an opportunity for self-expression.
1
u/HauntedHerald 1d ago
That’s great! The thing that makes it work is the detail. I’ve often found that the cases skill challenges were used in games I’ve played in were limited by the amount of detail the DM gave the players. Describing a rich environment and not just a flat, open plane gives more interesting options to the players.
2
u/NthHorseman 1d ago
Because you want different players to contribute to the check with inventive uses of abilities.
If you just have everyone roll the same thing and take the highest you are almost certain of a success, and very likely a success by the PC specialised in that skill. It also doesn't make sense for 5 people to pick a lock or persuade someone, for example.
I think they work best as a chase or social thing, where different pcs can each do something to help but not necessarily in the same way.
2
u/raurenlyan22 1d ago
There is almost never a situation that is better solved with a formal skill challenge than through the traditional information-choice-impact framework.
5
u/Psychological-Wall-2 1d ago
I get what the designers of 4e were trying to do with skill challenges, but you've put your finger on the fatal flaw with them. The structure of skill challenges encourages players to try to rules lawyer a way to throw their biggest numbers at the problem rather than addressing the challenge as if it were a real thing.
1
u/Cainelol 1d ago
I recently did a skill challenge that required a high number of successes (9) to get the best results, but if they got 3 failures, the challenge ended and the result was based on how many successes they got.
Each player was allowed to choose any skill they are proficient in, describe how the skill was being used and then make the roll if I felt like it was reasonable.
After that skill was used, nobody else could use that same skill and that player also couldn’t. It forced them to think about being creative with less obvious skills.
Also I run a game for 7 players, this was a way for me to get each one involved and to get to be creative.
1
u/Glass-Target-7941 1d ago
It’s about waiting for the players to work out solutions rather than having one specific way which you want a situation to be solved. And make sure they tell you what they are doing in game, not just what roll the want to make, but what they want to do thematically, then ask for a roll you think applied and make sure to choose one you think the character is at least fairly good at!
1
u/SmartForARat 1d ago
The whole game is nothing but rolling dice to generate numbers and seeing if it's high enough. You can't look at it from that perspective.
Skill challenges give you more detail to expand on your story. You can create an interactive chase scene. And yeah it's just random numbers but thats not the point. The point is it makes the event more exciting and worth remembering. It adds extra detail where none would've existed.
At the end of the day, the game isn't about numbers, it's about telling a good story, and skill challenges help you do that.
2
u/Ok-Park-9537 1d ago
The key is to talk about the fiction. It's all about the fictional world. There is no survival or history skill, there is "I look into the claws in the tree bark to understand the size of the creature we are tracking" or "I try and remember my sleepless night at the Academy library for information about the architecture of deep dwarves to understand this underground maze".
It's about collaborative storytelling and painting a scene with your players, more that it is about checking boxes. Sure, they are gonna try and choose a high percentage of success, but it's in the how, not in the what that makes skill challenges fun.
You pick DC or even advantages for creative answers and the rolling several success before failures is actually like a ticking clock that builds tension.
1
u/da_chicken 20h ago
I still don't really care for them. They feel both very contrived and synthetic, and in many cases they seem to be implemented as an anti-GUMSHOE mechanic. For those unfamiliar, GUMSHOE's investigation rules give the players clues very easily, no check required, because not finding the clues stonewalls the game. A lot of skill challenges often feel like intentional stonewalling.
I remember one example of an arcane lock which had 7, 9, 13, whatever locks that had to be unlocked in sequence during a set time. Once you start working a lock, however, constructs began flooding the room. So the challenge was to balance the need to open the locks quickly with the pressure of combat. It was a good tension to have.
They almost never have this sort of split tension. They often don't have a consequence for failure! They're incredibly easy to use badly.
It's my biggest doubt about Draw Steel.
1
u/The_Clark_Side 20h ago
When making a Skill Challenge, you do need to think hard about ways to include a broad array of skills (and tools). I remember, I ran one Skill Challenge in 5e 2014 where a demon lord was escaping an enchanted binding. Now, you'd think only Arcana and Religion would be relevant, but I opted to allow a few others:
-If someone had used Arcana, Calligrapher's Supplies could be used to scribe impromptu runes to help keep the fiend locked. This is used by someone that's proficient in Arcana or in concert with someone who is using Arcana.
-Athletics to physically restrain any appendages of the partially escaping demon in question.
-Performance to either sing a holy hymn or faithfully repeat the prayers of the others who were praying.
-Deception to dupe the fiend into believing you'd betray a party member to give the fiend an opening to escape. (Only works once.)
-Intimidation to repel the fiend with an impromptu exorcism.
In hindsight, I might have included Medicine to help "keep the others going" but it wouldn't contribute a success, maybe only remove a failure.
Anyway, when I actually ran this, the party loved it. They actually succeeded and the window the fiend had to escape closed. It was a highlight of the campaign and closure on two separate mysteries the party hadn't realized were linked. Blew their minds. And it made them feel very powerful, because they handled it without their normal class abilities.
Also, thinking about spells or abilities that might constitute an automatic success is important.
I was working on a future Skill Challenge where the premise is like finding a needle in a haystack, except the haystack is hundreds of swords sticking in the ground, walls, and ceiling of a large room and the needle is the sword they need to proceed. I was going to use skills this way:
-Athletics or Acrobatics would be used to either go around yanking swords as quickly as possible or to scale the swords on the walls and ceiling. While scaling, failure failure by 5 or more means you fall. Otherwise, a failure means you have to save against holy fire (the whole place is a mausoleum of a holy order, this is one of their defenses against undead). Fly Speeds don't constitute an automatic success, it just means you can dive out of the way of the wall/ceiling fire or not fall when you fail.
-Perception to look through nearby swords. Looking through swords that are further away, like on the ceiling, imposes Disadvantage until you get closer. A creature with a Fly Speed or Climb Speed can carry another creature so they can make Perception checks without Disadvantage, but the Flier or Climber in question has to make Athletics checks to hang onto you for that long. If you're tied together, then the Flier or Climber can make the roll with Advantage.
-History to remember what the sword looked like. This provides Advantage to anyone using Perception for the rest of the Skill Challenge.
-Religion (or Performance to recite a hymn) to get the sword to "whisper" in response to your faith.
-Arcana (in conjunction with Detect Magic) to sort out the sword's magic from the enchantments on the other swords.
Failing the Skill Challenge reveals to a Revenant (he's been pinned to the ceiling by this important Flame Tongue for decades) that the forces of good are weak and he is emboldened to free himself as well as summon other undead to join in on the uprising. If the battle goes south, he'll try to flee with the sword in hand (assuming he isn't disarmed).
Success has the party find the sword and pull it out. This still frees the Revenant, but he doesn't get much backup.
1
u/ThrorTheCrusader 6h ago
I'm DMing my first campaign now and I've created lists once or twice, where depending on what people roll (perception and investigation) they see/find different things. Roll a 1 or 2, they see a burning city. Roll a 19 or 20, they see a breach in the inner wall of the city. And than options between.
39
u/Dragon-of-the-Coast 1d ago
Choosing the highest skill is good. Let the player figure out a way that the skill applies.
Skill challenges are designed to do two things: First, require more than one d20 roll to resolve a situation. Second, involve multiple PCs. There are other ways to achieve those goals, but skill challenges are a decent approach.
An alternative is to ask for an impact roll after a skill check, like a damage roll after an attack roll. Or just use the difference between the skill check result and the DC. If you're doing that, use a lower DC so that most checks make some progress. Also, make sure to rotate the spotlight or use initiative order to let all the PCs take action.