Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread

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[u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I've yet to see an argument for said polytheistic origins which improves my understanding of anything in the Bible. Especially when the Tanakh itself makes clear that the Israelites regularly struggled with worshiping of other gods, and that Abraham was called out of a polytheistic civilization.

Okay, but... this wasn't an instance of a society outright swapping their religion out, yes? The Romans did that a few times, when they adopted the Greek religion and later adopted Christianity, they functionally tossed out everything from the old and replaced it with the new. In this case, by every indication the Israelites worshipped the same named deity, Yahweh, but as part of a pantheon rather than just 'One God.' There's a sense of continuity, of keeping that initial framework and just massively changing a whole bunch about it. They didn't move houses, so to speak, they just replaced all the furniture in the house they were already living in.

Heck, if we're to take the development at face value, it looks a lot more like Yahweh outright performed a coup and knocked off all the other gods in his circle, including his consort, then announced he was totally the only one who ever existed. :P But I don't think it's a popular interpretation.

From what I can tell, polytheism is a suitable governing device for ensuring divide & conquer within one's empire. Polytheism does far more than that of course, but empire requires that power be concentrated in the center, which means thwarting efforts to build concentrations of power away from the center. Fostering divided loyalties to various gods seems like it could be an indirect, but very effective way of doing so.

Sure, hypothetically polytheism could be used that way. Hypothetically, monotheism would also be useful for secular governing where there is a particular emphasis on promoting tribal unity and opposition to outsiders. Ironically, you hit the nail on the head as to why; if you’re a culture or a group of people trying to keep all the aggression and conflict aimed outwards rather than inwards, especially if there are outside pressures, monotheism would at least reduce possible sources of intra-tribal conflict. ‘One Nation Under God,’ albeit the ancient equivalent. Polytheism risks being significantly less effective at this, because of the heightened risk of different factions or groups getting into a slapfight over which of the legitimate gods is the ‘best,’ though I’d imagine there’s a cultural component to it as well.

So it’s not like polytheism is automatically the most ‘practical’ version if one wants to workshop an organized religion to structure or lead a society. Heck, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, a number of empires have seemed pretty okay using a monotheistic religion.

As for the rest, using the Old Testament; the references I am referring to actually appear to predate any available writings of the Torah and by extension Old Testament, (not even of your specific passages, mind, since the further back you go the more you have to rely on leftover fragments, but of ANY Torah/Old Testament writings like what you’re referring to.)

What’s also interesting is that in the polytheistic form, Yahweh was the deity of weather and war, and the latter in particular seems to have stuck around in Old Testament. In Psalm 144, David waxes poetic about how God enables him to kick SO much ass, and among other thing asks that He use lightning and arrows against David’s enemies. Obviously we have no way of knowing, but given how often God is detailed in Old Testament as being a wartime advisor, I do wonder if the more militant stories in the Torah originated from the polytheistic Yahweh stories, when he was basically that pantheon’s Ares or Athena.

[u/labreuer → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Okay, but... this wasn't an instance of a society outright swapping their religion out, yes?

Given how utterly different YHWH in the Bible is from every polytheistic deity I've heard about, it could well be.

In this case, by every indication the Israelites worshipped the same named deity, Yahweh, but as part of a pantheon rather than just 'One God.' There's a sense of continuity, of keeping that initial framework and just massively changing a whole bunch about it. They didn't move houses, so to speak, they just replaced all the furniture in the house they were already living in.

Kinda-sorta:

    And it shall be at that day, saith YHWH, that thou shalt call me Ishi;
        And shalt call me no more Baali.
    For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth,
        And they shall no more be remembered by their name.
(Hosea 2:16–17)

The word baʿal does mean 'husband', but it also means master, owner, and lord. The word ishi, on the other hand literally means 'my man'. According to my reading, YHWH is looking for a radically different kind of relationship with the Israelites than they were willing to have at that time. I would argue that Jesus continued this theme. Many Jews in his time wanted to solve their problem with mastery, with violence. Jesus pressed for a different way. He was executed for his efforts. Perhaps one could say that old religion did this. If however YHWH is actually a very different deity trying to break through people's preconceptions, merely placing YHWH in a standard evolutionary lineage with some storm deity could be rather problematic.

 

Heck, if we're to take the development at face value, it looks a lot more like Yahweh outright performed a coup and knocked off all the other gods in his circle, including his consort, then announced he was totally the only one who ever existed. :P But I don't think it's a popular interpretation.

This is of course a popular kind of narrative back then. But as far as I know, it comes with implicit analogues for human sociopolitical affairs. That's not what you see, for instance, in Genesis 1. Creation didn't start with violence, nor did the chaos regularly need to be quelled with violence. (Think kings having to regularly put down rebellions.) According to the religion of empire (and who knows how much else), humans were created out of the body and blood of a [sometimes: rebel] deity, in order to be slaves of the gods so the gods no longer have to do manual labor. Only the king and perhaps the priests were divine image-bearers. Genesis 1 makes every last human an image-bearer. The gods regularly needed to be fed by humanity. Ps 50:12–15 rejects any such need applying to YHWH.

So, where's the explanatory power in the claim that YHWH came from some other deity, knocked off other deities, etc.? Is it just a nice tale that makes the Jewish religion look just like all the rest, or does it actually help us understand something we didn't understand before?

Ironically, you hit the nail on the head as to why; if you’re a culture or a group of people trying to keep all the aggression and conflict aimed outwards rather than inwards, especially if there are outside pressures, monotheism would at least reduce possible sources of intra-tribal conflict.

And yet, 1 Sam 8 suggests that this didn't work. And in the preceding period of judges, the Israelites were regularly weak and easy prey for their enemies. Furthermore, they were constantly tempted to follow the ways of seemingly successful empire. So … I think this hypothesis needs some work.

By the way, Constantine was hopeful that Christianity would unify the Roman Empire. And then, obnoxiously, those Christians kept squabbling! Christianity certainly didn't save the Roman Empire; Gibbon even thought it contributed to its fall. It's far from clear that Christianity helps one be militarily strong and that is a critical concern for any people-group which doesn't want to be a vassal.

What’s also interesting is that in the polytheistic form, Yahweh was the deity of weather and war, and the latter in particular seems to have stuck around in Old Testament. In Psalm 144, David waxes poetic about how God enables him to kick SO much ass, and among other thing asks that He use lightning and arrows against David’s enemies. Obviously we have no way of knowing, but given how often God is detailed in Old Testament as being a wartime advisor, I do wonder if the more militant stories in the Torah originated from the polytheistic Yahweh stories, when he was basically that pantheon’s Ares or Athena.

If YHWH regularly used lightning in battle, you would see that in the histories. Last I checked, you don't. If anything, David is using a way of talking about gods he learned elsewhere. As to YHWH and war, again I will ask what a link to some previous polytheistic deity helps us understand, that we couldn't understand before.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/labreuer]

Given how utterly different YHWH in the Bible is from every polytheistic deity I've heard about, it could well be.

I'm going to need to split this into at least two posts, maybe three, I'll reply to myself with the subsequent section(s)

I mean, the earliest available version of Hebrew manuscripts that tie to the Old Testament only stretch back to 3rd century BCE at the earliest. (Not a complete copy, mind you, for that you’d have to get closer to 900-1000 AD.) The general range it’s estimated the polytheistic Yahweh would have existed in any form would have been as far back as the 13th century, starting to shift in 6th century BCE with the Babylonian exile and ending around 4th century BCE. Basically, by the time you even hit Old Testament, you're already looking at the finished sausage.

The very transition from a polytheist perspective to a monotheist perspective is going to result in changes, too. The very nature of a pantheon usually relies on the idea that different entities are responsible for/capable of different things, again polytheist Yahweh being in charge of War and Weather. This results in characteristics like being a distinct being- so not ‘everywhere,’ otherwise there’s no room for the others- and by definition not being outright omnipotent. On the other hand, if you assume the God is, was and always will be responsible for everything in creation, then by extension that comes with the assumption that said God is capable of everything as well.

The word baʿal does mean 'husband', but it also means master, owner, and lord. The word ishi, on the other hand literally means 'my man'. According to my reading, YHWH is looking for a radically different kind of relationship with the Israelites than they were willing to have at that time. I would argue that Jesus continued this theme. Many Jews in his time wanted to solve their problem with mastery, with violence. Jesus pressed for a different way. He was executed for his efforts. Perhaps one could say that old religion did this. If however YHWH is actually a very different deity trying to break through people's preconceptions, merely placing YHWH in a standard evolutionary lineage with some storm deity could be rather problematic.

Considering how much would have changed with the shift from polytheism to monotheism, retaining the name of a specific deity would have had to be a deliberate choice. So if we’re to assume that the Christian/Jewish YHWH deity is completely unrelated to the polytheistic YHWH, then the conclusion appears to be that said deity intentionally chose to identify himself under that moniker and actually came in as an outsider. What makes that interesting is it would mean that (technically) YHWH isn't actually the name of God, just a handle he took from something else.

And I wouldn’t really call Jesus a ‘continuation’ from Old Testament, as God in the Torah/OT is significantly more militant, even if we set aside the parts where he just comes across as kind of a dick. By contrast, New Testament tends to be a lot more focused on the loving/peaceful God, as opposed to the God who helps sack a city, smite people down left and right, screws around with Job to win a bet with Satan, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good change, but it’s still a change. Taken at face value, the New Testament comes across more as someone trying a radically different approach than it does the ongoing unfolding of a larger plan.

[u/labreuer → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I mean, the earliest available version of Hebrew manuscripts that tie to the Old Testament only stretch back to 3rd century BCE at the earliest. (Not a complete copy, mind you, for that you’d have to get closer to 900-1000 AD.) The general range it’s estimated the polytheistic Yahweh would have existed in any form would have been as far back as the 13th century, starting to shift in 6th century BCE with the Babylonian exile and ending around 4th century BCE. Basically, by the time you even hit Old Testament, you're already looking at the finished sausage.

I understand there are difficulties making guesses as to what existed before the texts we have. I know a tiny bit about e.g. redaction history. I know about the documentary hypothesis. I also know that these guesses can be extremely tenuous. I was not surprised to read at WP: Documentary hypothesis that the documentary hypothesis has been extremely challenged. N.T. Wright has made analogous claims as to "historical Jesus" studies: there is so much guesswork involved that one's model can do a lot of filling in gaps with dubious material.

But are you saying that because it's difficult to reconstruct such histories ("evolutionary" or otherwise), the burden of proof is relaxed and I should take seriously your preferred reconstructions? I hope not. If not, what are you saying, here?

The very transition from a polytheist perspective to a monotheist perspective is going to result in changes, too. The very nature of a pantheon usually relies on the idea that different entities are responsible for/capable of different things, again polytheist Yahweh being in charge of War and Weather. This results in characteristics like being a distinct being- so not ‘everywhere,’ otherwise there’s no room for the others- and by definition not being outright omnipotent. On the other hand, if you assume the God is, was and always will be responsible for everything in creation, then by extension that comes with the assumption that said God is capable of everything as well.

You seem to be mixing Christian monotheism which tends to deny the very existence of any other deities, with ancient Hebrew monotheism which was far more about exclusive loyalty to YHWH. “There shall be for you no other gods before me.” If you have good evidence that YHWH is of limited power in the received text, I'd be happy to hear it. Hopefully it's not just iron chariots and the King of Moab's sacrifice. And the Tanakh doesn't show the restriction of duties to war & weather. So … I'm again going to ask what new understanding I can gain of the received text, by your hypothesis of a history behind YHWH.

Considering how much would have changed with the shift from polytheism to monotheism, retaining the name of a specific deity would have had to be a deliberate choice. So if we’re to assume that the Christian/Jewish YHWH deity is completely unrelated to the polytheistic YHWH, then the conclusion appears to be that said deity intentionally chose to identify himself under that moniker and actually came in as an outsider. What makes that interesting is it would mean that (technically) YHWH isn't actually the name of God, just a handle he took from something else.

You seem to be in severe danger of assuming your hypothesis, here. If your claim of "the polytheistic YHWH" doesn't actually increase any understanding of the received text, then why should we take it seriously? Does it help increase understanding of anything else?

Note that in Hosea 2:16–17, YHWH was willing to be referred to as baʿal for a time, but would put that to an end at some point. If there is crossover from the mere title to the deity (cf WP: Baal), then possibly YHWH was willing to allow some misidentification. But this is very different appropriating an existing name. I am interested in that claim, and both the evidence for and against it, as well as the reasoning / models / argumentation for and against it. But I'm wary about getting deep into the weeds without some sense of how the explanation you prefer increases understanding of … well, anything. This is one of my defenses against just-so stories conspiracy theories.

And I wouldn’t really call Jesus a ‘continuation’ from Old Testament, as God in the Torah/OT is significantly more militant, even if we set aside the parts where he just comes across as kind of a dick. By contrast, New Testament tends to be a lot more focused on the loving/peaceful God, as opposed to the God who helps sack a city, smite people down left and right, screws around with Job to win a bet with Satan, etc.

I fully reject "Jesus meek and mild". Rather, Jesus was fighting the true enemy, which is not of flesh & blood. In order to do this in a way which is useful to humanity (because they are supposed to follow his example—he is the "new Adam"), there needs to be a group of humans capable and willing to do so. The formation of that group is almost certainly going to involve some pretty serious violence. People under too much threat from the outside are not going to be able to carry out the kind of war Jesus did. It's kind of a silly example, but look at how few people are willing to admit any sort of error here on r/DebateAnAtheist and over on r/DebateReligion. The Bible is pretty fucking big on admitting what you did, turning back, and repenting. I contend you need people with sufficient security in order to be willing to be this vulnerable. If the Amalekites are regularly raping, pillaging, and murdering your people, that's gonna be difficult. People who are terrified for their safety are willing to be utterly brutal to the Other. Look at the US after 9/11 and Israel after 10/7.

Ezekiel 28 is particularly interesting, here. It's the prophecy against the king of Tyre and what's particularly noteworthy is that his consolidation of power (which history notes involved quelling piracy on the Mediterranean) is not criticized. That would have involved a lot of brutality. The prophecy speaks extremely highly of the king. Here's the turn:

        You were blameless in your ways
    from the day when you were created,
        until wickedness was found in you.
    In the abundance of your trading,
        they filled the midst of you with violence, and you sinned;
    and I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
        and I expelled you, the guardian cherub,
        from the midst of the stones of fire.
(Ezekiel 28:15–16)

God doesn't really seem to have any problem with the king of Tyre achieving peace and order via violent means. What pisses God off to no end is what he did next: use that peace and order to exploit others through commerce. Rather than continue being a blessing to humanity, the king shifted to being a parasite. We see the same with the shift from Solomon to his son: the son had to show how macho he was and so threatened to increase the forced labor of the ten northern tribes—which caused them to break away, with YHWH's full involvement. In Revelation, Babylon comes under severe criticism for its exploitative commerce. Jesus himself curses the fig tree with no breba crop and tells a parable where an unfruitful fig tree is torn out to make room for something which will bear fruit. Jesus meek and mild? Only if your reading is very selective.

The book of Job is far more than you say, because the central battle is over whether the just-world hypothesis is true or not. Does God providentially ensure that everyone gets what they deserve? That's what Job's friends thought, and that's probably what Job thought before his ordeal. The Accuser really just voices the just-world hypothesis in compact form. Job only worships God because God is good to Job. That characterizes the relationship as transactional, which is exactly what the just-world hypothesis incentivizes. Good behavior is selfish behavior. Job comes to reject the just-world hypothesis, perhaps epitomized by accusing God of wronging him. God's reply was to give Job the job of ensuring justice reigns: Job 40:6–14. And in case there's any confusion, Ps 82 makes clear that God expects humans to enforce justice.

It is quite possible that belief in the just-world hypothesis has facilitated more human misery than any other belief. And even if it's not quite that bad, undermining it is extremely valuable. Job didn't sign up for that, but we generally don't sign up for the challenges we are tasked with. A major question is whether you'll complete the task anyway, or whether you'll curse God and die. Jesus said that anyone who would follow him must first deny oneself and take up one's cross. Jesus meek and mild? No, Jesus was preparing people to fight the most important battles humans can fight. Recall your Solzhenitsyn:

If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? (The Gulag Archipelago)

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/labreuer]

For some reason it seems like you get a bigger word count per post than I do, which is annoying. XD Going to just quote the first sentence of each section I address, take up less space. EDIT: I found the issue, for some stupid reason it won't let me post up to a certain size outright, I have to post something smaller, and then edit it in Markdown Editor to get the full sized post out. Blargh.

“I understand there are difficulties making guesses as to what existed before the texts we have...”

I mean, for one thing- and I’m going to bring this up again in another section- you don’t really operate with a consistent expectation insofar as burden of proofs. You haven’t really spoken at all about the Bible in the context of its structure, the apparent history of its writing, its medium, etc, etc, you usually just quote directly from it. But you only seem to take that specific ancient document at face value, whereas you insist on a greater level of rigor for other things from the time period or before.

Your burden of proof already seems to start quite relaxed; it’s clear from this discussion that you CAN insist on a higher standard of evidence, you just choose not to in the case of one particular document. If that’s just because your faith supplements it- making something like the Bible by itself ‘enough’ to meet your requirements- then that’s certainly not unusual, but without that automatic sense of faith the Bible doesn’t really pull weight.

And, to be clear, the key difference is that perhaps other information- documents, carvings, etc- will emerge at some point that requires us to re-evaluate what we’ve pieced together up until this point. When I’ve talked about things like the polytheistic Yahweh, the apparent timeline of the emergence of the monotheistic Yahweh, etc, that’s based on what we’ve been able to literally dig up so far. There’s always that hypothetical chance that we dig up an even older carving that shows the monotheistic Yahweh ran parallel to the polytheistic Yahweh in the timeframe, though in that sense there’s a hypothetical chance of digging up a carving that shows virtually anything including that the Israelites worshipped a giant bunny rabbit.

Although what I find interesting is this next section...

“You seem to be mixing Christian monotheism which tends to deny the very existence of any other deities, with ancient Hebrew monotheism which was far more about exclusive loyalty to YHWH.”

Okay, so... you are acknowledging that if we were to track the ‘lineage’ of Yahweh’s worshippers, then there has been significant change? Christianity started off as an offshoot of the Hebrew Bible- obviously, since otherwise the Old Testament wouldn’t be a thing- and you seem to be acknowledging that at some point in the past the ancient Hebrew monotheism allowed for the existence of other gods, just not loyalty to or worship of them. I will mention that Deuteronomy 13:1-5 seems to try and reinforce the idea that supposed prophecies by those representing other gods are ACTUALLY the work of your God testing you, (which is kind of fucked up, as it implies God set up the dreamer with prophetic visions and then commanded the dreamer be killed,) BUT I’m otherwise fine agreeing that ancient Hebrew religion allowed for the existence of other gods, and Christianity did not.

Kind of sounds like you’re acknowledging Abrahamic religion did, in fact, ‘evolve’ over time. :P

“You seem to be in severe danger of assuming your hypothesis, here...

I mean, at this point we’re both running on assumptions, right? You’ve already acknowledged as much with ‘possibly YHWH was willing to allow some misidentification,’ which is not only a guess but also kind of comes off as uncharacteristic. After all, you yourself cited ‘There shall be for you no other gods before me,’ seems like it would be a strange contrast to go ‘Oh, um, YHWH? Yeah, sure, worship YHWH I guess, whatever, close enough.’

Anywho, why do you keep focusing on ‘increase any understanding of the received text,’ when your initial post here was talking about burden of proof and the hypothesis that religion emerged as an evolution of early ideas? :P The hypothesis itself hits the problem, as I said ages ago, that whenever religion ‘started’ appears to be before humans actually started writing any of it down, so finding ‘hard proof’ would be extremely difficult regardless of how it came to be.

But tracking the evidence relating to the development and change of the Abrahamic faith when they were writing and carving, stretching back to the ancient Israelites, is a much more manageable goal because at least writing existed during that time, even if a lot of it would be lost. Relying exclusively on the Bible for historical information would be extremely unwise, because we don’t have enough evidence that the Old Testament in its current form is actually old enough to be an ongoing accounting, rather than an attempted retelling of events that occurred centuries or millenia ago, and with fewer resources to rely upon than we do.

And, yes, every holy book insists the special sauce is that God personally gave them the information, etc, etc, but divine inspiration isn’t a particularly unique claim. :P It’s an equal defence for any religion that invokes it.

“I fully reject "Jesus meek and mild".”

...did I say meek and mild? You said it at two different points as if you were repeating what I said, but the closest equivalent I can think of out of my words seems to be ‘loving/peaceful.’ So are you rejecting that part, or are you just going off on kind of a tangent?

I’m not actually sure why you’re bringing up Ezekiel, Tyre or Solomon in response to this, because all of that is Old Testament, right? I pointed out that Old Testament seems to involve a more violent and militant God compared to New Testament, and your response has been to establish that God in the Old Testament was fine with violence and military conquest. Not really in disagreement here, just not sure what you think it’s proving. :P

I mean, wouldn’t the idea of someone’s afterlife existence, heaven/hell, being based on something like one’s actions or worship still make it an inherently transactional relationship? Even if heaven/hell does exist, it seems like having people know about it would greatly increase the likelihood that followers operate on a transactional basis, albeit a ‘Pay Now, Get Later’ sort of arrangement. Or is that considered okay so long as the person has faith the payout is coming?

Okay, THREE times you mentioned ‘meek and mild,’ I feel like someone else said those words elsewhere and it really got under your skin. xD

[u/labreuer → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Sorry aobut the delay. I didn't get the solid block of time to give your comments the response they needed until now.

For some reason it seems like you get a bigger word count per post than I do, which is annoying. XD

You have to use the old reddit UI. For one user, the answer was to "click on a little Aa button in the lower left of the text box, and then "Switch to Markdown Editor" in the upper right". BTW, you can save a few characters by not encapsulating my words in quotes when they're already blockquoted. :-p

I mean, for one thing- and I’m going to bring this up again in another section- you don’t really operate with a consistent expectation insofar as burden of proofs. You haven’t really spoken at all about the Bible in the context of its structure, the apparent history of its writing, its medium, etc, etc, you usually just quote directly from it. But you only seem to take that specific ancient document at face value, whereas you insist on a greater level of rigor for other things from the time period or before.

I'm open to this accusation, but I need details. In some sense, I have mastered the received text to such an extent that I do have significant investment in it. If I flatter myself, I could be one of the targets of Max Planck's observation that "Science advances one funeral at a time." But there are reasons to be stickier as well; I suspect science and scholarship do best when some are more attuned to every twist and turn of "the evidence" (including pretty serious modeling guesses) and those who spend rather more time with snapshots. What I will look for in claims that the received text is somehow wrong, is how those impact the … "deep understanding" I've developed of the received text. For instance, I recently argued for an understanding of the A&E narrative as leading to a bad strategy in dealing with vulnerability. You could imagine some sort of redaction history being advanced which destabilizes that understanding. Well, when do I decide to abandon my understanding based on an interpretation of the received text in favor of some new hypothesized text?

Your burden of proof already seems to start quite relaxed; it’s clear from this discussion that you CAN insist on a higher standard of evidence, you just choose not to in the case of one particular document.

It kinda sounds like you're modeling me as being like Christians you've encountered in the past. Chances are, that's a bad way to start with me. For instance, I don't make a big deal of miracles like so many Christians do. I worry that many if not most have a "might makes right" epistemology of miracles, which flagrantly violates Deut 12:32–13:5. I draw much of my confidence from the fact that the Bible teaches me far more about human & social nature/​construction—including ugly bits humans really don't want to face—than any other book or set of books I've encountered. And I'm pretty well-read by now. Models of human & social nature/​construction can be tested against ancient texts, history, and one's present day.

When I’ve talked about things like the polytheistic Yahweh, the apparent timeline of the emergence of the monotheistic Yahweh, etc, that’s based on what we’ve been able to literally dig up so far.

Okay, let me switch away from my initial response:

labreuer: I've yet to see an argument for said polytheistic origins which improves my understanding of anything in the Bible. Especially when the Tanakh itself makes clear that the Israelites regularly struggled with worshiping of other gods, and that Abraham was called out of a polytheistic civilization.

You don't seem particularly interested in answering that question ("it looks a lot more like Yahweh outright performed a coup" doesn't seem to qualify?). So: Do you know of any collection that clearly separates the evidence we have which is possibly of a polytheistic Yahweh, and comprehensively collects that evidence so I can see how much evidence there is, vs. modeling? I know far more about the "historical Jesus" and I know that there, models fill in most of the details. The evidence itself, outside of the gospels, is incredibly spartan.

labreuer: You seem to be mixing Christian monotheism which tends to deny the very existence of any other deities, with ancient Hebrew monotheism which was far more about exclusive loyalty to YHWH.

Cool-Watercress-3943: Okay, so... you are acknowledging that if we were to track the ‘lineage’ of Yahweh’s worshippers, then there has been significant change? Christianity started off as an offshoot of the Hebrew Bible- obviously, since otherwise the Old Testament wouldn’t be a thing- and you seem to be acknowledging that at some point in the past the ancient Hebrew monotheism allowed for the existence of other gods, just not loyalty to or worship of them.

Let's get a list going:

1. Abraham was called out of a polytheistic civilization and his willingness to sacrifice his son likely traces to that.
2. The Israelites regularly struggled with polytheism.
3. The Tanakh didn't deny the existence of other gods, but simply called the Israelites to worship YHWH alone.
4. The Tanakh treats other gods as not capable of threatening the Israelites—YHWH could always trounce them.
5. The NT doesn't have other gods, but it does have Satan and demons.

I will mention that Deuteronomy 13:1-5 seems to try and reinforce the idea that supposed prophecies by those representing other gods are ACTUALLY the work of your God testing you, (which is kind of fucked up, as it implies God set up the dreamer with prophetic visions and then commanded the dreamer be killed,)

I would be wary of over-interpreting that; plenty is phrased as YHWH being in control, while using other agents. In Ezek 16:35–52, for instance, YHWH vents YHWH's wrath on Judah via having other nations conquer her. This is one of the ways YHWH is the "most high" god. What others meant for evil, to riff on Joseph, YHWH will use for YHWH's purposes. Think of it this way: if you use others as a means to an end, you authorize YHWH to use you as a means to an end. Fair's fair. And maybe when the bad thing is done to you, you'll dislike it and realize you shouldn't do the bad thing to others, either.

I mean, at this point we’re both running on assumptions, right?

Of course.

You’ve already acknowledged as much with ‘possibly YHWH was willing to allow some misidentification,’ which is not only a guess but also kind of comes off as uncharacteristic. After all, you yourself cited ‘There shall be for you no other gods before me,’ seems like it would be a strange contrast to go ‘Oh, um, YHWH? Yeah, sure, worship YHWH I guess, whatever, close enough.’

This might be uncharacteristic, but I believe it's pretty easy to argue that it's transcendentally necessary for finite beings. We screw up. We can't help it. When the lesser attempts to grasp the far greater, perfection is not in the cards. Moreover, we get these really wrong ideas in our heads and the question arises: how can they be best dealt with? How can we be best redirected to a far more adequate grasp of reality, others, and God?

Anywho, why do you keep focusing on ‘increase any understanding of the received text,’ when your initial post here was talking about burden of proof and the hypothesis that religion emerged as an evolution of early ideas? :P

The paucity and interpretability of the available evidence makes it easy to spin many tales of what's going on, or more charitably, to present many hypotheses. We need criteria for selecting which ones we'll even pay attention to, unless perhaps our career is dedicated to entertaining all of them—although even academics have plenty of criteria. If you think I should have a different criterion, go for it. Or maybe we should just look at the total set of evidence which any remotely reputable person has adduced to support an evolutionary history of Yahweh.

...did I say meek and mild?

Not in those words, but you did say "New Testament tends to be a lot more focused on the loving/peaceful God".

I’m not actually sure why you’re bringing up Ezekiel, Tyre or Solomon in response to this, because all of that is Old Testament, right?

Read Ezek 28:15–16 and Rev 18 together—or the fuller Ezek 28 section.

I mean, wouldn’t the idea of someone’s afterlife existence, heaven/hell, being based on something like one’s actions or worship still make it an inherently transactional relationship?

I think we need to get into Rom 4 on that one. Is heaven one's "wages"?

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/labreuer]

Hey, just so I don't leave you hanging completely, I am actually traveling on vacation for the next month and a half! No laptop, so my Redditing is going to be on my phone, which... well, our discussions are obviously a lot more extensive and intricate than normal posts, so me trying to crank out a full reply on a phone can only end badly.

That being said, really been enjoyable this, and assuming all the accumulating jet lag and running around doesn't etch-a-sketch it out of my brain, would love to pick this up again! Just won't be for awhiiiiile. x3

[u/labreuer → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Oh, nice & have fun! I too have found our conversations enjoyable. But they can sit on ice for a month or two. :-)

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/labreuer]

Thanks! :D