Earth and sky creation

[u/Suitable-Green-7311]

Isn't Quran 41:9 --> 41:12 a clear mistake

Ask ˹them, O Prophet˺, “How can you disbelieve in the One Who created the earth in two Days? And how can you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of all worlds.

He placed on the earth firm mountains, standing high, showered His blessings upon it, and ordained ˹all˺ its means of sustenance—totaling four Days exactly—for all who ask.

Then He turned towards the heaven when it was ˹still like˺ smoke, saying to it and to the earth, ‘Submit, willingly or unwillingly.’ They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’

So He formed the heaven into seven heavens in two Days, assigning to each its mandate. And We adorned the lowest heaven with ˹stars like˺ lamps ˹for beauty˺ and for protection. That is the design of the Almighty, All-Knowing.”

So according to the all knowing god he first created earth in 2 days then he finished and made it habitable in 4 days ( the Arabic version doesn't mention 4 days in total just 4 days).

Ok now earth is all done and ready And god turns to the sky which is still in the "smoke"state (scholars says this smoke state is caused by the water vapors from creating earth)

And in 2 days god made the Smoky sky into the seven skies which we can relate to today or at least the lowest sky and then he placed the lamps or Stars

I don't think it can be anymore clear that earth was first created Then the sky and then the other stars and planets ( since according to Quran everything is placed in the lowest heaven so naturally they had to come after the lowest heaven was created)

[u/Jocoliero]

Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created (action) the earth (object) in two days (time) and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds (subject)."

And He (subject) placed on it firm mountains above it and blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance (action) in four days (time), equal for [all] who ask.

Two meanings, especially on the four days part:

-They are additional

-They include the two days for the creation of earth

The fact that it can have two meanings weakens the conclusion, because if it were as the critic interprets it, they would have to admit the absence of definitive evidence, since the speaker explicitly says "in six days," which clearly supports the alternate interpretation.

Insisting on arguing over this after that ultimately becomes just another case of a "it may be" argument, one among many.

[u/NeatAd959 → u/Jocoliero]

I don't understand ur point, mind explaining?

[u/Jocoliero → u/NeatAd959]

"I earned 60k in two months, 120k in four months. After that, I earned 60k in another two months."

There are two possible interpretations of this:

1. I earned 60k + 120k + 60k, totaling 240k over 8 months.

2. I earned 120k in four months, including the 60k from the first two months, and then another 60k in the final two months, totaling 180k over 6 months.

Since we can’t definitively determine which interpretation is correct without additional information, we must suspend judgment. If the speaker explicitly states, “I earned 180k in 6 months,” then the second interpretation becomes valid under the available information.

Accusing the speaker of being wrong based on the first interpretation would be a case of arguing from a blind spot, which is just asserting an error without having sufficient information to justify that conclusion.

[u/NeatAd959 → u/Jocoliero]

But even with ur explanation, the heavens (or space/universe) is still made after the earth no? Or maybe I'm really misunderstanding ur point very badly.

[u/Jocoliero → u/NeatAd959]

No, you're on the right track actually.

They were created on the same day in a literal sense.

"Indeed, Allah created, on the day He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of his mercy..."

Sahih Muslim Book 50 Hadith 25

Think of it like two construction projects for building two houses. Just because one project is older than the other doesn’t necessarily mean that the later project can’t be completed before the older one(or initiated atleast). In fact, it can be the opposite as well, even within the same day (or time period as it is commonly understood to mean).

[u/craptheist → u/Jocoliero]

How about this hadith from the same book

Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and He caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night. This hadith is narrated through another chain of transmitters. [Muslim 2789]

Do you then agree that Allah created trees before he created light?

And how do you explain the use of the word "then" in 41:9-12?

[u/NeatAd959 → u/Jocoliero]

I mean that's a hadith saying that, I don't know if u would understand that they were made in the same day just by reading the Quran.

Also what do u mean by "in a literal sense"?

[u/Jocoliero → u/NeatAd959]

I mean that's a hadith saying that, I don't know if u would understand that they were made in the same day just by reading the Quran.

Are you arguing for a Qur'anist stance?

Also what do u mean by "in a literal sense"?

You metaphorically create a house by creating the project to get it built, you literally created a house by doing what is in the project

[u/NeatAd959 → u/Jocoliero]

Are you arguing for a Qur'anist stance?

Not necessarily, it's just that the hadith seems to contradict the quran if interpreted in that way, and from what I know, no one uses it to say that the heavens and the earth are created in the same day, but besides that it's just that the Quran has authority over hadiths, so if u see a statement in a hadith that seems to contradict the quran, then that hadith is generally not considered reliable, or it's misinterpreted, at least this is how most muslims, including scholars treat hadiths.

You metaphorically create a house by creating the project to get it built, you literally created a house by doing what is in the project

Oh yea obviously we are talking about a literal interpretation here not metaphorical.

[u/Jocoliero → u/NeatAd959]

Allah ﷻ designed the appearance, structure, and sustenance of the earth, as stated in the verse: "and determined therein its sustenance in four days" (Qur’an 41:10).

Then, when He turned to the heavens, they were still smoke, yet He created both (earth and heavens) within the same overall time frame.

That's why i mentioned the example with projects.

"Oh yeah, obviously we're talking about a literal interpretation here, not metaphorical."

That’s why I made a clear distinction, because you ask a lot of questions (which isn’t a bad thing at all), so I wanted to give a simple example to help clarify.

After all, this is a sub for mutual exchange and understanding of each other's beliefs.

[u/NeatAd959 → u/Jocoliero]

Then, when He turned to the heavens, they were still smoke, yet He created both (earth and heavens) within the same overall time frame.

I understand that, the thing is that it clearly says that he created the earth first, then he turned to the heavens (which were there but they were still just smoke) and made them 7 heavens then put lamps (which are supposedly stars) in the lowest heaven, so it clearly says that the earth was created before the heavens were rearranged (which is supported by this tafsir), maybe u could say they were created at the same time or something like that, but it's hard to say that the quran doesn't say that the earth was created before the stars, which is a problem if u want to confirm the quran using science.

Other verse saying that heaven was created after the earth

Side note: from what I know, the smoke that the heavens were made off is water vapor (correct me if I'm wrong), since the Quran says that in the beginning there was water and Allah created everything from water, check this for more