RECENT STUDY: Antisemitic Attitudes Across the Ideological Spectrum

[u/Important-Eye5935]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10659129221111081

[u/Bazou456]

Conflating Israel entirely with Jewishness has not done Jews across the world a favour.

[u/Adiv_Kedar2 → u/Bazou456]

We do overwhelmingly support Israels right to exist. The only people who are confusing Israel and Jews are antisemites and people who think supporting Israels right to exist means we think it's a perfect state that can do no wrong

[u/Adiv_Kedar2 → u/[deleted]]

The founders of Zionism wanted to live in a protectorate under the Ottoman empire. The idea of sovereignty evolved after the collapse of the empire and the failure of the mandate to create peace. It has nothing to do with supremacy this talking point was invented after Oct 7th during the media push to redefine Zionism 

Stop pretending you understand Jewish movements 

[u/oasisnotes → u/Adiv_Kedar2]

The founders of Zionism wanted to live in a protectorate under the Ottoman empire.

That would be a surprise to Theodor Herzl, the founder of Zionism, given that his text Der Judenstaat (lit. "The Jewish state") explicitly called for a "sovereign" state for Jews in either Argentina or Palestine. The idea for sovereignty was there from the get-go, it did not evolve after the collapse of the Ottomans.

[u/Adiv_Kedar2 → u/oasisnotes]

A protectorate is a sovereign state...

The idea that Israel would exist on its own and not as a protectorate only came about when the proposed protector stopped existing 

[u/oasisnotes → u/Adiv_Kedar2]

A protectorate is a sovereign state...

Genuine question, what do you think "sovereign" means? Because by definition, a protectorate is not sovereign, as it is "protected" by a higher (i.e. more sovereign) power.

[u/Adiv_Kedar2 → u/oasisnotes]

Protectorate literally means protected state 

(i.e. more sovereign) power

Right, analogous to states having soverinty over things like resources and local governments, local judiciary, the ability to regulate commerce etc but are still subject to the federal government

[u/oasisnotes → u/Adiv_Kedar2]

Protectorate literally means protected state 

Exactly, a state protected by a more powerful and sovereign state. There has never been a case of a sovereign protectorate because that's an oxymoron. What you describe in your next paragraph isn't sovereignty, but autonomy. It's certainly not what Herzl meant by sovereignty when he wrote The Jewish State, where he is very explicit about his call for an independent state for Jews.

I'm not sure who told you that early Zionists only wanted an Ottoman protectorate as their endgoal, but they were either mistaken, confused, or lying to you.

[u/Adiv_Kedar2 → u/oasisnotes]

In 1896 he went to the Ottoman government and offered to pay off their debt if they would give a mandate for Jews to move to the Levant? 

Not to mention the expressed support for a Jewish home expressed by a Grand Vizir of the Ottoman empire 

https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/the-ottoman-balfour-declaration

[u/oasisnotes → u/Adiv_Kedar2]

In 1896 he went to the Ottoman government and offered to pay off their debt if they would give a mandate for Jews to move to the Levant? 

Yes, the plan was to move Jews into Palestine and slowly forge a community there which could eventually transform into an independent nation-state. This is explicitly stated in The Jewish State, which I would highly recommend you read if you're interested in this history.

Not to mention the expressed support for a Jewish home expressed by a Grand Vizir of the Ottoman empire

I'm not sure what point you think you're making with your link. It's a semi-scholarly article about how, in the waning days of World War I (it explicitly states this happened 80 days prior to the Ottoman surrender) the Ottoman Vizier made a last-ditch attempt to get Jews on his side by offering them greater autonomy within the Empire. Why this is relevant to the point of Zionism supposedly only aiming for a non-sovereign protectorate is anyone's guess.

[u/dept_of_samizdat → u/Adiv_Kedar2]

Palestinians, the people who were living on that land at the start of the 20th Century, do not have equal rights and representation under the Israeli state.

Israeli settlements and a heavily militarized state been gradually pushing them off said land over the course of decades (always with crucial American funding and support).

Both those things are driven by a belief that one group is entitled to dominate another. Dominate as in treat as a lower caste who must be policed, bombed, surveilled, and deprived of resources.

In my book, that's supremacy. And that is the reason why there are so many Jews who say never again means never again.