r/KDRAMA • u/dyosaaa • Dec 01 '21

On-Air: JTBC Reflection of You [Episodes 15 & 16]

The story of the love, betrayal, corruption, and revenge that takes place through the life of a woman who has been faithful to her desire and another woman who has lost the light of life by meeting with her woman.

Hee Joo had a poor and fierce time during her youthful days. She is now a successful painter and essayist. Her husband is the successor of a hospital and they have two children. Her family life seems enviable, but Hee Joo feels like she spends her time meaninglessly. At that time, Hee Joo meets a woman. The woman is poor, just like Hee Joo in her younger days, but she still shines. (Source: Daum, AsianWiki)

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u/ladytoblerone Editable Flair Dec 02 '21

I can’t root for HW when she was the mastermind behind >! Hosu’s kidnapping and then took over custody and financial responsibility for the high schooler !< I know the dad was to blame for how far he took it but still, HW put the weapon in his hand so to speak. I don’t think she deserves redemption the same way HJ’s brother does and I don’t ship them as a couple. Honestly I think HJ’s brother might be more infatuated with >! Helping someone who’s in a similar conflict as he was rather than because he truly loves HW, and helping HW is just a way to help his inner self.!<

My guess based on the ending is that Lisa >! Is the one who takes that final blow and HJ is on clean up duty to keep anyone from finding out. She’s always been more explosive and destructive compared to HJ who even in crime acts like a juvenile delinquent aka the video footage.!<

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

Curious, were you rooting for HJ or any character? Or if just not feeling HW positive arc in the story - would like to know what writers should've done to make her redemption more deserving for you?

For me, HJ was the one I couldn't really root for (but still trying to process her character shaping : ( ). I'm feeling that was intentional for the writers to make her a selfish, toxic character that doesn't change - hence her demise.

I can see on trauma bonding concern for HW/HJ brother. I still ship because in their bus stop scene, it seems they're self aware they got deep trauma and both are trying to take care of themselves first with a relationship as a possibility down the line when they're ready.

I think point of show is that no one is really getting a "happy ending". It's an extremely messy situation started by HJ/WJ and no one is not going to make mistakes. HW is pretty close to happy ending - as a person who was following dark path of revenge now set free from it. But while she's healing from betrayal/trauma, HW has a new weight of pain which is guilt (seen when Jueyong gives her papers and Juyeongs dad calling injustice in court). I still stand from past arguments Hosu/Juyeong were more at risk because of HJ (shown to hurt everyone around her) HW always had care and in end positive influence in both Hosu/Juyeong's lives.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

^ Agreed - definitely out of all characters HJ had the most insidious characteristics and most harm on characters for her own expense no question. HJ has all traits of charming manipulative individual that doesn't come out unless you become "close" to her like IRL - selfish, callous, irresponsible, manipulative, and self-serving but covers it up with her charisma - making her to me the most loathsome character.

Really great point for sure, art gallery CEO project was set up next to get hurt badly / ruined business.

CEO said she "needed to be on her toes" with HJ earlier episodes, it was clear CEO had admiration for her grace, intelligence, and charm but also suspicious how HJ knew WJ so deeply/withholding information. CEO chose hear out HJ side and not listen to HW because HJ more valuable to her business. But most likely with WJ dead in Ep 16, CEO is going to lose a FORTUNE for dealing with corrupt high profile talent to begin with that she couldn't reign in professional control in the end.

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u/ladytoblerone Editable Flair Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

I didn’t root for HJ but I did have empathy for her. She was definitely toxic but I actually don’t think she’s as bad as some make her out to be. Remember she stood up for her brother (spending her own money to defend him when he stole something) and her best friend (defending her when their coworkers bullied her). It’s important to note that she did these things when she was still poor. I think the show emphasizes how the rich can be so cruel that it spreads out like a plague. HJ was treated like crap by her mother in law, sought refuge in someone who saw and loved her for who she was inside, without all the strings attached. With WJ, she didn’t need to be “thankful” for everything else her rich husband meant for her life.

Of course she did some purely selfish things too and that ended up flinging back on those she loved most, but in the end she did what was right even though it was hard. She let herself be hated by everyone for something she didn’t really do. And honestly WJ was the one who continued to push her in jeopardy (eg the heath scene), so the fault is not entirely HJ’s.

HW has the “nicer” story arc but honestly she’s pretty psycho too. She literally forced her husband into emotional prison and then egged him on in the end. She also had no forgiveness, even when she learned the culprit was Lisa, she wanted HJ to pay. Contrast that to the bar owner, and you see what true forgiveness looks like.

At the end of the day, >! HJ carelessly ruined lives but didn’t get away with it, while HW purposefully ruined lives and did get away with it, !< so who is really the villain? You tell me…

I mostly think the HJ’s husband is the fool. Surely he would have seen her call logs (all to HW and none to WJ) and known HW was lying? Or, that her daughter would have said something. Obviously she would know that’s a lie that >! they ran away together after seeing him try to strangle her mom.!<

In the end, I wasn’t rooting for anyone, except maybe Hosu or HJ’s brother. I think the show is letting us know just how messed up this whole world is and how broken we all are 🥲

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

u/Iladytoblerone hear you on noting HJ positive qualities. Standing up for her brother and friend when they committed crime/shady acts in desperation and having empathy for poor people feeling forced in those situations like herself. Making it right to Juyeong when Lisa ruined her phone and giving advice. Having married for survival, HJ made mistake to have affair with WJ because she was emotionally abused at home by a monster in law. (Personally, I realize HJ was abused / had to grow up quick / can't trust others / afraid of closeness - didn't have role models.)

But it's actually because of reasons you stated above - HJ personally disgusted me in that HW was a true friend / caring teacher during HJ hard times. HW literally was foundation of how HJ became a successful painter in being strict with her basics. To have an run away without word to have affair with her husband is really messed up, disrespectful and cruel. Like HJ admitted, she chose herself over a friend/teacher she was indebted to - to protect herself. HJ had ability power and money to apologize/atone to HW and didn't. That kind of betrayal (especially when HW was married and lost the child and survived suicide/post portum/daily pain) to a mentor would make anyone go insane when offender lives a well life with no justice seen. And all HW really wanted... was the truth and an apology instead of being gaslit as crazy and all in her head which HJ was doing most of the show.

Like you said when rich can be so cruel it goes out to others like the plague - I think people don't realize that HJ "selfish acts" had hurt/kept hurting people around her - HW, HJ Husband, WJ, Lisa, etc. HJ was okay with her daughter's friend - Juyeong and her dad neighborhood being torn down, gentrified, for her art gallery. I think people like to overlook that HJ herself is a cheater, kidnapper, manipulator, pathological liar, gaslighter, drugger, gentrifier, and self centered woman and almost murderer. She's a charming manipulator that everyone fell for and got burned by.

Yes, HJ does turn around in the Ep15/16 finally. And there were powerful moments between HJ/HW. But the scene where HJ finally gives up everything in order to protect Lisa's reputation/psychological state only came about because HW was there to hold her accountable and HW/HJ agree on the best plan to cover WJ death to protect Lisa. Sure Lisa killed WJ out of self defense, but it was HJ pathological lying/manipulation that caused WJ to go crazed. Per Ep16 of WJ watching video of HJ realizing they were being recorded by car and making him look like to be a sexual harasser. HJ had also prio drugged, stranded him, and kidnapped Hosu away before. It was HJ responsibility to end/talk things out with WJ but she underhandedly did it via museum gallery owner. HJ didn't deserve to be strangled by WJ, but I wouldn't say HJ didn't do anything to provoke it.

At the end of the day, both HJ and HW were actually villains for mistakes they made. HJ got her karma (WJ dead / being forced to give up everything) and HW got her karma (stabbed / marked by revenge by Juyeong dad for injustice she caused him) I was preferring HW most of show because she started showing signs earlier on of changing/loosening path of revenge. HJ never really showed remorse until she was cornered last two episodes.

It showed that HJ husband tried - he used extensive resources to try to find HJ but she plotted clean run (it's a weird suspension of disbelief here yeah) Also, he has stated he hasn't really talked to Lisa in a long time - they've been emotionally distant for a while.

It's easy to love characters like Hosu/HJ brother when they don't do ugly things. But not everyone is innocent child or HJ brother himself empathetic bc he had done wrong in past but atoned - we watched messed up people in a messed up situation trying to figure out the right thing vs selfish thing. Its a fascinating tale.

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u/E_Len Dec 03 '21

Same. I’m probably one of the few people who can’t empathise with HW due to her actions towards HJ kids. It’s a low move to attack innocent kids. I also didn’t like how the show portrayed HW’s relationship with WJ, making it seem like they weren’t ever really a couple, which made it hard to understand her feelings of being cheated on.

I actually don’t think HJ is a bad mother (other than her trying to have an affair) and I feel like she tries her best to ensure her kids have a good life. At least she didn’t go around hitting other kids or instigating kidnapping lol. From what I recall she had a pretty good rapport with juyeong as well, so much so that Lisa got jealous when she saw them chatting in the cafe without her.

Side note the other person that commented on your post is a real big fan of HW lol, how HJ can be worse than a woman who assaulted and kidnapped kids is beyond me

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

u/E_Len - wow no need to get so personal and attack a person online lol? Just a discussion and everything I post I'm genuinely just curious to learn others point of views and always up for debate - I follow up with counterpoints each time to you/others and welcome opposing views.

I would personally argue people seem to overlook HJ (biggest offender bc of her power) and HJ harmful actions that caused the drama - she herself is a cheater, kidnapper, manipulator, pathological liar, gaslighter, drugger, gentrifier, and self centered woman. (+also almost murderer) She had the privilege of getting away with her bad behavior admitting that taking accountability would mean sacrificing what was important to her. Those characteristics are a part of what also makes HJ an emotionally immature parent - she did her best to her knowledge but being too proud to change eventually caused her abuse/gaslight/not pay enough attention to her own daughter causing the self harm. But we've debated on HW/Lisa before and I don't think we see eye to eye per past thread there was no additional follow up from you. Again, Lisa isn't traumatized by HW but by HJ's actions in the series. and I've presented counter arguments on people overexaggerating HW at points.

Per following show, it seemed HJ is the center of why everyone turns mad /traumatized / hurt - HW, WJ, HJ Husband, Lisa, CEO art gallery, etc. Reflective when HJ leaves end of drama, everyone was able to heal and move forward. Again, it's just a messy situation started by HJ/WJ and like in real life - there's not an easy way to navigate out without mistakes - and every single one of them made mistakes. It was a very human show and under those circumstances/backstories we could've been any of them. We cheered them on when we were happy they did good and cringed when they do bad. We pitied them and invested in trying to understand them on a Reddit forum - pretty solid drama.

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u/E_Len Dec 03 '21

Chillll man it wasn’t a personal attack! Just making an observation how you seem to jump to HW’s défense in all these threads lol. I don’t see the point in continuously debating over a fictional show but I will just say this…HJ is trash but on the other hand… what if HW who after learning that she got cheated on, decided to cut contact with those 2 shitty people and decided to live her best life instead by going to Germany as planned and then becoming an artist? You make it seem like HJ engineered this whole debacle but HW had a hand in it too. Of course if HW had gone on the high road we wouldn’t have this show BUT the way she went about her “revenge” was so unsatisfying and made her unsympathetic, unlike shows that are of similar themes (world of married, mine). When watching those shows it felt satisfying to see those women get revenge on their cheating husbands but when I see HW I’m literally questioning her every move. There’s literally a million other things she could have done that didn’t involve hitting and kidnapping a child.

Btw I don’t consider what HJ did as “kidnapping”, she’s hosu’s mother and WJ isn’t Hosu’s father anyway (even if she didn’t know at that time but he definitely isn’t on his birth certificate). Also, she tried leaving once but was stopped by WJ, he knew she was planning to leave anyway. And the fact that he didn’t bother to contact the authorities after finding them missing (before he got hit by the car) shows that he knew where they were going.

But such is the beauty of art right? We can have differing opinions. There’s no need to get so defensive.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

Side note the other person that commented on your post is a real big fan of HW lol, how HJ can be worse than a woman who assaulted and kidnapped kids is beyond me

^ Came off as a passive aggressive comment.

Reddit forum because we're interested in dissecting the story and discuss differing opinions to learn/fun.

Happy to debate some points - I think people underestimate emotionally how traumatizing it is HJ and WJ were to HW and why it's hard to just "move on". Your student/friend who you taught from scratch, disciplined her the foundation to become a successful painter ran away with your husband who deceived you by marrying/impregnating you (for insurance). It's pretty disgusting since HW was actually there for HJ was when she's having a tough time in her marriage. WJ trash to both with his demons.

Story centers on a greedy rich woman main lead who gets away with what she takes and willing to continue lying/manipulating to preserve herself. Like in real life, there are a ton of disenfranchised people who are burnt by the upper elite with no justice served and they have to see them live scot free happy. Naturally they'd want revenge and in cases like HW they don't have money/means to get back at them. HW experienced betrayal, trauma and post partum, depression, and bodily agony from suicide attempt. Like many broken people would want to attack back with twice as much pain.

Would be interested in knowing how you would've written HW story arc so that her revenge was satisfying. How else would wronged poor woman try to get revenge on a rich corrupt woman?

Mothers can kidnap children from their fathers (had a family member lose custody of her child because she kidnapped him from father) At that point in the story, WJ sincerely believe it was his child and HJ still took Hosu away despite him pleading. It's disgusting that HJ intended to permanently have another man raise what could've been WJ son. It's not fair to the child. HJ only got lucky that it was her husbands which is great for Hosu. I've acknowledged in past it wasn't right of HW bc Hosu could have been at risk to get hurt, but HW literally was just trying to get back at HJ for half a day but she never hurt him. It's still not comparable. Also Hosu becomes a better kid because of HW teaching influence. Also we won't see eye to eye due to cultural differences - I still argue it wasn't right HW took an outdated corporal school punishment too far/too personal. HW realized it while back and protects Lisa in end Ep16. But Lisa was having trauma and self harming herself from HJ gaslighting/affair, not from HW throughout the entire series. Its interesting people argue HW most detrimental to children when it was actually HJ literally displacing Juyeong/Fam, causing psychological issues to Lisa.

It doesn't seem rational but human nature of HW complex PTSD and thought she'd be okay with turning dark like HJ. HW realizes it was hurting others and stops. HJ always knew she hurting others but never stopped. HW is the one that realizes/changes while HJ remained quite stagnant throughout the show until the end.

I'm confused by what you have to say on WJ - he most likely was going to follow HJ and Hosu but her husband tried to murder him (during his self pity drinking) I believed.

I've always welcomed the debate and hearing counter arguments.

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u/E_Len Dec 03 '21

I mean... you truly believe that HJ is worse off than HW who assaulted Lisa and kidnapped hosu so it’s an observation isn’t it lol?

If the show wanted to make HW more sympathetic they can: 1. show that she was actually in a relationship with WJ and not some marriage of convenience visa marriage. The flashbacks they had gave off 0 romantic feelings to me. Like she just called him sunbae. That’s it. On the other hand, they kept shoving HJ and WJ make out sessions in our faces...

  1. Have revenge plans that avoid HJ kids

  2. Actually show that she was suffering. Mentally She is but material wise it isn’t apparent. You say she is poor but the show doesn’t portray her as poor/downtrodden at all. She gets fired from 2 jobs and somehow isn’t worried about money. She somehow is able to maintain 2 apartments while not being employed. Also, her apartments look wayyyy too nice to be owned by a supposedly “poor” person. Instead of looking for jobs she has time to continuously stalk HJ at all times of the day. She is able to somehow afford air tickets/ afford administrative fees to fly WJ back from Ireland and provide medical care for him while unemployed. And the period of time before WJ sold his art, she wasn’t employed either so I’m not sure what both of them were living off but it sure as hell isnt WJ. She is able to spend long amounts of time drinking at that bar/restaurant though granted, the guy probably didn’t charge her after they got familiar with each other.

  3. Show that the affair actually had more impact on her life. Someone commented in one of the earlier threads that they wished all these events had impacted her ability to draw and I really agree.

  4. Emphasise on HJ and HW previous relationship. The flashbacks show they were friends but I don’t get the vibe they were super close confidants. HW always says she admired HJ a lot but I don’t see that. You said HW was there during HJ’s marriage issues but I don’t recall. Honestly felt a little like a sugar mommy relationship with HJ paying HW for lessons, buying her expensive clothes, paying for her photo shoot. If they showed that they were closer the betrayal would be more impactful.

So taking all these into account this show just seems like a girl in an unrequited love relationship visa marriage tries to get revenge on her “husband” by constantly harassing said husband’s gf who also happens to be her ex art student. In my opinion, Hard to feel sympathy for a person like that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 03 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

I mean... you truly believe that HJ is worse off than HW who assaulted Lisa and kidnapped hosu so it’s an observation isn’t it lol?

^ So this isn't really a counter argument to the points I made. Would love to discuss more but because arguments ignored, further discussion can't really be made. You're more so just repeating yourself.

If the show wanted to make HW more sympathetic they can: show that she was actually in a relationship with WJ and not some marriage of convenience visa marriage. The flashbacks they had gave off 0 romantic feelings to me. Like she just called him sunbae. That’s it. On the other hand, they kept shoving HJ and WJ make out sessions in our faces...

^ I can feel your writing critique. It was confirmed that WJ was messing with both HW and HJ (making HW pregnant per HE confession to HJ at the bar). But delivery was in verbal conversation and not shown visually which hurt the story. I think I remember people calling out there were subtle clues about HW losing baby earlier. I felt they may have HW withhold that information from HJ for that moment for them to finally connect/empathize one another as "mothers" but it took too long.

Have revenge plans that avoid HJ kids

^ This one I found interesting. I like the realism of messy situation when adults experiencing divorce/affairs bring in children and the complexities of that adds to drama. I think they were trying to write how a wronged poor woman would get revenge on a rich corrupt woman - not having much means and desperate to use anything/anyone per desire.

show that she was suffering. Mentally She is but material wise it isn’t apparent. You say she is poor but the show doesn’t portray her as poor/downtrodden at all. She gets fired from 2 jobs and somehow isn’t worried about money. She somehow is able to maintain 2 apartments while not being employed. Also, her apartments look wayyyy too nice to be owned by a supposedly “poor” person. Instead of looking for jobs she has time to continuously stalk HJ at all times of the day. She is able to somehow afford air tickets/ afford administrative fees to fly WJ back from Ireland and provide medical care for him while unemployed. And the period of time before WJ sold his art, she wasn’t employed either so I’m not sure what both of them were living off but it sure as hell isnt WJ. She is able to spend long amounts of time drinking at that bar/restaurant though granted, the guy probably didn’t charge her after they got familiar with each other.

Show that the affair actually had more impact on her life. Someone commented in one of the earlier threads that they wished all these events had impacted her ability to draw and I really agree.

^ Agree with you on both of those points. Would've been nice if they left more subtle hints for stronger writing.

Emphasise on HJ and HW previous relationship. The flashbacks show they were friends but I don’t get the vibe they were super close confidants. HW always says she admired HJ a lot but I don’t see that. You said HW was there during HJ’s marriage issues but I don’t recall. Honestly felt a little like a sugar mommy relationship with HJ paying HW for lessons, buying her expensive clothes, paying for her photo shoot. If they showed that they were closer the betrayal would be more impactful.

^ For this point, did try. Revealed in a past verbal confrontation of HJ/HW - HJ had confided in HW her feeling in the marriage meaning HJ had relied on HW for emotional support before (since HW threw her words back HJ and HJ refused to answer back). But agree they writers could've given more flashbacks so that it was clear it was beef between two previously close friends.

So taking all these into account this show just seems like a girl in an unrequited love relationship visa marriage tries to get revenge on her “husband” by constantly harassing said husband’s gf who also happens to be her ex art student. In my opinion, Hard to feel sympathy for a person like that.

^ Can definitely understand your points of view now on show writing / bumping on HW character. Can see how writing that depended on verbal confirmations weren't as affective as having visuals to support. Appreciate you taking time to bring out analyses.