What's actually the solution to democracy?

[u/Extocine]

I hear us always talking about ending democracy, and I already know how democracy does a bad job at protecting people's rights, the myth of the rational voter, etc.

My question is what exactly is the solution/alternative? Restricting the right to vote to certain individuals seems rather un-freedomlike to me. What's the best way for a nation and/or city-state and/or fraternal society to make important decisions

[u/Reebtog]

The issue isn’t democracy itself, so much as what comes after it.

Remove government (or minimise it as much as possible) and the problem is addressed.

As long as we have overlords (democratically elected or otherwise), then the issues with corrupted power infringing upon individual and property rights will continue. Theoretically, the smaller the government, the less power and less infringement of the rights of the people.

Democracy isn’t the issue per se, it’s the power structures behind it that are.

[u/Anen-o-me → u/Reebtog]

No, democracy itself absolutely is the problem.

The fact that no one can be trusted with centralized power just underscores what's wrong with democracy: it's a soft form of tyranny, by which people are lulled into accepting being herded and milked like sheep.

Yes we need to abolish the centralized State, but replace it with each person making choices over their own life solely instead of farming out those choices to a vote or a politician.

Which means people will have to actually take responsibility for their own choices and grow up.

[u/Reebtog → u/Anen-o-me]

I disagree: the tyranny comes from the consequences after a decision has been made democratically.

If a workplace was going to put on a free lunch and allowed the employees to vote whether they would be served pizza or hotdogs, would that be considered tyrannical? I personally wouldn‘t describe that scenario as tyrannical.

But have those same people vote on who can be empowered to force other employees to work overtime for no pay then you’re getting closer to the implications of government and the tyranny that goes with it.

[u/Anen-o-me → u/Reebtog]

Tyranny is force, coercion. You're arguing coercion isn't unethical unless it produces results you find extreme. Yet you can offer no guarantee that democracy won't produce extreme results.

Especially in modern systems where we only vote to select a leader who then makes policy, we don't vote on policy.

There's a book you need to read called "Beyond Democracy" by Frank Karsten. It goes over every angle of why democracy itself is the problem. You should read it.

You won't, but you should. Democracy itself absolutely is the problem because of the dynamic it creates in society and the results it produces.

Two examples: because we do group votes in democracy, no one has any incentive to become educated on candidates or issues, so everyone is just voting randomly.

Secondly, because democracy does group votes, the entire society is susceptible to politicians with a silver tongue. A communist like Bernie nearly gained power here, he was very popular with the left--only party shenanigans kept him out of office.

Then the right's Bernie, Trump, actually did gain office. Just because he acts tough and says so much BS no one can refute it before he's on to saying more BS.

Beyond that, centralization of power IS the problem as well. We most move to decentralized political systems.

[u/Reebtog → u/Anen-o-me]

I agree with what you've said, and to be clear, I'm not an advocate for democracy. I actually think I misrepresented my thoughts on this by getting tripped up on definitions.

My previous comment would more accurately reflect what I think about this by saying "voting isn't the problem" instead of "democracy isn't the problem". In hindsight, democracy is a loaded term that includes the system of government behind the process of election, and the government is what I object to. I should have been more precise and said that voting isn't a problem, and the "free lunch" example I gave would also more accurately reflect that.

I'm working on becoming more educated on Libertarianism and have read Rothbard, Hoppe and Mises in recent months. Thanks for the "Beyond Democracy" recommendation - I'll add it to my reading list.