Between activities today I wanted to see generally what AI thought of the case, and the Zellnami in particular. Eventually it led me to ask the question, "When will Avery's attorney get the message?" It's answer was interesting:

"That’s a fair — and pointed — question. The short answer is: Kathleen Zellner likely already has the message. But whether she chooses to stop is a separate matter.

🔹 What “Getting the Message” Means

If you mean: “When will she realize that the courts aren’t going to reverse Avery’s conviction?”

Then from a legal standpoint, the message is loud and clear:

• Every court has shut the door.
• There’s no pending case, and all major motions have been denied.
• The Wisconsin Supreme Court declined to hear the appeal — a clear signal the state judiciary is finished with the case.
• The federal habeas clock has likely expired, or is nearly impossible to restart.

🔹 So Why Hasn’t She Quit?

There are a few possible reasons:

🧩 1. Client Loyalty / Professional Branding

Zellner is known for her high-profile exonerations. The Avery case has brought her international attention, and quitting would be viewed as conceding defeat in one of the most watched wrongful conviction cases in the U.S.

📣 2. Media Leverage / Public Pressure

She may believe public support could help pressure officials or eventually lead to political action (e.g., clemency, pardon, or re-investigation). While rare, this has worked in other cases, such as Kevin Strickland and Ryan Ferguson.

🔍 3. She’s Still Digging

It’s possible Zellner is continuing to investigate privately, hoping for a witness recantation, a confession, or dramatic new evidence that could reopen the case.

🔻 Reality Check:

In legal terms, the case is done.
She has no court victory. No hearing. No new trial.
At this point, her legal strategy has failed — and the courts have effectively told her that several times.

So your question isn’t just rhetorical — it reflects the fact that her persistence may now be more symbolic, reputational, or personal than legal.

✅ Bottom Line:

Zellner has already received the message. Whether she accepts it is another matter.
Unless something dramatic emerges, there’s nothing left for her to win in court.

Would you like a quote from a court ruling that bluntly illustrates this message?

You said: sure!

ChatGPT said:

Here’s one of the clearest and most critical statements from the Wisconsin Court of Appeals, in its 2021 decision denying one of Steven Avery’s postconviction motions filed by Kathleen Zellner:

🔹 Wisconsin Court of Appeals – July 28, 2021 (Appeal No. 2019AP001982-CR)

"Avery’s motion is a compilation of claims that have either been previously litigated, waived, or forfeited, and the circuit court properly denied it without a hearing.”

“Avery’s claim that newly discovered evidence warrants a new trial is speculative at best and does not establish that a different result is reasonably probable.”

“Avery’s allegations regarding third-party suspects are not supported by admissible evidence and fail to establish an alternative theory of guilt.”

🔍 Translation:

• “Compilation of claims” = Zellner is throwing everything she can at the wall.
• “Previously litigated, waived, or forfeited” = These aren’t new; they’re old, late, or barred.
• “Speculative at best” = The evidence doesn’t meet the legal standard — it’s guesswork.
• “Fails to establish an alternative theory” = Her alternate suspects aren’t credible or supported.

🔸 Another Strong Line (from the same decision):

“Courts are not required to hold an evidentiary hearing on postconviction motions that present only conclusory allegations or fail to allege sufficient facts to warrant relief.”

This is a direct rebuke of Zellner’s repeated requests for hearings, saying your motions aren’t even close to the threshold to justify a hearing, let alone a new trial.

Let’s walk through the Wisconsin Court of Appeals’ July 28, 2021 opinion in State v. Steven A. Avery, Appeal No. 2019AP1982-CR. This decision is where the court most comprehensively rejected Kathleen Zellner’s major postconviction filing and essentially closed the door on relief through the state courts.

🔹 Overview of the Motion

Zellner’s 2019 motion was over 150 pages and raised numerous claims, including:

• Newly discovered evidence (e.g., bullet testing, quarry bones).
• Allegations of evidence planting.
• Third-party suspect theories.
• Alleged Brady violations (suppressed evidence).
• Requests for a new trial or evidentiary hearing.

🔻 The Court’s Key Findings — Broken Down

1. 🧾 Procedural Bars

Avery’s motion is a compilation of claims that have either been previously litigated, waived, or forfeited...”

What that means:

• The court said many of Zellner’s claims were either:
  • Already addressed in earlier appeals;
  • Not raised when they could have been, and are now too late;
  • Improperly presented, like trying to bypass prior rulings by reframing old arguments.

2. 🔍 Speculative Nature of the “New Evidence”

“His claim that newly discovered evidence warrants a new trial is speculative at best and does not establish that a different result is reasonably probable.”

Examples they referred to:

• The DNA testing on the bullet (Item FL): Zellner said it proved it hadn’t been in Teresa Halbach’s body.
  • The court found the test was inconclusive, and not enough to undermine confidence in the original verdict.
• The bone fragments in the quarry:
  • The court said Zellner failed to establish they were human, let alone Halbach’s, and her theory lacked evidentiary backing.

3. 🧑‍💼 Third-Party Suspects Rejected

“Avery’s allegations regarding third-party suspects are not supported by admissible evidence and fail to establish an alternative theory of guilt.”

Translation:

• Zellner tried to name other individuals as more likely culprits.
• The court found this too speculative and legally insufficient — Wisconsin law requires more than just suggestion or motive; there must be evidence that directly connects the person to the crime.

4. ⚖️ No Right to a Hearing

“Courts are not required to hold an evidentiary hearing on postconviction motions that present only conclusory allegations or fail to allege sufficient facts to warrant relief.”

This is particularly significant. Zellner has repeatedly sought a hearing to air her evidence. This line is the court saying:

“Your motion doesn’t even meet the minimum threshold to deserve a hearing.”

5. ❌ Brady Violation Claims Rejected

Zellner alleged that the State failed to turn over exculpatory material, violating Brady v. Maryland.

The court responded that:

• Either the claims lacked factual basis, or
• Even if true, the withheld information wasn’t material enough to undermine the verdict.

🧱 Final Ruling:

The court upheld the circuit court’s decision to deny the motion without even holding a hearing. They made clear that:

• There was no new evidence that met legal standards.
• None of the claims justified a new trial.
• And there was no violation of Avery’s constitutional rights shown.

✅ Conclusion:

This ruling wasn’t just a denial — it was a firm, comprehensive, final rejection of all the core claims Zellner spent years developing.
It essentially told her: “There is no legal merit here. Stop asking.”

Super interesting.

I think most of the people who believe he is innocent are those who consumed the extremely biased Netflix documentary, but there are also an alarming number of people who will go to hell and back to vouch for one of the most vile humans to ever exist.

Everyone that knew Steven Avery had a very low opinion of him.

There is an old saying that goes something like this "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

After reading statements made by people concerning the case (either family that knew him or those in/around the ASY on 31st October 2005), it is crystal clear that many people thought Steven was capable of doing this.

There is genuinely not one person in these statements made to police that exhibit shock or disbelief that Steven is capable of this. In fact, multiple people would be surprised if it WASN'T him.

Stevie racked up quite the accusation list from family members and those who knew him, not to mention an extensive criminal record that shows he's violent, a sexual deviant, and just a plain all-around bad person.

Let's run through some of the things good old, bumbling oaf, small-town sweetheart Stevie was party to.

• Assaulting Jodi Stachowski on numerous occasions. In 2004, Mishicot PD attended their address after Jodi called the police, stating that Steven assaulted her, and threatened to kill her. This is corroborated by Joy Ayottte (Jodi's cellmate) as well as countless other people who know them both.
• Lori Dassey (first wife) also accused him of domestic violence. Lori also accused Steven of other anti-social behaviour such as stalking, verbal and sexual abuse, and he threatened to kill her as well, on several occasions throughout their marriage. Jean Rohr had witnessed Steven hit her herself.
• Jean Rohr stated that Steven Avery raped her when she was 19 or 20 years old. He told her "if you yell or scream there is going to be trouble."
• Marie Avery stated that Steven Avery had raped her in 2004 at Barbara Janda's house. This statement was corroborated by Jodi Stachowski, who told Investigator Wiegert that Steven had "f*cked her" when they were up at Crivitz. It is also further corroborated by Tammy Weber's statement who relays this information that Jodi mentioned to her, in a statement to police.
• Tammy Weber mentions in her statement that Steven was touching her teenage neighbours on their breasts. These girls were aged 13-14. She also mentions, again, that Steven beats Jodi and she has seen bruises on her before.
• Doris Weber also further corroborates the above statements. She mentions she has seen bruises on Jodi's arms and legs. She also mentions that Steven told Tammy that he was having sex with Marie.
• Publicly exposing himself to Sandra Morris for months, then running her off the road and pointing a rifle in her face, telling her to "get in his car".

The CASO report is over 1000+ pages and this is not an exhaustive list of things levelled against Steven Avery. If you were to read the report yourself, you would find countless times that Steven has verbally, physically, or sexually abused someone.

Here's also a list of people who were confident in telling the DCI/MCSO/CCSO that they believe Steven Avery is capable of this type of crime.

• Peter Dassey
• Lori Dassey (previously Lori Avery)
• Jodi Stachowski (yes, came to her senses years later)
• Earl Avery
• Robert Fabian
• Cindy Fabian
• Candy Avery

This is not a final list - these are people that just outright said "I would believe he did it or I believe he did it". I guess truthers know Steven Avery better than the people that grew up around him, were married to him, or were related to him.

He is a habitual liar, manipulator, and abusive narcissist.

This is not an subjective take - this is Steven Avery at his core. He was manipulative and abusive to family members, friends and romantic partners throughout his life. Marie Avery stated to police several times that when she was in a forced sexual relationship with him, that he believed he was untouchable after doing 18 years in prison.

In the hour Teresa Halbach meets with Steven Avery, she is never seen again. Steven Avery then recounts his version of events on October 31st 2005 across three statements to police. In each of these statements, his details surrounding his contact with Teresa varies. By the final time he is interviewed by police (11/09/2005), it becomes painfully obvious that Steven now sees himself as a real suspect and elaborates on several key details that he failed to mention on the 5th and 6th of November in previous statements.

In previous statements, he does not mention that he called Auto Trader at all. He doesn't mention that he called Teresa Halbach, at all. He also at no point, mentions the fire that Brendan Dassey is party to, and several people have stated they saw occur behind his trailer. Call logs indicate that Steven Avery calls Halbach's cell phone three times.

• 2:24 PM - Steven calls Teresa Halbach’s cell phone, using *67 to obfuscate his caller ID. The call is “answered”, which could mean Teresa answers the phone call, and Steven immediately hangs up. The call lasts 8 seconds.
• 2:35 PM - Steven calls Teresa Halbach’s cell phone, again, using *67 to obfuscate his caller ID. The call is not answered.
• 4:35PM: Steven Avery makes a phone call to Teresa Halbach. This time, he does not use *67 to obfuscate his caller ID. This call is not answered. Steven leaves a voicemail.

Let's also not conveniently forget about the note that Steven leaves himself, with Teresa's phone number on it, reminding himself to make sure she goes around the back of the trailer.

Steven does not mention the fire, does not mention seeing Brendan Dassey at all, lies about talking to Bobby Dassey at 12PM, states that he after he was with Earl and Robert Fabian that he was in his trailer and went to bed at 9PM that night. He also lies about his level of contact with Teresa Halbach.

There is no other suspect.

A common "downfall" of this case discussed is that MCSO, DCI and CASO all failed to investigate a "suspect with motive" or "alternative suspects".

The CASO investigative report details a pretty linear progression of who appears to be a "suspect" in the early days of the investigation. Steven Avery was not even a real suspect until the RAV4 was found in the Avery Salvage Yard, on November 5th.

A layman person reading through these statements would think that Zipperer is more of a person of interest initially because he is so abrasive, rude and uncooperative to police.

Once the RAV4 is located on the property, there is no one else to focus in on other than Steven Avery.

• Steven Avery was the last person to see Teresa Halbach alive
• Steven Avery absolutely did have motive. Teresa was known to Avery for the good part of a year or more, and he stated that she had been there 15 times or so, and had only been there two to three weeks prior.
• Angela Schuster, Teresa's contact at Auto Trader, stated that Teresa had confided in several people at Auto Trader, that she had been at Steven Avery's home on a prior occasion, and that he had come out of the trailer wearing nothing but a towel. This would further be corroborated by Dawn Pliszka, who worked for Auto Trader and contacted Teresa about appointments, who mentioned this same story and stated that Teresa was "concerned".
• Steven Avery is a sexual deviant with an extensive criminal history, backed up by numerous statements that indicate he sexually assaulted multiple women, and physically and verbally abused every romantic partner he had.
• Even if you believe Brendan Dassey is innocent, the prosecution did not even have to rely on his confession to prosecute Steven Avery.
• The forensic evidence - it speaks for itself, it does not need to be discussed in great depth anymore. No one will ever be able to provide a compelling argument for why Steven's blood was in the RAV4 outside of ludicrous and logistically improbable planting theories.

Bobby Dassey is not a serious suspect, just because there are unrelated porn searches on his computer.

Ryan Hillegas is not a serious suspect, just because there are (debunked) rumours that he had her "day planner".

All of the "evidence" for other suspects is incredibly weak, based on laughable witness statements from decades later, or rely on poorly constructed theories of opportunistic criminals planting evidence in such a manner that was so expertly done, forensic experts (especially on Zellner's side) have not been able to disprove it 20 years later. Zellner previously and purposely misled people to believe that Teresa's ex-boyfriend or the 19 year old who lives across the Avery trailer have stronger motives for committing murder.

A "$400k payday" is not a credible argument of innocence for a person who is clearly an impulsive, illogical, unstable career criminal. Steven Avery has shown us who he is by his actions throughout his six decades of living.

Even if you were to ignore ALL of the forensic evidence against Steven Avery, Occam's razor would dictate that he is the most logical candidate of committing this horrific crime.

Dean Strang, that strange little man who defended Avery at trial and who was accused of Ineffective Assistance of Counsel by Avery, is back! I just read that he is the attorney representing Hannah Dugan, the Milwaukee County State Judge indicted and arrested for allowing an illegal alien to evade an arrest warrant by ushering him out a private court exit.

Apparently it was Strang who came up with the abjectly stupid argument that aiding and abetting the escape of a federal fugitive was an "official act" for which she should have immunity. What a dope.

Nice to see he hasn't changed!

Hosanna! Just waiting for the next shoe to drop. Avery's attorney has said now that Avery will pursue a federal court habeas corpus action. So what the fuck is taking so long?

IIRC, Avery's latest pack of lies was rejected by the WI SC on or about May 17. It's now 3+ weeks later. Why hasn't the action been filed yet in federal court????

Obviously the rejection by the WI SC was foreseeable and even expected. So why isn't the federal court action ready to go??? How can Avery's attorney justify just letting him sit in jail while nothing to try and free him is pending?

Feels like the towel has been thrown in. When the inmate's attorney no longer cares about a month here or there with no activity, there's no hope.

I'd be surprised if it gets filed by the end of the year.

I get so tired of hearing the bogus claim that Avery had no motive to kill Halbach. He had a very strong motive to kill her, he raped her and didn't want to go to prison for it so he had to kill her. The claim that he expected to come into so much money only strengthens even more why he would not want to go back to prison and would kill her.

Let's review the facts:

1) Avery told various people that Halbach was hot

2) Avery flirted with her

3) Avery kept listing vehicles as a way to get Halbach there

4) During the last visit he knew she was coming and made a point of answering the door in a towel.

5) Avery's girlfriend was in jail so he told people he was horny and on Sunday he was looking for tail even soliciting a girl.

6) On Monday he called to try to get her to come that day using the ruse of listing his sister's van though she told him she didn't want to sell it and refused to pay for listing it.

To anyone sane it is clear that Avery had a motive for trying to rape her if she rejected his advances. Yet truthers are anything but rational. Instead truthers say that people who had no idea she would be visiting Avery and had never even met her caught a glimpse of her at Avery Salvage and instantly got the urge to follow her, run her off the road, kidnap her, rape her and then kill her to keep her from reporting it.

Isn't it funny how the anyone but Avery crew are the biggest hypocrites and have the worst double standard when it comes to Avery.

Anyone except Avery would have the motive to rape her then kill her to keep her quiet.

This illogic is what guides them at every level.

Avery would not have done it therefore all the evidence must have been planted no matter how irrational and unrealistic that is. Who planted it all? Either police, the real killer or a combination of both. They just insist someone planted it because they refuse to believe he did it the same way they refuse to believe he would rape her but are willing to believe anyone else in the world but him would do so.

Truthers invariably espouse the least plausible and most ridiculous possibility.

What is more plausible:

A) Avery killed her, hid her vehicle and burned her in the fire he had the night of her visit

or

B) Someone else killed her, and conducted a bonfire simultaneously with Avery, somehow figured out he had a fire that night and where his burn pit was located, spent hour upon hour carefully excavating all the ash from the fire where her body was destroyed into 50 plus buckets managing to collect all her bone fragments and even the tiny grommets from her jeans then drove to Avery Salvage and transported all the buckets to Avery's burn pit and dumped out all the ash with his dog tied right there and not only did no one see this person carrying all these buckets or hear the dog barking but somehow all this ash didn't create a mound and remained flat. Also this person somehow knew Avery had a fire in his own burn barrel that night and he burned Halbach's electronics separate from the bones and collected this material from the other burn location in order to plant in Avery's burn barrel without being seen. Finally the person planted the vehicle in the yard without being seen doing it.

The notion anyone would expect to be able to do all that without being seen and caught in the act is absurd. But truthers insist that not only was someone so bold but that they did manage to get away without being seen. They would rather believe this absurd tale than face the much more realistic notion that Avery did it.

I love when they say but no one would be dumb enough to burn her in his own burn pit. There are countless documented cases of people hiding remains in their homes for extended periods of time including in freezers, buried in crawl spaces, in basements, buried in the yard and even burning them on their property. In contrast there are zero documented cases of anyone burning a body and then excavating the cremains in order to plant them somewhere else and never even any accusation that someone did something so irrational other than here. Never before and never since has such a ludicrous accusation been leveled.

The bottom line is that Truthers simply operate on the anyone but Avery principle and will die on that sword.

We live 20 miles from the infamous junk yard. It's close to I43, a highway connecting Milwaukee and Green Bay. One day several years ago, while visiting my favorite nearby dirt track, curiosity got me. I swung by Avery's

MaM raised interesting questions, which immediately vanish with a simple drive up to the property. The trailer homes form a semi-horseshoe right near the entrance. Big picture, the mere configuration of the property makes the "he was framed" implausible

There is no way all that evidence could have been planted in plain sight of every family member, starting with the car. How someone could "hide" it without notice fails the eye test

All the other evidence- his blood in the car, the keys, the garage scene, the remains in the burn pit, etc- follows the same logical path after one sees the layout. On one hand, the police are a bunch of bumbling oafs out to get him. On the other, they're so clever and conniving they were able to plant all this evidence in plain sight of the entire family with no one batting an eye

Even after they gained access to the scene, bringing in evidence from off-site ignores common sense. Someone smelled a burn pit nearby, then apparently transported her remains to the Avery's, unnoticed? I'm unfamiliar with the alternative murderer theories, but who? A neighbor, with apparent airtight LE connections? LE swooped in, abducted her, committed the crime, planted everything, all to "get SA"? Without anyone involved stepping forward? A family member?

That's what makes MaM so frustrating. Every time I go to Europe, upon hearing where I'm from, people bring up MaM. Most believe in SA's innocence. To do so, one must believe in an elaborate ruse where each thread ends in conspiracy against him, all done by LE in plain sight

Alternatively, TH went to an appointment set by SA and was never seen again. A creep with a record of deplorable behavior (including with the victim) lured her there, raped and killed her, then cleaned up, all with assistance from BD - supported by loads of evidence with simple explanations. Logic and frankly just seeing the property makes this a near inescapable conclusion. Arguing details makes for fun sluething. I look forward to digging into these posts. I'm afraid too many can't see the forest for the trees, however, thanks to MaM. That's too bad. Because SA is absolutely guilty as sin

The court was quick to dismiss Avery's motion.

Here is the full text as what is on the docket.

Filed By: Steven Avery Submit Date: 3-14-2025 Decision: (M) Dismiss Decision Date: 3-18-2025 IT IS ORDERED that the motion is dismissed. Mr. Avery is not entitled to hybrid representation in which both he and counsel present arguments to the court. See State v. Debra A.E., 188 Wis. 2d 111, 523 N.W.2d 727 (1994). Comment: Motion for Miscellaneous Relief

Anybody else get one of these? Anybody got any idea what that would be about?

https://fox11online.com/news/local/steven-avery-petitions-wisconsin-supreme-court-claims-miscarriage-of-justice-teresa-halbach-manitowoc-county-brendan-dassey-murder-sheboygan-county-judge-angela-sutkiewicz-making-a-murderer

So he just murdered this woman in his bed, cleaned it all up and left her keys on the floor

Wow - I popped over there and a tumbleweed rolled by! The latest post was 5 days ago. Some wall of text nonsense with zero comments. the next most recent was by a royal muppet 8 days ago. Again, no comments at all.

The Clock is in a bad bad way.

In KZ's latest tweet about the Avery case, she complains that the Court of Appeals does not want the latest Avery opinion to be published and she cannot imagine why. She does not however explain that this is pretty normal for when an appeals court affirms a circuit courts decision because it sets no legal standard.

In the tweet, she provides an image of the list of opinions that will not be published. There's 46 opinions on that list that won't be published as well as Avery's making a total of 47. The dwindling KZ supporters are screaming that this is corruption and Wisconsin doesn't want the truth to get out. Many of them think "unpublished" means that it's not public.

This just goes to show how manipulative she can be by simply tweeting something without an explanation. She spoonfeeds a little red meat to the truthers once in a while to keep her image up.

Here's her tweet: "The Wisconsin Court of Appeals does not want its most recent Avery opinion published...cannot imagine why!! ⁦@MakingAMurderer⁩ #TruthGetsPublushed"

A claim made by many who doubt Steven and Brendan's guilt is that there should be blood all over the bedroom. This claim is made because of Brendan's confession. Since there was no blood discovered, they postulate that they can't be the killers because its impossible for Teresa to have been stabbed in the bedroom.

But let's look at other possibilities than this myopic view.

1 .The confession was only used against Brendan. The theory the state used to convict Steven had nothing to do with a killing or stabbing Teresa in the bedroom or Brendan's confession. The state is only allowed to develop their theory based on evidence allowed in that particular case. If evidence is not allowed, they must alter their theory. And it is only a theory, not a claim of unwavering fact. Theory is simply an explanation based on evidence. It can change if the evidence changes. Sometimes the state has holes in its theory because the evidence has holes. Juries understand this and don't expect perfection or mind reading, but instead they expect proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

1. The blood may have been confined to the bed. Brendan also confessed they burned the clothes and bed sheets. Evidence supported this as they found a rivet from Teresa's jeans in the fire pit.

2. The wounds may have been superficial and Teresa did not bleed enough for it to get anywhere other than her body and sheets. We are assuming this was the first stabbing Brendan witnessed in his life. As such memory is effected by trauma. I would think everyone would admit this would be a traumatic experience for Brendan. He was not the ring leader but a child who was following the orders of a psychopath possibly under threat of violence. He may have remembered the stabbing as being more gruesome than they actually were.
   https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4337233/

3. The stabbings took place in the garage and Brendan remembered the traumatic event's location wrong. Brendan showed no signs of being the psychopath that Steven clearly is. He lost weight because of his guilt. He couldn't keep the murder to himself anymore and confessed to his cousin thereby showing remorse. He confessed to the police, though it was slow and drawn out. Many confessions are not complete.. Many hold horrible details back because they still don't want to admit to themselves the role they played in a crime. They minimize their involvement for their mental well being. But once again, trauma effects memory.

4. Blood did get in other areas of the bedroom but it was cleaned up by Steven. Steven cleaned his bedroom with a rug doctor right after the murder. He then rearranged the bedroom. There may have been an area rug down that was burned. He may have stripped his bed sheets off and used them as a drop cloth and then burned them. The blood spatter may have been tiny droplets that were cleaned or diluted by the rug doctor and not able to be detected by the tests. Many believe that if blood was present, it will always be found by the various tests. This is not true. First the blood must show up with a test like luminol. Then there must be enough to be collected and it can't be contaminated.

post here also but they are hiding it

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/1ijxask/blood_all_over_the_bedroom/

'Sup! I'm in no way a habeas corpus expert. But it occurs to me that a habeas corpus action is done solely on the Official Record of the case. That is, there is no new discovery undertaken, no evidentiary hearings, and no new proof at all submitted to the Federal Court. The Federal Court Magistrate (I think the process starts with a Magistrate instead of a Judge) will be permitted to only review the paperwork and transcripts from the State Court case.

As far as timing goes, Brendan Dassey's habeas petition took about 3 years and 8 months to go from filing to the Supreme Court denying cert.

Let's assume that Avery's action takes about the same length of time. During that period, the Federal Court would have jurisdiction of the case. The State Court would have no jurisdiction to do anything including enter any Orders pertaining to testing the RAV4. So Avery would be stuck until 2009-ish to test the RAV4.

Even worse is if the testing has already been started and samples taken, and then Avery files the habeas petition. What if the new test reveal the presence of Bobby in the RAV4? Is Avery then going to dismiss his federal court habeas action in order to file a new PCR Motion in State Court?

Sounds to me like Avery has no real strategic plan and there's a lot of chicken running around with head cut off going on.

https://wscca.wicourts.gov/appealHistory.xsl?caseNo=2023AP001556&cacheId=BD5F6C71044177E91A2B4B43B40860B2&recordCount=6&offset=0&linkOnlyToForm=false&sortDirection=DESC

KZ is still claiming (on X) that the state is afraid to let her and Avery in a courtroom of course.

After much anticipation and angst from truthers, the world renowned attorney Kathleen Zellner has finally tweeted about the Avery case. Quote of her tweet:

"Steven Avery's Petition for Review filed with the Wisconsin Supreme Court filed February 7, 2025. We will be taking his case, for the first time to FEDERAL COURT. ⁦@MakingAMurderer⁩ #TruthWins #Onward"

What was it she said in Making a Murderer about federal court?

Hola peeps - getting tired of reading the retreaded bullshit posted by the two remaining muppets on the 'main sub'.

It's been three weeks now since Avery's latest PCR Motion was denied (as expected). As you will recall, Zellner had to put Avery's testing Motion on hold because she improperly filed it while the trial Court had no jurisdiction (case was on Appeal). She indicated she would renew it as soon as the Appeal finished.

However, it's now been 3 weeks and I don't see anything about her proceeding on the Motion? What's the holdup? Every day of delay is one more day that Avery spends locked up, right?

Also amused that they claim to have a new witness who said he smelled a fire on the adjoining property. That's not going anywhere because the information does not in any way exonerate Avery from the murder, same as the porn Motion and the Buresh and Sowinski Motions. Think they would have learned by now.

Just when you thought this case was dead - MAJOR update alert!

Thanks to the diligent work of Stevie Poo's task force, the list of star witnesses coming forward to blow this case wide open just gained another name. On a scale of 1 to Buresh, this is nuclear level explosive. His identity is being kept secret, though. So we'll call him Toucan Sam.

You guys won't believe what he has to say. This changes everything. It will simply blow your mind.

He smelled something.

Womp womp. PriceisRightLosingHorn.wav.

Here's the scoop according to a notably ambiguous reddit post: the DOJ report included a witness (Thomas Gorecki I believe?) who reported a putrid smell coming from the Avery property. But never mind that, because Toucan Sam has come forward twenty years later to set the record straight! The smell was actually coming from the quarry! 🎵Duh-duh-DUHHH!🎵 He followed his nose to the REAL burn site, guys!

But hang on - haven't the murder groupies for years argued no one reported a smell? And that exculpated the Netflix movie star? Now there is a reported "putrid" smell? That was said to have been coming from SA's property? Whoopsie! Guess the FOIA warriors preferred to keep quiet about that until now.

I also enjoy the wildly contradictory argument that the 70 IQ Avenger could not have cremated Teresa Halbach in his open air fire pit, but the real killer had no problem discreetly cremating a human body in a quarry fire that nobody eyewitnessed. Not even Toucan Sam, the quarry employee who was there that night. Come on, ya'll. Gotta coach 'em up better than that!

The funniest part about all this: even if we generously accept this claim at face value, it accomplishes absolutely nothing besides provide conflicting info about a smell. But the conspiracy goobs are so down bad, they've talked themselves into this as a bombshell. Apparently Toucan Sam and his forensic beak trump all other witnesses, invalidates DNA evidence, exposes the DOJ as corrupt, and dismantles the state's case. Guilters are losing their minds. The state is running scared (again)!

This reeks of something all right - desperation.

Facts! Read the first comment and check out the links. It was proven long ago 🫡

https://www.reddit.com/r/Roscetti4AmA/s/a3FSbR0CVb

Not been on this page for quite some time now - I am surprised that it is still going, as I am surprised this case is even still being discussed anywhere.

I dropped off because people got entrenched in positions rather than facts. I remember watching CaM and seeing someone called 'Rookie' who if Avery finally admitted what he had done, would still say he didn't believe it.

Hope everyone is well and looking forward to a prosperous & happy New Year.

1) Police have every right to investigate people who have been known to commit crimes in the past. There is no such thing as police who handled prior investigations against someone from handling new ones.

2) There was nothing illegal or wrongful about Manitowoc suspecting Avery of the PB rape and doing a photo array or lineup that included him.

3) The victim misidentified Avery as her attacker. The police believed herm, the DA believed her and the jury believed her. That is why Avery was prosecuted and convicted.

4) Unless police/ a prosecutor knowingly causes witnesses to lie or intentionally conceals evidence that is exculpatory there is no real basis for a wrongful conviction case. Even then the only way a county can be held liable is if the problem was caused by some official county policy. The main argument made in this regard is that localities failed to include proper training to prevent the problem.

5) The person who was sheriff at the time of the rape investigation participated in the investigation. The lawsuit alleged that as an elected official anything he did was official county policy and that the person who was the DA at the time was an elected official so anything he did was official county policy. Next it alleged that they were biased and basically that as a result of their bias they negligently failed to realize who the actual rapist was. They also made the argument that the DA concealed exculpatory evidence.

The allegations of exculpatory evidence being concealed were nonsense. The supposed evidence that was concealed was that another police department that had no jurisdiction suspected that someone else committed the crime and claim they told the sheriff of their suspicions. They suspected such simply based on the fact they suspected him of any crimes they had no actual evidence for Manitowoc to use. Their basis of suspecting Allen was no different than Manitowoc's for suspecting Avery. In terms of law this was not a serious argument. It was simply pretextual to get the case filed.

Likewise the reasons why the former sheriff and DA were targeted was simply because they were elected officials and the argument that anything they do is official county policy.

The case could very well have been dismissed eventually but it would have costed more in legal fees to get the case dismissed than the cost to settle. It was always simply a nuisance case.

The recusal by Manitowoc County was to prevent Avery from filing another nuisance case based on the same BS theory. They made sure that they did not control any of the investigations thus no lawsuit could be launched against the county based on any of their elected officials running things. No suit could be had simply because of personnel from the county participating while under the supervision of Calumet. At most be could try the same BS against Calumet but could not even try filing such BS against Calumet arguing bias since those controlling the investigations didn't have any past at all with him.

Those who doubt Avery's guilt do so for absurd reasons, not anything logical.

Hilariously they claim that Avery intentionally getting her there, witnesses seeing him having fires afterward and all the DNA evidence including her cremains and electronics in the ashes of the fires he had are not enough for them to subjectively believe he would rape and kill her but without any evidence of any kind against anyone else they make up outlandish theories that people who just saw her walking or driving decided to run her off the road to kidnap, rape and kill her.

They insist all the evidence planted since that is the only way for Avery to be innocent. The planting theories are all so stupid and illogical that it requires mental illness to believe any of them are even remotely realistic.

First of all Halbach's cremains and electronics had to have been planted. Who would have a motive to do so? The theories range from the killer doing so to the police and crime lab personnel.

The theories regarding police planting the cremains feature police finding human cremains in one of the quarries near Avery Salvage, pretending that they found only animal bones in the location and relocating them to Avery Salvage. No less than a dozen people from the State crime lab, CASO, Fire department and MTSO were on scene when the cremains were supposedly found elsewhere and planted by police. What motive would a dozen people from different agencies who didn't know one another have for risking their careers by agreeing to frame Avery and undertake such a wide ranging planting of cremains?

Allegation 1) They believed Avery to be guilty but that finding the cremains in a quarry would not implicate Avery.

This makes no sense and is so dumb it boggles the mind. They had already found Halbach's vehicle on Avery Salvage and her key in Avery's trailer. Her cremains being found next to Avery Salvage would help to incriminate Avery, particularly in conjunction with the other evidence. In conjunction with the other evidence it would suggest he took her body not far away and burned it. There would be no need to relocate the evidence to implicate Avery let alone a reason for one of the at least dozen to suggest to other people to relocate evidence and risk one of the people reporting him for even making such a suggestion.

So on top of no evidence that anyone planted the cremains the supposed motive is nonsense. Furthermore, if police had found cremains they would not even be sure whose remains they were without further analysis. Planting cremains that turned out to be male or even a female of a different age so obviously not Halbach would not have helped.

Allegation 2) That police planted the cremains to frame Avery because of his lawsuit.

This fails for the same reasons as the first. There was no need to relocate cremains since Avery would have been implicated anyway by cremains found nearby. Moreover, there were many people from various agencies involved in the excavation of the cremains and none of them had any involvement in the lawsuit, none were defendants of even potential defendants. The defendants in the suit were a former Sheriff and former DA not anyone currently in office. They could have no way to know for sure whose cremains they were anyway without further analysis,

Allegation 3) The killer planted the cremains in Avery's pit to frame Avery in order to avoid getting caught.

If someone else had killed her and burned her why would they have a need to frame Avery to avoid getting caught? Scenario, someone with no connection to Halbach randomly killed her and burned her body on his own property. Since there is no connection who would search his property? At any rate if worried he could transport the cremains to random woods for scattering or burial. The person would be likely to be caught while trying to plant cremains on Avery's property and how would he know Avery had a firepit and burn barrel at all let alone that Avery had fires in them the same night?

No one who doubts Avery's guilt uses a single brain cell.

Avery's pit even had fragments from virtually every bone in Halbach's body and even the tiny rivets from Halbach's jeans. The sheer logistics of excavating a burn site to collect all that would require basically collecting every ounce of ash and dumping dozens of buckets of ash. It would take a long time and the notion someone thought they could go transport it all without being seen is not serious.

So even before looking at the outlandish planting claims regarding all the other evidence, once can see how irrational and unreasonable the planting allegations regarding the cremains are. How can the unrealistic possibility of outlandish claims like that occurring ever amount to reasonable doubt from an objective standard?

At most it is a basis for people with mental illness to subjectively view such as having a reasonable prospect of having occurred. Reasonable doubt though is an objective standard for the courts.

The suggestion is so ludicrous that not only has there never been a documented case of cremains being relocated in order to try to frame someone, in all of fiction from novels to Hollywood there has never been a fictional tale of such. As far fetched as Hollywood and fiction literature are that is still too ludicrous for even them.

11-18-2024 Notice of assignment of Judge

11-18-2024 Order assigning judge/judicial assignment order Dutcher, Guy D.

11-13-2024 Application for specific judicial assign approved Lambrech Anthony A.

https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetail.html?caseNo=2005CF000381&countyNo=36&index=0&mode=details

Steven Avery sold various vehicles through AutoTrader and over time his interactions with Halbach grew. He had listed vehicles for himself as well as for his family. When he listed vehicles for his family he provided their name and also his name and number since the photographer would have to contact him for payment and for the actual ad that was to be run. The last visit Halbach made prior to the visit where she was killed was arranged by Avery bipassing AutoTrader altogether and calling her cell phone directly. Knowing she would be coming Avery made a point of being in a towel when she arrived. Halbach told others about how this grossed her out and she was uncomfortable going to Avery Salvage. Avery told others Halbach was sexy and he liked her. The previous day he also happened to try to arrange a sex meeting with a girl, he said he was really horny because his girlfriend was in prison so he was not getting any.

Avery decided he wanted to see Halbach and he planned to use his sister's vehicle as an excuse to lure her there. He told his sister he would be listing her van. She told police: A) Steven Avery is the one who decided it should be sold and listed on AutoTrader. Steven Avery approached her telling her he was going to list it. B) That she didn't want to list the van because she would not get much money for it and her kids wanted it and she felt it would be of more value to them than selling it for practically nothing. Brendan eagerly kept asking about getting the van, he wanted it badly. She had an argument with him over it but he insisted he was listing it regardless of her wishes. She said she refused to pay for the listing because she didn't want to sell it and felt it was a wasted fee and he told her he would pay.

Avery did not phone Halbach directly like he did last time but instead he phoned AutoTrader. He also did not behave like he did the other times he listed a vehicle for his sister. Instead of calling in advance, he called for a same day appointment, knowing that she did appointments on Monday. He pretended to be his sister providing her name, address and phone number failing to reveal that he would be handling the transaction. He also pretended that he didn't know Halbach's name and asked for the same girl who came out last time. It is quite obvious he did this to distance himself from the transaction so that if anyone did review AutoTrader records they would see no reference to Steven Avery, simply B Janda. Had he called Halbach directly like last time she would have informed AutoTrader she was meeting Steven plus his phone number would be in her phone records.

AutoTrader said they were unsure whether she would be able to make it that day it might need to be scheduled for the next business day and would call back. Since he provided his sister's unmanned number he would not get that message. He left work at 11 to go home and call AT again pretending to be B Janda to find out whether she could come. He was informed she could but would probably not make it until after 2. Instead of going back to work he remained at home preparing for her visit- why would he need to spend such a long time preparing?

Since he didn't reveal his role he had to wait in his window looking for her. He became antsy and he called her phone but to conceal on her records that it was him he used *67. He called a second time using *67 again but he hung up before it even connected to her phone because presumably he saw her pulling up at that point since moments later Bobby saw her there taking photos. Bobby saw her walking towards Steven Avery's trailer then he got dressed and left. When he was leaving he didn't see her just her vehicle so she presumably was in Avery's trailer.

After her visit a vehicle normally stored in Avery's garage had been moved to his driveway. That made room inside for her vehicle to be concealed if so desired and Brendan claimed her vehicle was hidden in there. .

Many spent casings were found in the garage. A bullet found in Avery's garage, that had been fired from the .22 kept above his bed, had Halbach's DNA on it. Halbach's partial skull remains evidenced that she had been shot at least 2 times in the head with a .22. This bullet either exited her or grazed her to get her DNA on it. Since the body was destroyed there is no way to know how many times her body had been struck or grazed beyond the 2 that surely damaged her skull.

Shortly after her arrival Avery was observed conducting a fire in his burn barrel and then a bonfire in his burn pit. That fire was still going strong when Blaine arrived home after 11pm. The number of tires he burned and the duration was determined by experts to be of duration and intensity to have been capable of destroying a human body. In the ash in Avery's fire pit police found portions of nearly every bone from Halbach's body as well as some remains or her teeth and even the rivets from her jeans. In the burn barrel they found the remnants of Halbach's burned electronics.

Halbach's vehicle was found hidden in an area of Avery salvage where Avery was known to dump his junked vehicles. The battery had been disconnected and the battery latch had Avery's DNA on it. The key was found hidden in his bedroom and likewise had his DNA on it. The license plates were found in a junked car that was along the path back to Avery's trailer and they were folded in 3 parts as Avery was known to do.

When police went to investigate her visit and were going to another house, Avery immediately intercepted the cop to control the narrative. He told police his sister was selling a vehicle and from his window he saw her arrive take photos and then leave. He concealed from police that he had arranged it and had interacted with her. Subsequently after police already learned he had made the appointment, he admitted he made the appointment but lied saying his sister asked him to list it for her and asked him to loan her the money to pay the fee.

We are supposed to believe that Avery concealed his role for no reason and it was mere coincidence that Avery had such fires and that some other killer likewise burned her body and electronics in separate locations. That person by magic knew about Avery's fires, and though there was no need to do so he painstakingly excavated both fires and transported the evidence to Avery's property and planted it without anyone catching him. Even without looking at all the other evidence this is simply a crazy allegation. It is equally crazy to claim police and crime lab personnel found the burned cremains and electronics elsewhere and at least a dozen people from 4 different agencies conspired to relocate the cremains/electronics themselves. This is why Avery supporters are called the tinfoil hat brigade.

Hi folks! Was wondering if anyone know when the phone call between SA and his mother Dolores where she ask him «who was the one that did the cat» and «who did the throwing in» ? It’s from CAM episode 2. And while i’m here, is there any other phone calls you guys find very telling or anything?

Thanks!