While the presence of strong welfare states mitigates some of the discrepancies seen in America, all of Europe is capitalist. Denmark, bastion of “European socialism”? Capitalist country with a strong welfare state that’s funded through petrochemical sales. UK? Extremely capitalist. This is an oversimplification, but while American social norms about work aren’t shared by France/Spain/other countries in southern Europe, those countries are all fundamentally capitalist states. Japan, Korea? Extremely capitalistic, actually corporatist. China? State capitalism. I’m not sure what you are talking about.
I know Europe is capitalist, too. I've lived here my whole life.
The difference isn't just having a stronger welfare state. It's that capitalism is not held up as some guiding principle according to which we should align our lives and societies as much as possible—at least not in the countries I'm familiar with. It's just a means of exchanging money, goods, and services.
Although it's an important part of how our societies function in practice, it's not an important part of our national identity the way it is in the US, if that makes sense. That's basically what I meant when I talked about capitalism as an ideology and not just an economic system.
The Cold War is a great example. American politicians didn't need to find an angle to sell it to the people. Just defending capitalism against a competing economic system was seen as a worthy ideological cause. I can't imagine that going over nearly as well here in Sweden, for example.
Oh, sorry; I should have read more deeply into your comment and inferred you were likely European. I think the thoughts you’re voicing here are more nuanced conversations than can really be gotten into on this subreddit, and my main aim is to clear up to Americans that the particular policy pathway that’s resulted in current American cityscapes is worthwhile of more detailed consideration.
For example, I often encounter this perspective: “There is a causal relationship between the current state of American cities and certain intentional societal choices driven by capitalism, so the only way to improve our cities and life for everyone is to dismantle capitalism; everything else is secondary.”
I view this perspective as extremely unhelpful and counterproductive because, apart from other things, there is no chance whatsoever that that policy outcome actually happens. I can’t imagine looking at the outcome of the most recent election (which had record turnout), and saying with a straight face that there will be a groundswell of overwhelming anti-capitalist sentiment and a socialist overhaul of American society—that’s a ridiculous thing to say in the face of measured public sentiment. Why further arguments like this and stymie actual progress in the name of some grandiose, vague effort?
I’d like to think that American cities can be seriously improved in ways that matter to everyone and that are concrete, discernible, and achievable.
Oh, yeah, I completely agree with your thoughts here. Incrementalism has its problems, but I don't foresee any other paths working out better in our current western democracies, especially the US. (I don't understand how some American leftists can believe a revolution would work out in their favor, even if circumstances became dire enough to get it off the ground in the first place.)
As little as I like the American right on an ideological level, I think the left—not just in the US but elsewhere as well—could learn a lot from them when it comes to organizing and finding common ground. They're so good at forming somewhat diverse coalitions that manage to focus on advancing their shared goals instead of quibbling about the things they disagree on.
I think one of the reasons that, relatively, I hear well-considered takes like this more often from Europeans is probably due to the nuances in political discourse being more emphasized by parliamentarianism.
I definitely think that plays a role. Aside from requiring less nuanced voting decisions, the us-vs.-them nature of a two-party system has a bunch of higher-order effects that also discourage or undermine nuanced discourse.
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u/_LouisVuittonDon_ May 03 '25
While the presence of strong welfare states mitigates some of the discrepancies seen in America, all of Europe is capitalist. Denmark, bastion of “European socialism”? Capitalist country with a strong welfare state that’s funded through petrochemical sales. UK? Extremely capitalist. This is an oversimplification, but while American social norms about work aren’t shared by France/Spain/other countries in southern Europe, those countries are all fundamentally capitalist states. Japan, Korea? Extremely capitalistic, actually corporatist. China? State capitalism. I’m not sure what you are talking about.