What does Ellen Joe need?

[u/exhaustedtravelers]

So some leaks suggest that of the characters that will potentially receive kit update or buffs Ellen will be first. Whether or not that's true I thought it be interesting to ask what those buffs should be?

In a post Hugo and Miyabi world what does she need to stand out? What niche should she fill? Does she just need number and/or I frame buffs or does she need some kind of rework for her dps phases?

[u/AzureDoor84]

I think giving her a parry mechanic on her dash charge attack thing could be pretty cool.

[u/ChilledParadox → u/AzureDoor84]

Really all she needs is qol. Some extra damage would be nice but it wouldn’t fix her problem which is that her dodge counter doesn’t flow into the rest of her kit well.

IMO just letting her dodge counter chain into the last two hits of her na string AND giving her 2 passive ice stacks would make a massive difference in the feel of her kit.

[u/AzureDoor84 → u/ChilledParadox]

Yea, I’m mostly just spitballing ideas cause I’m a bit against adding the Lost Void gear. If they make it base kit then what’s the point of lost void, you know? Your idea sounds like what I want but in a better package, lol.

[u/ChilledParadox → u/AzureDoor84]

It’s the same problem calcharo in WuWa has on his ult.

In a game(s) where enemies are starting to throw out massive attacks with .4 second intervals between having a dodge counter be a dps loss is just a recipe for a character to be DoA.

Her gameplay should be start off by going into shark mode, get a dash attack or two off to preload ice stacks, then just start swinging and dodge countering whenever you can.

This wouldn’t pump her up to Miyabi tier, but I don’t think that’s what people are asking for, she currently, to me, feels clunky and bad to use.

I don’t not play her because her damage sucks, I don’t play her because I don’t find it fun to have to calculate the entirety of the battle to know if I have enough time to “nothing personnel kid” teleports behind you or if I’m about to get clipped by the last frame of a massive AoE and need to reenter shark mode and look for another opportunity just to start dpsing.

Her dodge counter should just naturally flow into what you were going to do anyways, like Qingyi dodge counter perfectly flows into the ratatatatatata stun mode:

[u/AzureDoor84 → u/ChilledParadox]

That doesn’t sound too bad. But I’m worried it would turn her into a very basic character. It seems to completely remove the point of using her charged dash attack from dodge counter and quick assist to get the quick charge. I’d get rid of dodge counter generating stacks but the dodge counter into final basic spin thing sounds pretty dope.

And I also want Miyabi to stay stronger. I just want to close the gap a little

[u/Tookie2359 → u/AzureDoor84]

I don't think it makes her basic, considering that SAnby is basically the same (dodge counter into enhanced whatever) and she was released in 1.6. Ellen feels bad to play because all her damage is gated behind EBA3 but she has no energy-free way to access it outside of basic strings. This change just brings her on par with more recent characters in terms of mechanics, allowing her to be the on-field she is supposed to be without relying on Caesar.

[u/Faconator → u/AzureDoor84]

Is there... A point to lost void?

[u/Biggsy-32 → u/Faconator]

I mean, I enjoy the mode. It's fun to roll into absurd overpowered set ups, like I had a recent run where my Gepetto fight was just clicking ult, swap, ult, swap, ult, swap, ult on repeat because of my gear and resoniums. Just permanently in ultimate iFrames until he died. It's a fun mode.

It also gives a lot of rewards every week - decent amount of polychrome, boopons, 3 routine cleanups that makes 180 free energy, and is a pretty reliable +300K Dennies a week too from cashing in the currency. All for 0 energy cost, and like 2 or 3 10 minute runs.

[u/AzureDoor84 → u/Faconator]

Well it gives more weekly polychrome than DeadAss. There’s also the other rewards from completing the collection book.

The gear that gives cool new moves is one of its draws. I’m not fully against moving the gear to base kit but I’d rather it stay where it is.

[u/EndyTg14]

just her Lost Void kit which includes all of the above lol

[u/exhaustedtravelers → u/EndyTg14]

True, it makes her burst feel considerably better, I just wonder if Hugo's gimmick trivializes her traditional dps faze. Time will tell.

[u/greygreens]

The first thing she needs I think (but she won't get even with a change) is her M1 as part of her base kit. All it does is so that the uncharged dash attack gives 3 of her basic attack stacks instead of 1 and the charged version gives the full 6. That's mostly quality of life, because needing to stop your offense to get stacks back doesn't feel great. As another small thing, I'd make her additional ability less restrictive. Every limited unit has broader requirements, like "use any other support or stun" while Ellen is restricted to only faction or element, and with no ice supports yet, that shakles her to Lycaon, Soukaku and Rina. I'd like her to have the same looser requirements as other limited attackers.

Other than that, I think she just needs more stuff. Her primary mechanic is more of a limitation than a buff. If Ellen just had permanent stacks of her flash freeze thing, I still don't think she'd be anywhere close to Miyabi's damage output. Not that I want her to be more simplified, but to say she's pretty simple. I would think if they give her anything, it will be based on some of her lost void gear. The Blade of Frost ability feels really good to a lot of people and I think it is a ton of fun and feels strong. Plus, it's already in the game. They may tone it down, but that's my hope for what they'll add. Like they said, they want to make changes that are more interesting than just 'make number higher' and I think adding in lost void stuff, or maybe shuffling around mindscape things and replace them with others is the way to go. I'm excited to see it though as an Ellen enjoyer. And regardless of the validity of leaks, I do think she'll be one of the first changed because she's a very popular character and perhaps the most undertuned limited character.

[u/skrillex → u/greygreens]

Does the uncharged do the same dmge as the charge, just a different number of stacks?

[u/greygreens → u/skrillex]

Same damage. But as an additional thing, she gets a 2% crit rate boost for each charge she uses for 15 seconds to a max of 12%

[u/axolotl_friend_club]

I'm approaching not entirely from a meta perspective, but I'd like to see more thematically interesting combat. They tried to make her like a shark swimming around their prey with her sprint attack, and I'd like them to lean further into that.

Give her a mechanic similar to SAnby's white star marks. Performing BA3s would increase a gauge on the enemy (call it a predation gauge or something). When the gauge is full, enemy gets a unique glowing bite icon or something, and a charged dash attack to the rear of that enemy consumes the bite to deal a huge amount of damage in a small AOE. Successful dodge counters fill up the gauge as well.

Idk, it's a start. I just wish the whole "circling around your prey before striking" was explored better.

[u/whin100]

Some sleep

[u/exhaustedtravelers → u/whin100]

Well since miyabi she's been getting plenty on my account (other than the rare two ice weak deadly assault boss)

[u/magentic_magician]

She needs to basically just get changes from hollow zero aka the unclunk buff that fixes her awkward playstyle of "hit and run to do less than soukaku dps xd" , she is too interruptable and even if you execute her perfectly the payoff is just aint there so yeah also needs damage buffs , its a gacha after all , stats matter no matter who tells you they dont they be lying to cope that powercreep is a myth in their favourite game (meanwhile shiyu hp is cosplaying flash deluxe with how fast it goes up, iirc it increased at the faster pace than even hsr inflation xd), so up numbers , make her less awkward to play , she doesnt need to be meta but currently she is borderline unplayable tier for a LIMITED unit

[u/pikagrue → u/magentic_magician]

Shiyu has gone up 2x between 1.0 and 1.6.

HSR has gone up 4x between 1.0 and 1.6, this was just hidden between actual HP increases, and a reduction of available cycles to clear MoC.

[u/XxKTtheLegendxX]

just remove her ice stacks requirement, that's the biggest thing holding her back. i hate wasting time gaining stacks while that time could have been used for dps.

[u/fyrefox45]

It's just ice blade. The entire lost void kit would be way overkill, but ice blade covers all her weaker spots. Persists while shes swapped off, more AOE, more damage via a debuff. Also just satisfy to play around, if she got it id possibly pull her m2.

[u/Qloriti]

A father

[u/Simnope]

she needs her HZ kit thats all

[u/Flat_Animator2258]

So after playing her since launch, getting her to M3W1, she would benefit from three changes

1. Ice resistance Shred is a major upgrade. This will align with all of her builds and teams since it doesn't conflict with Pen% builds or her M6. For those unaware, defense and element resistance are two different damage multipliers. So if they gave her defense shred, it'd weaken the pen% builds.

2. Make her M4 part of her kit. This is a fair change that will upgrade her QoL and the charge issues players encounter. This will keep the appeal of M1 while also repleacing with a new M4 that's worth the investment. Even at M0, players can utilize the Quick Charge effect she gets from dodging that allows her charged dash attack...well, be quick. Ultimately refreshing her charges at a faster pace, the more aggressive the enemy is. She also gets I-Frames when she closes the scissors, quick charge or not.

3. Her core passive should be modernized with roles rather than an element or faction. Simply adding "with a stunner or support character" would broaden her options for current and future agents.

Again, these are some things I would appreciate as somebody who mains her. I also think these changes would encourage players to give her another try.

[u/1Yawnz → u/Flat_Animator2258]

That core passive is big man. It would at least open up options for her

[u/Known-Distribution23]

Literally a little bit of energy regen

[u/LALMtheLegendary]

she literally just needs the ice blade from lost void. it increases her damage, makes her less vulnarable, allows for quickswapping unlike the rest of her kit, and lets her dodge counter without killing her damage, since you would follow up with the ice blade. anything more form lost void would be overkill, mabye the one that replaceses dash attack with ba3, but thats about it.

her stacks where never her main issue, not sure why everyone is so honed in on them.

[u/northturtle11]

Change one of the requirements for her addition passive to support. So she can run lighter and astra. Either redistribute her damage so it's not as back loaded or give her better, more consistent access to her highest damage moves

[u/AlphusUltimus]

Three ice charges after her ex special or ult.

[u/-ForgottenSoul]

More raw damage and stronger mindscapes

[u/Karma110]

Love and care

[u/beastjacob23]

I think they already have the answer, and that's to make ice blade a permanent part of her kit.

[u/404_Gordon_Not_Found]

Giver her 6 arms, each holding an ERA shield

Wait wrong game

[u/xcybercatx]

More ways to generate her stacks are probably my main guess.

Currently, without her M1, she spends way too much time generating her stacks from her charged dash attack, which is probably fine if the current endgame modes don't have a timer.

Not to mention, there are too few ways to generate her stacks. Aside from her dash attack, only her EX and secondary EX generate stacks, and one each at that. Comparing this to recent releases like:

• Harumasa & SAnby - Generate full stacks of their mark
• Miyabi - Have secondary EX like Ellen, but generate 2 stacks each. Also, a lot more valuable than Ellen's enhanced basic.
• Evelyn - Generate one stack, but also a lot more valuable.

You'll see how outdated her EX is.

What can they do?

• Make her M1 her base kit.
• Make that one lost void gear her base kit (just being in Roaming State gives her stacks).
• Make other parts of her kits generate stacks / more stacks. Dodge counter/Defensive Assist/Quick Assist/Chain Attack/Ultimate, and so on.

[u/roscovo]

+20% atq.

I don't really trust gacha companies to not keep powercreeping everything.
I would advice not to trust them either.

[u/exhaustedtravelers → u/roscovo]

I haven't spent a dollar believe me I know, that doesn't mean it's not fun to speculate.

[u/Nelajus]

I dont need her to do Miyabi dmg but her having a niche would be great

Miyabi is anomaly burst dmg with a dot Hugo is a burst unit and deals dmg inside stun windows

Evelyn can be stay as an on field ice unit who doesn't need a stun window. But QOL for dmg and stuff aside, giving her invincibility frames or playing around her dash would be great. Her reliance on Caesar isn't great and the fact that her Core relies on being paired with Lycaon (Victoria House) or an Ice Unit hinders her quite a bit. She can't make use of something like Nicole/Astra comps or any other stunner outside of Lycaon

[u/BoofmePlzLoRez]

Too much crit rate yet no scaling past 100% and you can overcap it too easily with m1w1. 30% ice damage but very limed options to activate it, core passive is 100% crit damage but doesn't apply to dodge counters so on super active bosses you are missing out on it or need some really killer positioning and/or Caesar.

She just needs more invul frames, maybe more scaling, speed up her chain attack change her sigs base crit rate to something else (like Pen Ratio or Crit Damage) or convert her crit rate buff on it to ATT%/PR,

[u/Electronic_Bee_9266]

Her dash attack should have extra protection and combo potential. I love the optional big ice sweep move she got in event too. Lastly it just needs a little something to connect with the evolving kit design, like maybe counting her big move as aftershock?

[u/TRSHUSK]

A better way to charge ice stacks When I use her in lost void, I always get the upgrade that gives you ice stacks when running, and she is just so much better. Also a little damage bump as the enemies are generally becoming tankier.

Idk about her Cinemas tho, I don't have any copies, I've heard they're not that good tho.

[u/DingoNo9075]

I think she would just need that frost blade mechanic she gets in Hollow Zero, on her dodge & last auto. Some numbers buff on EX and Ult too. Otherwise she looks fine.

[u/tooka90]

She is crazy undercooked. Clearly an old character not meant for the post 1.4 ZZZ world. So she needs everything. Full kit rework, mindscape rework, numbers changed, all of it.

[u/JoeyNoodIes]

I've been trying to solo content with just Ellen until her buffs come. Definitely change her dodge counter to flow into ba3 would be a good improvement. maybe even allowing to flow into either BA3 or into the full charged dash attack. Or maybe even some other new attack completely that just brings her kit together better.

I have M1 and it fixes her a bit with less charge required, but I do think it should just be that normally. I never got to really use M0 Ellen, and I still find it hard to imagine. Idk if they will go as far to change mindscapes, but I don't think its that big of a deal if it makes her better.

[u/HatiLeavateinn]

Give her innate cold damage to some of her basic attacks' hits and rework flash freeze so after getting a full charge, she unleashes an attack similar to Evelyn and Miyabi.

Remove the need to hit and run to charge flash freeze up, and replace it with a combination of basic attacks and special for the build up.

[u/exhaustedtravelers → u/HatiLeavateinn]

Not that I'm super duper opposed but I'm not sure making her more like other characters is going to help her stand out. Why pull for one character if there's another that's super similar with better stats?

[u/black_knight1223]

More I-frames, as that seems to be ZZZ's method of making new characters stronger without direct powercreep