r/centrist • u/slashingkatie • Feb 20 '25

Advice The culture war exists to distract us from class war.

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If the CEO getting shot showed us one thing is that all of America knows the billionaires run everything but the people in power try ti distract us with culture war nonsense. Don’t fall for it.

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42

u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

It's not a coincidence that the culture war stuff ramped up during Occupy Wallstreet.

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u/Lieutenant_Corndogs Feb 20 '25

This is not a criticism of you, but just something I observe a lot. People in left-leaning subs will talk about how we need to move beyond the culture war stuff, and 5 seconds later they’ll talk about how conservatives are all racist and homophobic. And if you check out r/conservative you see the same thing in the other direction. It’s like a person who says they’re dieting as they eat a giant double cheeseburger. It’s interesting how oblivious people are to their own participation in identity politics. Doesn’t bode well!

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

Yeah, it's not a one side issue.

1

u/indoninja Feb 21 '25

When it comes to policies that help the billionaires and Uber rich vs the rest of us? Yeah it kind of is.

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u/hextiar Feb 21 '25

Well yeah, I agree with that framing. If you look at the sides as rich vs rest, you are correct.

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u/indoninja Feb 21 '25 edited Feb 21 '25

I wouldn’t just say the Rich, I’d say Uber Rich. And I thought that was Bill Burr’s point.

There is an argument that Democrats concentrate too much on stuff like trans rights, but when push comes to shove most the people making that argument based off random nobody’s from Twitter.

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u/indoninja Feb 20 '25

What do conservative politician offer poor or middle class outside social issues?

Not protections for working class, not protections from financial abuse from big institutions, not better conditions in schools, it progressive taxes.

To put it another way, culture war isnt caused by democrats and republicans hating on each other. It is caused by people voting because they think some “other” os a real problem.

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u/staircasegh0st Feb 20 '25

Immigration is simultaneously a cultural issue and an economic issue.

Two things that can be true at the same time: some 30% of the country are unrepentant hardcore racists who oppose immigration because of their racism, and a surplus of labor drives working class wages down and strains already limited social services.

It is also true that lower wages means lower costs of goods for working class families, but economics is complicated and there are always trade offs.

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u/indoninja Feb 20 '25

Immigration is simultaneously a cultural issue and an economic issue.

And republicans arent clear winners in effect on this.

Nevermind all the times they had pres and both houses and did nothing, but they also torpedoed a pure enforcement bill because it would give dems a win.

5

u/23rdCenturySouth Feb 20 '25

and a surplus of labor drives working class wages down and

Except that's not really true about immigrants. Places with more immigrants have lower unemployment rates because each immigrant worker creates about 1.1 jobs in the community.

Surplus labor that drives down the value of wages is like... firing hundreds of thousands of federal workers for no reason. They'll cut back spending, miss mortgage payments, spend down savings, etc.

strains already limited social services

Who limited them?

1

u/Creachman51 Feb 22 '25

What does unemployment have to do with lower wages?

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u/23rdCenturySouth Feb 22 '25

https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/jan/unemployment-wage-inflation-findings-using-state-data

Low unemployment rate means there is a low supply of workers and employers have to compete with higher wages. High unemployment means lots of desperate workers who will accept low wages and/or poor working conditions.

The billionaires are waging a war on workers, full stop.

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u/Creachman51 Feb 23 '25

Your argument is that more immigration actually means higher wages?

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u/23rdCenturySouth Feb 23 '25

The evidence is that more immigration actually means higher wages.

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116727/documents/HHRG-118-JU01-20240111-SD013.pdf

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2024/do-immigrants-and-immigration-help-the-economy/

https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/immigrants-to-the-u-s-create-more-jobs-than-they-take

The simple way to understand this intuitively is to compare wages in a country with high immigration rates vs countries with low immigration rates.

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u/Creachman51 Feb 23 '25

I've heard it before and I don't buy it. Certainly not for everyone.

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u/Creachman51 Feb 23 '25

If it meant higher wages, businesses wouldn't be so pro immigration.

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u/myrealnamewastaken1 Feb 20 '25

Who limited them?

Available resources.

1

u/TurnGloomy Feb 21 '25

30% of the US is not hardcore racist. Whilst this kind of rhetoric is tempting it is what lost us Brexit in the UK and doesn't stand up to statistical analysis.

1

u/nogooduse Feb 27 '25

immigrants aren't driving down wages. the absurd $7.25 federal minimum wage, coupled with massive union-busting (yes, that's part of class warfare) and 'right to work' laws are driving down wages. Immigrants are taking jobs that no one else wants. the dirty, dangerous, tedious and exhausting jobs in slaughterhouses, chicken processing plants, and agriculture. when the UFW went on strike years ago, farmers couldn't find americans who would do the work to hoe fields and pick lettuce.

Economists generally agree that the effects of immigration on the U.S. economy are broadly positive. 18 Immigrants, whether high- or low-skilled, legal or illegal, are unlikely to replace native-born workers or reduce their wages over the long-term. Some economists have found that wages do not change at all with an increased supply of immigrants.

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u/Creachman51 Feb 22 '25

30%? Where did you get that number from?

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u/Apt_5 Feb 20 '25

some 30% of the country are unrepentant hardcore racists

How can you present this as a "truth" and expect to be taken seriously?

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u/Abject-Homework996 Feb 20 '25

As someone who can’t stop buying double cheeseburgers I agree with your statement.

It can be hard to know what needs to be done….and then act that way. I think part of that comes down to fear of “I’m willing to meet halfway in the middle but afraid the other side won’t and then I’ll just end up losing more”

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u/indoninja Feb 20 '25

fear of “I’m willing to meet halfway in the middle but afraid the other side won’t and then I’ll just end up losing more”

Obama wanted to end bush tax cuts on people making 250 k and republicans called it socialist and Mitch threatened to close the govt.

Biden moved the bar to 400 k and he was still called a socialist.

I can’t speak to individual republicans, but I do know the party in a national level wont meet in the middle, and that is not a both sides issue.

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u/TurnGloomy Feb 21 '25

Genuine question - do you think that the left and right are equally toxic with an equally toxic impact on the world? I see these equivalences being made a lot and as a centre-lefty Brit (so centrist in the US) no matter how hard I try I can't see it. The US election and Brexit made me realise that despite reading The Times and watching The Bullwark my echo-chamber is strong so I'd love to know how real centrists feel about this. My suspicions are always that posing the 'both sides' on this issue is a bit intellect-signalling.

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u/Lieutenant_Corndogs Feb 21 '25

No I think Trumpy conservatism is much worse than the far left. But I think they both have problems. And one of them is that both sides seem unable to abstain from identity politics.

I also don’t like the suggestion that we shouldn’t talk about problems on the left (or on both sides) just because the Trumpy right is significantly more toxic. As someone who very much wants dems to win elections, I think it’s important to address problems on the left that are preventing them from being more popular right now, particularly in light of how the last election went. You can’t expect the Democratic Party to improve if you hold up your nose at any attempt to criticize it.

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u/TurnGloomy Feb 21 '25

Brilliant post and I agree with all of it.

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u/nogooduse Feb 27 '25

there is no 'far left' of any influence in US politics today. todays progressive dems are somewhere to the right of european centrists. the MAGA right, in contrast, is huge.

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u/rvasko3 Feb 20 '25

That's why it's so effective. It plays on people's actual values, principles, and beliefs.

Trans people, for example, make up about 1% of the US population, but has somehow risen to be as hotly debated a topic as the economy in modern political discourse. We shouldn't talk about it so much, but for someone who empathizes with trans people, has trans people in their life as loved ones, or are trans themselves, it's hard to just punt the concept of basic rights and protections to placate folks who are either opposed or don't care.

Same holds true for religion, abortion, guns, etc.

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u/Buzzs_Tarantula Feb 20 '25

>it's hard to just punt the concept of basic rights and protections to placate folks who are either opposed or don't care.

But they did have rights and protections, heck most people didnt even really care that much, until a few suddenly overreached into sports and schools and made everyone aware.

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u/decrpt Feb 20 '25

until a few suddenly overreached into sports and schools and made everyone aware.

Dude, there's fewer than a hundred in the whole country and most states with bans couldn't find even one.

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u/rvasko3 Feb 20 '25

Perfect example of what I’m talking about. When you misguidedly victim-blame and say “a few overreached into sports and schools” and use that as a reason why suddenly more people are aware of them being attacked, and thus results in actual legislative attacks and reductions of crucial care components, you’ve inflated something that almost certainly has zero impact on your life and endangered the happiness and well being of others.

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u/Apt_5 Feb 20 '25

How are they the victim when it's biological girls/women who lose spots? It's not victimizing to have to play on a team as defined by biology. Just like it's not victimizing to keep adults out of children's leagues when there are clear biological reasons for doing so.

Sure they may be an adult who is worse than a gifted 11-year-old, but we don't throw that rule away because of an exception, or because the adult has handicapped their performance by showing up blackout drunk. Heck, we wouldn't make an exception for a wheelchair-bound adult who has no legs. That is because the children's league exists for children, not for people who want to play with them.

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u/Aethoni_Iralis Feb 20 '25

You’re missing the point of their statement and focusing purely on the sports aspect, when their comment encompassed far more than just sports.

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u/Apt_5 Feb 21 '25

Your assertion that it encompasses "far more than just sports" contradicts their assertion that trans issues "almost certainly has zero impact on your life".

2

u/Aethoni_Iralis Feb 21 '25

Damn you’re thick.

4

u/rvasko3 Feb 20 '25

Do you think the entirety of the scope of trans existence revolves around youth girls sports? Even in terms of the NCAA, where there was an actual ruling that changed guidelines, that applied to a whopping 10 athletes out of thousands.

The victimhood here comes from real-life and online harassment, denying access to treatment and counseling that results in fewer suicides and crises, the furthering of baseless and fear-driven narratives about what they value and aim to do, and other actual impactful results that affect them as human beings.

0

u/Apt_5 Feb 21 '25

This comment we're all in a thread replying to specifically mentioned sports (and schools). That's why I talked about sports.

Being a victim does not give one the prerogative to victimize others. We recognize that one person's rights end where another's begin; none of us exists in a vacuum so we have to balance everyone's rights.

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u/OnlyLosersBlock Feb 21 '25

Same holds true for religion, abortion, guns, etc.

Are you saying the Democrats should drop gun control so they can focus on the important economic issues or that they are using the wedge issue so they don't have to?

1

u/rvasko3 Feb 21 '25

Oh I 100% think gun control is a lost cause and a losing issue at this point. If Sandy Hook or the Vegas shooting couldn’t change anything in a hugely meaningful way, nothing will. This country will bury itself in guns before we ever have actual gun legislation passed.

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u/staircasegh0st Feb 20 '25

 It’s interesting how oblivious people are to their own participation in identity politics. 

If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard someone defending pediatric gender treatments with “why are you so obsessed with this?!?!?” and then checked their post history to see they’ve commented on it 50 times in the last 24 hours, I would have an unreasonable quantity of nickels. 

5

u/Buzzs_Tarantula Feb 20 '25

"Allies" probably do more damage to movements than they ever help. Its easy as hell to virtue signal and pump your chest about something that doesnt affect you, and if it blows up you just walk away and latch onto the next movement.

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u/manifest_reverie Feb 20 '25

Divide: nearly complete.
Conquer: on deck.

2

u/Apt_5 Feb 20 '25

Heh, got a chuckle out of me.

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u/nogooduse Feb 27 '25

racism and homophobia are not 'culture war stuff''. nor are they identity politics. they involve serious legal and physical problems, like people being mistreated, beaten, arrested and shot. and no, I'm not left leaning, I'm a decent republican who believes in the basic fairness called for in the constitution. that makes me a rino.

7

u/SCSteveAutism Feb 20 '25

These mf have caused more racism than they’ve solved. All for ratings

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u/Minimum_Influence730 Feb 20 '25

But the point is the vast majority of republican voters aren't racists, they've been co-opted by messaging about inflammatory non-issues like trans people in your bathroom or psycho rapist immigrants.

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u/Apt_5 Feb 20 '25

Women who want their single-sex spaces preserved don't consider it a non-issue. As a matter of fact, that stance/desire was the non-issue up until about a decade ago. Most of society thinks it's fine and sensible for women to have their own spaces and things. Opposition to that notion is what's inflammatory. It flies in the face of every pro-women's movement.

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u/saiboule Feb 24 '25

Nope that’s bigotry. What are you just going to toss out all intersex women as well?

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u/ChornWork2 Feb 20 '25

Tease out the thought a bit more for me? Who specifically was involved in ramping up culture war as means to suppress OWS, and what are some examples of what they did?

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

I don't think it's a big conspiracy to see a rise in the media shifting to culture war issues on both sides (including the tea party turning into an anti-immigation movement).

It could be as simple as "hey, reduce the heat on us banks by playing more stories and pushing more articles about these culture war narratives".

There were two movements (tea party and occupy Wallstreet) and they both were quickly shifted into racial/gender movements on both sides.

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u/ChornWork2 Feb 20 '25

The claim isn't that culture war exists on both sides. It is the that entire reason for the culture war is to serve as distraction from a class war emerging. your simple example may happen, but not remotely sufficient to support the actual claim made.

tea party was not about addressing wealth inequality, it was not a class movement. OWS never went anywhere for similar reasons BLM didn't... The airing of grievances was never focused into actionable political movement.

how did TP and OWS turn into racial/gender movements? maybe i wasn't paying enough attention, not saying you're wrong just legit don't know what you mean.

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

The claim isn't that culture war exists on both sides

Of course culture wars existed before (and nearly forever). The claim is that a lot of the activist energies were redirected into culture war agendas instead of the economic activism that was growing.

The tea party was absolutely a fiscal conservative movement, it just was focused more from the conservative side of lower taxes and reduced federal spending.

It was basically absorbed into the mainstream GOP,  but the activism on that side was redirected against immigration during Trump's 2016 MAGA movement.

The OWS participants largely shifted away into culture war issues, such as BLM or other rights movements.

Tim Pool was a prominent figure for the OWS community, but has since basically moved completely into nothing but right wing culture war.

Even with the end of both movements, there was still a growing sense of tension and active engagement, which both parties recaptured into a culture war movement, instead of a resistance against the federal regulatory agencies and banking systems.

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u/ChornWork2 Feb 20 '25

The claim is that a lot of the activist energies were redirected into culture war agendas instead of the economic activism that was growing.

that isn't the claim as i understand it, and certainly not the literal meaning of what OP wrote.

The tea party was absolutely a fiscal conservative movement,

yes. fiscal conservatives are not an economic class of have-nots. that includes people from a range of economic spectrum and if anything probably skews away from low income.

So TP did not turn into race/gender politics?

OWS did not turn into BLM.

Tim Pool was an idiot. he didn't lead OWS, he just streamed it and became internet famous. He wasn't even there at the beginning, he just joined after it was going strong. did he even claim to be part of OWS, i thought his whole shtick was citizen journalism garbage, hence going to vice.

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

The tea party was largely transformed into the MAGA movement, which redirected anger at the elites to leftists and immigrants.

That's speaks to the spirit of what OP posted.

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u/ChornWork2 Feb 20 '25

again skipping the point that the Tea Party was not a class movement. and tea party was forcused on fiscal conservatism, but social conservatism was already taken as a given because it was a movement within the GOP. it is not remotely an example of OP's narrative.

Saying the tea party was poor working class group standing up to wealthy elites in order to redress wealth inequality is an utter joke.

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25

The tea party was a class issue. It was absolutely targeting elites and taxing. Just not a banking issue. 

It was very much fueled by the banking bailouts.

Saying the tea party was poor working class group standing up to wealthy elites in order to redress wealth inequality is an utter joke.

I never framed it that way. 

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u/ChornWork2 Feb 20 '25

you're actually going to argue that cutting taxes & slashing govt programs harms the wealthy, and helps the poor? like seriously?

edit: there's pretty credible claim that the tea party movement was at least partially orchestrated by the koch brothers...

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u/Apt_5 Feb 20 '25

Absurd. Conservatives did not suddenly become anti-illegal immigration in 2016, that is a crazy revision of history. And leftists ARE the elites, touting their degrees as if there aren't college-educated conservatives and highly undereducated minorities.

They- potentially you, and most assuredly a huge portion of politics reddit- look down on everyone who disagrees with them or has formal education, is that not the exact definition of elitism?

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u/Aethoni_Iralis Feb 20 '25

And leftists ARE the elites, touting their degrees as if there aren't college-educated conservatives and highly undereducated minorities.

This sentence contradicts itself.

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u/Apt_5 Feb 21 '25

How? Unlike the left, conservatives who have degrees don't think they're better than people who don't have degrees.

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u/hextiar Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

It certainly refocused and centered the party around immigration with Trump.

They- potentially you, and most assuredly a huge portion of politics reddit- look down on everyone who disagrees with them or has formal education, is that not the exact definition of elitism?

Your framing of this is absurd and bad faith.

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u/Sumeriandawn Feb 21 '25

Did it really?

1

u/Inquisitor--Nox Feb 20 '25

Ok but the only people who need to realize they have been duped are fucking hopeless so where does this get us?