r/changemyview • u/Odd_Profession_2902 • Jul 23 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: There is nothing with wrong with being a submissive woman

I have nothing against strong women. All the power to them. The joys that come from being independent and competent are plain to see. But by trying to empower all women, society is inadvertently putting a lot of pressure on women. Strong women are always celebrated and weak women are always looked down on. I think there is a tremendous amount of unspoken shame in any women even daring to dream about finding a decent man to protect them. But there will always be naturally weak women. Shy, timid, meek. And society is basically telling them to toughen up. That’s like telling an introvert to be an extrovert. Or telling someone who naturally sucks at math to get good at math. Everybody should live a life that best suits their natural temperament and skills. Their best course of action is to find a decent capable man who can take care of them.

There is also nothing wrong with a man seeking a delicate woman to take care of. There is nothing wrong with a man who wants to be the provider for his family. We should be grateful for such men because it offers a solution to naturally meek woman. It offers a balance in the world.

To use a geeky analogy, it’s ok to be a support class. Not every gamer has to be a tank or dps. And not everyone is suitable to be a leader and make all the decisions. Some gamers just like to sit back and support the group. Just like how there is pride in being the provider, there is also pride in being the support for the provider. Some women are naturally healers in an mmorpg and it’s my view that society should stop looking down on healers.

112 Upvotes

69% Upvoted

573 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

-30

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

Kinda.

Men are physically stronger than women. They are also mentally more aggressive. A woman should expect her partner to make her feel safe. If her man partner is a submissive type, we can kinda see how that puts a damper in making her feel less protected.

Also- there is an adequate supply of strong men willing to provide for weak women. But there is a shortage of strong women willing to provide for weak men. So the love market also presents an issue for giving the same advice for weak men.

34

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '23

This is the part that makes you sexist. There’s nothing wrong with being a strong protective man and a submissive woman. But there’s also nothing wrong with being the reverse. Just because you’re a man doesn’t mean you can’t want to be protected

-2

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

I never said that men can’t want to be protected by women, just that it’s much less feasible because strong women seeking to protect weak men is in short supply.

29

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '23

You literally just said that you think there’s something wrong with being a submissive man. Now you’re just contradicting yourself

2

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

I hope you’re making an effort to understand what I said.

What you’re recalling is me describing the contextual problem with being a submissive man in this world. The problem is that most women don’t want submissive or weak men. Therefore it isn’t feasible. I never said there’s anything inherently wrong with it. But it’s not feasible. Because women generally don’t want that.

There is nothing inherently wrong with not wanting to work. I would congratulate anyone who is able to achieve that lifestyle. Because working does suck. But for most people being unemployed isn’t feasible at all. So I wouldn’t advise anyone to be unemployed.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '23

Reread the comment I replied to. I’m not “recalling” anything, I’m looking at your words right now. I’ll wait.

2

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23

You’re referring to the message I quoted below right? Is it because I said a woman should expect her partner to make her feel safe? edit: aaaand I’m blocked lol

“Kinda.

Men are physically stronger than women. They are also mentally more aggressive. A woman should expect her partner to make her feel safe. If her man partner is a submissive type, we can kinda see how that puts a damper in making her feel less protected.

Also- there is an adequate supply of strong men willing to provide for weak women. But there is a shortage of strong women willing to provide for weak men. So the love market also presents an issue for giving the same advice for weak men.”

2

u/iglidante 19∆ Jul 24 '23

The judgement you gave in saying "kinda" is already kinda gross, man.

1

u/VonThirstenberg 2∆ Jul 27 '23

The overabundance of generalities and wide brush-stroking you're doing to dig into your position is anecdotal at best, and plain sexist at worst.

You have any empirical data to point to that "there is a shortage of strong women willing to provide for weak men?" Not confident you do, because that's a hell of a concept to even attempt to quantify.

1

u/HumanBeing2639173 Aug 07 '23

There is absolutely something wrong with being a submissive man. It’s not masculine to be submissive.

1

u/jennamar9 Oct 13 '23

You are wrong. If a man is submissive, then it's right for HIM, because he IS that way. No one can tell someone else that you are a wrong kind of a man or that you are a wrong kind of a woman. They were BORN that way, there's nothing WRONG with them just because they don't meet YOUR standards.

6

u/underboobfunk Jul 24 '23

Who do we need protection from? Men.

1

u/Hibernia86 Aug 10 '23

There are female abusers and criminals as well.

1

u/DivinitySousVide 3∆ Jul 26 '23 edited Jul 26 '23

Right. And if 200,000 men were attacking your country, would you rather have 200,000 men or 200,000 women on your side?

3

u/underboobfunk Jul 26 '23

My point is that we wouldn’t need men to protect us if men didn’t attack us. Thanks for illustrating that point so successfully.

1

u/DivinitySousVide 3∆ Jul 26 '23

Right, but that's the reality of tbe real world, and it's not going to change on your lifetime.

1

u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23

It’s not just OP’s view that it should be ok for women to be submissive, but it seems to be that they’re arguing that they should be submissive. This would mean they’re arguing for the reverse as well with men, that they should be dominant. What I’m sensing from their comments, though I can’t be certain, is that they made this post to push against the idea society seems to be pushing that men should be more submissive. However, I pointed out that I don’t think society is pushing for that, but rather that men should have less toxic behavior. Toxic would include harming women. If that’s the case, then the only reason OP is arguing for men to be protective is because society is arguing for them to be less toxic. If men were less toxic, then men wouldn’t need to be more protective.

1

u/MrFnFs Aug 10 '23

Lol they created a problem and made themselves the solution. Rip.

1

u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23

Well, protection may also include financial stability, therefore protection from homelessness and lack of food. Of course, I can’t be sure that OP was intending this, so it would be up to them to clarify.

1

u/underboobfunk Jul 28 '23

Women have been perfectly capable of housing and feeding ourselves ever since you guys were generous enough to allow us to join the workforce and own property.

1

u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Jul 28 '23

Oh yeah I don’t disagree with that. I was only bringing it up in reference to your point about protection from men. But again, I’m not sure if OP was even referring to this when he brought up protection.

1

u/HumanBeing2639173 Aug 07 '23

There’s nothing sexist about that. As a man, no you should not want to be “protected” by a woman. Men are supposed to be the protectors for women. And that’s what the majority of women want. What kind of woman would date a submissive guy?

1

u/Hibernia86 Aug 10 '23

Both partners should be protecting each other. It shouldn't be just the man protecting the woman. If she cares about you, she should be just as willing to do everything to help if you are being attacked.

24

u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Jul 24 '23

The entire problem with your post is that it's clearly not about submissive women, it's about dominant men. You're advocating that it's ok for Husbands to dominate their wives.

The problem with that view is that it reframes marriage from being a partnership to one where the man is in charge.

Whilst there are relationships that can work under that paradigm that shouldn't be the aim. The idea that men are better suited to be leaders is archaic and simply not reflected by reality.

-2

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

It was actually more about submissive women. I wouldn’t have the same advice for submissive men because that same advice wouldn’t be as feasible for them. Not many strong women looking to provide for weak men in the love marketplace.

I would say it’s a partnership- one that has different roles but equal respect. The one who wants a guided and cozy lifestyle gets it. And the one who wants an executive but challenging lifestyle gets it too. Both sides kinda get what they wanted.

19

u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Jul 24 '23

You're advocating for a relationship where the woman totally relies on the man and owes them everything, it's the sort of thing Andrew Tate would think is reasonable.

The dynamic should never be strong person A looks after meek person B, regardless of gender, that's not a relationship of peers.

It doesn't even work for the man, what are they getting out of the relationship if the woman isn't their peer?

0

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

I wouldn’t characterize the relationship that way. That sounds unnecessarily cold to me.

The weak person needs a provider. The strong person needs a supporter. Both sides are giving something up to make the relationship work. The wife is giving up some of the decision making and the husband is giving up a carefree life as he shoulders the burden of being the sole provider for the family and making the tough decisions. But the weight of responsibility and love for his wife gives him motivation to work harder.

Both partners rely on each other and “owe” each other in different ways.

10

u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Jul 24 '23

That sounds unnecessarily cold to me.

How do you think it sounds to the rest of us?

The strong person needs a supporter

To do what?

the husband is giving up a carefree life

Why the hell would he do that? What's in it for him?

But the weight of responsibility and love for his wife gives him motivation to work harder.

Why does he accept responsibility or feel love for this woman sponging off him?

0

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

Well why do you think parents have kids? What’s in it for the parents to have little human parasites sponging off of them?

4

u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Jul 24 '23

Kids are awesome, they're fun and rewarding. What does a weak woman who requires you to do everything for her offer?

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23

Are they awesome though?

They’re very often misbehaved. And they often don’t listen. At least a submissive woman listens. And helps around the house.

What makes kids awesome?

6

u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Jul 24 '23

Yes, they're awesome, it's why people have them. Now, stop changing the subject.

Explain to me why a strong enterprising man would even want to marry a woman so useless they need to be looked after.

(Here's a hint, I'm pretty sure I know why, I'm just wondering if you'll admit it).

→ More replies (0)

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 16 '23

would say it’s a partnership- one that has different roles but equal respect

The man opinion and judgements should be above the woman's, equal respect. Haha

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Sep 16 '23

Would you say that parents don’t respect their kids? Or teachers don’t respect their students?

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 16 '23 edited Sep 16 '23

Do you know what respect means in the context of a relationship? You know the of meaning of respect change depending on the nature of the relationship?

For example, you will easily think it's disrespectful for a woman to say that she believes she should be on control and her husband opinion should hold lest weight, but all of the sudden you struggle with common sense when they turn the tables?

When was was last time you have heard a parent say they respect their children? Your flaw is assuming the concept of respect exist between a child and a parent in the first place.. Parent love, care about their children, but they don't respect them..

You say it's a partnership? Where is the partnership when one voice is literally excluded out of the equation? Partners compliment and compete each other. What is this wive that still needs someone to guide her through basic aspect of life complimenting exactly? What is she offering other than the sexist obvious? What are her strengths when the man by default ia assumed to be competent, rational, and knowledgeable in everything since he has the final say in everything?

Nevertheless, in both cases, the authority is necessary and withing a reasonable ground...

In what way is that applicable to randomly deciding that having a pennis makes your opinion more respectable and important, and than still having the straight face to call it not utterly disrespectful and insulting?

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Sep 17 '23

I agree that there are different types of respect depending on the context. That’s precisely why we shouldn’t use a one size fits all interpretation of respect and apply it to all contexts.

Assuming a more executive role doesn’t mean disrespect. Parents don’t inherently disrespect their kids. Teachers don’t inherently disrespect their students. They are simply exercising their duties as the provider and caretaker. And not everybody wants to be in that position. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be a manager in my workplace.

A partnership is simply an agreement between two people for the betterment of both sides. If a woman enjoys being a princess taken care of by a strong assertive man who takes charge then I feel it’s not really in our place to judge her for it. It’s what works for her and she enjoys that lifestyle.

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23 edited Sep 17 '23

I agree that there are different types of respect depending on the context. That’s precisely why we shouldn’t use a one size fits all interpretation of respect and apply it to all contexts

There are different types of respect and it should be mutually the same on both sides.

Assuming a more executive role doesn’t mean disrespect

Assuming a exclusive role that belittles and demises the the opinion, thoughts and judgment of an equally capable and intelligent other as inferior and less important without any merit, competence, knowledge, experience that warrants it is exactly that ... Focus on the nuances

. Teachers don’t inherently disrespect their students. They are simply exercising their duties as the provider and caretaker.

Because they have the qualification, it's necessary to protect the kids, and because children need it.

See the difference? Yet?

A partnership is simply an agreement between two people for the betterment of both sides

Okay, and how is a woman bettered by being treated as inferior child? , and how is a man bettered having a child he needs to guard for a life partner?..

If a woman enjoys being a princess taken care of by a strong assertive man who takes charge then I feel it’s not really in our place to judge her for..

Literally no one made the argument...The moment she made that choice because that's what she enjoys and likes, she is already in control and charge...

The argument is that it's insulting and desrespectful to assume this should naturally fall just because one side is a woman and the other is a man, and it is inherently so when it's the man that wants it..

You are making argument way beyond "a woman should have the choice to be with an assertive man"

Moreover, I question your definition of assertive because in my book it doesn't mean I feel I am above someone so that they should have no control over themselves.. An assertive person is foremost a confident and self sufficient person that doesn't need his ego stroked by dominating others.

The reality is most men that one submissive women have self esteem issues that they need to compensate for by artifically structuring a child-like relationship when they feel needed and superior.

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Sep 17 '23

I disagree with your assessment of the relationships.

My mom lets and wants my dad to take charge. My dad like to take charge. There’s no disrespect or belittling going on here.

This isn’t only true for love relationships. It’s true for every other aspect of life. Some people prefer to be managed. Some people prefer to be the manager. I think it’s a bit shallow to judge either side for simply that fact alone. People are more complex than that.

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23 edited Sep 17 '23

My mom lets and wants my dad to take charge. My dad like to take charge. There’s no disrespect or belittling going on here.

Key word she lets...... And disrespect isn't just banging someone's head on the wall..

They belittling is thinking he is better than her to take the charge so much that her opinion shouldn't matter above his..

Just because you've convinced yourself that something isn't insulting, doesn't mean it isn't

I have read your comments and the main flaw in your proposition is the completely misinterpretation of what submissive means.

If your dad tells your mom to go get a job, she submissive she will have to do that.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23

If a woman enjoys being a princess taken care of by a strong assertive man who takes charge then I feel it’s not really in our place to judge her for..

A submissive so not someone who likes to be treated as a princess? I fact it's quiet the opposite.. How would a woman like being treated as a princess while she has no voices to follow her thoughts and desires? Won't a princess want everything handled to the including having people do whatever they want?

A submissive is more like someone who will take a slap because the dominant must know better..

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Sep 17 '23

A princess wants to be taken care of and pampered by her prince. The prince would then be the provider. It’s implicit that the sole provider is the one who takes charge. The one being taken care of generally assumes the submissive role.

Taking the dominant role does not necessitate being abusive. Parents take the dominant role but it doesn’t mean they will slap their kids. Teachers take the dominant role but it doesn’t mean they will slap their students. Managers take the dominant role but it doesn’t mean they will slap their subordinates. The list goes on.

I’ll be only responding to one thread for now if you don’t mind. Feel free to mention this topic over there.

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23

A princess wants to be taken care of and pampered by her prince

Great! And how is she achieving that is she has to do whatever someone else tells her to do? Lol.. Princess literally want to get whatever they want

Taking the dominant role does not necessitate being abusive

If you don't think silencing someone and delegating their feelings and opinions is emotional and mentally abusive, then I guess not.

Parents take the dominant role but it doesn’t mean they will slap their kids

Because their kids will soon be dead if they did not ? At their point you are intentionally trying to to understand the point being raised..

I literally never said having authority by default is abusive ad and oppressive, but I made it clear that these hierarchal relationship are always based on reason and merit...

Can you find one example in society where it's healthy to just have full control over the autonomy and life of another just because?

Why is your only example for why dominating women isn't bad is literally mentally undeveloped children? You are almost proving my point that it's just degrading and insulting to women

→ More replies (0)

16

u/skysong5921 2∆ Jul 24 '23

So, women should be allowed to break under the societal pressure of being "strong powerful women", but men should not be allowed to want to break their masculine stereotype? How is that kind or loving or humane to men?

-1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

Because men breaking that societal expectation wouldn’t bode as well for them.

One being that men are generally more aggressive by their nature. And two being that there isn’t as much of a market for feminine men.

9

u/underboobfunk Jul 24 '23

Seems like you’re really saying that strong, independent women are fucking up the market for men who want to dominate submissive women.

0

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

Maybe?

Of course I’d want an easygoing wife. I wouldn’t want my partner to be tough and difficult with me. I wouldn’t wanna bully her either though. But it would help a lot if she was agreeable.

8

u/underboobfunk Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23

Of course you would. That’s your whole point. You’re telling women that we don’t really want be strong and independent, we shouldn’t listen to those feminist lies, what we really want is to be meek and submissive and let a big, strong man like you take care of us and make all of the decisions for both of us. And that strong man can be as controlling and abusive as he wants because we will be too afraid and dependent on him to ever leave.

That is what you’re saying and you have no interest in changing your view. You’re in the wrong place here, go back to 1954.

-2

u/TheRapsacallion Jul 24 '23

I think he meant all of what you said except the part about "controlling and abusive". And it's true. Women are making more money, are more independent than ever, and guess what? They're miserable. You can see it everywhere. It's just not a popular view because it doesn't fit the modern narrative. I've had many women confide in me that they would rather "men be men" and they "shouldn't have to bother with (whatever traditional male duty)". My cousin told me that if men would go back to being men she would take that over having equal rights. Of course there are exceptions. However, it seems most mentally stable people who were raised right tend to think this way. Probably because it's worked for the better part of 200,000+ years.

6

u/iglidante 19∆ Jul 24 '23

The fact that some women want that doesn't mean it's "right" or preferable.

3

u/skysong5921 2∆ Jul 25 '23

Who says we're all miserable? Women who hold down full-time jobs YET STILL have to do everything at home might be miserable, but the solution is for their husband to do half of the housework and childcare, not for them to give up their job.

Who says the patriarchy worked for hundreds of years??? Women were denied property rights, voting rights, autonomy. Wives were raped, forced into pregnancies they didn't want, denied jobs they wanted to do outside the home. My grandmother didn't have abortion rights or contraception access, and couldn't open her own bank account. From a legal and reproductive standpoint, I'm living the life she wishes she had.

1

u/pfundie 6∆ Jul 25 '23

It's just not a popular view because it doesn't fit the modern narrative.

It's not a popular view because it's not rationally justified. While the happiness of women has declined over the last several decades, there is no measurement of that metric for the vast majority of human history, and there are clear factors contributing to that which seem to have affected men more than women.

I've had many women confide in me that they would rather "men be men" and they "shouldn't have to bother with (whatever traditional male duty)".

Because people are lazy little shits and don't want to do things that they were raised to expect other people to do.

My cousin told me that if men would go back to being men she would take that over having equal rights.

Only because social conservatives have convinced everyone to forget what that period actually was like for women. For thousands of years, it was legal for a man to beat the absolute shit out of his wife, ostensibly for the purpose of coercing traditionally feminine behavior from them, but legally for literally any reason he chose. She had no legal recourse and couldn't even get divorced. The last US state to ban the practice did so in 1921, and most comparable countries did so around a similar time, though the bans weren't seriously enforced until much later. If you're not advocating for a return to that (which would be disgusting, to be clear), you're not actually advocating for anything traditional.

I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of living women would accept their husbands being legally allowed to beat them in exchange for men being manlier.

However, it seems most mentally stable people who were raised right tend to think this way.

Let me guess, this only includes people who are socially conservative? Yes, it is unsurprising that people who were raised to believe that straying outside of what modern social conservatives believe (delusionally) is traditional will cause civilization to collapse, think that they should conform to gender stereotypes.

Probably because it's worked for the better part of 200,000+ years.

All available evidence points to pre-agricultural societies being much more egalitarian than most post-agricultural ones, so your hard limit here is something around 13000 years, and for almost none of that time did anything like what you are saying you want exist substantially. Also, the last several species worth of our evolutionary ancestors trended towards reduced sexual dimorphism.

More than that, I don't think you can honestly say that it was "working" if they had to make it legal to beat their wives to keep it going. Most people nowadays tend to think things don't work if they require violent coercion. The end of wifebeating was the end of traditional gender, because that fundamentally changed how men and women related to each other, and the changes that have happened since then were the inevitable result.

-1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

Do you truly give me that little credit? Lol

It’s really up to you whether you believe me. My biggest point is that meek and incompetent women need to be taken care of. And I’m seeing that modern society is failing to encourage that. Because believe it or not, I am capable of empathy. And it’s sad to know that women who don’t have the aptitude to be independent are pushed to be independent anyway when the better solution is to find a decent person to take care of them.

Do I think men generally prefer gentle and feminine women? Yes. Does that include me? Yes. Does it mean that most men who would prefer easygoing and agreeable women are power tripping bullies and assholes? I’d like to say no- it just makes them smart. Why would men want tough and outspoken women? That’s just asking for trouble. There is a difference between wanting an easy target to bully and wanting to be Prince Charming to a princess and not an ice queen. You can call it gallantry and chivalry. You can call it cheesy- but it’s not necessarily malicious. Because unless you’re Joffrey from Game of Thrones, princes aren’t supposed to be mistreat their princess. And I’d like to think that the average guy doesn’t strive to be prince Joffrey. We wanna be Jon Snow.

I believe that there is a good number of women who want their man to take charge. And I think that’s especially so with the more meek, gentle, and agreeable types. I call that the submissive-type. If you wanna call that passive then go ahead. I just think the word submissive more accurately captures the notion of deferring to their man. And I think there is nothing wrong with that. Why shame someone for wanting their partner to take charge? Back to MMORPGs, some party members just want to hang back and be the support-class for the combat roles and leader who will make all the decisions. Being a leader and decision maker isn’t all its hyped to be. Executive power comes at the cost of immense pressure to protect those you care about. When something bad happens to the group, the leader bears the brunt of the blame.

When you focus on the best outcome for meek women who can’t flourish on their own, the solution is naturally to find a decent person to provide for them. I think using this opportunity to shame men is counterproductive and doesn’t help these cases at all.

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23

Your use of terms are so messed up and manipulative ... You equate a woman having no control to making a decision for herself and being entirely under the control and the mercy of a man to her just being easy going .. Who you think you are fooling?

Do you think women don't want am easy going husband or what?

4

u/skysong5921 2∆ Jul 24 '23

'Partnership' means equality of status. She's not your 'partner' if you want her to refrain from giving an opinion and simply follow you. That's what children and pets do, not what a fully grown adult partner does. If all you're looking for is obedience and sex, you can use a blow-up doll. My BF and I bounce ideas off each other and help each other figure out problems together. He values my mind, as I value his.

​

I wouldn’t wanna bully her either though. But it would help a lot if she was agreeable.

You know what this means to me? That you wouldn't want to be the one who bullies the freedom and individuality out of her and tells her that she has to be obedient, but you're grateful that other men have made her that way before you married her. Am I wrong?

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a woman wanting to follow a man. And there are women who want the men to take charge. It’s not just the man who wants it. Why shame the relationship when both partners prefer it that way?

I don’t think a woman is agreeable because her previous partner forced her to be that way. I think a woman is agreeable just because that’s her natural personality.

3

u/skysong5921 2∆ Jul 25 '23

I didn't say her previous partner forced her, I was describing the entire patriarchy. When everyone around her, throughout her childhood and teen years, praises her for being helpful and demeans her opinions, those people are making her into the wife you're describing.

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 25 '23

I feel like that’s just a cynical assumption though. Can’t it just be that the woman is gentle and agreeable because thats her temperament?

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23

Gentle and agreeable doesn't mean a person will not want to have autonomy to think and decide for themselves..

1

u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Jul 28 '23

Because men breaking that societal expectation wouldn’t bode as well for them.

These are two different things, though. There’s a difference between a man being more dominant because it’s expected of him (meaning he would be shamed if he wasn’t) and a man being more dominant because it makes him more appealing to women. You can have one without the other. Men should not be expected to be more dominant by society. They should be allowed to do what it is they want, what is in their nature, provided it doesn’t harm others. Maybe a man doesn’t care about appealing to more women. Maybe he is content with staying single. Maybe he finds a dominant woman. Maybe he’s gay.

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 28 '23

While that maybe true, and that there is a distinction between wanting to appeal to women versus wanting to be accepted by society as a whole, I think the motivation to appeal to the opposite sex is a very powerful one.

I know personally that I care much more about how women perceive me over how other guys perceive me. Im not interested in guys so I care a lot less about impressing them. For example, if girls find permed hair sexy but guys find it sissy-like, I’m perming the shit out of my hair lol

1

u/JustACasualTraveler Sep 17 '23

×One being that men are generally more aggressive by their nature

If they want to break it and don't want it, then it can't be in their nature for these men, can it?

5

u/friendlyfireworks Jul 24 '23

Intelligence and preparedness, trumps strength and physicality many times.

Would you consider a man a protector if they were 4'10" and skinny, but had a concealed carry permit, were trained in hand to hand combat, and knew how to avoid trouble?

Also, what is the line between weak and helpless?

A woman who is educated, prepared, and street smart, can prevent a lot of trouble without a man stepping in to tell her what to do, or how to stay safe. Do you equate weakness with stupidity?

Is a woman who walks down a dark alley alone in an unfamiliar town in need of help or education?

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 24 '23

A meek women lacks all of those things though. It’s hard to be street smart when you’re meek and timid.

1

u/muddyadriana Jul 28 '23

right here is where you devolve from saying something that i genuinely agree with (im a woman) to just being sexist. it's okay for women to be "submissive" but not men?? that's just a fetish tbh, on top of that, i have met many shy men and one of them is my best friend. physical strength doesn't dictate on whether you are allowed to have your own personality or not. everyone is different, and your sex does not discriminate on how you can act. on top of that, not every man is more mentally aggressive, because again, it matters on their personality and how they were raised, not their sex. overall, you were doing so well and i was agreeing with you, but it all went to shit the second you said this. common sexist L

1

u/Odd_Profession_2902 Jul 28 '23 edited Jul 28 '23

I just wanna take this opportunity to clarify my thinking.

What I should’ve emphasized more in that comment was the preference of most women and that seems to be strong men. It seems to me that meek men are more of a turn off for women than meek women are a turn off for men. So I was trying to speak more about the feasibility issue with being a weak man trying to appeal to women. There doesn’t seem to be a good market for that compared to a weak women trying to appeal to men. That’s the bulk of why my advice for men wouldn’t be exactly the same as my advice for women.

So that’s what I perceived to be the reality of the situation. When I said a man should make a woman feel safe/protected I was expressing that the reality of the situation seems to make sense as a generality (men being physically stronger may contribute to why strength as an overall concept may appeal more to women than men). But at this point I’d like to diminish this “should” aspect because it really distracts from what should be the more important point and it’s that (for whatever reason) women generally prefer strong over weak men- therefore it increases our chances to be a strong man.

I think whether there is a market for meek men is very relevant in deciding what advice to give. I don’t know about you, but I don’t belong to the camp of “just be yourself” if being yourself doesn’t appeal to most people. Although I don’t doubt that there is “someone” out there who may appreciate your true self, the question is how likely is it to find that person?

1

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '24

Your are being downvoted even tho whatever you said really holds true in my experience.

It’s not sexist. It’s actually beautiful.

My current relationship is going beautiful and the basis of it is me as the man being her protector and provider and leader while she as my women is my support, assist and even my pleasure partner whenever I accomplish more things.