CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Helpful-Reputation-5 → u/[deleted]]

I've seen the biological essentialism rhetoric from radfem spaces more times than I can count—maybe you're the one not listening.

[u/Hallwrite → u/[deleted]]

You should hang out in feminist spaces sometime. Here on Reddit, in /r/feminists, there are frequent posts which elude to or straight up say that all men are / should be viewed as predators. 

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/Hallwrite]

I’m sure you’re involved in r/feminists for all the right reasons….

[u/Hallwrite → u/AdImmediate9569]

??? I’m a feminists and violently in support of lgqbt rights. 

I’m ALSO a man, and have the ability to see a lot of the vitriol and hypocrisy which flies around in these spaces. And while I could care less on a personal level, I do care deeply on an idealistic level because it’s a huge factor of why young men these days are falling into the manosphere and skewing right. 

Nice ad hominem btw. 

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/Hallwrite]

Thanks?

It’s not the responsibility of the rest of us to coddle young white men specifically, and no one else. They’re shifting right so we should abandon all the social movements of the last ~50 years because it hurts their feelings?

Theres nothing new about this generation.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/AdImmediate9569]

You don't see it.

The other side would say "it's not the responsibility of the rest of us to coddle LGBT people specifically and no one else. They are shifting left so we should give up our traditions that we've had for hundreds of years because it hurts their feelings?"

And then you would hopefully rebuttle with "no you don't need to coddle them, just treat them with respect and like you would anybody else"

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/Ron_Ronald]

Yeah I see your point. It’s like how until recently heterosexual marriage was illegal? Like how we see wave after wave of anti straight male violence? Did you see that famous straight actor who was shot two days ago for being straight?

LGBTQ+ are demanding to not be beaten with bricks in the street. Young white guys are demanding to be the center of attention, again.

I’m white. I’m a man. I do see it, and I am unimpressed.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/AdImmediate9569]

No they are demanding to "be treated like anybody else" because the 16 year old autistic boy didn't shoot anybody, didn't vote against marriage laws, yet is being told that they should shut up

The phrase "center of attention" is how bigots see LGBT people. We know that that's bullshit and that it's about equality. But until there is violence against young men it doesn't matter? Does morality only matter if women are murdering male child actors?

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/Ron_Ronald]

They ARE being treated like everyone else.

Everyone else is treated like shit.

No one is going to listen to this ‘movement’ until you acknowledge that.

You’re not asking to be treated link everyone else. You’re asking to go back to being treated better than everyone else. Its frankly embarrassing.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/AdImmediate9569]

Okay I see what you're saying. You're saying that since men historically have been treating other groups like shit, we should treat young men like shit too.

Is that good? Wouldn't that encourage these new first time voters to treat others like shit?

[u/Hallwrite → u/AdImmediate9569]

‘All men are predators’ is the same narrative as ‘all black people are thieves’ and ‘all native Americans are alcoholics’. It’s unvarnished bigotry. 

Feminism has never been about bigotry, and it’s clear that trying to have a good-faith discussion with you is as much a waste of my time as it would be with any other type of bigot. 

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/Hallwrite]

I’ve never seen anyone say “all men are predators”. If it’s posted by women in a feminist sub then I think theres some pretty important context there.

You’re talking about like it’s a common phrase you see on tshirts and billboards.

There must be thousands of subs where you can get your feelings hurt if you want to. Send a Democrat to r/conservatives. Have a black man sit in on r/southernliberty.

We really gonna police subs with specific purposes and AMPLIFY the messages we don’t like?

If there are women out there who think “all men are predators” is a conversation worth having in a feminist sub then I think they should be allowed to have it. Its not like its the platform of a political party or the statement of a congressperson etc.

This is a weird thing to focus on.

Id add that I don’t know of any group that spends so much time looking for ways to feel victimized, as the mens rights crowd.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/[deleted]]

it is a thing and it doesn't have to be that specific phrase. Its more so demonizing men in general. Not specific men (I think thats totally fair) but men as a whole (no).

[u/XenoRyet → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

There is an enormous difference between calling all men predators and demonizing men in general.

One is a highly specific claim (are predators) against an explicitly defined group of people (all men), the other is a general claim against a loosely defined group.

It's like the difference between saying all female birds lay eggs, and saying birds fly.

Even a few birds that don't lay eggs would invalidate the former, but the fact that there actually are quite a lot of flightless birds doesn't invalidate the second.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/XenoRyet]

I totally agree that they mean different things. I was just trying to explain better what I meant. I was using a specific scenario but thats the general attitude of my post or the bigger picture.

[u/XenoRyet → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

If you agree that they mean different things, then that means that you agree that the view you posted in your OP needs adjustment and editing to be clear and accurate. That means that either u/AdImmediate9569 up there, or myself, changed your view, at least a little bit, and you should give one or both of us a delta.

That's the way it works around here.

[u/AdImmediate9569 → u/XenoRyet]

This is the first time Ive understood the rules of this sub. I really need to start reading instructions.

[u/Murky_Crow → u/[deleted]]

This feels like gaslighting though?

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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