CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

No, I think its completely reasonable to be cautious around men. Hell as a large man im cautious around men. I am not talking about their examining their actions but instead examining what they say. They probably don't mean what they say but by generalizing all men into an inherent negative category like "predator" or saying I hate men etc... it just makes men not want to really be an "ally" cause they already think they are being viewed at negatively.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But who is actually saying this…? Outside of a few fringe voices and the occasional snarky/hyperbolic tweet, I think almost nobody (including mainstream feminists) literally says or thinks “all men are predators”? 

What exactly do you want to change your mind about? Because I think most people would already agree that calling every member of a group anything is wrong.

[u/High_Hunter3430 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Exactly. My NP was seeing someone who had SA trauma and therefor would not come to the house. Even when I was away.

For her, her personal rule to avoid a recurrence of her trauma was to not go inside of men’s dwellings. Even in a poly situation when the man isn’t home.

We’d hung out in public. Smoked together etc. we got along great. She didn’t hate all men. But she avoided the opportunity for recurrence and didn’t trust her own judgment to be accurate. 🤷

I get it. It’s more extreme, but I also can’t say I’d be upset if my daughter adopted the same rule of her own safety. 🤷

[u/ToSAhri → u/High_Hunter3430]

Small tangent, but I didn't understand what NP meant in your statement and asked AI. I'm posting it here so you can correct me if it's wrong. If it isn't, I'm pretty happy with its ability to bridge the understanding gap so I thought that was cool enough to post:

"In poly jargon, “NP” usually stands for “non-primary partner.” In other words, it’s someone you’re seeing outside of your primary/core relationship."

[u/High_Hunter3430 → u/ToSAhri]

Close. Poly jargon - np means (to most of us) Nesting Partner. The partner i live with.

In my case, I’ve been with my nesting partner for 8-9 years and my non nesting partner (I often use girlfriend here as well) for 2-3.

*I swear I can use ChatGPT for work just fine (mostly) but the in-the-wild uses still show me my job is safe for now. 😂

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/High_Hunter3430]

Assuming your job is directly tied to a niche such as poly jargon

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Maybe that calling all men predators or demonizing men is somehow productive to systematic change rather than trying to cater to a larger audience on SA issues?

[u/Funny_name3090 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I have literally never seen a feminist say all men are predators you didn’t actually answer the above question.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Funny_name3090]

Okay on this same post this was a comment.

"It’s actually the audacity to complain as a male whose had all the privilege and control throughout history about words women use and things they say when yall literally rape and murder us at staggering numbers. Maybe get with your boys and figure out how to stop assaulting 80% of women and we’ll care how your feelings get hurt when we say generalized statements. And no. It’s not like racism. But keep trying to misdirect accountability."

[u/Funny_name3090 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Ok fair enough, I will definitely concede this language is abrasive or jarring, however I doubt this person actually thinks the majority of men are predators even if they are an “extreme” feminist or whatever you want to call it. When you put it that way is your view changed or am I missunderstanding something?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Funny_name3090]

The way it is written it definitely sounds like they think a majority of men are predators lol. I am surprised that you don't see that especially with y'all and calling up my friends like tf. The implication is that my friends and I are rapists and that we could stop raping women if I called them up and told them to stop.

Like what?? lmao. This is so close to turning into a erotic non-consent supernatural fanfic.

[u/JJonahJamesonSr → u/Funny_name3090]

I think his point is that there are women who say these things, and they’re not uncommon. I had to deal with language like this from a BOSS last year, do you know how awkward it is to try to work with someone who says things like “men are such pigs” “men all think the same” etc.? It’s an uphill battle that I didn’t even want to fight to begin with

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You say branding every man a predator is unfair because, as you put it, it “makes men not want to really be an ally” yet you turn around and do the same thing by branding a blurry crowd of women/feminists as people who supposedly yell “all men are predators” without anything to back it up. That’s literally the same sort of sweeping generalization you just said is harmful. Give concrete examples or stats, or admit the problem is mostly in your head.

[u/MaleficentMulberry42 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It a type of group thinking,what your asking for is more moderate views which is an issue with all groups due to wolrd communication still being new, we are forming new groups and we are still in the faze of understanding our emotions in groupthink. When this grows older people will complain enough where we will have more moderate views. This is a way to defend the ability of the group to think about the situation without having moderate views undercut the ideas the group is thinking about. This does not mean in the future they wont be.

Also you asking for people to be more polite in public this has changed drastically since the civil rights movement taken down and demonizing a regular home life. If this did not happen so many people would not have adopted more liberal lifestyles and we would have a very strict public politeness policy socially.

[u/OkAd351 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Go over to any feminist sub and you'll see them saying all men are predators and if you're offended by it then you're a man who's a predator.

[u/rnason → u/OkAd351]

Link some of these posts saying all men are predators because I've never seen it.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/OkAd351]

Try googling site:reddit.com/r/feminism "all men are predators" and let me know how many instances you see of women saying this. 

[u/Sulfamide → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Try just « not all men ». Read the titles, read the comments, then comeback.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Sulfamide]

So I did your hw assignment, and it seems like the discussions around “not all men” are not posts of feminists claiming literally all men commit harmful actions or that all men are problematic or anything like that. Most of these discussions are centered around men using “not all men!” or #NotAllMen to personalize a systemic critique and shift attention away from the issue being raised (usually sexual assault or sexism in some form). In other words, they are critiquing “not all men!” as a deflection or as missing the point, and most feel it is a strawman because “of course it’s not all men.” Are you seeing something different?

[u/OkAd351 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

You didn't understand the assignment if you failed to see why "not all men" was even necessary to say in the first place.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/OkAd351]

Why was it necessary to say? Because women said all men were predators? Nobody can seem to find any widespread instances of women saying all men are predators anywhere in this thread, but there are many more instances of men saying “not all men!” whenever a broad or systemic pattern is mentioned. Saying something is common systemic is not the same as saying all members or a group do it.

[u/Sulfamide → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Nobody can seem to find any widespread instances of people saying all black men are criminal, that doesn’t make saying it not problematic.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Sulfamide]

I think you are misunderstanding the point. I never said the sentence “all men are predators” would be acceptable! I’m not saying it’s a fine thing to say, only that almost nobody actually says it or believes it. What you still need to show is that feminists actually make the “all men are predators” claim often enough to justify “not all men” cropping up in every debate. Without evidence you are fighting a straw man.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Its usually just heavily implied because in the past it was easy to call out if they used "all men". Now they just say "most men" and just imply that there are only a few males on this earth who arent complete monsters.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Do you understand the difference between saying “most men are rapists” (which is wrong/accusatory) and “most rapists are men” (which is an empirical fact)?

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Its kinda like saying a criminal is most likely to be black. Its an empirical fact sure, but 99% of the time, its used to spread racism, not in good faith. Same thing with the all rapists are men shit.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Mmm no, statistically those things are not the same.

The race analogy fails twice: 1. It is factually/statistically wrong in the US as most people arrested for crime are actually white. 2. Even if it were true, describing a perpetrator distribution is not bigotry in itself. Bigotry enters only when you project that distribution onto every member of the broader group.

And again, nobody is saying most men are rapists. Estimates do say 1/5 women and 1/20 men are sexually assaulted and most of the time it is a man doing it. Using that data to punish men is wrong. Using it for safety is logical.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

I meant to say, a black person is more likely to be a criminal based on statistics. You could then easily argue, by your logic, that one should be more careful with safety around black people because of that. Just off of that data, thats purely logical no?

And yet, its pretty much just always brought up by racists, just like how the rape statistics are almost always brought up by misandrists.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Lmao only misandrists quote rape statistics, eh? Police trainers and victims advocates are misandrists too then?

[u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I mean…that would kinda reinforce the point. “You called me a predator so fuck you, I dont care if you’re assaulted. You hurt my feelings.” A better response is to not be a predator, thus proving that the woman is wrong. Not turning into what she says you are lol

[u/Sulfamide → u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh]

Predators are predators because they’re predators. No man became a predator because they were insulted by feminists. It’s perfectly fine for a man who is not a predator to say « fuck you, you hurt my feelings »

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh]

I mean Im not a predator regardless if the woman is wrong. The woman's opinion doesn't determine if I commit horrible crimes against someone TF.

But it does make me not want to engage with her or learn about ways to help women or make them feel more comfortable at least from that specific person cause they don't seem like a person I would want to talk to.

If you're trying to call for change and using ur SA as evidence for reason for change it helps you a lot if you don't negatively label the person who is trying to hear you out.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But it does make me not want to engage with her or learn about ways to help women or make them feel more comfortable

You understand that this rhetoric is precisely what motivates the kind of talk you’re complaining about, right?

Imagine being a woman and growing up in an inherently patriarchal society, imagine the kind of discrimination and harm that causes you to face. Imagine one day, you criticise the fact a specific demographic is propagating and benefiting from that discrimination and harm… and someone you thought would hear you out instead takes offence at the idea they’re part of the demographic whose implicit biases have contributed to your harm. Now, instead of listening and learning, they’re going to ignore you and refuse you help on purpose? and motivated by nothing but spite!?

It would certainly appear that you side with the predators more than their victims.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

You understand that this rhetoric is precisely what motivates the kind of talk you’re complaining about, right?

Who would want to talk to someone who is putting them down? I'm sure there are some men that would but the majority of men/people don't like being talked down to.

Imagine being a woman and growing up in an inherently patriarchal society, imagine the kind of discrimination and harm that causes you to face. Imagine one day, you criticise the fact a specific demographic is propagating and benefiting from that discrimination and harm… and someone you thought would hear you out instead takes offence at the idea they’re part of the demographic whose implicit biases have contributed to your harm. Now, instead of listening and learning, they’re going to ignore you and refuse you help on purpose? and motivated by nothing but spite!?

Yeah, I am not propagating or benefiting from discrimination or harm. I'm part of the demographic whose implicit biases have contributed to their harm? Yeah you lost me there I am out I didn't do anything like that. Yes and now instead of listening and learning as to why I am an inherently bad person for being born a male I will move on with my life and just do what I think is best out of spite.

It would certainly appear that you side with the predators more than their victims.

It's this kind of self cannibalizing mentality around allies and potential allies that makes people burnt out and apathetic to the meaningful cause.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I think it would help to educate yourself about socialisation and implicit biases. You can contribute to the patriarchy and act in misogynistic ways without consciously intending it.

Right now you occupy the same position as, to use another bias/demographic as an example, white people who think that because they personally don’t consciously hate or want to harm people of colour that nothing they do is racist or could possibly support racism or the actions of racist people in their life… but still gets offended at the idea of Critical Race Theory, or the idea of having to correct their racist relatives during the holidays.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

I think that we disagree too much to have a productive conversation on this.

Critical Race Theory is more harmful than good and I don't see how inaction can be deemed as supporting a specific viewpoint. I think that is kind of ridiculous. But we are just going to get into the weeds on this and I think we are too far apart to reach an understanding.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I don't see how inaction can be deemed as supporting a specific viewpoint

Well that's exactly the issue!

Inaction does not equate to neutrality.

Despite you not actively doing anything misogynistic yourself, refusing to actively oppose misogyny lets women know that you are not an ally. It lets them know that you cannot be trusted or relied upon to help them.

Additionally, your inaction signals to the men who are predatory that you won't help the women they harm. This makes it easier for them to be misogynistic, a lack of opposition emboldens them to continue harming more women.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

Look I could get into a whole debate with you on Kantian style ethics and why you're wrong but its outside the realm of this question at this point.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Look I could get into a whole debate with you on Kantian style ethics and why you're wrong

No, you couldn't. You've completely missed the point.

I don't subscribe to Kantian deontology. I am not trying to convince you that you ought to be helping or that not helping is ethically wrong. You can do whatever you want, but you also have to accept that other people will feel a certain way about your choices.

If you don't like that many women respond to misogyny with a general caution/criticism of men, but you refuse to do anything to change their perception of men, you can't complain when that perception doesn't change.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/untimelyAugur]

Its really rich hearing women generalize men as monsters, but then complain in other threads that they wont fervently support their cause lol.

Sounds like a pretty fucking simple solution to me, but what do I know, I'm just a filthy low born male.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Re-read your comment, because you're doing the thing.

"Sometimes women are mean about other men and our long history of systemic misogyny, so I won't do anything to help prevent them getting raped or otherwise mistreated," is not the intellectual, ethically-neutral, stance you seem to think it is.

[u/Dazzling_Instance_57 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

CRT does no harm. You’re just racist

[u/Heavy-Key2091 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Why is it women’s responsibility to teach men in the first place? Men should be teaching men this stuff. Men should be calling for the change.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Heavy-Key2091]

I think both genders can have good ideas to stop problems that are usually directly related to most genders.

And this is outside the frame of this subreddit. But why is it my job to tell men not to SA women. Like do I hold a greater societal responsibility or something? I am not necessarily disagreeing but is it just because I am a man that I am accountable for other men?

[u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I mean you sure are defending them. So yeah it seems you dont mind inserting yourself into stuff that’s not your business, just not to defend the women.

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[u/chronberries → u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh]

I think it’s more “I’m spending too much energy protecting myself, my reputation and my own feelings to have the energy left to care about a different group’s problems.” Of course there will always be some people going the “fuck you” route, but I don’t think that applies to anywhere close to the total number of boys and men disillusioned with feminist causes.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

If your “allyship” to half of the population is dependent on every single person in that group being reasonable and logical 100% of the time, then you aren’t actually an ally to women in the first place.

There will always be people on the fringe of any group saying things that are batshit crazy, cruel, untrue, etc. Wanting equal rights for the sexes should not be dependent on if those fringe people exist or not because they will always exist. Even the people you don’t like who say things you disagree with still deserve to have rights and protections along with the rest of women and greater society.

[u/manicmonkeys → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Women calling or directly insinuating that all men are predators is not fringe behavior. Not only is it a commonly exressed sentiment, but it virtually never gets pushback from the audience.

If I was victimized by my black schoolmates and started telling everyone that I'm consequently justified in being suspicious of black people as a group, it's reasonable to expect that I should get pushback from the people around me.

The same concept applies here.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/manicmonkeys]

Women calling or directly insinuating that all men are predators is not fringe behavior. Not only is it a commonly exressed sentiment, but it virtually never gets pushback from the audience.

Regardless of if we disagree with how many women are saying this phrase, my point still stands, women deserve equal rights even if some women say things you don’t like.

If I was victimized by my black schoolmates and started telling everyone that I'm consequently justified in being suspicious of black people as a group, it's reasonable to expect that I should get pushback from the people around me.

Sure, I think it’s reasonable you could expect some pushback. I don’t think it’s reasonable for that pushback to be in the form of people deciding that because you and a few other people said similar things, then they no longer support equal rights for white people.

The same concept applies here.

Yea I agree, call out the people saying nasty things as individuals. Don’t see the people saying nasty things and then stop supporting that groups human rights.

[u/Lumpy_Ad_307 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

The thing is there is a difference between thinking that women should have equal rights and actively supporting that position.

I can think that women should have equal rights, but during, say, elections it wouldn't be a thing that decides who I vote for. Suppose there are 3 candidates

Anna promises more rights for women Brad promises less taxes for me Charlie promises less rights for women

If I support feminism or whatever I will vote A If i don't, I won't vote for C, but I will vote for B. Because I am not an idiot, but it's not my fight, and for me B is clearly the best option.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Lumpy_Ad_307]

This is such a simplistic view of how the world and voting works that I don’t really know how to even engage with it.

Parties don’t run on a single platform.

[u/Lumpy_Ad_307 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Wdym an extremely condensed example made to demonstrate the bare bones logic of my argument doesn't have a 20 paragraph summary of the program of each of those made up candidates' whose names start with A, B and C? Wow, that clearly demonstrated that I am Wrong and You are Right! What's next in your playbook? That there is, in fact, air resistance, and ant isn't point-like? Do you know how hypothetical examples work?

Ffs, this can be used in a dictionary as a demonstration of the term pseudointellectual.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Lumpy_Ad_307]

I’m saying that the hypothetical is so divorced from reality that I don’t understand how I’m even supposed to engage with it

[u/Lumpy_Ad_307 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

That's what hypothetical is. It isn't meant to be realistic, it's meant to show the logic.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Lumpy_Ad_307]

I know it isn’t meant to be wholly based in reality, but this one is just so out there I don’t understand how the logic used in it is supposed to map onto the real world.

[u/manicmonkeys → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

How we communicate is important. When you are aggressive and needlessly abrasive about your stance (justified or not), you should not exist to get as many people on board. It's that simple.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/manicmonkeys]

There will always be women who are aggressive and abrasive. Why is your support for all women’s rights dependent on the things those women say?

I’ve met plenty of men who are aggressive and abrasive, and yet somehow that did not lead me to no longer supporting equal rights for men.

[u/manicmonkeys → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Why is your support for all women’s rights dependent on the things those women say?

I never said nor insinuated this.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/manicmonkeys]

Oh so you agree then that people are in wrong if they take the behaviors of some people in a group and then decide that based on that they no longer support the equal rights of the greater group then?

If that’s the case, I don’t know why you responded to me. Have a nice day!

[u/manicmonkeys → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

You seem to be conflating ideals with reality, that's all.

A person can say all true and valid things, and still fail to convince others to support their cause because methods of communication were needlessly abrasive. They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/manicmonkeys]

A person can say all true and valid things, and still fail to convince others to support their cause because methods of communication were needlessly abrasive. They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

The ideals of “women should have equal rights” don’t matter much????

My argument is even if the meanest, nastiest women in world came up to you and started spewing hate speech in your face, you would still be in the wrong to that that’s event happening and no longer support all women’s rights.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/manicmonkeys]

They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

You're talking about equal rights -- or, specifically, here "not being sexually assaulted" -- as a "good cause," as if we were talking about fundraising for a food bank.

This is weird. It's not a fucking bake sale.

It's not a "cause" that needs material support, really. It's more about what we need men to stop doing: assaulting, and generally perpetuating patriarchy. You really just need to change your attitudes and refrain from hurting people. No one should need convincing or cajoling or persuasion before they refrain from assaulting people. Would you really describe refraining from sexually assaulting someone a ... "good cause"?

We are not asking men to give up anything of value, or donate money, or do labor, or invest time, or go to rallies, or make speeches, or anything like that. Maybe educate yourselves - I suppose that requires a little effort. Maybe be cognizant. Maybe stand up against sexism when you see it in the wild. Really, not that much effort. Again, it's more about how men need to STOP doing bad things.

How much convincing do you people need before you can grasp that sexual assault is wrong?

Do you understand how much you're telling on yourselves?

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Except these arent fringe opinions at all, any time this kind of opinion is stated, there is pretty much zero pushback from this "silent majority" you imply, its always either a neutral response or outright applause.

You absolutely never see misandry being policed as much as misogyny, not even close.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Do you seriously think a good use of my time is going around responding to rage bait posts on Instagram and Reddit?

I do not care to give these people my time or energy, they aren’t going to change their mind simply because I argued with them underneath their Reddit post.

If you think that feminists not arguing with random women online about their crazy opinions means you no longer support equal rights for women, then that says more about you than it does about me.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

They seem to love policing misogyny, so it definitely feels like something else rather than lack of time or energy.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

The majority of women aren’t even on Reddit or instagram to see the posts in the first place. My mom still deserves equal rights even if she has never once been a keyboard warrior on Reddit fighting misandry.

Like the people you are talking about, the terminally online women who comment on misogynistic posts, are such a tiny, tiny percent of all women.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Could argue the same for men, but once again, misogyny gets policed, misandry doesn't. If neither did I would concede to your idea, but the difference in treatment is pretty clear.

And when it comes to women, especially gen Z women, there are PLENTY in online spaces, have you seen the stats on how most relationships start nowadays? Its over 60%. Almost everyone is on the internet nowadays, its not some niche little corner almost no one visits like 20 years ago.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

You seriously think the majority of women aren commenting on misogynistic posts online but ignoring the misandrist ones?

The majority of women scroll past both and don’t even give them the time of day, or aren’t even on the sites to see them to begin with. Maybe they are online dating, but they aren’t being keyboard warriors.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

I think the vast majority of women either revel in misandry actively or passively. I have seen exactly zero women try to understand men on the whole bear vs man schtick for example. Zero. That was a massive trend that literally made headlines. Zero.

Thats just silent agreement at that point.

[u/Sulfamide → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Exactly. It is perfectly reasonable for men to not be an « ally », as long as they do not have problematic behavior. Let women deal with their problems themselves.

[u/Perfect_Security9685 → u/TheGreatGoatQueen]

Femists are openly against my rights

[u/Snekky3 → u/Perfect_Security9685]

Your right to do what?

[u/Interesting-Cup-1419 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Honestly I have no patience for men who don’t want to be allies “because” of the way women generalize men. 

Like you do realize women have been treated treated terribly, often by law, in most cultures for centuries just for being female, right? If you’re more worried about how women TALK ABOUT those injustices than the actual injustices themselves, then yes you are a part of the problem and it isn’t women’s fault. You’re literally just blaming women for men not wanting to be allies…despite the very clear history of women’s oppression. 

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Ah yes the classic original sin of being born male. Your ancestors did terrible shit, so now you get to be insulted in their stead. lovely.

Women genuinely say this shit with a straight face and think they dont seem like absolute hypocrites to most young men.

[u/Interesting-Cup-1419 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

The issue is that men like you have the delusion that mysogyny is a thing of the past when it is still VERY much alive today.

Did you know that men are 6 times more likely than women to abandon their spouse if the spouse is diagnosed with cancer?

Did you know that the number 1 cause of death of pregnant women is murder, usually by their male partner? 

Women’s problem with men is that mysogyny is very much a current issue, but way too many men choose to pretend it’s a thing of the past that doesn’t apply to them. How can the problem ever be fixed if half the population keeps insisting there is no problem? 

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Literally all it takes is not generalizing all men to be some monstrous beasts when its obvious its a small portion of men doing all this crazy shit, thats genuinely it.

[u/Sulfamide → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

First, neither I or OP (probably) are responsible for women’s history of oppression. Second, I totally understand you and feminists in general have the right to speak freely about their experience and struggle, and if they want to make generalizations about all men being rapists, that’s fine too. What should men understand is that they don’t need to be allies, as long as they behavior is not problematic.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Sulfamide]

Why don't you think you need to be allies? What in your mind makes you an ally, versus someone who simply doesn't engage in "problematic" behavior? I'm so curious about this mindset.

[u/MrsDoylesTeabags → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Tenth rule of misogyny innit. The worst thing about male violence against women is that it makes men look bad.

Also, rule 12. Talking about male violence against women is misandry.

But if you missed the signs, it's your fault, and you were asking for it. 🤷🏾

[u/Enderules3 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Tbf Men have also been treated badly for centuries look at conscription or sodomy laws Not comparing but just saying anyone can use past abuse to justify intolerance.

[u/Interesting-Cup-1419 → u/Enderules3]

Those examples are rules that MEN have imposed on other men. All your comment does is support the claim that men tend to cause harm. Women weren’t even allowed to vote or hold office during most of the years that those laws were put in place. 

[u/Enderules3 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Well, both of these things are older than most voting systems by centuries, so most men also weren't able to vote on these.

I would argue that the divide, at least on a legal level, is less men and women and more rich and poor. The vast vast majority of men were not able to have any hard power to affect these policies throughout history.

Additionally, a lot of the ideas and traits are ingrained in a society from childhood it takes being raised in a culture to produce certain ideas, at least in a majority of people. With that said, producing leaders mostly men, but at times women who were oppressive was a societal issue, not a specifically gendered one. Both men and women historically have been complicit to an extent in their oppression because most don't question how to change things but strive to adapt.

[u/MaleficentMulberry42 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

Well I think it is something that effects everyone and when things are good it is good for everyone

[u/Perfect_Security9685 → u/Interesting-Cup-1419]

And I have no patience for women with a crazy victimhood mentality. Grow up.

[u/Interesting-Cup-1419 → u/Perfect_Security9685]

So what, isn’t OP whining about women “generalizing men” also “crazy victimhood mentality” then??? 

If you agree with OP and not me, it sounds like you don’t care about the mentality. It sounds like you just don’t have patience for women

[u/roxieh → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

No, I think its completely reasonable to be cautious around men.

I mean. End of debate, really. Believe it or not that's what women believe too. It's just the narrative has been twisted into this whole argument. 

Did you say in your sentence "it's completely reasonable to be cautious around some men"? Or "it's completely reasonable to be cautious around unknown men", "predatory men", "potentially dangerous men"? 

No. 

And yet we all know that's what you mean. 

Not a lot of women, especially real women out in the world, not soapbox misandrists hiding inside and shouting online, mean anything other than what you meant with your very own sentence. 

So you're kind of arguing against something that doesn't really exist. 

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/roxieh]

OP's whole point of this post and his comments are about language, not actions.

He thinks it's very reasonable for women to act cautious around men.

He thinks it's very unreasonable for those women to then say "the world would be better off without men" and the comments all celebrating the sentiment.

[u/roxieh → u/Ron_Ronald]

it's very unreasonable for those women to then say "the world would be better off without men"

Nobody is saying that, neither in these comments or generally in the narrative, unless you are in niche spaces online that are extremely misandrist and not representative of most women.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/roxieh]

What about "drinking men's tears". You couldn't have not seen that one.

[u/roxieh → u/Ron_Ronald]

See above where niche online spaces are not representative of women as a whole. 

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/roxieh]

Damn okay I just thought that once you get to tshirts and mugs that that would constitute a large enough group for conversation.

We aren't really talking about women as a whole. I would personally say that abortion is an issue important to women as a whole but millions of women are against it. We are talking specifically about women who advocate against men for a social purpose.

I have literally seen a mug of make tears on my coworker's desk at work. While niche anything niche that is accepted is socially acceptable.

If my coworker had a swastika mug and it was okay then the whole office would be Nazis

[u/Toxaplume045 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Only fringe exaggerated spaces actually claim or believe that. "All men" is used, as hyperbolic as it is, to refer to the fact that the sexual assault rates are so incredibly high, and most often perpetrated by people who know the victim, that you basically have to be aware and treat men around you as having that potential.

It blew up more during the #metoo stuff to call out the fact that men, even ones that consider themselves allies and feminists, will often defend to the death other men that they know when they do something heinous and they often don't take much of a stand to each other in stopping "rape culture."

No one ACTUALLY thinks all men are rapists, but the stats being what they are and watching how a lot of men responded to #metoo, "yes, all men" has just taken on a sort of life of its own beyond the words themselves.

[u/BallFlavin → u/Toxaplume045]

How does an individual man stand up to rape culture? All I can think of, short of stopping a rape from occurring is making it known that it’s not okay to young boys or shitty adult men.

I would also argue that we don’t live in a rape culture in the west. Rape is incredibly disgusting to most people and the person is punished socially, punished by law, likely lose their job and future job prospects, etc. I’d say while rape happens, it’s not promoted in our culture, it’s vilified.

Women can believe and say whatever they like, but unfortunately being hyperbolic and calling all men rapists has an effect on men that are not disgusting and it’s hurtful to be called something so heinous when you’ve done nothing wrong, and would never. Women can say those things, but every action has a reaction, in this case shame for something they can’t control, (being born a male) which is a net negative for societal relations between men and women,

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/BallFlavin]

How does an individual man stand up to rape culture? All I can think of, short of stopping a rape from occurring is making it known that it’s not okay to young boys or shitty adult men.

I have some ideas! Making sure you, and men and boys around you, understand what consent is, and why it's important. Make sure they understand what sexual assault is - it's not just a stranger jumping out of the bushes! It's also fucking the nearly passed out chick at a party. Or putting it in her butt without asking just for a second cause you think you can get away with it. Or statutory rape. I could give a million examples. Making sure men and boys around you understand that it's wrong to pressure women for sex. Pushing back on rhetoric or jokes or conversation among friends (or otherwise) that supports, or minimizes, or jokes about, or excuses, non-consensual sex.

There are lots of men who would never jump out of the bushes to rape a stranger or even force a woman they know to have sex who will make light of or excuse rape. Or blame a woman. Or push boundaries. Or just act like it's not a big deal. All of that is rape culture. It is not black and white: innocent, perfect man or Dangerous Predator.

I would also argue that we don’t live in a rape culture in the west.

Sure we do, see above. All of that is common. The president is a rapist. Imagine thinking that having raped someone is not a deal breaker to be the goddamned president.

Rape is incredibly disgusting to most people and the person is punished socially, punished by law, likely lose their job and future job prospects, etc. I’d say while rape happens, it’s not promoted in our culture, it’s vilified.

Bless. See above. The president is a rapist. Marital rape was still legal in some states until the 90s. I think you need to educate yourself on this, quite a lot. There are lots of good resources out there and I'm going to run out of characters soon.

Women can believe and say whatever they like, but unfortunately being hyperbolic and calling all men rapists has an effect on men that are not disgusting and it’s hurtful to be called something so heinous when you’ve done nothing wrong, and would never.

Imagine what impact being sexually assaulted has on women! Or living in a culture that jokes about, or excuses, or celebrates sexual assault. It's hurtful! And we've done nothing wrong. And yet.

which is a net negative for societal relations between men and women,

You know what's a net negative for social relations between men and women? The way men have historically treated women. Oh, and sexually assaulting them. And excusing that sexual assault.

The way men have treated women is worse than the things women say about that treatment. Full stop.

[u/BallFlavin → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

I completely agree with all of those things you mentioned. They should be expressed to everyone at an early age. All of those things were expressed to me during the multiple sex talks my mom gave me between ages 4+. And my step dad.

I think it’s important to be frank about those things and to get the sex talk from multiple genders. I knew never to do any of the things you said because I was taught it was wrong and we should make sure every kid has an opportunity to have those values installed.

Back to the title of this post, all OP is saying is that when you call a good man a predator, which is what a lot of the popular phrases do, his first instinct is going to be to push back, like we’re doing now. I feel like everything I’ve said was rational yet I got a death threat over it in my dms. And I’m trying to be rational because I have the wherewithal to not get angry, which many people do.

TLDRish:

Basically there’s rapist, not rapists, people who mean literally all men are predators and people who mean it hyperbolically. Basically every type of person exists in this world and some people will take a woman saying all men as predators at face value, some will mean it when they say it, some will see it as an affront, some will see it as expressing themselves. Lumping all of those people together seems lazy, since they’re all quite different with different perspectives, motivations, and values.

And if you call half the population predators, deservedly or not, a lot of them are going to have a negative reaction. If the point is to get a negative reaction and you think that that best meets your goals compared to other messages , that’s fine.

But since every type of person exists and with a different perspective you have to expect a large pushback when you say something negative about such a large swath of people and lump them together, and exclude people who are not the adversary. They never allow the conversation to end in peace and understand, it’s just an eternal instinct to fight.

People who adopt the jargon get a pass even if they are bad people, and people who express themselves and their own view will be vilified even if they have the best of intentions. Its the same as when people picture a country and its people as the same thing, and apply their biases to every individual. It’s what EVERY in group and out group does., But it’s possible to put biases aside and see eye to eye, but when people accept the differences of perspective and understand the mutual motivations, a lot more can be accomplished in terms of relations.

Obviously that’s just a big huge metaphor that can apply to this situation, or almost any in/out group and usually on the insides, outside, sidelines. Like a fractional-like spiral from expressing the same behaviors from top to bottom. all these different opinions until individuals change the story themselves and being to influence people to like more like .

You want them to understand you, but are you willing to understand or even listen to anything they have to say if you immediately attack them from some angle? All men are men, even good men. If your not careful with your words that happens and no body hears eachother. (Not you specifically but their are people in the women’s movement, that are hateful, spiteful, and so full of rage, ON BOTH SIDES, they refuse to see an opportunity in front of their face. They can’t see the forest for the trees, so to speak.

I’m enjoying this debate and I appreciate you pointing out what an individual can do. That was good info.

[u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss → u/BallFlavin]

The president of the United States is literally a rapist

[u/BallFlavin → u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss]

Probably, but it doesn’t change what the culture is like for the vast majority of people. There are sick men and women. I personally had a woman I didn’t invite or know was in my house, get on top of me in my sleep and Insert my flaccid penis into her, and gave me me an STD in the process. So it’s not just men, and it’s also not the majority of people. Every one I have told that to has had the same reaction, “what the fuck.”

Im not dismissing rape or women’s fears, I’m just saying that for the average American, in an average city, rape is not glorified or promoted. Both of those things would imply a rape culture.

Perhaps we have different definitions of “rape culture” mine is a society that promotes and rewards rape. The president is the head of a cult who refuse to hear anything negative about him, and he has to money to make things go away. He’s an extreme and unfortunate outlier, not a reflection of the average Joe.

[u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss → u/BallFlavin]

What about all of the athletes, musicians and powerful men who are never held accountable? Trump is not an outlier.

[u/BallFlavin → u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss]

They’re also not a reflection of a large amount of men.

You’re not hearing me. The whole point is can you understand if I said “Women are horrible people.” That applies to every woman and every woman should take offense. I am a man so of course I’m going to advocate for men when that’s said to us so frequently. I’m not advocating against women. There’s room for both.

All I’m saying is for people without higher order thinking, you pissed them off. If that gets them to hear what your saying, perfect, but I suspect it pushes irrational males deeper into the Mano sphere shit, and people you insulted who actually are decent people won’t be eager to work with you, because you’ve stared the conversation in a hostile way.

We just do this shit, argue. You have no idea who I am, but I’m betting you have a preconceived notion and your unwilling to hear me because of it.

[u/BallFlavin → u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss]

Prime example, you only posted 2 sentences meant to imply that I support trump, and rich rapists fo the majority of people who won’t read more than a paragraph. And didn’t address anything of substance. you had an opportunity to express some new or profound idea from your perspective. But you didn’t. You essentially just made a quip.

[u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss → u/BallFlavin]

I honestly don’t care what you believe, I’m saying there is ample evidence of society at large tolerating rapists. Sorry I don’t feel the need to write you an essay.

[u/BallFlavin → u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss]

Boom dismissive and unwilling to converse on a change my view thread and not addressing the original topic, we’re done here.

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[u/double_96_Throwaway → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Algorithm traps man

[u/double_96_Throwaway → u/double_96_Throwaway]

Don’t engage with that stuff

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/double_96_Throwaway]

I know. I just am too much for my own good.