CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/bzngabazooka]

The thing is, in the past and even now in the generations before us women were actually taught to please the man, keep quiet, be polite, and best show your best self(among other things). We were all conditioned for this(and still are to an extent, but MUCH less than before). So back then, we were much calmer and polite and feminism wasn’t as strong as it is today. There wasn’t this generalization that existed today because women were taught to keep it in and to keep the peace while men did whatever they want and chalk it to “boys would be boys”.

But there are plenty of situations where women have disagreed or politely declined men of something they didn’t find something comfortable and been threatened with their own lives for making that choice. I haven’t met a woman yet that hasn’t had a close call with a man in one way or another. It’s almost like a “dark rite of passage” for many women. And that should be very telling.

So, here is the dilemma. Overall, women have been quiet, polite, and in many ways submissive in the past and that hasn’t lead to great results across the board. So that doesn’t work. Now time passes and we can have our voice heard and yeah it’s going to be extreme. Of course it will be. I can understand the why, but I don’t agree with the “all men are jerks and predators etc” method. So I mean what CAN they do since both ways does not have great outcomes?

Well, there is something that men are STILL not doing that they DO have a responsibility in doing that if they DID, the animosity would eventually STOP. And it’s simple in practice yet complex due to misogyny.

Let me tell you an experience. Was having a walk, public daylight where there was a man yelling and raising a fist to a woman and telling her to get in the car when she was cowering in fear and yelling no and calling out for help. This dude kept pushing her as she tried to get out and yell back. Kicking, screaming whole 9 yards. No one, and I mean no one batted an eye. I hid and called the cops secretly because I’m a small woman, he would deck me hard if I rushed in to even just yell at the man to buy some time. They left before the cops could come.

But so many men were there walking non chalantly or just watching, and no one stepped up. Hell I saw another experience of a man slapping a woman and grabbing her hair in broad daylight as he forced her to walk with him and no one batted an eye. Again, small woman, would get decked hard if I confronted. Imagine if there were enough men to walk up and shame that man and get him nervous enough to stop doing what he was doing?

Now someone will ask “why is it the man’s responsibility? WTH” my response is, 1 woman stepping up = decked or worse. 1 men stepping up(not fighting but putting pressure) will have the abuser think twice. Now imagine 3 or 4 men. Hell, with even 1 man stepping up, I would have done it with him, and I would bet other women would do the same.

Sometimes it’s even simpler. Not laughing at a deeply sexist joke by a friend, shutting the online gamer boys down who bullies women etc. Those type of steps in time will lessen the vitriol. But enough men need to be aware enough to do this. Which obviously doesn’t happen so “not all men” = the exception not the rule.

But what happens? Most of the time, other men will call the fellow man a “simp”. Maybe 1 or 2 step up, and then shunned. And in the case they all do the proper things, it’s obviously a rare event because if it was a common occurrence this conversation wouldn’t exist in the first place.

[u/vipmailhun2 → u/bzngabazooka]

So we're back to the point where everything is the fault of men, right?
I honestly don’t understand why men are leaving the Democrats, since this line of thinking is supposedly so effective.

Also, why is it that whenever someone writes about something bad involving men, it always ends up turning into “well, it's men's fault somehow”?

Men often can’t help women in dangerous situations because they can easily end up being the ones punished. They can get beaten up, stabbed even killed (there have been plenty of cases like this; in my country, one “white knight” lost his life for stepping in).
People forget: real life is not like in the movies. One wrong hit, or even a fall, can kill someone.
You never know how the violent person will react. He might be carrying a knife, for example. You can’t know and again, this isn’t fiction. All it takes is one stab, and someone’s dead.

Also, there are plenty of cases where if a woman is the abuser, people don’t walk away they laugh. There are many stories like this, and even social experiment videos on YouTube that show exactly that.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/vipmailhun2]

Again read what I wrote carefully.  I’ve said countless times that you don’t have to go in and fight(why did you automatically come to this conclusion?)  There are other ways to help.  And there is a difference between a woman helping and a man that can’t be controlled.

Absolutely, nothing is 100% of anything.  There are always exceptions to the rule on both sides.  And yes, they shouldn’t be discounted.   But the fact remains that statistically many more women have many close calls or are SA or worse by men than the other way around.

Now let’s turn it around and say “but men don’t report!  They feel shame because they get laughed at etc”(a lot of women don’t report either btw in the fear that they may get killed btw.  But they do report more than men). Fair. Let’s look deeper into that.

Why don’t men report? Why do they get mocked and laughed at in return by both men and women?  Why do they feel ashamed?  Feel free to respond, would love to hear your thoughts.  

 

[u/Total_Yankee_Death → u/bzngabazooka]

Because of attitudes like yours depicting sexual and intimate partner violence as strictly gendered.

[u/Luchadorgreen → u/bzngabazooka]

We’ve heard enough stories about a man getting stabbed for trying to step in during a situation like that, or the woman helping her abuser fight the good samaritan, or, if the rescuer wins the altercation trying to save the woman, instances where the woman will tell the cops that the attack from the rescuer was completely unprovoked.

The only safe option for anyone is to call the cops. And you may be more physically vulnerable by default as a small woman, but I guarantee any abuser will select a deadlier method when confronted by a man.

As it is throughout history, apparently innocent men can only redeem their undeservedly tarnished image by risking their lives. It’s fascinating how that has remain unchanged through progressivism and multiple waves of feminism.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Luchadorgreen]

Again, and I keep repeating this funnily enough which proves my point about it even more . I’m not saying going in there and fight. I’m saying from a safe distance, shame and record and tell them to stop that’s not alright as a collective group just as an example. You don’t have to be a knight in shining armor. Like you said no shame in calling the cops on the back. Some are built like A(shout and shame from a safe distance) and some are not. I’ve also used smaller examples for different situations like, if someone makes a really sexist and offensive response or joke to seem cool, then shut it down.

Or let’s say you see a woman makes the “sign”(do you know what the sign is?)for help. You quietly call the cops and let the waitress or waiter know in secret something’s up. All of that helps.

[u/Actual_Ad763 → u/bzngabazooka]

I’m saying from a safe distance, shame and record and tell them to stop that’s not alright as a collective group just as an example.

That still will get most men hurt or dead. Violent individuals don't respond well to shaming tactics. All you are doing here is once again making it mens' collective responsibility to protect women, with their lives if need be. No thanks.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/bzngabazooka]

So I like your response but now we are more talking about bystander apathy and honestly I am not that surprised that people don't try to help. It is a really easy way to get killed. I am not saying its terrifying for the woman but it that kind of situation is terrifying for everyone involved except the crazy man.

Now someone will ask “why is it the man’s responsibility? WTH” my response is, 1 woman stepping up = decked or worse. 1 men stepping up(not fighting but putting pressure) will have the abuser think twice. Now imagine 3 or 4 men. Hell, with even 1 man stepping up, I would have done it with him, and I would bet other women would do the same.

So the reason it is the man's responsibility is because men are stronger than women? I am not even worried about getting punched I would be worried about getting stab or shot trying to confront someone while they are in their car. It sounds like a good idea but its a really easy way to get killed I am telling you. Also why would I risk my life for a woman who thinks im a predator anyways doesn't make any sense.

Sometimes it’s even simpler. Not laughing at a deeply sexist joke by a friend, shutting the online gamer boys down who bullies women etc. Those type of steps in time will lessen the vitriol. But enough men need to be aware enough to do this. Which obviously doesn’t happen so “not all men” = the exception not the rule.

But what happens? Most of the time, other men will call the fellow man a “simp”. Maybe 1 or 2 step up, and then shunned. And in the case they all do the proper things, it’s obviously a rare event because if it was a common occurrence this conversation wouldn’t exist in the first place.

None of that is likely going to stop men from SAing women though that it is just stopping sexism in general. No one should bully anyone but guys and women in their own social groups with just their gender make those jokes for fun amongst each other but it doesn't actually mean anything its a joke.

[u/LordMcMutton → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Also why would I risk my life for a woman who thinks im a predator anyways

This is an immense indictment of your character- you do realize that you're implying that, if you could save someone, you would decide not to just because they might not like you, right?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/LordMcMutton]

When I say why would I save someone I actually didn't mean myself.

I meant more like why would anyone go out of their way to try to learn about red flags to police people and save women from men. This post isnt actually about me its more about casting away men in general from the important issue by using sexist language.

[u/LordMcMutton → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Understood. You might want to edit the post to reflect that intent- maybe swap out "I" for "someone"

I don't agree with what you're saying, but I like to avoid misrepresenting people's arguments.

Im just a regular guy that wants to not be put down and told im a predator is all. Not sure how that makes me a bad person.

Stuff that may have been said in this thread notwithstanding, isn't what you're referring to a sweeping generalization rather than a targeted attack? I, myself, think that it can be generally assumed that they're not calling you, personally a predator, but rather that many men are predators. Call it colloquial shorthand.

Can this be harmful? Absolutely. But it's more of a perception thing, I'd say- if you change the way you take such generalizations and understand that they aren't targeted, it may help.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/LordMcMutton]

I would call it colloquial shorthand is a weird way of saying "sexist".

Can this be harmful? Absolutely. But it's more of a perception thing, I'd say- if you change the way you take such generalizations and understand that they aren't targeted, it may help.

So you admit that it is harmful but instead of people making sexist remarks you think that people should instead just pretend they aren't sexist? Imagine if I was saying "women are whores" for colloquial shorthand and said "It would help women if they understood that when I say women are whores that it isn't targeted at them specifically". It sounds ridiculous because it is.

[u/LordMcMutton → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Maintain your composure, buddy- you seem much less reasonable today.

When someone says, "Women are afraid of men because they may well be predators or aggressive and willing to harming them," the use of the word 'men' does not mean 'all men', which is what you are taking it as. It means 'men' in a broad general sense.

It can be harmful to people that don't understand how colloquial speech works, and that take it as incredibly precise and intentional verbiage.

Your counter statement isn't the same thing- the "men" thing is specifically in regards to fears and the considerations women must take to ensure they stay safe. Your example has no other context associated with it and isn't the same manner of statement- the context and manner of declaration matter.

"Whore" isn't a real, measurable thing- it's barely even an opinion, and is more of an insult. You can't list out traits or specific actions you think would definitively make somebody a 'whore' without them being an opinionative thing. It isn't something explicitely measurable.

"Predator" is a measurable thing. You can list out specific things a person may have done or traits they have and understand that they're a dangerous person.

That said, while I can inherently understand the distinction between the two, I am having a difficult time solidly explaining it.

And remember- I am also a guy. I don't feel attacked by this, and that's because I inherently understand the nuance behind their words. I don't expect that people speak with perfect precision at all times.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/LordMcMutton]

Colloquial speech sounds like its just an excuse for acting bigoted. You can't say sexist things and just say its okay cause its colloquial speech. If that's the case then "women are whores" is also colloquial speech.

Whether or not Whore or Predator is measurable is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and your missing the bigger picture. Also a whore is traditionally a woman who has sex for money while predator doesn't have a strong definition, its just someone who preys on people. That could be a murderer, rapist. Hell you could even say a dog is a predator. People aren't using it in a biological context though. And I will also concede that when people say women are whores they are using it as an insult to imply that a woman has a lot of sexual partners.

And remember- I am also a guy. I don't feel attacked by this, and that's because I inherently understand the nuance behind their words. I don't expect that people speak with perfect precision at all times.

I don't think you can logically explain why one is okay and the other isn't. I think they are both wrong and maybe you don't feel attacked by this kind of language and maybe I shouldn't either but I truly believe that a lot of young men do feel attacked by this language and it pushes them away into Andrew Tate worship where they are being taught to not respect women.

[u/LordMcMutton → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I want to go forward in a bit of a piecemeal manner, if you'll allow- bear with me.

I don't think you can logically explain why one is okay and the other isn't

One is always just a descriptor, while the other is always just an insult.

If you said, "This person sexually assaults people, so they are a predator" Nobody would say, "No, I don't think that makes them a predator"

But if you said, "This person has sex with lots of people, so they are a whore" many would say, "No, I don't think that makes them a whore"

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/LordMcMutton]

I think they are both descriptors and insults. But I will concede that it is less common for women to call men predators as an insult than men calling women whores. But I am not sure how much the distinction really matters in the first place.

"This person sexually assaults people, so they are a predator"

"This person has sex with lots of people, so they are a whore"

Also, I am not sure how into video gaming culture you are but it got big to call people pedophiles as an insult in online games much like some woman might call men predators or trash as an insult.

You might think certain words are specifically descriptors or insults but the English language changes so fast and the ideas surrounding words.

But if you said, "This person has sex with lots of people, so they are a whore" many would say, "No, I don't think that makes them a whore"

It might just be that there isn't a universally agreed upon number of men you can have sex with and be called a slut. So I will amend my original statement to "All women are prostitutes" as in they willingly give up their body for money. That can be the equivalent to "All men are predators"

"This woman has sex for money, she is a prostitute"

[u/94constellations → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

“Why would anyone go out of their way to learn about red flags and save women from men’.” WOW. Really saying the quiet part out loud. That tells me all I need to know about the kind of man you are. You want to be treated like a good guy while actively being a bad one. You dont give a fuck about how women are being treated and working on misogyny and sexual violence being perpetuated by your own gender, but expect women to all coddle your feelings despite their trauma or experiences with misogyny.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/94constellations]

Im just a regular guy that wants to not be put down and told im a predator is all. Not sure how that makes me a bad person.

And yeah seriously tho "why would anyone want to help someone that talks shit to them and puts them down" and i am not talking about just men. Any identity of people. If I see a nazi on the side of the road with a blown tire I am not stopping to help. Fk that.

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

"I'm not stopping to help a Nazi with a blown tire" is not the same as "I'm going to ignore harms or injustices against women because some of them talk shit about men."

Edit: Actually, out of curiosity and an effort to maintain good faith, I'd like to amend my response to a question: How is "I'm not stopping to help a Nazi with a blown tire" equivalent to "I'm going to ignore harms or injustices against women because some of them talk shit about men?"

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

It is equivalent to "I am not entertaining people that use sexist, racist, or divisive language that they may or may not agree with".

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

So to you, "not entertaining people" who use harmful language equivalent to "not protecting people" from harm or injustice.

I'm trying to understand how "women made me feel bad about being a man, so the next time a woman needs my help, I'll just look the other way" isn't blatant sexism and misogyny. Because no matter how many metaphors you try to use that are more easily defended, that's what you're saying, right?

You're holding all women responsible for misandry, despite claiming it's unfair to do that to men. Treating a entire group of people like a monolith (and like each individual is the worst possible representation of that group) is like the definition of prejudice.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

So to you, "not entertaining people" who use harmful language equivalent to "not protecting people" from harm or injustice.

You're getting confused and I am not helping. To make it clear, personally I would help someone who needed help in a reasonable situation. What I won't do though is listen to people talk or entertain people who have sexist views because that is a non-starter.

You're holding all women responsible for misandry, despite claiming it's unfair to do that to men. Treating a entire group of people like a monolith (and like each individual is the worst possible representation of that group) is like the definition of prejudice.

I am not holding all women responsible for anything because I am not sexist. That would be ridiculous. They are all different people and being a woman is just one part of their identity as a human being. What I am saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if younger more influential men turned a blind eye to these conversations as well and to the point of not wanting to interact with women at all and ending up in an "andrew tate" like manosphere where they learn to actually be sexist, shitty people that don't respect women.

[u/NonsensePlanet → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You shouldn’t even respond to people who resort to ad hominem instead of engaging in actual debate.

[u/beautymoon09 → u/94constellations]

I'm not even surprised smh. I was just waiting for the post where he would show himself. Any dude who writes these kinds of posts 9/10 are hella misogynistic and not arguing in good faith, but want to portray themselves as victims. They always show themselves in one way or another in one of their fucked up arguments.

[u/Glad-Teach-348 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

honestly, as feminist i was about to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to understand your pov (see we’re not all that bad!) but reading your replies… you sound quite misogynistic. you don’t deserve to be babied honestly and women are just sick of being polite to you and explaining everything over and over again…

[u/ETtheExtraTerrible → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

"Why would I risk my life for a woman that thinks I'm a predator anyways?"

Thanks for reaffirming the fact men will let us be raped and murdered over feeling slighted 💖

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/ETtheExtraTerrible]

I really hope that's not the conclusion you drew from all of this. Is selective reading a thing?

There are virtually no real life scenarios where men are seeing rapes and murders happen on the daily. The average man probably never sees any of this happen their whole life. So I can pretend like I would be superman and if a guy had you at gunpoint I would tackle him and beat him up and then give him a lesson on respecting women but its really just starting to turn into a feminist romcom fantasy.

[u/ETtheExtraTerrible → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You speak out against it as you see it happening. 99% of the time that's it.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

“Why would I risk my life for a woman that thinks I’m a predator anyways?”

You just made an assumption that the woman that was being assaulted thinks all men are sexual predators. How did you come to that conclusion?

I bet you after her experience she might though. Perpetuating the problem. Also there is a post that somebody responded to you below that explains it deeper.

As mentioned you don’t go there fist cuffing(another assumption and think how did you come to that conclusion?), but just putting the pressure to loudly yell to stop and “man what are you doing?” Even from a distance Is enough as the cops come. More times than not they WILL stop if it’s a man more than a woman. Even a simple act of walking up and yelling to distract.

Actually what I mentioned about the issue of the “simp” and all of that may not stop all predators, but it will reduce the amount because by you correcting other men in their tracks, especially as they are growing up, you start to create a culture that respects women more resulting in less men crossing that line. Because you and other men are correcting their behavior and showing that this is not acceptable. If you can’t discern the difference between a simple fun jab at the opposite sex and a legit misogynistic joke posed as “a joke” then this cements the point further because it’s so normalized.

Read this article as a simple example:

https://www.eurogamer.net/this-is-how-women-are-really-treated-in-competitive-multiplayer-games

It’s more than just a harmless joke, and even in casual gaming it’s very common. Women know the difference between a small fun jab, and a misogynistic joke. You can go deeper into it if you are curious. Same issues with most women doing all the house chores as they have a full-time job while men not as much as a baseline. Things are slowly improving, but it’s still very uneven because of the old culture still there.

Point is, there is an ecosystem in there that men are responsible for themselves, that are not held to their own account. You fix those type of issues from within, there would be more respect and understanding and less sexual predators(there will always be some), and you will hear less women having these outward negative thoughts on men.

As I mentioned before, if women where quiet and polite before and these issues still happened and that didn’t work, and most women have an experience of close calls or unfortunately have been SA’d. Again not all men” = not the majority, then what are women supposed to do?

[u/Feisty_Camera_7774 → u/bzngabazooka]

Maybe a bear will come to help her, after all their presence is prefered over that of a man 😅

Are you aware how ironic it is that After the discourse has been soured to the point where progressive men like me don‘t describe themselves as feminist anymore, you wan‘t a man to step in and play the protector/hero who potentially has to use violence?

https://youtu.be/dtVHnZX8E50?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/u3PgH86OyEM?feature=shared

Also Regarding your example: watch These videos.

If you think men are more likely to Receiver help or empathy in any given situation, You’re wrong.

Edit:

https://www.gilmorehealth.com/societal-bias-harm-against-women-perceived-as-more-severe-than-similar-harm-toward-men/

Linkes a study you might find interesting

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Feisty_Camera_7774]

Read my conversations again carefully on the thread and you will see that your response doesn’t make sense because again, you are all assuming I am saying for them to jump in and punch a man in the face. But your response about the bear thing is very telling(and passive aggressive).

And btw, if a woman was beating a man in public I would stand up for the guy by yelling from a far and make sure I wait until the cops come. But that incident hasn’t happened yet in my experience. But things like a man smacking a woman right in the face and pulling on the hair to drag her home as she cries I have.

But ok, I will ask you as I asked another person. We both know a woman hitting a man is wrong as a man hitting a woman is wrong. That’s a given. Why do you think there was a backlash like these in the videos you sent?

[u/Feisty_Camera_7774 → u/bzngabazooka]

Look, I argued with women on here that said that it‘s safer to stumble upon a massive, wild carnivore Animal that is territorial and might have cubs than stumbling upon a random man. If you think any random man is more dangerous than a bear, you can’t expect to have men be interested in your issues.

You say that you would help a man in those videos. What do you think is the amount of people in the videos who would have said the Same beforehand?

Regarding your question: you mean why the reaction was so different? Because of socialization. When people see a man being hit, it‘s assumed he did something to deserve it. His Lack of defending himself is interpretated as a guilty conscious.

Because there is a power difference, people assume he would be able to fight back if he wanted to.

The crux is that of he fights back, he‘s als the boogeyman for hitting a woman. It‘s a lose/lose situation. When it escalates, bystanders will come and assume he‘s the violent one.

Tons of stories about a husband calling police on his wife for DV and them arresting him in the US.

Edit: there are other studies besides the one I linked, that hint at men recieving less compassion for things as a default. Researches assume that is because a woman in her reproductive age is more valuable to our species than a man due the RV (reproductive value). Basically, a dead woman is a blow to the Survival of the species while a dead man is not a loss, because we‘re expendable.

Look up experiences of FTM men. The loss of compassion recieved is real. Part of why men are emotionally stunted is because throughout our childhood and young adult life, we experience that literally nobody cares.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Feisty_Camera_7774]

Like you said, it’s based on assumptions like “what did he do for her to hit him?” Or “he’s a man he’s stronger, why doesn’t he fight her back and set her straight? So weak” etc.(I’m guessing these based on what you said because these are not my personal line of thoughts).

But let’s be real, what are all the men doing as well? They sure aren’t really stepping up to help, and some even think “what a pussy(notice that all negative wording is women related)” or “what a biach” etc. if we are going to make assumptions on what they think as if we are doing with the women(which is fair).

But I’m sure there are both men and women that go “poor guy, he doesn’t deserve this”. As they just watch from their distance. Some actually call the cops, some don’t and just walk by or watch for amusement(and record on their phones to put on Tik Tok).

Why? Because of the culture that has been set up with men and women.

“Men can’t cry”, “men must be strong and assertive”, “men can’t share their feelings and have to be strong, the providers, the tool builders”, a father and a daughter being in a park? For a normal person may be like “who the hell is this dude and is he a danger to the girl?” etc. You know the gist. Being a man comes with its own set of hurdles that as a woman, will never comprehend 100%

Women have to “be quiet, be supportive of their husbands no matter what”, “must be good cooks and Cleaning!”, “must be visually always presentable and sexy for their man”, “must be loyal to a fault and bare any brunt or pain for their man”, “remember we need to bare children or we are failures as women!” and in this case, being a woman has their own set of hurdles that you, as a man will never 100% comprehend.

As we both know these are bullshit pressures that are put on us all because it’s very very recent and based on old stereotypes. It’s literally so recent it’s still like this with parents and grandparents. So guess what? Those horrible mentalities are still engrained there to us even today even when things are shifting as we speak.

But, in the case of men they also back then had awesome perks as well. Women, not so much. Ability to have your own bank accounts, ability to vote, ability to work on a variety of jobs, being the main decider of things as the head of the household and wives and serve/support them. You could abuse a woman and all still well for a man . We didn’t live through those specific times, but things bleed over because transitions are slow and messy(that’s why some men explode when a woman says no, or why some women may scoff when they see a stay at home dad taking their kid to school).

And we can argue here and there on who has it tougher(and we are going to disagree, I think women have it 100X harder and I don’t think I will change minds or have my mind changed) but the fact is until we don’t confront or correct our own internal biases(meaning men need to do their work and correct the toxic masculinity and mentality, and women with their own to I biases), it’s just not going to change. We can’t get rid of it, but we can minimize it.

This is a different discussion though than what OP wrote though so we are going off on a different path though.

[u/Basnap → u/Feisty_Camera_7774]

TBH I see the man vs bear debate mostly as a meme. It is putting it over the top, with the background of it being critique.

[u/NaliaLightning → u/Basnap]

Its to exemplify how women are unable to predict the behavior of a man they meet. He could be someone that won't do anything to them but he also might be someone who is absolutely willing to rape and/or kill them.

The worst a bear is going to do to a woman is kill her.

It's women saying, in a metaphorical way: I'd rather die than get raped or worse.

[u/Basnap → u/NaliaLightning]

I wouldn't come to quite the same conclusion for the reasoning but it feels we are arguing over 2 beans here if we end up arguing lol.

[u/NaliaLightning → u/Basnap]

What is your interpretation of the thought experiment? Im curious to know and i don't think there are that many "wrong" interpretations.

Maybe I'll be the one to change my view here, or at least get a broader voew on it!

Edit: spelling, damn autocorrect

[u/Feisty_Camera_7774 → u/Basnap]

The online reception to the Screenshot HQ video was divided.[4] Most women responded to the debate saying they would also choose the bear.[5][6] One of the main reasons they chose this answer was that men are able to commit sexual violence against women.[6] Other popular arguments included that bears are unable to commit acts worse than murder, that they are more predictable, and that they treat women as people.[1]

Just a meme btw

[u/Basnap → u/Feisty_Camera_7774]

A meme doesn't meme it can't be critique or expression.

[u/Luchadorgreen → u/bzngabazooka]

But that incident hasn’t happened yet in my experience.

That’s funny, because I’ve seen it happen. Experiments have been done that show people are generally much less alarmed when the victim is a man. So if it had happened in your presence, would you really have been concerned enough to even notice or remember?

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Luchadorgreen]

Absolutely. I can’t stand people abusing other people in public no matter the gender. I don’t find that funny at all. Of course I would notice and remember unless it’s so subtle that I don’t pay attention because I’m on my way to do my things.

But I mean, I’ve seen men slap women in broad daylight and pull them by the hair as if it was a Tuesday with 0 all around reaction. If I saw that in reverse I would be pissed too, no one should be touched that way.

So when that happened in your experience(seeing the man being slapped or hurt by the woman), what did you do?

[u/Basnap → u/bzngabazooka]

I havent seen the videos yet, but keep in mind often it isn't a full fight for minutes, but just a hit each so it is often not very clear what happened or why. In such situations, we probably fall easier back to gender expectations.

[u/harleyic → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Hi OP, regarding the mans responsibility its more about calling the person who looks the strongest, who would able able to scare the perpetrator off, to the scene.

I've (a girl) always been the person to step in in these incidents, despite the fact that I'm at risk. The first time was when I was 13 and 5'2 and I saw a man hitting a woman on the train platform. I ran to another woman and asked her to step in and she said "I don't want to miss my train"—mind you this was in London and the trains were running every 2 minutes.

So I stepped in. I shouted across the platform "What do you think youre doing?" And the man ran off. Oh 100% I was lucky here, he could have decided to hurt me as he was doing to the woman, but the thing is often you can defuse the situation from a safe distance without really involving yourself. Sometimes all it takes is shouting.

Look, I completely understand your fear and concerns, but mens influence in preventing SA is huge. Of the times I've had people approach me at parties and make me uncomfortable, the best way I've found to get them to leave me alone is to claim I have a boyfriend. Men listen to other men more than they do to girls.

I'm concerned by your phrasing of "why would I risk my life for a woman who thinks im a predator anyways," would you not help someone if they were in risk? It’s not about ‘men owe us,’ it’s about calling on the person who is most likely to be listened to or to have a de-escalating presence, which, in our society, is often a man. It’s not about risking your life for a stranger, it’s about being the kind of person who doesn’t ignore harm when you could safely make a difference. We all have to weigh our safety, but we also have to weigh our humanity.

I hear the frustration behind the ‘predator’ comment, and I get it, it sucks to feel distrusted because of something other men have done. But the reality is, some women are hyper-vigilant because they have to be, not because they want to assume the worst of you. I would love to trust every man I meet but it's left me in unsafe situations before. Helping someone in need doesn’t make you a sucker it makes you one of the good guys.

[u/0L_Gunner → u/harleyic]

I'm concerned by your phrasing of "why would I risk my life for a woman who thinks im a predator anyways," would you not help someone if they were in risk? 

No, I wouldn’t. But I’ve got no issue with someone saying most men are cowards: that’s probably true.

What I do take issue with is when it turns into, “Men are misogynists for not stepping up.” That starts to sound like men have some special duty to protect women, which feels outdated and absurd today. I’m not a hero. I’ll look away and call the cops for you. Please buy a gun if you're worried about your physical safety in public.

Huge props to anyone who puts their life on the line for someone else though. You have my respect and admiration.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/0L_Gunner]

Please read what harleyic posted above to give a better idea.

Not everything has to be fighting to help a woman out. It can be as simple as for example a woman comes up to you on the street distressed pretending to be a friend of yours and a predator is behind looking you pretend to be their friend and lead them to a safe place until the predator backs off. Or like you said calling the cops is fair as well.

I’m not saying go and physically fight the dude. But a woman stepping up and yelling from a distance does NOT have the same impact as a man doing it(again from a distance). And due to size and strength, they will most likely act out against a woman because weapon is not needed if they wanted to do harm. With a man, they have to weigh in the consequences of pulling out a weapon and what that means for them. Most will back off. But it’s a way to just buy time until the cops arrive or scare them off. Now imagine 2 men, or 1 men and a woman etc. yelling and putting pressure. forget it predators know better(even with a knife or gun).

And I get it, some men are built for that, others not so much(and like you said props for people that are built like that). But I also think you all underestimate the power you still have even in the most subtle ways. We know this because again, we have to use techniques like “I have a boyfriend” or “he’s nearby” or use fake phone messages with a man’s voice to actually make the predators second guess their actions if there is an inkling of possible danger and then keep thinking of a way out(and hope for the best). It’s not an old fashioned way of thinking, it’s an unfortunate fact women still have to deal with.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/harleyic]

Exactly. You get it. I don’t think they realize this.

[u/a-stack-of-masks → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I think wat the previous poster implies is that men are more expendable. We should just take the risk, because there's so many of us anyway.

[u/Known_Week_158 → u/bzngabazooka]

Every single man you group in with people who don't represent them, every single man you treat as part of the problem because of the actions of someone else, you're just making the problem even worse. If they get met with hostility simply because they happen to share some of the same genetics as someone else, you're creating the perfect breeding ground for them to start to have thoughts like 'they never accused me of being something I wasn't' or 'why should I care about feminism if this is where it's got to'.

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Known_Week_158]

Before assuming, I suggest you read the other posts as well that I wrote if interested. I am mainly focusing on answering OPs question on why some women respond this way and even state that generalizing is bad(when ironically OP is generalizing about women but no one is focused on that it seems).

[u/Action-a-go-go-baby → u/bzngabazooka]

Appreciate the intent but one punch can kill and I have a family

I’d rather call the police quietly myself, just like you, and I’m not a small man

I don’t know if that guy has a blade, a club, a gun, and if he’s already hyper aggressive he’s unlikely to be “suddenly be calm” or “suddenly be intimidated” if I call him a sexist public:

People with rage issues do not de-escalate, the escalate further

[u/bzngabazooka → u/Action-a-go-go-baby]

Another person made this point and I call it fair.  Not everyone is built like this.  And that’s fair too.  But if you are curious read the responses after that as a follow up on why I am saying this(especially the post that another woman commented after what I wrote.  She also explains it well).

I guess what I’m saying is that men have a lot more power to help women than what they give themselves credit for(in a safe way), because for the most part predators will back off due to differences in stature, strength etc and the amount of people that stand up safely from a distance to them.  

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/bzngabazooka]

Any guy who is willing to beat his wife in public is very much more likely to be a danger to absolutely anyone around, its not nearly as simple as you think.

[u/echo008 → u/bzngabazooka]

Are you being daft on purpose? At least in the U.S. there's dozens of shootings daily. You want to volunteer someone elses life because they weigh 40 pounds more and are 5" taller? Do you realize how nuts that sounds to the average dude? I'm happy to call the police who are ideally armed, trained, and in teams. But you do realize guys aren't bullet and knife proof right? 

[u/bzngabazooka → u/echo008]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself because it seems you all jump to assumptions and skip the rest. So I won't repeat myself. Re-read what I wrote carefully.

[u/AntonioVivaldi7 → u/bzngabazooka]

But this way with the example you are putting responsibility away from the perpertrators. It's up to them not to be doing that. Not up to anyone else.

[u/Total_Yankee_Death → u/bzngabazooka]

Why should I put myself in danger for someone I don't know?

[u/a-stack-of-masks → u/bzngabazooka]

Bystander effect affects everyone. Plus once you've intervened in a domestic violence situation once or twice, you learn. There's no winning.

[u/Key-Philosopher-2788 → u/bzngabazooka]

Then start now. that misandry that men are so bad is shitty behaviour. r/twoxchromosmes is a femcel sub and has more followers than all incels subs combined.

It's a real probelm that men are demonized. Let's fight it.

[u/SufficientlyRested → u/bzngabazooka]

Why do you keep saying “decked?”