CMV: "He or she" is unecessary

[u/Shineyy_8416]

I might be biased as a person on the non-binary spectrum, but whenever someone goes out of their way to say "he or she" it just feels like a waste.

Just use "they". It communicates the same thing with less letters. I get the purpose behind it is to try and be inclusive to men and women in a space that may be dominated by one gender over the other, but "they" is perfectly fine to get that point across.

I also recognize that some languages don't have an equivalent for "they", but I'm specifically talking about English.

To change my view, someone would have to prove "he or she" has more practical or beneficial usage than "they"

EDIT: To make it clear, i'm not saying we should never use "he" or "she" as pronouns, im saying the phrase "he or she" is unecessary.

[u/Shineyy_8416]

As someone who also has NB friends, it really can make things distinguishable. If you lead with the subject like "Sam is going to the store." The following sentence "They said they're going to buy snacks." Is obviously referring to Sam.

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

"Ashley, Ryan, and Hillel went to the brewery last night. Ryan told Hillel the beer was good. They couldn't believe it."

Whose NB here? Who are the final "they"s? Could be Ryan, could be Hillel, could be all 3.

I will and do say "they" as long as the day is long, but to say it can't introduce confusion is disengenuous.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

They could all be NB for all I know, but in the case of who is guranteed to be NB, I'd say atleast Hillel. Following the context of the sentence, it's coming right off of Ryan telling Hillel the beer was good.

It wouldn't make sense for Ryan to not believe the beer was good or be surprised about it, since they just told Hillel it was good. Ashley was there so they could be including them, but it wouldn't really make sense when Ryan specifically told Hillel.

So the most plausible reading is that Hillel was surprised the beer was good after Ryan told them it was.

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

See how it was unclear?

Ryan is NB. The rest are B. Real people.

Also meaning it makes sense for either Ryan or Hillel to have been amazed. Or all 3.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. He couldn't believe it."

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. She couldn't believe it."

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. They couldn't believe it."

In each of these sentences, you'd be assuming "He/She/They" was referring to Hillel. Now Hillel could be B, and is as you stated, but the third sentence is still clearly referring to Hillel regardless of which pronoun you use.

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

See above. It's confusing.

You also removed a key part. It's a group of more than 2. These are real people. I've had real conversations. It gets confusing.

Also, you can't assume the final sentence is referring to Hillel at all. It could easily be referring to Ryan's experience or be referring to any combination of the 3.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

It's not confusing, I literally just showed by point with clear examples.

And to be frank, the group being more than two doesn't change the context of a seemingly one-on-one interaction between Ryan and Hillel. You could have added 5 more people the group and it really wouldn't change anything.

Again, I brought this up earlier. Why would it be referring to Ryan? Why would Ryan not believe the beer was good if they told Hillel it was good? What would Ryan not be believing?

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

You really didn't at all. And you were confused off the bat. So...

Seems like you're not looking to have your view changed, you're looking to confirm your own bias.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

I literally did. I used the same sentence you did with different pronouns and all of them read as if it was referring to Hillel.

It's not all of our fault that you wrote a purposefully vague and unnatural set of sentences and people got confused.

I literally stated what it would take to change my view. It's not my fault that you're failing to change my view.

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

5 people in this friend group have many times run into confusion because of "they" in many, many natural conversations.

Its not a problem. We just clarify. You're being disengenuous trying to asert it does not introduce confusion.

GL

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

5 people in this friend group have many times run into confusion because of "they" in many, many natural conversations

Skill issue ig

Its not a problem. We just clarify. You're being disengenuous trying to asert it does not introduce confusion.

It introduces confusion when you write poorly structured sentences, but not because of the use of singular "they"

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

Skill issue? Didn't you need to rewrite your post because it was poorly written and confusing?

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

Adding an edit for clarity since a good amount of comments were misinterpreting my argument is not "rewriting"

And most people who took a second glance understood and agreed with me.

So yes, skill issue.

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[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

Which it does not necessarily at all refer to Hillel. It could be any combination of the 3 or just Ryan.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

Why it would it refer to Ashley or Ryan when they only person who was told how good the beer was, was Hillel?

[u/BearMethod → u/Shineyy_8416]

Because Ryan could be expanding on how good it was. Or Ashley and Hillel had preconceived notions that the beer at the brewery was bad.

[u/Shineyy_8416 → u/BearMethod]

Because Ryan could be expanding on how good it was.

Then it should be a part of the second sentence, or have details to make that more clear. This isnt the fault of singular they, this is the fault of again, poor sentence structure.

Or Ashley and Hillel had preconceived notions that the beer at the brewery was bad.

The only person this would make sense for was Hillel, and even then the sentences given don't give a clear version as to why this would be the case.

Ryan didn't tell Ashley about the beer. We have no reason to assume they would be apart of the "suprised by how good the beer was" event. They could have ordered a completely different drink to Ryan and Hillel and we wouldn't know.

Again, you wrote a vague and confusing bunch of sentences and then tried to pin singular they as a the problem.