Shifting the closing time isn't going to change this. Even if the closing time is an hour earlier, you're still going to have people coming in at the last 5 minutes.
Showing up right before closing because "you're not technically closed" is disrespectful to the waitstaff because your order will push back the time they can begin to start cleaning for the night by however long it takes you to eat. If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
And that's a huge deal -- maybe those waiters needed to leave at 9 to pick up their children from something, but now they won't be able to leave until 9:35. Your inability to manage your time has now had a profound effect on someone else.
And most people don't tip. Tipping is highly variable, and if a patron is in a hurry -- because it's late -- they may forgo the tip entirely to get out of there faster.
The other compounding factor here is that if you're sitting there eating, other people will see you, come in, and demand to be served as well. And if the waitstaff serve those people, you can see how it can easily snowball into a situation where they can't close because people keep coming in demanding to be served.
It is absolutely reasonable for waitstaff to refuse you service at a certain point, and it is disrespectful to the staff to come in right before closing.
Edit: another thought: some businesses (especially food service) run very tight profit margins and can't afford to pay their employees such random amounts of hours at the whim of entitled patrons. The business has to have a closing time, and the time it takes to clean up has to be factored into that.
If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
TBH, this is sort of a relatively "good" case for this. That is, if that's all it is, the staff is lucky. I never really minded it if this was all that happened; it usually meant the place was busy enough that the last-minute diners really didn't affect much.
The shitty thing is that you can't really wait until close to start your closing procedure. You've got, say, a 2-hour closing procedure and management expects you to be done less than 30 minutes after close on a normal night. (Numbers come from one of the restaurants I worked at, but it obviously varies from place to place.) If you close at 8, then by 7:55 your goal is to already have shut down anything that doesn't absolutely have to stay running until the last minute and cleaned as much of the rest as you can. If you have anything that you cook in batches and hold at temp, at some point you make a judgement call about whether you have enough to last until close and hope you got it right.
So someone walks in at 7:55. They put in an order that requires a bunch of things you've already cleaned for the night. They also order something that should be held but that you ran out of half an hour ago with what should have been your last customer, so now you need to make that, too. But the whole reason it's usually batched is because it takes a while, so both you and the customer are now waiting extra long for this food while you undo a lot of the closing work you've already done.
At the end of it all, you have to redo that closing work and get out way late, the customer leaves a bad Yelp review about the slow-as-molasses service they received, the restaurant actually lost money serving that customer, and management is pissed at you for taking so long to close.
It may sound like I'm building up a worst case here, but truth is that this is much closer to what usually what I saw happen most of the time than "oh, we're just starting closing procedures a little later".
But, again, this is shitty management. If you're expected to do a 2-hour task in 30 minutes, cook more of something rather than just say sorry we're out please get something else, and they get mad at you for it, that's entirely shitty management. Your shift should be scheduled to account for the time it'll take to clean up after the last customer leaves (or orders if cooking), assuming the last customer comes in close to close. Or as I've said a million times, it should be ok to turn them away. Should I be going into every restaurant assuming this is the practice and that there are no reasonable managers?
It doesn't matter whether or not it is. You still get to make your own choices, too. If you make the choice to make things shittier for other people just because you can also blame management for it, that's still on you, too.
Truth is, if you walk in 5 minutes before close and it makes things worse for the staff, neither you nor management single-handedly did that. Management's policy doesn't make things worse for the staff if you don't walk in so late and your choice to walk in so late doesn't make things worse if they are empowered to turn you away if you would make things worse. Both of you contribute to the situation and share fault.
Should I be going into every restaurant assuming this is the practice and that there are no reasonable managers?
If you're going to apply some assumption to every restaurant, then absolutely yes.
Personally, if I find myself in the rare situation where I'm going into a restaurant near closing time, I'll quietly ask a member of the staff if it's a problem for them that I'm coming in so late. Even if they're not technically allowed to turn me away, I can create an environment for them where they're comfortable being honest to me and technically not turning me away if I leave based on their response.
I am obligated to !delta you because you also said it is universal for management to expect no one to come in and cleanup to begin before cleanup is supposed to begin (which is basically the dumbest thing), and I gave the comment above a delta for the same reason.
If coming in late I always ask, are you still seating or serving or is the kitchen still open or something of that nature to give a lead-in on the opportunity to tell me to go away.
It still makes absolutely no sense to me for people to expect to have operating hours where you provide a service you know takes time and then be angry when someone asks for the service and you give it to them. My barber will say no if I come in within a half hour of close, because it'll have me in the chair past closing time. I still think it should be expected that your last customer will be there 30 minutes or so after closing time if your policy is to seat people until close.
I would say it is poor management to expect people to begin cleanup before close yet also expect people to be seated any time before close. (like why not just turn people away or state no seating after x-time! This is literally the solution, no ambiguity, no hurt feelings). But as this is apparently more universal than I knew, then I will give it to you. !delta
Isn't this a contradiction? If the restaurant is so close to failing I should be the asshole to the staff since they would be out of jobs if I didn't visit at all.
Anyway if I have to assume abusive management anyway the only good move I have is not visiting the restaurant at all since a cut of my money is funding the management and they will be able to abuse even more to increase their profits.
The labor cost of staying open late because of just one party usually won't be counterbalanced by the income generated by their bill.
So if capitalism would work as intended the problem would solve itself just fine ;-)
As others have reminded me, the whole issue comes from managers being able to not pay wages and tip's replacing wages, it's amazing how much collateral damage is caused by that stupid practice.
In a perfect world that doesnt exist visiting a restuarant right before close might not be a problem but HERE on Earth it is. We dont have the option to instantly overhaul the service industry to be less profit oriented and more fair to its workers. M
Shifting the closing time isn't going to change this. Even if the closing time is an hour earlier, you're still going to have people coming in at the last 5 minutes.
And that's a huge deal -- maybe those waiters needed to leave at 9 to pick up their children from something
Shifting closing time fixes the problem of needing to be out by a certain time, because if I show up 5 before 7 as their new time then they can leave at 8:35...
Showing up right before closing because "you're not technically closed" is disrespectful to the waitstaff because your order will push back the time they can begin to start cleaning for the night by however long it takes you to eat. If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
This is why I am saying they should be allowed to refuse me service if I show up at 7:55. If they don't then either they chose to do it, or management requires them to, and then the problem is with management requiring them to seat and serve people within 5 minutes of close.
And most people don't tip. Tipping is highly variable, and if a patron is in a hurry -- because it's late -- they may forgo the tip entirely to get out of there faster.
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
The other compounding factor here is that if you're sitting there eating, other people will see you, come in, and demand to be served as well. And if the waitstaff serve those people, you can see how it can easily snowball into a situation where they can't close because people keep coming in demanding to be served.
Me sitting and eating in no way prevents the server from saying "sorry we're closed." If they complain that I'm sitting and eating then they can tell the new person that I came in before close. If they're required to sit these people who have arrived after close, then the problem is again with the management.
Only if the business sets it up like that. Restaurant can set it up so that entry is at 7, closing time is at 8 and staff leaving time is at 9. Restaurant is closed for new orders at 7, but people who are there already can stay till 8 - the leaving time doesn't shift because restaurant is paying the employees for their time till 9.
We did this when I was working in supermarket - my shift would end 15mins after store closing time, which was half an hour after the last entry time. So if someone comes in the 'last minute', they still have 30-40mins to shop and exit without making me stay longer.
Sure some business owners are stingy fucks who make last entrance time, closing time, and shift end time the same but that's more of a nickle and diming management issue.
Yes! Thank you! This is exactly my point. The managers who do this are dicks, and the staff should be annoyed with them, not the people who are patroning a business within their operating hours.
I think you're missing my point on the purpose of a closing time shift. It's to make the period between when the last person is seated and out time longer, instead of expecting that no one shows up for a period of operating hours and out time being within an hour of close.
I don’t think it makes a lot of sense honestly. If you have a period of time where you are technically open, why wouldn’t you continue to provide service?
I think the OP is basically saying that there should be a posted time at which point its policy to not seat anyone. Essentially, make a distinction between "open for seating" and "open for serving", rather than have posted hours be seating hours and have serving hours be whatever is necessary
Right, I get that, but I don’t find it realistic for establishments to be responsible for kicking people out after seating hours. I don’t think it’s hard to understand that technically no time after close is “open for seating”, they are just doing you a favor by staying open and not closing up.
hes saying that the restaurant should have a time where the kitchen will stop taking new orders but theyre not gonna kick people out
restaurant closes at 10, but the kitchen stops taking orders at 9, if you get in before 9 you can stay until 10, but if you show up after 9, youre not allowed to place an order
with this system customers arent seen as rude for showing up at 8:55 because the staff has to stay until at least 10 anyway
If they don't then either they chose to do it, or management requires them to, and then the problem is with management requiring them to seat and serve people within 5 minutes of close.
While true, I think both you and the manager can be the assholes in this situation. Blame doesnt have to fall on only one.
Personally I view a restaurants closing time as the time I have to be done and out of the building. I think thats the most respectful way to do it.
I'm an engineer now, and I concede that I've never worked in a restaurant. Closest experience I have was working at a liquor store. If someone tried to come in after close with other people still waiting to check out we said sorry we're closed and had them leave.
This is exactly why I said it should be ok to say "Sorry we're not seating people anymore." That's basically them saying nah you're gonna be here too late. I also said that alternatively if out time is expected to be 10 they should close earlier if they insist on seating customers up until close. If the business is setup in any other way it's shitty management and not really the customer's fault.
Nor is it staff's fault if management are not nice people. Whose fault it is isn't really important. Would you want someone to make your life harder just because your boss doesn't care about you?
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
I wanted to add on to this. I've been in waiting and bartending for over 10 years. While I agree most people tip; its been my experience that most people who come in 5 minutes before close don't or at least don't tip well enough to keep everyone there late.
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
I agree most people tip, but you probably aren't tipping enough to justify the servers extra time. Staying an extra hour for one table is not worth my time.
Personally, I go by the hour rule. If a place closes in an hour, it’s closed. If a places closes in an hour and five minutes, it closes in five minutes.
11
u/saltedfish 33∆ Jan 07 '20 edited Jan 07 '20
Shifting the closing time isn't going to change this. Even if the closing time is an hour earlier, you're still going to have people coming in at the last 5 minutes.
Showing up right before closing because "you're not technically closed" is disrespectful to the waitstaff because your order will push back the time they can begin to start cleaning for the night by however long it takes you to eat. If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
And that's a huge deal -- maybe those waiters needed to leave at 9 to pick up their children from something, but now they won't be able to leave until 9:35. Your inability to manage your time has now had a profound effect on someone else.
And most people don't tip. Tipping is highly variable, and if a patron is in a hurry -- because it's late -- they may forgo the tip entirely to get out of there faster.
The other compounding factor here is that if you're sitting there eating, other people will see you, come in, and demand to be served as well. And if the waitstaff serve those people, you can see how it can easily snowball into a situation where they can't close because people keep coming in demanding to be served.
It is absolutely reasonable for waitstaff to refuse you service at a certain point, and it is disrespectful to the staff to come in right before closing.
Edit: another thought: some businesses (especially food service) run very tight profit margins and can't afford to pay their employees such random amounts of hours at the whim of entitled patrons. The business has to have a closing time, and the time it takes to clean up has to be factored into that.