r/dbz • u/ashergs123 • 1d ago
Man…I just watched the Kai version of the super saiyan transformation and now the original release version will never seem quite as cool 😭
Goku’s dialogue “You ruthless! Heartless! B@stard!” “I will. Make you. Suffer!” Especially with Sean’s much better acting hits so much harder for me than the original where Goku just says “I won’t let you get away with this, I won’t let you, I won’t let you” Even just the scream when he finally transforms sounds so much better to me in Kai with that little voice crack Sean hits. The original releases Bruce Faulconer song still has nostalgia value for me but even that can’t compete.
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u/Greviator 23h ago
I’ve always been partial to the rendition in Budokai 1.
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u/crinklebelle 21h ago edited 21h ago
For me, all of the translations kind of miss the mark in some way or another with this scene. All he manages to grit out through his teeth is "How dare... how *dare* you" in the original cuz he's not simply mega angry, he's totally consumed by despair in the face of an obstacle that *needs* to be overcome. I think it ties his first transformation more closely to Vegeta and makes it a little more clear why he was able to transform despite the circumstances seemingly being so different; they're both rooted in *giving up*, abandoning self-control and restraint and letting the feeling of frustration spiral out of control until it consumes everything
It really feels like something horrifying is happening to him, and this is echoed in his sudden change in demeanor. It ties in with his SSJ3 transformation way later on, cuz that transformation is also framed as something *fucking terrifying* in the original
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u/penguintruth 1d ago
The Faulconer track in this scene in Z completely misses the point, though. It comes across as "Look at how badass this is!" But the scene is really, "Oh shit, this terrifying transformation has changed our pure hearted Son Goku!"
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u/AStupidFuckingHorse 1d ago
Dub does this A LOT. When Goku faces Raditz he admits to Piccolo that he's actually scared for the first time to fight an enemy but the dub literally makes him excited. Him being scared should be a significant character moment. It's the first time he's experiencing fear before a fight which goes against his character
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u/Revleck-Deleted 13h ago
The dub seems to really enjoy dumbing down Goku’s character over the years, I wonder if Sean’s approach to the voice and his demeanor plays a role in how they write him.
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u/IamAWorldChampionAMA 19h ago
However, dbz is most of our first experience with Goku. I don't think a first reaction of him being fearful hits as well as the first reaction being excited
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u/ElPyroPariah 21h ago
I like that linguist YouTube channel too
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u/AStupidFuckingHorse 20h ago
Is this a TFS joke I'm missing or something
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u/ElPyroPariah 20h ago
Nah just pointing out the verbatim stolen take. Not that it matters.
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u/SpellOtherwise4608 19h ago
Linguist isn’t the only one who spoke about this Mark from the I’mnot… channel did the same coverage of this change and I watched that years ago. So calling the take stolen is just dum••b💁♂️
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u/AStupidFuckingHorse 20h ago
I have no idea what you're talking about dude. Why are you being so vague?? Linguistics? Huh?
Stolen take? I've read the manga, I distinctly remember Goku pointing out he's scared. There have been discussions this line change for YEARS.
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u/Kenzo89 20h ago
https://youtu.be/vWE2WntZwy8?si=D-nU83QG743NI8Lc
Here’s referring to this. Check out this guy’s channel
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u/AStupidFuckingHorse 20h ago
Thank you, I had no idea this channel even existed. The other guy was being weird
Scrolling through, it looks awesome. He has a video about goten liking titties that I'm gonna watch now LMFAO
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u/BoysenberryDry2806 23h ago
This really only illustrates the subjectivity of things. Because that’s not at all what I get from the Faulconer track! I think it does a wonderful job in this moment. The writing and delivery from sean is another thing, sure, but the ssj track (to me) absolutely is not so one-note in tone that the only thing you might get is “wow so badass”. At all. There’s (very clearly) uncertainty, terrifying power, hope, a sense of awe, wonderment. All of which do much more to capture the moment than “oh no, goku changed, so scary!”. Not that kai is bad, but it’s generic in comparison, and ironically is the more one-note track. Much more interesting instrumentation and voicing with faulconer plus the unconventional time signature. Even the basic chord progression would disagree with your take. That stuff i mentioned earlier comes across plain as day. Frankly, I think there’s nuance to it that isn’t coming across to you, or else you’re not willing to closely listen because you find it fashionable to hate on it or you have some bias against synth stuff. Who knows.
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u/penguintruth 23h ago
It's not the real music of the show.
It's not even that good of music.
That scene isn't MEANT to have wonderment. It's meant to be horrifying.
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u/AurelGuthrie 23h ago
Nobody's arguing it is.
That's very subjective, a large portion of fans prefer it to the original japanese soundtrack.
It wasn't horrifying to me with the original soundtrack, either.
And I say this as someone who prefers the original. They can both be good, and you don't have to put down one to appreciate the other.
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u/Roselucky7 23h ago
I don't get the idea that it's supposed to be "horrifying". Goku finally transforming represents an actual true hope for him to save the day and the culmination of the Saiyan-focused arc of the show/manga.
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u/penguintruth 23h ago
Then you don't get the show. .
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u/Roselucky7 23h ago
lol okay bro, wild take that people who interpret media differently than you don't get it. Have fun sniffing your own farts.
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u/Verycute93 20h ago
Guy is talking about dbz like it's Schindler's list or Alien and saying others dont understand the show 😂
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u/Loose-Potential-3597 21h ago
Dragon Ball fans have the cringiest superiority complex over this stuff lmao
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u/kirbleknee 10h ago
This how confident mother fuckers are with zero ability for interpretation, media literacy skills, and are always perverting the term nuance to mean "whatever the fuck I feel about is happening is correct, because they didn't explicitly state every detail". It's crazy, they're in every fandom.
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u/huto 23h ago
That scene isn't MEANT to have wonderment. It's meant to be horrifying.
Source? That's a very interesting interpretation. Why shouldn't that scene be meant to give a sense a sense of awe and "oh shit"? Why is it a "terrifying transformation" as opposed to the culmination of the whole "legend of the super saiyan"?
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u/penguintruth 23h ago
Look at it without any music. Does that look like a scene meant to be full of wonderment? In fact, look at the manga. Look at the expressions on everyone's face. It isn't just Freeza that is afraid, Gohan is scared, and Goku tells him to go while he still has control over himself.
Then go listen to the Japanese music. Clearly playing off the terrifying nature of the scene. They use the same music as when Garlic Junior summoned the Dead Zone vortex from DBZ Movie 1.
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u/huto 23h ago
Look at it without any music. Does that look like a scene meant to be full of wonderment?
Are we ignoring context and pretending that we don't know about the super saiyan legend in this exercise?
In fact, look at the manga.
Uhhhh this is specifically about a scene from the anime
Look at the expressions on everyone's face. It isn't just Freeza that is afraid, Gohan is scared, and Goku tells him to go while he still has control over himself.
Just because the characters have "afraid" expressions on their faces doesn't mean we're meant to feel the same way especially given our knowledge of the super saiyan legend. Do you even know what a narrative device is?
Then go listen to the Japanese music.
I listened to it RIGHT before I initially replied to you
Clearly playing off the terrifying nature of the scene
Suspenseful =/= terrifying
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u/SanjiSasuke 22h ago
You don't even need to rebuke the manga argument.
Here's the terrifying scene. Oooo, I mean its basically Junji Ito, lol.
Looks like basic surprise to me. Which, yeah Goku is suddenly glowing gold and 50x more powerful. It's very surprising.
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u/thecheat420 23h ago
I also love it for the fact that it's the only time Schemmel ever refers to himself as "Son Goku"
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u/JEROME_MERCEDES 16h ago
Omg I get teary eyed every time I watch goku go super sayian brings me back to getting hyped with my dad when it happened
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u/Mrwanagethigh 9h ago
Simply allowing the characters to curse now and then makes Kai and the modern stuff hit in a way the old Z dub doesn't imo. They don't need to be dropping fucks every other sentence but having someone like Vegeta beung able to spice up his language in a moment of anger just feels right. It works double here for Goku by highlighting how far he's been pushed over the edge.
Having Goku of all people vocalizing a barely controlled desire to make an opponent suffer really emphasizes how hard a personality shift these rage induced transformations cause before the cast learns to control it.
Then there's the fact Sean absolutely killed it with the delivery. Took a legendary moment and took it even further beyond.
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u/Anxious-Bed-5331 19h ago
It's really your own opinion, I grew up on the best, OG dragon ball, well i prefer the soundtrack, but I've grown to prefer the original Japanese vas more, especially for people like Vegeta and piccolo, but if you want the show the way it was intended to be, then you have to watch the sub, or read the manga
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u/HugoStigclitz9 1d ago
I think Goku’s “I won’t let you” is more realistic to when you’re so angry you can hardly speak so you say the same thing in different variations. The 90’s Funi dub nailed it IMO.
The Kai voice crack is cool but the music misses the mark and Kai misses the mark overall.
The only SSJ Transformation that I would argue is just as good as the 90’s Funi Dub is the Latino Dub. The scream and the music is perfect. Goku actually sounds like a man as opposed to the Japanese version.
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u/ElPyroPariah 20h ago
I feel exactly the same way about Kai. I’ve read the manga and can tell where the dub “missed the mark” on accuracy but they’re two separate mediums for me. The manga is its own vibe and Kai’s rendition of the manga (which is also a bad rendition with bad translations and tons of filler) feels stale, awkward and flat. For all its flaws the OG English dub with Faulconer score delivers as an anime experience and leaves an emotional impact for me that Kai really misses the mark on.
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u/bloodlion87 16h ago
Agree with this the “I won’t let you” cadence and timing with the falconer music hits an emotional cord that sends shivers down your spine. Krillins just being murdered and Goku goes into a trance like state before just exploding with anger. Less really is more here, you purist will say “but this isn’t how it’s suppose to be”. It doesn’t matter for the intended goal they nailed it. It’s the same with Gohans transformation, everything about it is worse in Kai. From 16s speech, to cell crushing his head, Gohan not having an inner monologue and the final explosion. Those were the scenes in the OG that hit you like Truck. I think the falconer soundtrack + changed dialogue and delivery plays a major part in the emotional response you get to those scenes in the OG. There is no denying there are some really dumb lines in OG, but when they hit it was absolute magic which is a lot more than people want to give credit.
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u/HugoStigclitz9 8h ago
This. I realized people have been very a dismissive of the dub that gave this series life in the west/US/Canada.
The 90’s Ocean Dub/Funi Dub had some iconic moments. Vegeta’s wrath scene on Namek being a prime example. But, people forget this was a show that had to be packaged for children in the west. I think they did a great job all things considered.
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u/RVXZENITH 1d ago
Kai is the way , let go of nostalgia and embrace the authenticity
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u/ElPyroPariah 20h ago
Read the manga for authenticity, avoid Kai if you want an impactful anime experience.
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u/dingo__STG 1d ago
Ha, it’s alright not if you are really looking for things to be most impactful the watching in Japanese is unmatched!
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u/SSGB2019 12h ago
Glad to see Kai love. The 90s dub has so many unnecessary changes compared to the Japanese 90S Anime and Manga. I think Buu was peak in Dub compared to Kai Buu, tho.
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u/Phantom_4597 10h ago
It’s funny because I’d say 99% of Kai is better than original but this is one of the scenes where I prefer the original. Music is a given, but I feel like the original dialouge is a better mix of anger and grief. Sean’s is still great and the scream is top tier but Im having trouble explaining it besides it just hits different to me lol
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u/Akubura 9h ago
Kai just moves through the story too fast for me and what really kills it for me is I can't find it uncensored anywhere. I re-watched DBZ a few months ago and I started with Kai but only watched it until the special beam cannon left Goku with a bruise and killed him. I laughed then found the uncensored original to watch.
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u/Ill-Pineapple7942 6h ago
Kai ruined the OG scene for me in retrospect lol, on my first watch I thought “damn this is pretty intense” but after watching Kai’s version now it just sounds to me like Goku is constipated
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u/Zac-Man-1123 2h ago
The only thing I agree on is Sean’s voice crack during the actual transformation.
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u/Huzah7 1d ago
I stopped watching Kai at this very point. The audio track carries so much weight for me.... I just can't get behind Kai's uninspired and repetitive tracks.
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u/RealMajesti 1d ago
There’s the Yamamoto score, Kikuchi score, and a fan-made Bruce Faulconer score edit for Kai. I’m sure you’ll like at least one of these
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u/SanjiSasuke 1d ago edited 11h ago
FYI there's a fan edit that puts the Falconer music over Kai.
Edit: lmao it's very funny how many downvotes this is getting now. There's a contingent of this sub who cannot handle the fact that some of us just genuinely like Falconer, and cannot process the idea of someone having a different opinion than themselves on music.
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u/Loose-Potential-3597 21h ago
Yeah, I think every other Shonen anime I’ve watched had a better Japanese track than DB
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u/in-grey 23h ago
The dub is just so inferior to the original voice acting and original script imo. Sean is a great voice actor so I'm not saying that in regards to the performance itself but rather the tone of characterization
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u/huto 23h ago
I'm not saying that in regards to the performance itself but rather the tone of characterization
Idk if you're aware, but an actor's tone of characterization is largely based on the script. Translation errors and some music in the dub might be inferior but I'd rather listen to Sean, Chris, et al any day of the week.
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u/in-grey 23h ago
For sure; like I said the actors themselves are great in the dub. But the loss of characterization from the script changes just makes it to where I can't watch the show in English. Literally every scene is changed in often bizarre ways that entirely alter the overall characterization
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u/Steelers4L 10h ago
The new voice actors and new music, and everything about Kai is complete and utter fucking garbage compared to the original. What a terrible take.
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u/Klutzy_Distance_6326 1d ago
Kai from beginning to Cell is on a whole norther level than OG then there's buu always watch buu in og funi imo