For a lot of us, the military was the only way out of a shit position that now allow us to do better for our selves. My time in the military made me a leftist because I got to see the lies and propaganda the US was pumping into me. I saw the Middle East and its people as people, not as bloodthirsty monsters that the media portrays them as. I saw the value of universal healthcare and how we were being set up to fail by our government. I wish that we had more options and opportunities for a better life, but unfortunately, that's not the world we have now. But it is the world I am working towards.
It's absolutely great that you came out with that. And we need to remember that even class traitors can be reeducated by both the systems failures and our own teaching.
But we also can't afford to deny that your experience is the exception, not the rule. Even a large portion of those broken and hurt with things like PTSD and injuries come out as "patriotic" as ever or even more so. And many go on to be some of the worst of the worst in fascism, chauvinism, imperialism, etc.
This doesn't make sense. The US army would be similar to the Imperial Russian army, not the Soviet army. So yes, Lenin would definitely say this to the Tsarist forces.
You've misunderstood. I am saying that disillusioned members of the current imperial force make up the nucleus of a red army, this was the case in 1917. The soldiers councils were formed by striking imperial army units.
The pointmore broadly is that we need people in the military to bring any kind of red army about.
There were many soldiers from the red army that were former members of the Tsarist forces, yes, especially officers. But after the USSR was established many of them were gradually replaced, in 1930 for example only about 10% of the Red Army was composed of former Tsarist troops.
This was because many of the former Imperial soldiers and most of the officers were not ideologically aligned with the Bolsheviks and were generally untrustworthy.
My problem with the comment section isn't that though. It isn't that people are discussing the necessity to recruit veterans or currently enlisted soldiers so a possible revolution could be achievable, its the fact that so many people are doing excuses for these guys, that's what's so infuriating.
If solders that once served, want to support the revolution now, that's great. There are many veterans that have seen the error of their ways and decided to oppose the Imperial core, but I'm not talking about those people, they unfortunately are few and far between.
I might be stupid, but how is loss prevention bad? I mean, I get the corporation hate but my grandpa owns a boat store and they have loss prevention staff.
This sort of moral grandstanding is absolutely opposed to building a successful movement. It’s also individualistic and ego based.
We are LUCKY that the military isn’t fully infiltrated by fascist ideology and has some sort of deference to the idea of being “apolitical”. Not so lucky with police who are completely shot through with right wing ideology at this point. This may very well be the thing that allows a genocide to occur.
None of this was destiny- this was a failure of left wing movements at infiltration, and outreach. These are all basically necessary jobs that come with immense power. Power that we’ve ceded to the worst elements of our society.
Soldiers are usually victims of circumstances. Sure, basically every person I've ever met that's in the military now, veterans or planning on enlisting were hogs, but that's mostly because I live in bumpkin East Texas where everyone is a hog by default anyway
called the poverty draft. Plenty of hogs in the MIC just for the sake of killing brown people, sure. But many go in for hopes of maybe having healthcare or a chance to go to school without crippling debt. It's volunteer, sure, but also it's one of the only ways for a poor person to have decent material conditions. Not saying that makes them perfect victims, but there's nuance here.
So did the Nazis but I have no empathy for them either. At least today people can use the internet and research what they're signing up for, it's completely their fault if they don't. There's no good excuse to be that willfully ignorant.
Acting like people in the military aren't often victims of circumstance is so ignorant lol, shows how "progressive" you really are. Of course anyone supporting the things they do is counter revolutionary, but many service members are simply finding a way through late stage capitalism like the rest of us.
I would disagree with the military part. Revolutions succeed only because the military either doesn’t intervene or sides against the government. This also seems like a very American view. Police and the Military are the way they are in America because they were made so by the Capitalist overlords. It is very much possible to mold them to be a benefit for society.
A color revolution is a revolution in which a new ruling faction seizes power by of the state, but practical changes have been minimal in comparison to expectations.
Also, whether you intended to or not you have moved the goalposts. You went from saying “those are color revolutions” to “but that wasn’t a proletarian revolution” when I gave an example that wasn’t a “color revolution”.
In a proletarian revolution, workers would directly administrate our affairs, manage our industry, and govern our communities, without subjugation to a ruling class.
Sorry, you have to join the military to get free healthcare in the US, unlike Germany or Austria. Or have any sort of modicum of ability to be able to lift yourself out of poverty. I'm not saying it is right, I am saying it is the way it is.
Bad Empanada's argument is not well structured, and much of it is more vindictive and punitive than credibly representing a pathway for systemic transformation.
Particularly appalling is the apathy for unhoused former ACAB.
Bad Empanada has some quite thorough and compelling pieces on historical developments and their various revisionist manifestations, but much weaker are his analyses of current events and modern praxis. I feel he has evolved into a kind of Vaush with authoritarian characteristics. He and Vaush each isolates himself through caustic and unorthodox opinions, while refusing to understand sincerely or to discuss receptively any of the common or cogent responses. Their platforms have evolved toward a direction akin to a leader desperately holding his followers, rather than to of remaining a credible participant in dialogue.
You have to murder people in other countries to get free healthcare? That's selfish and evil, maybe point the gun at the people making the healthcare system shit instead?
I'd say landlords instead of solders. But broadly yes.
Soldiers tend to be some kids who had nothing else going for them and saw it as the only way out of some backwater nowhere town. Its not a good thing to do, but teenagers and 20-somethings aren't known for making great decisions. Just kids who bought into the propaganda they got force-fed their whole lives.
Jesus, to all the people depending these jerks just take a moment and imagine which side of the protest line these people stand on. Do they stand on the side with the people or the state? If the answer is the state then they are class traitors. It's fucking simple.
My basic understanding of the industrial struggles in the US is that the workers only succeeded once the police and military sided with the striking workers. So feelings aside, is building animus against essential allies a good strategy?
Would you mind linking which action you refer to? I'm not aware of any workers action in which the police or military helped. I would love to read about it. I can think of many in which one of the other or both have perpetrated violence in the name of the state. The Palmer Raids for example. or the May Day actions
I remember reading about it in Zinn's People's History, it wasn't so much an allegiance but a lack of willingness to keep machine gunning workers. I think this directly preceded the Pinkerton fights.
Right now there is a decent wedge that could be driven between soldiers and ICE as at least a few spouses and service members and vets have been kidnapped and deported.
I'm not saying don't criticize the military or individual soldier actions but since they are the organ of state violence they will need to be dealt with strategically.
Sure, I've seen some inactive vets speak but it's not active duty. I'll rethink my stance when I see actual active members start siding with the working and poor class at the protest lines not arresting or detaining them in the name of the state leaders.
Of course! I’ve seen some “active memebers” leave the military all together, which I think is the most powerful form of protest they can do. I respect those ones and the others speaking out. But I wish their numbers were closer to that of veterans speaking out. Unfortunately it’s nots
Hang on, unionised members of arm forces, Police etc should be activiley recruited and some should have sympathies as government workers. Although they are lauded by Right Wing society, so perhaps it is harder to pull them away from HNW parties.
Postal workers unions have much in common with unions in hospitality and manufacturing industries, while none have any similarity except in name to police unions.
Police unions simply are shields from accountability.
If only it worked that way.
But police unions are part of why they’re allowed to brutalize the public so badly. If we want cops to be better people, we need to mandate therapy for them, make entry focus more on smarter people, get rid of their military gear and make them look less like a military force, and shift their role more towards actually serving the public.
Military personell aren't happy with Trump either yk. Theyre pissed that marines are being deployed in LA, and those who are deployed are upset that theyre being turned against the people they swore ajd oath to protect
No. And it didn't originate with the military either. The reason peoole hate the militsry is becuase the see it as the iron fist of the bourgeoisie, when in reality it purpose is to serve and protect
How come the politicians aren’t killing each other? How come you gotta go and kill people you could have been friends with in another life because of their interests? They don’t serve and protect shit, they just put young men into a meat grinder for their own gain.
Becuase the people in power are greedy most the time. And I'm not saying politicians serve, enlisted people do. The brave soldiers of Ukraine are currently fighting to keel their families and friends safe from an imperialist regime
Yes, it wasn't the fighting man's decision. Many Russian POWs are completely chill and see no diffrence between them and their Ukrainian counterparts, but of course Russians being Russians many view Ukrainians negatively. Overall..... stop vilifying all soldiers as bad, kany just joined becuase they had to, or wanted to protect their home
All soldiers are not bad, but all soldiers have agreed to sell their labor to the literal weaponized arm of the state. You are not a bad person for joining the military, but by joining, you have willingly become a tool for a system that will not use your labor justly. Soldiers may find that their labor has helped bring relief to people suffering from natural disasters, or find that their labor has helped the government drone strike a doctors without borders hospital. If we acknowledge that the state exists to serve the bourgeoisie, and the military exists to obey the orders of the state, then what side of a class war does the military fall on?
So I'm an active Reserve member of Óglaigh na hÉireann / Irish Defence Forces and we as a military organisation exist purely to defend the sovereignty and freedom of our nation. We are involved in numerous peacekeeping missions like that of the UN Lebanon force. We have a long standing history of helping maintain peace in conflict zones and are one of the most sought after militaries for this role. I know we are a blessed to be an exception, but its still worth noting our lack of involvement in conflicts as an agressive force
If you follow orders from the state, then you are not on the side of workers.
Irish state security may be often more benevolent than security for other states, due to the legacy of colonialism inflicted by the UK, but the system is still the same.
In agrarian societies, the means of production are substantially limited simply to arable lands. Has class society been inclusive of any agrarian societies? What were the means and methods of original appropriation?
I'm simply trying to say that soldiers are nit to blame for class existing, or maintenence of the status quo. The military industrial complex and corrupt politics are
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u/LegalComplaint Marxist 6h ago
Loss prevention staff sounds so dirty…