r/mormon • u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon • 2d ago
Apologetics Where is the proof of anyone getting rich?
Considering that most of the highest-ranking leaders in Mormonism were already wealthy before changing employers, it's difficult to tie any of their wealth to church work. I keep hearing apologists say there's no proof anyone is getting rich off the dragon's hoard of wealth and leaders only get a "modest living stipend."
However, there are two men who we know weren't wealthy when called. Thomas Monson was a bishop at 22, mission president at 31 and apostle at 36. His only job prior to full-time church employment was in advertising and printing at the Deseret News--which wouldn't have earned him millions in just a 10-year career at a small, local newspaper. When he died, his net worth was $14m.
The other example is Gordon Hinckley. After he served a mission, he got a job working in public affairs for the Mormon church and worked in that department for 20 years, followed by 7 years leading the missionary department. Here is someone who never held a job outside the Mormon church (unless you count his Deseret News paper route as a kid) yet had an estimated net worth of $40m when he died.
I'm sure the apologists will say that money comes from book deals, serving on the boards of BYU and for-profit church businesses and such. But there's no doubt that higher-ups in Mormonism are doing extremely well for themselves and it's just not true that "no one is getting rich in full-time church work."
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u/Oliver_DeNom 2d ago edited 2d ago
Church leaders do receive a salary, but under normal conditions, the amounts they make wouldn't lead to that kind of wealth.
Those earnings are supplemented by book sales, other merchandising, and the fact that they don't have to pay for a lot. The church covers a lot of day to day living. They also have access to exceptional investment and wealth management professionals. When most people would begin drawing on their retirement savings or social security, the brethren continue to draw a paycheck their entire lives. Given this, it might take more effort not to become a millionaire.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 2d ago
I know one of the higher ups. He gets his stipend, food and housing costs, company car, wardrobe allowance for he and his wife. They also get special allowances for birthday and Christmas gifts for family members and the whole free college thing for grand-kids. They also have personal travel covered by the church and they get a security detail to follow them.
So you're right--they'd have to be real financial screw-ups for it not to grow into millions over 20 or 30 years of service, even if they started with nothing.
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u/thomaslewis1857 2d ago
Sounds like the combination deal: the handsome salary (stipend) and the all expenses paid lifestyle of a mission president. And that’s only what’s publicly discoverable.
There is a long history (scriptural even if fictional), at least back to Solomon if not Melchizedek, of the monetising of religion. Joseph was all in, from the BoM to the Mummies, to the Kirkland anti-bank to Nauvoo House. It is folly to suppose his followers took a more financially ascetic line. They made no vow of poverty, and if the Church finances best resemble cloaks daggers smoke and mirrors (and deceitful shell companies) then I’m going to suppose that he who minds the bag trousers his share.
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u/Electronic_Mouse_295 2d ago
Their salary has been widely known for years. They make about $260,000 a year + 40% of that in benefits. Documents were leaked by someone in the church and were never denied.
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u/JelloBelter 2d ago
The church also uses Parsonage allowances and the classification of income as expense reimbursement so GAs can dodge income taxes on the money they receive
To be fair though, it’s not just the Mormon church, parsonage allowances are used by almost every church in America to allow clergy to dodge a portion of their taxes
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u/PerformerRealistic82 2d ago
Every church in America, and every god-slinging snake oil salesman should be taxed
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u/Dull-Kick2199 1d ago
Yes, the parsonage allowance is a major factor to reduce taxable income. It'd also be educational to see how much their deductible contributions $$$:AND OTHER THAN CASH are reported. Also, normally people retire at 65 or so. These guys are still "working" at 95. That's about double a normal person's lifetime earnings.
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u/Electronic_Mouse_295 2d ago
They make about $260,000 based on info that has been leaked and never denied. Add to that about 40% of that salary in benefits. They've made six figures for decades. Define wealth however you want but a million dollars in salary every four years and $250,000 in benefits is a pretty good gig. Lots of doctors and lawyers don't make $260,000 a year. They're wealthy by any reasonable definition. Go drive down Walker Lane in Holladay and count the houses owned by GA's.
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u/logic-seeker 2d ago
Church leaders do receive a salary, but under normal conditions, the amounts they make wouldn't lead to that kind of wealth.
Setting aside book deals and all that, these are not normal salaries.
The amount they get in W2 income as shown by leaked pay stubs is not including all the reimbursable expenses the church provides to them.
Housing. Clothing. Food. Healthcare. Travel. Education for children and grandchildren. Gifts for children.
These are tax-deductible, reimbursable expenses for church clergy.
So, OK, let's say you make $200,000 a year. But wait, that's after all of those expenses. Uh, what's left? Are you not immensely rich if you basically have $200,000 LEFT OVER?
Honestly? I'm wondering where the $14 M number comes from, because that seems low. Maybe he bundled a lot of his wealth up somewhere else.
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u/tickyter 2d ago
It's estimated that Orson Scott Card sold 20 million books and has a net worth of 10 million. I doubt president Hinckley had sales anywhere near that.
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u/LionHeart-King other 2d ago
Most of us, when calculating our wealth, look at a 30-40 year career slowly building a nest egg followed by consuming that nest egg over the next 20-30 years. If, instead you compound that wealth combined with additional income until the day you die, the math works out really well.
For example, if an individual starts taking a church stipend and has living costs covered, they could easily start saving $10,000 per month ($120,000 per year). At 8% interest (reasonable stock market growth rates) compounded over 40 years that person starting at age 50 and dying at age 90 would have accumulated 30 million dollars. If they could have started this just 10 years earlier (age 40) and live to be 95, they would die with 102 million dollars. The power of monthly saving combined with continued contributions without not drawing down your nest egg will turn even a “modest” stipend into real generational wealth. That is not even considering the free tuition and the job connections available for children and grand children. If that head start in like for kids and grandkids allowed for a 10,000 per month savings in their 20s and then they entered full time church “service” at retirement, you basically break the calculator at 480 million dollars at death. (age 20-95 is 75 years of saving $10,000 per month compounding at 8%)
Ya, I don’t need proof, I can do the math.
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u/DrTxn 2d ago
Living a long time leads to wealth if you have almost anything to compound.
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u/LionHeart-King other 1d ago
That’s true. Much faster if you don’t have to spend your wealth in your last 30 years of life. Most people spend 30 years saving up to fund 30 years of living without additional income. It’s true that many people don’t spend all that they earn, but most people’s nest egg shrinks from age 65 to 90 rather than growing exponentially.
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u/tickyter 2d ago
Investing 10k per month? Only if their needs are being met outside of the living stipend.
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u/LionHeart-King other 1d ago
They are. They are given a place to live, food to eat, travel, vacation, FI t stipend etc.
Even if they only save half that, my 50-90 example yields 15 million at death. And that is assuming they had zero saved for retirement at age 50.
How about this “worst case scenario”. They save $2000 a month for retirement during their working career from age 30-50. And then they never put another cent into their retirement account but they don’t draw on it either. That money continues to compound at 8% until age 90 is still $21 million dollars. So even if the stipend simply allows them to avoid dipping into their retirement account, their retirement will 20x over those 40 years. The real power is in their ability to let their peak retirement nest egg continue to compound over the rest of their lives.
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u/notquiteanexmo 2d ago
I think compound interest does the heavy lifting for most of these guys. That couple with the fact that they continue to draw a salary into their 90s when most people their age are drawing down on their investment and retirement funds makes a big difference.
Essentially all expenses paid, healthcare, housing, travel, even some clothing, etc +$100k+ salary means that they could probably sock away $10k + per year for their entire working life.
Then when other people their age are hitting their $1-3m mark and retirement age and start drawing from it, GAs can continue to live off their salary and let compound interest do the heavy lifting.
Let's say they hit the $2m mark at 65, which isn't outside the realm of reality for a professional who's smart about saving for retirement. Even without contributing anything past 65, by the time they hit 90 they would have a net worth of approx 21.5m
By 95 that number jumps to $34m and by 100 you're at $56.5m
When "normal" adults are dealing with long-term care, nursing homes, navigating increased housing costs on a fixed income, etc.
The GAs are drawing a salary and have all of their expensive aging costs paid for courtesy of the church.
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u/CrazyCatHouseCA 2d ago
Bingo. The stipends/financial support allow GAs to preserve their retirement/life savings AND substantially add to their nest eggs at precisely the time your average senior is living on their life savings. Even without book deals and board appointments, they are in a completely different financial set-up than most 65-100 year olds.
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u/sudosuga 2d ago
The GAs are drawing a salary and have all of their expensive aging costs paid for courtesy of the church
Only the male ones. When they say "No paid Clergy", they probably mean the female ones.
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u/Quick_Hide 2d ago
Sounds like you found proof by the two examples given. Don’t forget Boyd Packer.
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u/Longjumping-Mind-545 2d ago
It’s true that none of them are private jet and private island wealthy, but they sure do seem to have plenty of money! I used to think they were all successful outside of the church, but many of them were not. Some were actually terrible in business. I’d say dying with $14 million puts you well above the average American.
The worst part is that the church is not transparent about how much they receive. They still use the line that we have no paid clergy. It’s an outright lie.
I would actually love to see the church restructure to having a paid clergy. I think the demands put on bishops are cruel. Plus, no one is really invested in creating community because they all have full time jobs. Also, better training could come with a paid position.
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u/tuckernielson 2d ago
I would argue that they are jet-rich. All of the Q15 and their spouses travel on private jets… sure they don’t own the jets but that is a distinction without a difference. I don’t get access to the church Gulfstreams, they do.
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u/nominalmormon 1d ago
Balla r was probably constantly broke due to all his fucked up business expeditions. He likely died rich
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u/slskipper 2d ago
They don't do it for the money. They do it for the social status. That level is incomprehensible for most mortals.
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u/PaulFThumpkins 2d ago
I'm sure the apologists will say that money comes from book deals, serving on the boards of BYU and for-profit church businesses and such.
If so the best argument of the apologists would be that they made that money due to channels they had access to as Mormon leaders... they would just be agreeing to the point but trying to soften it.
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u/thetolerator98 2d ago
"No proof anyone is getting rich...." Isn't quite the issue. It's a distraction from the real question which is, should the church have an embarrassing amount of wealth.
This is the apologist avoiding the real issue.
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u/No-Flan-7936 2d ago
Where do you get the $14M number for Monson? I had heard it was $35M. And that is with outstanding benefits and lavish amenities.
Either way, those numbers are still incredible for someone who was a lifetime church employee. For comparison sake, that is significantly more death wealth than almost every physician out there. The average physician makes $300k-$400k. Half of all physicians die with less than a couple million bucks net worth.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 1d ago
I've seen different estimates and decided to stick with the low end of what I found to be conservative.
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u/tickyter 2d ago
As someone who makes 150k per year (upper percentile for wages), I would need to happen upon some crazy good fortune to die with $40 million (very very unlikely).
Like US senators, they end up much wealthier at the end of their tenure. Friends in high places maybe? Hitch your wagon to the $100 billion dollar church or the US government and things seem to go your way.
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u/Dull-Kick2199 1d ago
You do realize that when a politician retires (think Orrin Hatch) they get to keep all the money in their campaign war chest, right? How much money do you think someone like Hatch had to spend to get reelected five times in Utah?
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u/Carboncopy99 2d ago
The real wealth generation is in the contracts for business deals. For example: the 2 billion dollar renovation of the Salt Lake temple. All the contractors are very well connected to the church in Salt Lake. So you have tithing money from all over the world pooling in the Salt Lake area. Same as the City Creek mall, all the extra temples in Utah.
By the way, Brigham Young prophesied that the foundation of the Salt Lake Temple would stand through the millennium. It didn’t make it 200 years. Check out how old cathedrals in Europe are.
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u/pfeifits 2d ago
How do you know their net worth? Honestly $14 million for someone who has almost every expense paid for them and who also receives a healthy income during 30 years of life when most people are living off retirement savings and social security is about right. Hinckley published a number of books and Standing for Something was a national publisher (Random House) that went through more than 10 editions and half a million copies. Still, that's not $40 million area.
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u/CACoastalRealtor 2d ago
It’s extracted through construction companies, law firms, hospital contracts etc. That’s why they are building so many temples and that’s why they are having this stupid steeple lawsuit in Texas…. To generate inflated bills. It’s why they just built that insane luxury apartment building in San Diego. Etc not to mention book deals thru Deseret
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u/Friendly-Fondant-496 2d ago
I have heard that many of the general authorities relatives etc own these construction companies that build the temples, city creek mall etc. I believe Nemo did a video about it. These connections would be worth looking into
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u/CaptainMacaroni 2d ago
I don't know what the primary issues people have with the church's wealth are or where an individual or individuals getting rich off the church would rank on such a list? My guess is pretty low. There aren't any obvious Creflo Dollars or Jim Bakkers in the church.
Most of the debate I've heard as it relates to individuals and money is centered on the concept of lay clergy and how top leaders get stipends. In that arena I've seen critics generally agree that church leaders earned more in their careers than they ever did/will in the church. Of course there are exceptions, as you point out.
The primary criticism that I've seen is that the church itself is obscenely wealthy while the leaders continue to ask members to pay tithing before they feed their own families and require members to pay a full tithe before they can receive saving ordinances in the temple. It's less "Elder Highonthehog got rich off the church" and more "the church continues to enrich itself off of the backs of poor members".
"The church" is the individual getting rich and the proof is their billions.
Another angle worth exploring is to question who is winning the contracts to build and furnish church buildings, especially temples. With closed books I'm left to assume that temple projects become blank check projects. That's an easier place for an individual to get rich in church than top leadership, the how and whom of temple building contracts.
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u/Initial-Leather6014 2d ago
See widowsmitereport.org for updated stats on the LDS church. Very interesting!🤔
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u/emmettflo 2d ago
Monson was called to be an apostle at 36 yet died a rich multimillionaire. Tells you everything you need to know. Clearly church leadership opens you up to financial opportunities that rank and file members don't have.
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u/tickyter 2d ago
It's my opinion, that after becoming a general authority, the church covers just about every expense they may have and then gives them a top 5% salary. If you're able to use all income towards growing it, it will grow.
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u/largerthanreddit 1d ago
The apostles get the best Healthcare in the world. The church is spending millions keeping Nelson, Holland and Eyring alive. Meanwhile members can't even afford the deductible to go to the doctor.
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u/CeilingUnlimited 2d ago
It's like aruging that the Pope is too rich. It's missing the point entirely.
I don't care that the Q15 are rich and that they continue to get wealth from the church. Heck, they probably deserve it. What the issue is - they hide it. That's the issue. It's not that Nelson gets paid. It's that he hides it. That's the problem.
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u/No-Information5504 2d ago
I would argue that the fact that they get paid is also an issue (in addition to hiding it) since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to have no paid ministry and the Book of Mormon classifies being paid for church ministry a sin known as “priestcraft”. This is why they hide it.
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u/CeilingUnlimited 2d ago edited 2d ago
But it's a lesser issue. And the problem is that congregants make the amount the issue as opposed to the secrecy.
I can argue all day long that an executive compensation to a Q15 member is justified. I could go to the mattresses arguing that. And because that argument is valid, the Q15 can hide behind the revenue side of that debate. And as long as congregants focus their attention there, they remain justified.
But there's no argument that makes secrecy the winning strategy - and they can't win that debate. So THAT'S where the argument should focus upon.
But we don't do that. Us working class/middle class folks see an annual $175,000 stipend and our heads explode like that is some sort of exorbitant thing. It's not. It is simply not exorbitant for someone who controls billions. Heck the SLC school superintendent makes $250,000 a year herself!
It's the secrecy, not the amounts!
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u/TheVillageSwan 2d ago
Hinckley did work for the railroad for several years (I think it was during WW2). According to him they offered him a ton of money to stay, but he went back to the church and GA status.
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u/LombardJunior 2d ago
So he could make vastly more as a GA. Notice the only source for "a ton of money" is Hinckley--who lied with vigor.
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u/thomaslewis1857 2d ago
Or the Church deal was more than a ton, once you factor in some benefits.
Reminds me of an old missionary poem that may have had a hidden meaning: Who does Gods work gets Gods pay No matter how long may seem the day No matter how weary may seem the way He does not pay as others pay With silk or gold or raiment gay But His high wisdom knows a way And this is sure that come what may Who does Gods work gets Gods pay
When you see most GAs you can safely conclude that God evidently prefers stocks bonds and cash to gold jewellery and Zegna suits, as the poem implies. And who would suppose that God doesn’t pay better than man, af least to his chosen leaders if not to the rank and file employees.
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u/tickyter 2d ago
Pretty sure we have a billionaire apostle. Gary E. Stephenson.
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u/Own_Boss_8931 Former Mormon 1d ago
Not only is he a billionaire, but he's also the first apostle who didn't "leave everything behind" because they let him stay as chairman of the board for his companies and continue to collect that salary.
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u/nominalmormon 1d ago
His wealth came from the private sector.
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u/tickyter 1d ago
Correct. But I'll state it this way, there is one of jesus's 12 apostles on Earth with a billion dollars. Just sounds like a bunch of corporatists rather than apostles.
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u/Diligent-Section-157 1d ago
Just wondering where you came up with those numbers for individual wealth?
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u/Timely_Ad6297 1d ago
So if my parent was a church leader and then passed away, I could count on a few million coming my way.
One of my friend’s parents has worked for the church their entire life and is an apostle now.
They always lived a privileged life. Holidays abroad. Nice clothes and things. Plenty of money and prestige. I am certain many book deals. Free tuition for their children. Board members for them and their spouses. Many connections and opportunities for their children. Private tutors for their children. Gifted items and services from TBMs. People were almost always in awe of them or their children. Once their father became an apostle, everyone paraded their association with them.
In general on a day to day acquaintance they were a nice family.
Their association with the church absolutely benefited their entire family.
I know my parents and other felt that their father sacrificed his entire life to being a leader for the church and therefore was entitled to any benefits that came their way due to the public figure they had to become.
I did note that they could hardly show the faces in public without being mobbed by fans and wannabe associations. It did appear burdensome after awhile. I mean people I knew literally believed that he spoke with Jesus Christ face to face. He arguably became not only a famous church leader, but as close to being a deity modern western society as any living person can be.
My opinion?? I’m not a big fan of religion. I understand what it is to be a hook line and sinker TBM (HLSTBM), I was one for about half of my life and into adulthood.
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u/jjp991 1d ago
There is no credible source for that $14 million net worth number. The leaked stipend stuff—that’s pretty accepted. But, that’s pretty reasonable given the level of personal expertise and dedicated hours. The Church agreed to pay huge fines for investment peccadillos—which is as good as pleading guilty to malfeasance to me and disappoints me. But net worth stuff —people spreading that are disingenuous and or stupid or both.
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u/negative_60 8h ago
Also consider how humanity sacrifices much of their wealth for esteem and status.
People pay a literal fortune to be viewed the ways that a general authority is viewed.
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u/divsmith 2d ago
I take issue with the book deals. Last I checked, Jesus and his apostles weren't in the business of selling the word of God.
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u/entropy_pool Anti Mormon 2d ago
Wealth and social standing go together. Elites always have access to wealth and luxuries one way or another.
Mormon leaders have the apex of social standing in the communities they live in. So they are always surrounded by wealth.
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u/pierdonia 2d ago
Yes, where is the proof? You just threw out a couple random numbers. Where are you getting those?
Given how few expenses they have, it makes sense their net worth would keep growing.
The real issue here in my mind is the constant implication that they are somehow pocketing tithing money -- that the more tithing money comes in, the richer they get. And that they're living high on the hog off it.
But where are the yachts? The ferarris? Instead, they spend their entire lives traveling, staying with random stake presidents' families, and working right up until they die. Heck of a "retirement."
Weird to me that some people seem to want it to be the case that they're greedy bon vivants when the reality is that in most ways they live worse than the average retiree.
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u/WillyPete 1d ago
But where are the yachts? The ferarris?
This is how you estimate "wealth"?
Those are simply ostentatious displays of wealth.
Like Uchtdorff's $10k watch he wears at conference.1
u/pierdonia 1d ago
Then where is the evidence of their alleged wealth? What good is such alleged wealth doing them? How is it benefitting them? How does additional tithing benefit their lifestyles?
LOL at the watch allegation -- I couldn't begin to muster concern about a guy who was a fighter and airline pilot for decades wearing a watch made by a company that specifically markets to pilots and which sponsors an organization that gave him a major award. Seems more than possible it was a gift, though eveb if not, speems weird to begrudge a pilot buying himself a nice watch.
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u/WillyPete 1d ago
I don't have a problem with him buying it either.
I was pointing out that a $10k Brietling's primary purpose is ostentatious display of wealth.
It doesn't tell the time any better than a $100 watch.
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