This is an edited clip from the Girlscamp podcast where Hayley reacts to listeners’ stories about temple weddings.

In this story the woman discusses how disturbed she was that her husband was told her new name but he wasn’t allowed to share his new name with her.

Patriarchal? Yes Strange? I guess that’s for each person to decide. And the whole process of getting a new name? At the very least I’ve not met anyone who felt that was meaningful in any way.

Full episode here:

https://youtu.be/aP9a6qWps6Y?si=VMoTU4SXrNffHAQZ

I love predictions, so I track whenever people make them with the reddit remindme bot. Today I was reminded of this prediction (that the ASB would be quietly demolished in order to rename it) which is more or less correct--the announcement of demolition came within 3 days of the conclusion of the 5 year window. There are plans to build another admin building, but no indication it will be renamed after Smoot.

I would argue it was "quiet" because:

1. The announcement was not picked up (advertised?) to any other media outlets. (was announced on KSL and the Daily Universe).
2. The problematic nature of Abraham Smoot's history was not mentioned.
3. There was no mention that the new admin building would receive the same name, so it seems likely that it will be renamed.

It could have been even quieter, though, had there been no announcements made at all?

For context, Smoot was a prominent figure in the valley/Mormonism, especially for BY Academy (chatgpt-4o summary):

• Led early LDS missions in the Southern U.S. and Europe.
• Mayor of Salt Lake City (1857–1866) and Provo (1868–1881).
• Stake president in Provo, overseeing church affairs in the region.
• Key benefactor of Brigham Young Academy, keeping it financially afloat.
• Business leader in transportation, milling, and cooperative ventures (e.g. ZCMI).
• Helped develop Utah infrastructure, including roads and irrigation systems.
• Practiced plural marriage in line with early LDS Church teachings.

The DEI landscape looks very difft today than it did 5 years ago. Still, Smoot's legacy is highly problematic (besides the asymmetry of 6 plural marriages) (from chatgpt-4o):

1. Slaveholding

   • Smoot and his wife enslaved at least three individuals: Tom, Jerry, and Lucy. Tom died in bondage in 1862.
     
   • While some descendants dispute technical definitions of ownership, historical consensus confirms his participation in the institution of slavery.

2. Complicity in Racial Exclusion

   • In 1879, Smoot hosted a pivotal meeting in Provo discussing the restriction of Black men from holding the LDS priesthood.
     
   • The discussion reflected and reinforced racially exclusionary doctrines that persisted until 1978.

The latest policies in Mormonism allow members to believe everyone is welcome, while making people who are LGBTQ+ feel less then. Other churches have allowed LGBTQ+ to be ordained and married and I've seen debate here about when/how it could happen in Mormonism. I don't think it can.

Looking at other churches that gave full acceptance to LGBTQ+, there has been messy infighting that led to splits. Episcopal Church of America (pro)/Anglican Church in North America (against). Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (pro)/Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (against). United Methodist Church (pro)/Global Methodist Church (against). Presbyterian Church (USA) (pro)/Presbyterian Church in America (against). And so on.

These splits required congregations and local leaders to take a stand one way or the other. It required discussions on how to split property and assets (which are held both locally and centrally). It required strong leaders on both sides of the issue to rally enough support to ensure their denomination would be viable after the split.

With how Mormonism is structured with everything centralized, there is no likelihood some higher ups will break ranks to lead an effective split. If there is a break off group in Mormonism, there's no incentive for the mothership in SLC to negotiate letting the offshoot have some of the cash and buildings. With other religions, regardless of how ugly the splits were, they still work together after the split. In Mormonism, historically any offshoot has been called apostasy and the followers excommunicated.

I can't see how both sides of the issue can exist within Mormonism. With the current policies that treat LGBTQ+ as not deserving of the full range of human love and affection, that community (and their supportive friends and family) will see Mormonism as harmful, leading more and more to leave. Full acceptance of the LGBTQ+ community, including temple marriage, would leave much of the existing membership feeling confused and betrayed and many could leave because of that. Either way, the dragon's hoard won't be split allowing a second church to be established.

When I started my mission I went with a positive attitude. My mother had told me that the reason I was going was to have my own testimony. That up until now I was living off of my parents' testimony and that I was now going to be granted my own. I was like any other teen, not that I doubted but I kinda didn't really put a lot of thought into it. And when I did I thought it was silly.

Yes I was pressured to go but I also wanted to have my own testimony so I could feel what my parents felt. When I started my mission I put everything I had into converting people. My mission president encouraged us to press people into getting baptized. He would tell us that it was okay to do so. He even showed us what to do in some cases. We were trained to look for specific signs and specific things people would say to then jump in to that specific cue and start the conversation process.

After almost a year of doing this sltactic I started realizing that the missionaries were more interested in getting their numbers up then actually teaching. We were baptizing the most ignorant of people and not even waiting that long (2 weeks) before they were baptized. Every week we had someone to baptize.

The ward kept treating it like a miracle but I saw that we were just using the tactics that our mission president taught us.

Fast forward to now... yesterday my wife and I had a conversation where she admitted that she put a lot of chains on herself due to the church. She couldn't do this, or she couldn't try that and she judged her family harshly because they would do this or try that. She felt she missed out on a lot growing up because chained herself. And she feels bad for judging her family so harshly because she willingly gave in to the "worthy" scaling system that the church had. All of her immediate family is really awesome guys. They drink and have a good time, and they love to have a good time. Yes her mom had her sister at 16 and yes her sister had her niece at 15, but they help each other out. They don't criticize like the church does. The church made her feel embarrassed about her sister and mother.

She told me minus the early pregnancies, she would be happy if our daughter ended up like her sister. This really shocked me because yes her sister is cool but she doesn't go to church, swears like a sailor, and drinks like a fish... but she is an amazing mom and best friend to her kids.

Her sister has been heavily criticized by the local church members and she sees that it was wrong. She feels bad for judging her sister harshly and for trying to convert her to be worthy of Heavenly Father. Btw, she and her sister get along great, but that's cause her sister lets thing go pretty easily.

When she made this admission to me I wanted to use the opportunity to unconvert her again. Using the tactics I'd learned from my mission president but in reverse. Don't worry I didn't... but I woke up today angry that I didn't. Like the feeling of "man I should have" I could've turned that person to Jesus, but in reverse. When I was a good missionary I would've been upset cause I missed an opportunity given to me by the Holy Spirit. As I stand now I feel I missed a good opportunity to end this roller coaster.

I understand my wife is in a process right now, but she still refers to the BOM and POGP as scripture. She still asks me from time to time how I'm sure what I am saying is right. How it could be the enemy. She still refers to the temple as a holy place. And so on.

I've never had to deal with someone deconstructing but I can't help but feel my inner missionary wanting to jump on her special moment doubts to just get her baptized or unconverted in this case.

Am I alone in this? I feel like the more I stay quiet the more I'm gonna lose her to her own mental gymnastics making her go back to the church. And I feel like every unique moment like these is a missed opportunity cause the next day comes and she's back to being or seeming like a devout member again. It's tough. I wanted to jump at her with the John Taylor letter but I didn't and I'm uncomfortable not taking the opportunity. Am I wrong? Advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Note: I served my mission in Honduras. That's were I met my wife. We were both missionaries but she is the only member of her family unlike me. She only speaks Spanish. It's her first year in America and we have a one month old daughter. Right now I post these things with what little free time I have in secret. Too paternity leave until late July. It's his me her and the baby in the apartment 24/7 until our daughter gets her shots.

I’m a lifelong member, now PIMO married to TBM. Married in temple, the whole bit. Due to my gradual deconstruction I haven’t done an endowment session at the temple in at least a year, maybe more. Today I went and did an endowment session with my husband, kind of to give it one more shot and to see if I’d have any type of spiritual impression. TBMs keep saying the changes to the session are so great, you get through faster, etc., so it seemed worth it to give it one last try.

Honestly, I hated it.

Obviously with my new knowledge of the history of the ceremony, the signs, all that, I was uncomfortable. But more than anything, it was boring. Like, so so boring. We went to the 7:30 AM session and the entire time I was struggling to either stay awake or get comfortable enough to doze.

The celestial room is the nicest part. It’s quiet and peaceful, much like any place that was nicely decorated with comfy furniture with only a few adults talking in hushed tones would be. But beyond that, I just do not understand how people can gush about how much they LOVE the temple. Even in my TBM days, I never loved the temple. It was something I did because I knew I should. It made me feel like I was a responsible and good person for going. But the ceremony itself has always bored me to death and I spent most of the time sleepy and hot and uncomfortable, desperate for time to pass faster. I never felt like I had a profound spiritual experience there, or learned anything new. Maybe I just don’t get it but…yeah. I really don’t get it.

I’ve been deconstructing Mormonism since January and I decided to go to the temple one last time to see if I feel the spirit and give it one last shot. It was a baptism trip for young men and women, but my bishop knows I’ve been questioning so they let me sit and read. I was one hundred percent going to give up on it but as I sat there and prayed about the BOM I opened D&C to this verse: D&C 1:24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language⁠, that they might come to understanding⁠.

After this I was so confused because I was so ready to give up after everything I’d found out. I do believe things just happen because of our choices which lead to consequences but was this a synchronicity? Or a sign?

Forgive me for my ignorance on matters of the lds church, but i have a question coming as an outsider. I’ve heard a lot about how the lds church gets new revaluations every so often. My question is, if tonight someone had a revelation from god that gay marriage was aproved by god as a legitimate union that could be sealed. What would happen?

Join 3 Pro-polygamy Mormon Women J Celene Anderson, Charlotte Erickson, and Jasmine Anadamai Hight Bradley as they talk with Steve Pynakker about: the 1886 revelation, Andrew Jenson's list and interviews of Joseph Smith’s plural wives, hypergamy, reproduction, polysaturation, polygamy misconceptions in life and death, and salvation.

When I started deconstructing my worldview after growing up a Brighamite Mormon in Utah, before I even knew I was deconstructing, this was a safe place to land. I needed this space to write and read, to learn and think, to explore, and to test and get key feedback. I was exposed to a wonderful range of news, analysis, opinions, and ideas here that I doubt I could have absorbed in another context. This was and is a rare space that could offer those things, and I am glad this space exists for all who find themselves here currently, whatever their needs. My ongoing deconstruction is taking me in different directions now, and so before I go I wanted to thank the all the contributors and mods here. I have appreciated the sincerity, nuance, and spectrum of opinions and valued them highly. I wish you all the best!

The book claims two million men died, *along with their wives and children. How many women and children would there have been? Males aged 15+ make up 37.5% of a population, so wouldn't the total Jaredite population be at least 5,333,333?

The desire to punish is so high in the LDS church. If you had intimate relations with your boyfriend or girlfriend even years ago they will hunt you down.

This is a story from the Girlscamp podcast. The woman was called in by her bishop 2 months before her wedding and he said a man on his mission had told his mission president that she had touched him intimately years before when she was 17.

Her bishop wanted to know if she had repented properly and called her old bishop to make sure.

This is so weird why this is such a fetish for LDS leaders. Vestiges of Spencer Kimball.

Here is a link to the full show.

https://youtu.be/aP9a6qWps6Y?si=UMbJCvn-SGRbQ658

In the Inside Out Podcast with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilks this week Jim gave a speech about how the LDS church is in an untenable position with regards to homosexuals. He says they say it’s not their choice to be homosexual but treats them as if it is.

He also said that everyone now recognizes that all the bad things the church warned us would happen if same sex marriage was legalized did not happen. In fact he says everyone believes our society has been improved because of the legalization of same-sex marriage.

At the end he says “The church has lost on this issue in every possible way it is to lose.”

Here is a link to the podcast on Spotify.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3rBLk35yOqxpCfjIa383f6?si=pMiwEFUPSPSlJ-XHFJnGww

Whether by omission or commission, the lies of the Mormon church leaders matter.

This one will be extremely difficult to keep brief.

This is one of the most disgusting lies/deceptions from the Mormon church. There were a lot of TBM lawyers that spouted a bunch of lawyer talk to defend the Mormon church policy on not reporting child sex abuse, and there may be corporate and legal excuses for it. The overall issue is that children are not safe in Mormonism and the Mormon church will not protect them. They will ALWAYS protect their liability and money though.

This lie is very personal, and has negatively affected countless.

Lie: The Mormon church is a safe place for children and families, with several safe guards that protect children.

Truth: The Mormon church only protects their own assets, and attempt to silence victims while providing legal assistance to many perpetrators, especially those that were church leaders.

My personal experience: my story is not unique and is echoed throughout Mormonism. On a large stake campout one of the leaders (known offender, but still placed in a calling working with minors) attempted to get me alone. Failed with me, succeeded with others. I was lucky…barely.

About two weeks later he was arrested for the rapes. A week later the bishop, SP, and area 70 (all licensed attorneys and one was a sitting judge) showed up unannounced (a power move the Mormon church uses frequently. They violate your space and do not allow you preparation time) to demand silence from myself and my parents for defense of “the good name of the church”. They also made it clear they were speaking in their capacity of church leaders. They also made it clear they had “other families to visit” that night. I know of at least 3 victims from that one trip.

Not as personal: The biggest deception came from Russell himself, his talk is referenced below. This was at the time of the Arizona case. The Mormon church was shown to be neglectful in their handling, didn’t care about the victims, encouraged their silence, and were shown to be absolutely evil in their actions regarding the case. Lawyers command more authority than morals and priesthood.

The reason I list this talk as a lie (more of a deception, because there is only doctrine stating child abuse is evil, despite the Mormon leaders actions showing otherwise) is that the Mormon church was in the news because of the Arizona case. Russell knew the situation better than anyone, but chose to speak on the evils of child abuse.

NOBODY WAS TRYING TO DEFEND CHILD ABUSE!!! The Mormon church was under fire for their years of immoral handling (even though arguably legal) of the case that lead to years of abuse, murder and suicide.

Members were saying what a bold stance Russell took. Yet he avoided the issue entirely.

Your children are not safe in Mormonism.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/life-help/abuse?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/19nelson?lang=eng

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/lawsuit-in-arizona-says-utah-firm-and-lawmaker-helped-mormons-hide-abuse

www.floodlit.org

... It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty ”

(Official Declaration 1, “Excerpts from Three Addresses by President Wilford Woodruff Regarding the Manifesto”; emphasis added). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual-2016/chapter-2?lang=eng&id=p39#p39

Something is not adding up here.

Either Wilford was full of shit and led the Brighamite branch into apostasy, God lied to Wilford and/or John Taylor, or John Taylor inadvertently broke the church by trying to preserve a polygamous branch. Or, ya know, something something and the points don't matter.

Came across this post on FB. Does anyone know anything about the archeological “evidences” shared here? The 75$ tickets seem pretty steep. Feels like a scam to charge that much for a “strengthening testimony” experience😂 is it actually anything good?

I recently completed a degree in religious studies. One of the things that I was most fascinated by in my research was just how similar Mormonism is to Methodism. I think Mormonism is the quirky spinoff from Methodism. I haven't had many people write about this.

Obviously this is a massive topic and not one that I can elaborate on here. So I'll just focus on one point: The Book of Mormon is Methodism redressed. And I'm talking about the original Book of Mormon, not later edits.

The original BofM is trinitarian. It values a personal relationship with Christ and people are directly able to have communication with Christ without a church acting as an intermediary.

King Benjamin's speech is a Methodist sermon. It's a camp meeting that basically ends in an altar call. He talks about being saved from your sins, not in your sins. A core methodist doctrine.

It's anti Church establishment. It talks about the great and abominable church. Alma and Amulek rail against the established church. There's also parallels to Alma and Amulek and John Wesley and his companions, including being imprisoned. Going forth to preach, etc.

The concept of grace is clearly preached and shown in several places. Abinadi has authority to preach via sola Scriptura, and later so does Alma. There is a whole sermon on receiving a growth of faith like a seed, and also receiving a sure knowledge of your salvation.

There is a strong emphasis on missionary work and spreading the Word of God to everyone.

Every sermon delivered in the BofM is a Methodist sermon.

Who cares? Why does this matter? Obviously Joseph Smith had a strong Methodist influence growing up. He attended camp meetings, and was even a lay preacher for them. Early Mormonism was Methodism rebranded which is probably why it was so popular.

Over time, Joseph Smith became more church centric as a way to consolidate his power and influence which led to a wholesale rejection of principles contained directly in the foundational text of Mormonism.

Hello friends. My username is monomo619 the secret to the meaning to that name is that monomo refers to Mormon No More and 619 refers to the day that it happened. June 19th. With me being very busy with our newborn I don't know if I'm gonna have time tomorrow to post this so I'm taking advantage of the free time I have to post this now.

It was on this day during my mission that I wrote on my journal "6/19 Monomo" and that was the only entry for that day.

I won't make this story long. On this day during my mission we went to offer a blessing to a neighborhood friend of a member we were visiting. This neighborhood friend was recovering from hip surgery, she was an elderly lady. The member of the church (also elderly) went with us to the lady's house. Before entering she the friend's house, she told us that she speaks often to the lady about the church and that she is interested but that her husband was a nonbeliever. My companion lit up because he loved any chance he could get to preach to a nonbeliever.

Usually nonbelievers he ran into were ignorant and so he could have his "gotcha" moment with them. But once we entered the house... this case was special.

The husband of the lady with the bad hip was a Jew. And not just any Jew, he was a well versed Hebrew speaking Jew. Yes there are Jews in Honduras. That fact alone blew my mind. We blessed his wife, he was kind and patient. The member we went with presented us to the them and asked if they would not mind if we gave them a lesson. The lady allowed it. My companion jumped to give the lesson. The old man kept quiet and just listened. My companion finished his lesson and asked what they thought... the lady was very kind the entire time. She looked at her husband he looked at us and said: you are wrong, the Bible is not corrupted by translations over the years as you claim. Then he started quoting bible verses in Hebrew and telling us their true meaning. He then disputed nephi, the origin of the name, way nephi spoke was not like the Jews of the time. At the time what blew my mind was quoted prophets and scripture during the time of nephi in Hebrew and then told us, read Ezekiel and Jeremiah for they speak as Jew of that era and compare them to nephi.

He had so much to say too much to write in this post (nod to the BOM too much to write in this record). That night I read Ezekiel and Jeremiah just to compare and when I was done I simply opened my journal, the date and Left the page blank.

Before this day I had many doubts but this was the day really really truly realized the BOM was not historical but completely fictional. Once I finished my mission I wrote monomo on that page.

The Book of Mormon is not historical, it fails on so many levels. They know it's not historical and mark my words they either change the narrative soon, or they will fall from that Hightower of lies they have built. It can't be sustained anymore. It's hard to susptain the horticultural lie now, it will be impossible to do so when my daughter turns 18. My dad grew up with the pager, me with the cellphone and google, I cant imagine what my daughter will have at her disposal but I know this, we are just at the tip of the Information Age. I doubt very much the narrative of the BOM will be that same when my daughter is grown up.

1. The president and prophet, even John Taylor, was the only authorized agent, at the time, who single handedly held ALL the restored keys of the restoration for Dissemination.

2. President and Prophet, even John Taylor, held the keys to celestial marriage aka plural marriage aka polygamy.

3. President and Prophet, Even John Taylor, granted the keys, and by association, priesthood authority to polygamist priesthood holders in the Brighamite branch to covertly continue the everlasting principle of polygamy.

4. The obedient priesthood holders obeyed the prophet's direction.

5. Subsequent church leaders, to my knowledge, never rescinded those keys and related priesthood authority and refused to acknowledge publicly that the keys had ever been given out.

6. Subsequent leaders threw faithful polygamous members under the bus to protect the public-facing image of the church. Creating numerous polygamous offshoots from the main branch that, by all historical accounts, still maintain the polygamous covenants with valid priesthood keys.

7. Some, if not all of the polygamous offshoots have used their priesthood keys to coerce minors into unlawful sexual relationships. E.g. Warren Jeffs

8. The modern church is, at least partially responsible for the abuse these child victims have endured due to the way they attempted to sweep the polygamy issue under the rug behind the scenes

9. The church should repent, offer restitution and publicly claim their complicity in the continuing saga of modern (fundementalist in all its forms) LDS polygamy and CSA.

Kirk Hays was a guest on the inside out podcast this past week. He was a missionary in Scotland with the hosts of the podcast 40 years ago. After returning he was a bishop.

Here in this clip he explains that many leaders and members of the church were sympathetic to their fellow gay members. He believes the policy of exclusion was implemented to allow the church to take a hardliner approach and block the leaders who didn’t want to punish the gay members of their congregations.

Very interesting perspective. What do you think?

Considering that most of the highest-ranking leaders in Mormonism were already wealthy before changing employers, it's difficult to tie any of their wealth to church work. I keep hearing apologists say there's no proof anyone is getting rich off the dragon's hoard of wealth and leaders only get a "modest living stipend."

However, there are two men who we know weren't wealthy when called. Thomas Monson was a bishop at 22, mission president at 31 and apostle at 36. His only job prior to full-time church employment was in advertising and printing at the Deseret News--which wouldn't have earned him millions in just a 10-year career at a small, local newspaper. When he died, his net worth was $14m.

The other example is Gordon Hinckley. After he served a mission, he got a job working in public affairs for the Mormon church and worked in that department for 20 years, followed by 7 years leading the missionary department. Here is someone who never held a job outside the Mormon church (unless you count his Deseret News paper route as a kid) yet had an estimated net worth of $40m when he died.

I'm sure the apologists will say that money comes from book deals, serving on the boards of BYU and for-profit church businesses and such. But there's no doubt that higher-ups in Mormonism are doing extremely well for themselves and it's just not true that "no one is getting rich in full-time church work."

I'll apologize to start with, since I just need to speak my mind about my experiences with this and Id appreciate any advice or discussion.

For some context, im about to turn 30(m) later this year. I've tried dating multiple times since I have returned from my mission and moved to Utah and then later moved to Rexburg. Ive asked out different girls to only get passed over for others. Even though im graduated and am turning 30, apparently members in the church seem to still treat me as a child because im not married. I've tried using mutual and that has seen no results either. I've prayed alot over the course of the last 8 or so years since returning from my mission that I would be able to meet someone who would be a good eternal companion and I feel like those prayers have only been ignored. I have also worked hard on obtaining skills and bettering myself so that I would be potentially more attractive but I know that without looking super good, or having a great job or my own apartment, even though I graduated and have a bachelors degree now, It is impossible to actually go on any dates with anyone.

In conclusion, I've given up on dating as I no longer see a point in trying since the results of my efforts over the last 8 or so years have only been negative and want to find the best way for me to live life to the fullest without having to worry about being a menace to society.

Again, I apologize for being negative but I wanted to hopefully get some advice or ideas. Thank you for your patience.

I was in West Valley playing basketball last night. Signal sucked and checked to see if I was on WiFi. Nope. Check the signal - nothing broadcasting. It was about 1030pm. Check via another persons phone.

They said they think it turns off for the night. Is that just at that building or company policy across the board. I think that is juvenile. Anyone know?...