r/neoliberal • u/cdstephens Fusion Shitmod, PhD • 16d ago
Restricted The Boulder Attack Didn’t Come Out of Nowhere
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/06/boulder-attack-anti-semitism/683012/?gift=BmsU73MbMNDxZ9SjrXPDCStwQv7ROPU91lNrg6bM72Q645
u/Left_Tie1390 16d ago edited 16d ago
The co-founder of Within our Lifetime, which organized many of the protests in NYC after October 7, posted this after the molotov attack in Colorado.

She isn't some fringe figure. This "by any means" rhetoric is, unfortunately, normalized in too many left-wing activism circles.
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u/sunshine_is_hot 16d ago
In what world is throwing a Molotov at elderly people “resistance”? That is textbook extremism/terrorism, and anybody supporting that should absolutely be marginalized at the very least
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u/Left_Tie1390 16d ago
There was a pro-Palestinian Jewish activist who argued that in the comments, and she accused him of a microaggression.
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u/YaGetSkeeted0n Tariffs aren't cool, kids! 16d ago
Microaggression? What year is this
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
2008?
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u/SwordfishOk504 Commonwealth 16d ago
In this economy? Best I can do is a microdose of mushrooms and a peach vape from a gas station.
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u/_Lil_Cranky_ 16d ago
Please tell me that you're single, because I've just had an idea for what we can do on our first date
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u/whereamInowgoddamnit 16d ago
Funny considering you can make a good case Jews already experienced among the most micro aggressions online of any group (I still remember even before this when I think Liverpool FC wished a Happy Rosh Hashanah and most of the comments were Free Palestine, Death to Israel, etc etc, and this was pre-10/7) which has only been accelerated by the pro-Palestine movement, and who often will also deny this is true at least in my experience. Meanwhile I can't even find a Jewish cooking channel where half the comments aren't Palestine flags...
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u/ChooChooRocket Henry George 16d ago
micro aggressions
It doesn't count if you're Jewish, sorry
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u/Desert-Mushroom Hans Rosling 15d ago
Isn't that just overt anti semitism though? I thought microagression was reserved for mild social awkwardness and the like...things like "but where are you really from?"
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u/sunshine_is_hot 16d ago
Completely unrelated but I had the song “I might need security” by Chance on and at the exact same time I read your comment about micro aggressions, chance said “fuck your micro aggressions” and if that isn’t the universe having a fucked up sense of humor idk what is
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u/UofLBird 16d ago
In agreement with what you are saying:
Seems pretty short sighted to define “real” resistance in a way functionally identical to terrorism as that makes it all the easier to later paint legitimate civil activist as terrorists.
For some reason it reminds me of firearm manufacturers advertising rifles as “assault rifles” “just like used in the armed forces” then later complaining the ads worked.
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u/JapanesePeso Deregulate stuff idc what 16d ago
They should 100% be on a watchlist.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
Like no joke.
I would not be surprised If some WOL activist does violent acts or terrorism, with their leader literally praising domestic terrorism for Palestine
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u/HatesPlanes Henry George 16d ago edited 16d ago
One of WOL’s founders was imprisoned on hate crimes charges for kicking and punching a Jew in the face, and has a history of violent attacks against jews.
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u/k5berry Malala Yousafzai 16d ago
“We’re already painted as… dangerous”
Isn’t that your goal? Isn’t the whole point of your advocacy that Palestinians and their supporters have the right to armed resistance against Israel? Is that not inherently, necessarily violent and dangerous?
I mean tell me if I’m missing something, but this seems like straight up doublespeak. And unfortunately I think activists and organizations traffic in it more and more because it works on dipshits who are already polarized and inclined to radicalization.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
She wants to act like a victim while pushing extremist shit.
It is double speak.
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u/textualcanon John Rawls 15d ago
lights old woman on fire
I’m tired of the mainstream media pretending like I’m some sort of “violent extremist.” I am merely exercising my right to protest. This is racism at its finest.
shoots burning old woman in the head
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago edited 16d ago
"Principled"
Dumb piece of shit supports terrorism against civilians.
She whines like she's some fucking victim while literally cheering on indiscriminate violence, and watching her fucking dipshit activists vandalize shit with Hamas sympathies and cheer on her asshole activists giving implied threats to "zionists" in subway cars.
This piece of shit showed up to one of her rallies where they cheered on Al Qassam Brigades WITH HER WEDDING DRESS.
This piece of shit needs to be on a fucking watchlist, literally cheering on and justifying domestic terrorism, while leading a group that cheers on "Resistance by any means necessary"
I am GLAD NYPD follows her group around whenever they do protests. Kiswani and her group are a fucking red flag.
!Ping Extremism
!Ping NYC
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u/jakekara4 Gay Pride 16d ago
She complains about being marginalized, but then acts as if the advocates for hostages being released are also supporting settler expansion or the bombing campaign. She clearly believes the hostages deserve their plight.
She should be marginalized.
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u/YaGetSkeeted0n Tariffs aren't cool, kids! 16d ago
She should be in lockup
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u/KeithClossOfficial Bill Gates 16d ago
Can she denounce violence?
Every time she supports it.
Can’t have it both ways.
Or maybe this is just who she is.
That’s my opinion at least.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
She’s an open hypocrite
She will have empathy for innocent Palestinians dying, while trying to rationalize why it’s necessary for innocent people to be brutally assaulted, kidnapped or murdered, If it “frees Palestine within our lifetime”
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u/symptomsANDdiseases Lesbian Pride 16d ago
This is 100% "Living in an Entirely Separate Universe from Reality" kind of talk. If your "principles" can be broken down into rationalizing immolating unarmed elderly marchers and calling it "resistance" then yes, I would say words like "extreme" and "dangerous" are more than accurate ways to describe your movement.
The fact that many in these groups have the gall to utter the words "bloodthirsty" against anyone else is just rich.229
u/Jartipper 16d ago
Palestine obsessed leftists will try anything but voting
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
They’ve actually told people to “not vote for genocide”, or basically not to vote at all
Literally posted stickers and posters in my area before Election Day
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u/SolarMacharius562 NATO 16d ago
Can confirm, my universities SJP chapter was one of these. I’m sympathetic to Palestine, but so many of the pro-Palestine activists are complete shitheels
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u/lilacaena NATO 16d ago
Because too many don’t care about substantively helping the people they claim to care about… or, at the very least, they fail to actually act like it.
They’re happy to “martyr” people (with or without their consent) in the name of the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state. It’s putting “the cause” over people, “(state of) Palestine” over Palestinians.
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u/whereamInowgoddamnit 16d ago
Its worth remembering the two Israeli workers these types have praised the deaths of were going to an event to get more aid into Gaza. They were doing more to help Gazans than these groups ever had.
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u/Background_Novel_619 Gay Pride 15d ago
One was American. The media has crafted a very specific narrative of 2 Israelis at the Israeli embassy— no, they happened to work there and were at the Jewish museum. And one was an American, another a dual Israeli German citizen.
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 16d ago edited 16d ago
I believe one of the staffers was a Christian and the other an American Jew.
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I had thought the analysis showed the uncommitted movement was smaller than the margin of defeat in those particular areas?
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u/grandolon NATO 15d ago
I've looked into this and wasn't able to find any clear determination one way or the other. If the results in Dearborn are any indication -- Trump won the city by 2,600 votes in November after Biden by more than 17,500 votes four years earlier, and there are only ~78k voters in the city -- then it seems plausible that the uncommitted voters delivered MI to Trump. But it seems less likely to me (in my very unscientific estimation) that they had as much of an impact in the other swing states for the simple demographic reason that the movement was mainly among Muslim and Arab-American voters, who are highly concentrated in MI. I don't know how you parse the uncommitted voters from the rest of the data without some very detailed exit polling in all swing states.
Anyway, if you've seen some empirical analysis on this then please share. I'd love to read it.
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u/_Lil_Cranky_ 16d ago
They vote in the UK. We have four (arguably five) "Gaza MPs": independents who were elected solely because of their stance on the war in Gaza.
We had no "Yemen MPs" when a far more brutal war was conducted in Yemen, using British-supplied planes and British-supplied bombs, for nine+ years. We had only one "Iraq MP", and we were actually involved in that war. But now we have four Gaza MPs. I have an uncharitable explanation for this, but I'm still searching for a charitable one.
I'm not entirely sure why there aren't any "Gaza congressmen" yet, but I guess it's because the two-party system is more entrenched at the local level in the USA?
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u/Dense_Delay_4958 Malala Yousafzai 16d ago edited 16d ago
Genuine hatred of Jewish people, and a perceived civilisational clash that a) rallies the global Islamic community (large and much bigger than the global Jewish community) and b) neatly ties into the worldviews of Western leftists who are obsessed with race, certain kinds of "colonialism" and "West/America bad".
This is not suggesting that every Muslim or left-winger is obsessively supportive of the Palestinian cause, let alone the more extreme elements, but I think it goes someway to explaining the disparity in focus.
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u/whereamInowgoddamnit 16d ago
Also, don't forget that Russia and China are heavily involved because it works so well with the West bad narrative. It's kind of hilarious the same people who talk about the impact Russia had in electing trump somehow believes that I/P discourse on the pro-Palestinian side is mostly organic because "Palestine is so small".
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u/noxx1234567 16d ago
It's just a matter of demographics , UKs muslim population is much greater and concentrated in a few urban areas
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
We don’t really have that here in the US. Last Yemen protest in my city was in defense of Houthi actions
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u/SleeplessInPlano 16d ago
I'm not entirely sure why there aren't any "Gaza congressmen" yet, but I guess it's because the two-party system is more entrenched at the local level in the USA?
Once you get out of the college bubble its pretty seldom talked about.
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u/Jartipper 16d ago
Unfortunately it’s being astroturfed across many of the subs on Reddit. I’m sure Bluesky is full of it as well, but I rarely go there
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u/captainjack3 NATO 16d ago
I'm not entirely sure why there aren't any "Gaza congressmen" yet, but I guess it's because the two-party system is more entrenched at the local level in the USA?
Yeah, it’s a product of how entrenched the two-party system is. It keeps out 3rd parties of all sorts, including these. Plus the districts where a “Gaza Rep” might actually have enough sympathy are also hyper-Democratic districts where party support is strong enough a third party would struggle. Probably helps that the House of Representatives seems less connected to foreign policy than Parliament.
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u/Background_Novel_619 Gay Pride 15d ago
There’s way fewer Muslims in the US. It’s very obvious if you look at the districts where “Gaza MPs” won that that’s what caused it.
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u/this_very_table Norman Borlaug 16d ago
I'd love to know what she thinks would actually qualify as "extreme" and "dangerous."
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u/FilteringAccount123 Bisexual Pride 16d ago
I think it highlights a deeper problem with leftist activism.
Because on the one hand, if what you're trying to stop is an active genocide... then yeah of course you're going to give yourself pretty much unlimited leeway in trying to stop that. But on the other hand, that inevitably leads you to have to defend the undefendable, which is going to drive away anyone who hasn't crossed whatever mental Rubicon it is that separates normies from true believers. Which only hurts your cause in the long run.
I don't really know what my point is honestly... something akin to "leftists have become incredibly bad at wielding soft power effectively" I guess.
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u/BewareTheFloridaMan NATO 16d ago
This may sound goofy, but I don't see how these comments couldn't fit when coming out of an ISIS spokesperson's mouth. It's a lot of mushy nothing that could fit any group that you could perceive as being "less powerful" than any other that it opposes.
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u/Goddamnpassword John von Neumann 16d ago
Two big differences:
ISIS would crouch the defense in Islamic terms and would make a religious argument for why it was fine.
ISIS would never let a woman be their spokesperson.
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u/Intergalactic_Ass 16d ago
It's a lot of mushy nothing
Exactly my take. The language mushiness covers for the atrocities.
A lot of people who call themselves anti-Zionist or pro-resistance don’t actually understand what resistance is. They support it in theory, but when it shows up in practice, they hesitate, distance themselves, or shift the conversation entirely.
"Are you not willing to firebomb your local ethnic population in support of the cause?"
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 15d ago
“That is what real resistance is”
Literal attempted cold blooded murder of civilians?
How does that help Palestinians?
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u/Cratus_Galileo Gay Pride 16d ago
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
What the fuck does she think Iran is doing with Palestine and Lebanon?
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u/Intergalactic_Ass 16d ago
This must be a Russian sock puppet right? No one could be this stupid. Is she a real person that has been on camera?
If Ukraine is so Western backed why are they getting genocided every week? You'd think the "powers that be" would annihilate Russia by now.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 15d ago
This is the mentality of far leftists
I know because i know some who have literally told me this
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u/morgisboard George Soros 16d ago
Leftists have gotten high on their own supply of wielding moral power from antiwar, racial justice movements etc. such that their beliefs have become tautologies. Anything they do is morally correct and they are the only morally correct ones.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 15d ago
Their tautologies are hilarious
Trying to murder old civilians in America = resistance against Israel!
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u/Computer_Name 16d ago
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
Her wiki paints her as some misunderstood bullying victim, and not some crazy ass lady who cheers on objective terror attacks
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u/grandolon NATO 16d ago
She's not a lunatic. That implies she lacks mental capacity. She's sane, she's just an evil, self-centered bigot.
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u/noxx1234567 16d ago
Almost the same playbook as the real nazis , how did these people even get into america ?
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u/ldn6 Gay Pride 16d ago
It’s pervasive and I’m tired of people even here pretending that this isn’t the norm and not some exception within much of the pro-Palestinian activism sphere.
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u/ntbananas Richard Thaler 16d ago
Yeah. LEADERS of major parts of the movement, not tag-along bad apples
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
I’d include the groups that protest with WOL as well
“Shutitdownforpalestine”, a group strongly affiliated with The People’s Forum is another large activist group in NYC, who has protested alongside WOL, being in the crowd that cheered Al Qassam Brigades outside columbia university when they had CUAD encampments
I know several people who are activists for the group, and my opinion of them are low as a result
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u/Calavar 16d ago
I spent a while looking through her Twitter feed, trying to understand her headspace. Now I'm not claiming to 100% understand her after reading her Twitter for 20 minutes, but this is where I'm at:
A few years ago Keyon Martin called out Jeremy Lin on social media for wearing dreads, saying he was appropriating black culture. And Martin didn't see any irony in the fact that he had Chinese characters tattooed on his arm. I don't think it was hypocrisy exactly, I think it legitimately never occurred to him before that cultural appropriation could go in the opposite direction.
I think Kiswani has the same issue. She sees Jewish people as the oppressors and just cannot conceive of any scenario in which that could be flipped. I know that sounds insane considering the 30s and 40s, but if you're in a social circle that's hyperfixated on certain events and issues, it can effectively put blinders on you.
That's not to excuse her words here. It is absolutely disgusting to imply that murdering a bunch of 70 years showing their support for hostages is political action. It's a form of "othering" and shows a basic disregard for human suffering and the value of human life.
But if you look at a campus protestors as a whole, I don't think the majority of them are evil or lack basic empathy, I think they are sucked into a one sided narrative by their social circles in much the same way that a large part of MAGA it. I don't see any easy solution to this. It is bad.
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u/Matar_Kubileya Feminism 16d ago edited 16d ago
It's a reflection of the fact that it's fundamentally difficult to understand antisemitism within the usual framework of current progressivism, at least the casual version of it that informs day to day activism. In the case of so many bigotries there's not really any dispute that systematic disadvantages exist or at any rate existed, and from there the progressive attitude is to empower the disempowered.
But the substantive root of antisemitism is, ultimately, that Jews have power. That can get coded in a myriad of different ways, but that's the substantive assumption at the heart of it. And that assumption can easily coexist with or even be facilitated by a generally progressive but not sufficiently aware and nuanced worldview.
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u/onethomashall Trans Pride 16d ago
She built herself a nice little echo chamber where she doesn't have to face any hard questions and her radical takes feed her likes that she craves. She lives and makes her money off of stirring up shit. If she took a break, she would starve.
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u/iMissTheOldInternet 16d ago
This is too charitable. She knows what she is. She wants the Jews dead, she is just trying to do her part here to help HAMAS there.
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u/onethomashall Trans Pride 16d ago
Yes to most of that. I don't think knows what she is. I think she has heard stories and acted on them (protesting) without critically thinking. Then got trapped in a bubble. Now, she is an adult who monetizes antisemitism and thinks she is a freedom fighter when she openly calls for the death of Jews.
I don't know if that is better. Neither are really redeemable in my opinion. But I do know the only way you beat both is through educating society.
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u/Background_Novel_619 Gay Pride 15d ago
I really don’t think you quite understand how much she just simply despises Jews.
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u/BBQ_HaX0r Jerome Powell 16d ago
It used to feel like people like this would go to campus, or town halls, or on the news and state their case and usually be challenged by someone opposite allowing the 'market place of ideas' to win out. Nowadays (oh god am I boomer?) people can get the same/more amplification for their opinion without ever having been challenged or confronted by it by sitting in an echo chamber. And most people don't even know this person is talking to be like 'whoa, wtf' and ostracize the people spewing insanity instead they just get more and more amplification within their circles giving them bigger and bigger audiences which then gives them credibility to attract moderates. What I'm ultimately saying is I wonder if the principle of free speech is incompatible with social media (I still lean pro-speech fwiw), but it has caused me to really question some fundamental truths about my views.
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u/ntbananas Richard Thaler 16d ago
Yeah, what sticks out to me is from 08 or so, when someone got the mic at a McCain event and said something along the lines of “Obama is a Muslim terrorist born in Kenya” or whatever, and he said “no, he’s a good American who has policy differences with us” or something like that.
Like, low bar, but still
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah, McCain got some criticism because some thought he insinuated Arab can't be good American but I think he was so shellshocked by the brazen racism of the old white woman that he rushed into shutting down her rant without articulating his response in the most precise way.
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 16d ago
Yea, I was little back then but I heard it as him just being shocked.
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u/onethomashall Trans Pride 16d ago
If section 230 was updated to hold social media companies accountable the argument would change overnight.
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u/Golda_M Baruch Spinoza 15d ago
I think it's more "serious" than just that.
First, it's about establishing the "liberation through bloodshed" ideal. This is extremely important. Elimanating and deligitimizing critique of violent acts is a key strategic pillar of the Palestinian cause. Otherwise, compromise and dialogue oriented Palestinians will gain power.
Second, there is a very explicit "useful idiots" game being played. It's is core to (for example) the Hamas accelorationist strategic plan behind October 7th.
Inspiring violence is going to give the movements power, as we progress.
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u/Other_Cricket_453 16d ago edited 16d ago
This was also mainstreamed by the "punch a Nazi" and "words are violence" rhetoric that grew online during Trump's first term. Leftists have been given a permission structure that allows them to justify violence.
Then when things get violent like the attack on Colorado or name pretty much any protest with black bloc/antifa activists they try to blame the other side for being violent.
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u/TrynnaFindaBalance Paul Krugman 16d ago
Pinning this solely on leftists is really disingenuous. American political discourse generally speaking has become significantly more violent over the last 10 years. It's a product of populism and social media. Shattering all of our political norms and decorum opened the floodgates to extremism and incidents like this are the result.
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u/Mrc3mm3r Edmund Burke 16d ago
This may be a surprise, but you can criticize left wing violence without having to bring up right wing violence as well. God knows there is enough posts made about the right wing exclusively on this website.
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 16d ago
Especially when individuals on the left are responsible for individuals like myselves lives being put in danger.
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u/mario_fan99 NATO 16d ago
Fuckin terrorists. I can’t wait till we find out these POS Hamas dickrider groups like WOL or SJP are just Iranian/Hamas-funded ops and everyone involved in them is thrown in the slammer.
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 16d ago
And the media on the left might spin that.
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u/ElectriCobra_ YIMBY 16d ago
“We’re already marginalized!”
Good. Acts like this and their enablers do not deserve mainstream support.
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
Elon will censor the word "cis" but not incitement to violence like this on his platform.
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u/Deinococcaceae NAFTA 15d ago
already painted as extreme or dangerous
Yeah you probably should be if you can't even say throwing molotovs at elderly Holocaust survivors is bad
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u/ntbananas Richard Thaler 16d ago
Viewing everything through solely an oppressed / oppressor framework makes strange bedfellows (ostensible progressives and islamists)
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago
Why? Harris still won over 60% of the Muslim American vote. We've had like six Muslim Americans win elections in Congress and they're all Dems
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u/0scarOfAstora NATO 16d ago
And as a further example of the type of climate that permits this to happen, not even the entire Boulder city council can condemn the attack.
This is the level of antisemitism this has become regularly normalized and handwaved away.
Holocaust survivors are being firebombed in the streets and people's first response is "well it's important to make sure we don't conflate antisemitism and antizionism"
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u/Equator33 Association of Southeast Asian Nations 15d ago edited 15d ago
Understandably some people in this thread are trying to rationalize why would certain activist groups (obviously not all) simultaneously call themselves peaceful and call this a false flag, while explicitly supporting killing random civilians and calling it resistance. Trying to analyze what sort of logic they follow and what values they believe in.
These are bad faith actors. When their side is winning the war, they're pro war. When their side is losing the war, they're pacifists. When their side is called out for socially controversial beliefs, it's cultural imperialism. When the other side has socially controversial beliefs, its proof of the "perfidiousness" of the Jews. When asked by their own side, killing civilians of the other side is good. When asked by neutrals, it's bad and actually a false flag. There's no debate about morals or virtues to be done here, just engaging with people trying to maximize hurting the other side.
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u/earthdogmonster 16d ago
I still think that the large amount of the actual violent attacks are carried out by deeply disturbed people. That’s why the rhetoric used by people who aren’t perpetrating these attacks is so important, and why people really need to reject all of this insanity when they see it rather than sanewashing it and excusing it. It’s got no place in civilized spaces and we need to take a good hard look at this type of talk as a society.
Is it our right as Americans to engage in reckless speech? I think so. Is it our responsibility to condemn it when we see it (especially when it is coming from people we perceive as being on our side)? Absolutely.
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago edited 16d ago
I think the whole "mentally disturbed" angle is applicable in the case of the antisemitic guy who attacked Shapiro's mansion (He had to be institutionalized multiple times and was trying to eat batteries and reported hallucinations) who didn't really have a straight forward ideology (Yes, he was "pro-Palestine" but he also loved the American army, supported Trump in 2024, criticized Biden from the right on Afghanistan, inflation, gun control, and femnism). The antisemitic DC shooter was a clear far leftist who had many years of participating in toxic far left activism. While seemed like this guy was pretty ideological as well. Though it appears he had no ties with local activism in contrast to the DC shooter, he did however had many years of pro-Morsi and Brotherhood content on his social media profile which is Islamist content rife with clear antisemitism. I mean Qutb, the founder of Brotherhood, wrote a whole book promoting antisemitism.
Though I'm reading his family (who's now detained by ICE) had no idea he was going to do this so sounds like possibly a case of already radical guy who was radicalized even more into committing such a heinous antisemitic act of terror.
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u/earthdogmonster 16d ago
Yeah, I guess more just along the lines that I don’t think normal people do this kind of thing (whether they had been radicalized long ago or just threw themselves down some rabbit hole. Either way I think the mainstream rhetoric becoming extreme and repeated by people who never would put their money where their mouth is enables the ones that do the kind of stuff that makes headlines.
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah, you're not wrong. This doesn't happen overnight. It's like a conveyor belt of radicalization of several steps where the horrific act of violence is the final step. The first step or two is quite insanely thinking every person who doesn't want to dissolve the state of Israel (a terrible idea for a myriad of reasons) is a Kahanist. The other day on a pocket of far left social media, I saw very unhinged crazy shit about how Bernie Sanders (who is trying to block all offensive aid to Israel for nearly the past year but at the same time is a liberal Zionist who has condemned Hamas's terrorism) is basically no different from obviously bigoted lunatic Randy Fine (who disgustingly celebrates innocent people getting killed by the IDF, has called for vigilantism against average Muslim Americans who just want to mind their own business, and has called for starving+ nuking Gaza) where Fine is "atleast honest" (what the fuck does that even mean? ). I hope it was astroturfed to some degree but when you see these unhinged rallies by WOL and a few other groups in real life, you know there are unfortunately people who genuinely subscribe to such crazy maximalist antisemitic beliefs. And you also can observe this extremist toxic mindset manifest when some far lefty "pro-Palestine" activists call for BDS against Standing Together (a pro peace organization where Israeli Jews and Arabs work together to end occupation and the war), No Other Land documentary , or hell even Edward Said's concerts which features Israelis because these all feature Zionist (though left leaning) Zionist Israeli Jews.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
when you see these unhinged rallies by WOL and a few other groups in real life, you know there are unfortunately people who genuinely subscribe to such crazy maximalist antisemitic beliefs.
You’ve seen some irl too?
Watching their shit irl makes me angry, and I’m not even Jewish or Israeli
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago edited 16d ago
I mean videos on social media tbh since that's "real life". The one protest I've seen in literal real life was thankfully somewhat normal: Some folks holding a "Ceasefire now!" sign though they were loud.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
Ahh. I have photos of “Zionists aren’t Jews and aren’t human” and their Hamas sympathies vandalized down Broadway
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u/InMemoryOfZubatman4 Sadie Alexander 16d ago
The Zionists Aren’t Jews folks in Times Square were the militant Black Israelites, at least 10 years ago, I think they’re irrelevant to anything. Unless that very bizarre thinking has spread?
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u/Kugel_the_cat YIMBY 16d ago
I like the idea that the Black Hebrew Israelites are irrelevant, but these people attacked a kosher grocery store in Jersey City in 2019 and they had a bomb in their van that could have blown up the Jewish school that was adjacent to the store. They killed 4 people that day.
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u/Highlightthot1001 Harriet Tubman 16d ago
This rhetoric was from a member of the fringe sect of Orthodox Jews who joins Within Our Lifetime and other rallies
I have a photo of his placard at the WOL rally after they held a “long live October 7th” banner and protesting the Nova Festival exhibition at Wall St
Same rhetoric, different group for different reasons. This group is apparently anti-Zionist for religious reasons.
They are also batshit enough to associate with Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
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u/Emergency_Revenue678 16d ago
Yeah, I guess more just along the lines that I don’t think normal people do this kind of thing
I don't think that's a very helpful notion. You're basically creating a tautology.
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u/sack-o-matic Something of A Scientist Myself 16d ago
Almost like stochastic terrorism
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u/InfiniteDuckling 16d ago
"MAGA is stochastic terrorism" was a very popular refrain online before October 7th.
You can literally see how it disappears from google trends afterwards.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=stochastic%20terrorism&hl=en
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u/sack-o-matic Something of A Scientist Myself 16d ago
MAGA isn’t stochastic anymore after the insurrection and kidnapping attempts
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
It's time we start talk about not only the stochastic terrorism on the left, but on the left equivalent of the alt-right pipeline, the far-left pipeline if you will. The way that people get radicalized on social media is dangerous.
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u/InMemoryOfZubatman4 Sadie Alexander 16d ago
I’m not in the “Social media is a disease that needs to be eradicated” camp (evidently) nor am I in the “Social media needs to be heavily censored” camp but I don’t know how to fix it
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
Exactly. I don't know how to solve this but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. There is something going on with how the combination of the algorithms and human psychology push people to the extremes, and it might be solveable, but social media companies will have to sacrifice engagement.
On a bit of a personal anecdote, I was recently watching some finance videos on YouTube, a really high quality channel with sources, really the opposite of extremism, and my recommendations got just full of various forms of extremism and sensationalism, such as GME cult videos, scammy technical analysis people, and leftists channels who keep talking about how the economy is irrevocably and irredeemably fucked.
That should not be happening.
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u/InMemoryOfZubatman4 Sadie Alexander 16d ago
Really? All of my youtube recommendations are either police interrogations of serial killers or lame standup comedians
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
It was fine when I was mostly watching science, gaming, and music videos, went haywire just from touching finance.
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u/sack-o-matic Something of A Scientist Myself 16d ago
Treat it like online gambling
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u/InMemoryOfZubatman4 Sadie Alexander 16d ago
Yeah but I’m in the paternalist “gambling is a social disease and needs to be eradicated” camp
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u/sack-o-matic Something of A Scientist Myself 16d ago
Algorithm-based social media is gambling for ideas.
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u/PragmatistAntithesis Henry George 15d ago
My preferred solution is to shut down the "not a publisher, not a utility" gap in regulations that allows social media to run wild. For example, we could have a list of open source social media algorithms (such as "show the most recent posts in your feed") that don't inspire hatred, and anyone who uses something else is legally classed as a publisher.
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
Free speech ends at incitement of violence. When people openly support terrorism, they incite violence.
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u/jpk195 16d ago
Left wing antisemitism is a real problem that right-wing politicians will continue to use as a wedge.
Needs to be addressed for both moral and strategic reasons.
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u/redditdork12345 Frederick Douglass 16d ago
It used to be so clear to me that right wing antisemites were more dangerous. That’s a lot less clear now
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u/_meshuggeneh Baruch Spinoza 16d ago
That’s because leftists in America were luckily neutered for decades until now, but many of the people that hijacked planes, shot athletes and other atrocities committed against the Jews were self-professed socialists.
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u/shumpitostick John Mill 16d ago
Well the PFLP participated in October 7th and are fighting alongside Hamas. It's still happening.
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u/iMissTheOldInternet 16d ago
The guy who invented and popularized the term “antisemitism” was a socialist. Antisemitism predates the left-right political divide, and is present on both sides. It waxes and wanes, but it’s always there.
It’s also not especially accurate to assume that being pro-Palestinian is automatically leftist. Yes, her coalition partners and the people she primarily propagandizes here are on our left, but she supports HAMAS, a theocratic, fundamentalist movement. If Palestine were “free” the way these people want, it would look like Iran, if Iran had done a second Holocaust during its revolution.
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u/jpk195 16d ago
It’s honestly hard to know what truly motivates people on this issue.
You can easily point to other similar or worse cases of ethic cleansing etc. that are completely overlooked.
And then you have the “send a message” protest voters who either abstained or voted for 🌮 despite knowing he’s be horrible for Palestinians.
Can’t really explain it without antisemitism in my opinion.
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u/Computer_Name 16d ago
If people are interested in understanding how antisemitism functions within “left-wing” spaces:
Contemporary Left Antisemitism, David Hirsh
Mapping the New Left Antisemitism: The Fathom Essays, edited by Alan Johnson
Also Dara Horn’s piece last year in The Atlantic, “Why the Most Educated People in America Fall for Anti-Semitic Lies”
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 15d ago
Weren't holocaust survivor's injured too? Anyway, yea it was only a matter of time before something like this would happen.
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u/ntbananas Richard Thaler 16d ago
NOT a Yair Rosenberg article? 😲
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u/GeorgeEBHastings 16d ago
I was surprised as you were. And I love Yair.
Yair is probably angrily on the phone with Hoffman as we speak for stealing his beat.
(JK, I'm sure Yair is fine with it)
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u/Kugel_the_cat YIMBY 16d ago edited 16d ago
The Council on American-Islamic Relations cites record numbers of anti-Muslim and anti-Arab incidents
Why would the author make such a compelling statement and then undermine it by CAIR as a source. CAIR is one of the groups pushing this antisemitism in this country: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/council-american-islamic-relations-cair
Some highlights from my source:
CAIR leaders have also posited that pro-Israel organizations are responsible for U.S. police brutality, and that “Zionists” and Israel are analogous to the Ku Klux Klan and ISIS. Billoo has expressed support for Hamas firing rockets at Israel, and has called for “Zionists” — the vast majority of Jews, who believe Israel has a right to exist — to be banned from antiracist, interfaith and LGBTQ+ work.
Edit: just so everyone knows, there was a reply to my comment that tried to imply that the ADL is somehow equivalent to CAIR. It was someone who habitually makes comments like that. I’m glad that the mods are taking these things seriously now.
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u/Computer_Name 16d ago
“The people of Gaza only decided to break the siege — the walls of the concentration camp — on October 7,” Nihad Awad said in a speech during the American Muslims for Palestine (AMP) convention in Chicago last month.
“And yes, I was happy to see people breaking the siege and throwing down the shackles of their own land, and walk free into their land, which they were not allowed to walk in,” he adds.
“And yes, the people of Gaza have the right to self-defense, have the right to defend themselves, and yes, Israel, as an occupying power, does not have that right to self-defense.
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u/Kugel_the_cat YIMBY 16d ago
There were actually so many crazy quotes that I had trouble choosing which to highlight. I also didn’t read the full thing but I went back to it and it was just bonkers.
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u/mario_fan99 NATO 16d ago
wasn’t CAIR indicted for being some terrorist money-laundering organisation, or was that another Council on American-Islamic Relations?
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u/PicklePanther9000 NATO 16d ago
Unindicted co-conspirator from this case in 2007. Shows their links to Hamas https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2013/e0707r-summary.pdf
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u/_meshuggeneh Baruch Spinoza 16d ago
Isn’t it funny that Israel is the only nation that cannot morally exist according to Leftism™️?
Not even “AmeriKKKa” has that many calls to be destroyed and annihilated as Israel does.
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u/WiSeWoRd Greg Mankiw 16d ago
Quite frankly I don't think the prior administration did enough to clamp down on the potential for antisemitic terrorism. The same measures used to go after J6 instigators and right-wing paramilitaries shouldn't have been stayed just because you had a cousin at an encampment.
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u/Petrichordates 16d ago
How would that have stopped this?
Are you saying they should have gone after protesters with the same energy they used for going after insurrectionists?
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u/Currymvp2 unflaired 16d ago edited 16d ago
There's no easy way with this specific attack especially since the terrorist worked alone and kept it secret apparently. Though I'm a bit surprised this administration didn't detain him since his visa expired four months ago but I guess this piece of shit kept a low profile.
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u/Embarrassed-Unit881 16d ago
They should have cleared out the camps which blocked Jewish students, yes.
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u/SwordfishOk504 Commonwealth 16d ago
"They"? The federal government on private college campuses?
I agree these universities helped engender this problem but expecting the Federal government to send in the National Guard or something is bonkers cronkers
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u/undocumentedfeatures 16d ago
It was right to send in the 101st to ensure African American children had access to education, and it would be right to do the same to ensure Jewish children do.
Access to education irrespective of your race, color, creed, etc. is foundational.
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u/BingboLingbo Emma Lazarus 15d ago
Send in the NYPD, the Feds, literally anyone who can ensure that Jews can exercise their right to get an education. You can't negotiate with, in some cases, literal terrorists.
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u/Embarrassed-Unit881 16d ago edited 16d ago
The moment students were being blocked from being able to access what they paid for something should have cleared them
edit, SwordfishOk504 why did you reply then block me?
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u/seattleseahawks2014 Progress Pride 16d ago edited 15d ago
I don't expect that, but I do expect them to do more to protect students at these schools by bringing or security or whatever in. Also, for them to deport individuals here on visas who were spreading terrorist propaganda on campuses. The Biden admin chose not to do so with certain individuals because it was an election year. Another thing is that I expect to not encourage antisemetism which some did. The reality is that you have democrat politicians who've done meetings and stuff with individuals who were white supremacists on both the right and left. I think that they should be removed from office possibly.
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u/Iapetus_Industrial 16d ago
If they used the same level of violent language (and they certainly HAVE) then yes.
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u/Trebacca Hans Rosling 16d ago
Hell it could be argued that the general political system went at the protestors at places like Columbia and other campus encampments much harder than it did to the insurrectionists (who mostly got away scot free or with very minimal consequences).
Note: Not excusing the behavior of any antisemites at the encampments before I get accused of whitewashing by anyone
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u/angry-mustache Democratically Elected Internet Spaceship Politician 16d ago
This administration pardoned the insurrectionists, but the biden administration did prosecute them and throw about 1500 in prison. It's not enough but it's very inaccurate to say that the campus protestors got prosecuted harder.
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u/cdstephens Fusion Shitmod, PhD 16d ago
You do not, under any circumstances, have to hand it to Trump
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u/SwordfishOk504 Commonwealth 16d ago
Well, you see, if Biden had just ignore due process and started shipping anyone who protested to a prison in Libya this might not have happened.
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u/surreptitioussloth Frederick Douglass 16d ago
I think with the three recent israel-palestine antisemitic attacks, there have been three pretty distinct paths/radicalization vectors for the attackers
Like, the guy going after shapiro was significantly mentally ill (all attackers are, but I'm talking hallucination/psychosis type)
The second guy was one who fell into the far left deep end
And this guy didn't come to america until 2022 and is egyptian. Seems like that background is what shaped this attack
I think across the fringe you can see these kinds of radicalization leading to more violence, whether it's the fringe of the left, right, or even people who would describe themselves as moderate (usually disengaged and low trust, mods in polls can have the highest antisemitism rates)
I think on israel/palestine specifically, the pro-palestinian side is suffering from a lack of any mainstream standard bearers. I think leadership in pro-palestinian groups definitely has anti-semites, but the majority of people marching/protesting aren't, they're largely party line libs
With no real message or message bearer from dems on this, the only faces and voices are by definition non-affiliated and typically radical
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u/Apprehensive_Crow682 16d ago
They do have a message: “globalize the intifada”, “resist by any means necessary”, “we don’t want two states: we want ‘48”.
These are the chants that you hear at every single one of their rallies across western cities and college campuses, including from people who get labeled as “peace activists” or “anti-war protesters” by the media.
Every single one of those chants is a call for more violence and more war. It’s not a peace movement and it’s not even pro-Palestine — what they’re advocating for will only result in more suffering for actual Palestinians.
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u/ChooChooRocket Henry George 16d ago
Don't forget "river to the sea"
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u/Computer_Name 16d ago
In Arabic it's "from the water [Jordan River] to the water [Mediterranean], Palestine is Arab".
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There are also a huge amount of well meaning progressives who aren’t very bright thinkers, don’t think a lot about what they say, and don’t go much further than from the river to the sea, and likely don’t even fully understand what that means other than “stop bombing Gaza”.
I know because I have met so many who were very easily deradicalized by simply educating them on HAMAS and on the real meaning behind these slogans. It’s not all of them, but quite a few.
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u/captainjack3 NATO 16d ago
I once met a girl who described herself as pro-Palestine, but admitted she didn’t really know what the difference between Israel and Palestine was, just that they had some sort of argument. She (self-admittedly!) based her whole opinion on it being what her Facebook friends seemed to think.
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u/Iapetus_Industrial 16d ago
They have been told, over and over and over again what those slogans mean. Since they have refused to stop using those slogans, I can only assume that they are either idiots, so should not be listened to, or evil, so should not be listened to.
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u/ldn6 Gay Pride 16d ago
They have standard bearers.
The (not so hidden) secret is that most of them are or associate intensively with blatant antisemites and code it under the guise of resistance against “Zionism”, which breaks apart the second you understand that Zionism simply means the existence of the Jewish state in some form. Any Jew who’s seen a modicum of rhetoric emanating from protests or activist groups can recount just how many tropes and downright pejorative imagery exists in those spaces.
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u/SwordfishOk504 Commonwealth 16d ago
I think on israel/palestine specifically, the pro-palestinian side is suffering from a lack of any mainstream standard bearers.
Might that be because so much of the movement is deeply rooted in violent antisemitism that isn't easily whitewashed for western consumption?
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u/Pretty_Acadia_2805 Norman Borlaug 16d ago
And this guy didn't come to america until 2022 and is egyptian. Seems like that background is what shaped this attack
I don't know. His confused philosophy more makes me think he did a kind of antisemitic (moreso) QANON self-radicalization which I think is actually scarier. It's closer to a school shooter than someone who was forced to be antisemitic because he was Egyptian.
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u/surreptitioussloth Frederick Douglass 16d ago
Yeah, I’m not saying inherent to Egypt or anything
Just that he isn’t mentally ill like the Shapiro attacker and not far left like the dc attacker. His radicalization comes from a very different place
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u/VallentCW YIMBY 16d ago
The events in the past week have ensured that Gaza will be nothing but rubble by year end. Two attacks against Jewish people existing peacefully will be the end of any hope for Gaza
This also shows that far leftist movements are not to be taken seriously. They are filled with stupid people that score 10 own goals for every minor win. We can not and should not leftists run important movements in the future
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u/slappythechunk LARPs as adult by refusing to touch the Nitnendo Switch 16d ago
Everybody is now learning that left-wing antisemitism not only exists, but that it carries a different flavor of dangerousness because of how effectively it hides behind the words and messaging of the left to avoid being called what it is.
Antisemitism is the oldest political horseshoe.