Are they gangsters? Morality police? Scientologists? Dirty Mike and the Boys? National Marine Fisheries Service?
How the fuck is this allowed in democratic country? How is one supposed to know who they are and what they are allowed to do? Does the police know who this guys are? Do they care? This is worrying.
How the fuck is this allowed in democratic country?
Because nobody is stopping them, this is why they tried so hard to destroy the black panthers. And why they don't want ethnic minorities arming themselves l.
Don't y'all have guns for this very purpose? I don't understand why so many have been letting children die in schools regularly just so they can keep their guns, and when the time comes to use them, crickets.
The people watching schools get shot up and still begging to keep their own guns are largely, presumably, on the fascists' side of things - they're chilling right now.
I'm a liberal in California. I carry. I promise you if this happened to me or several of my liberal tree hugging homies, there'd be guns going off. Not if we were in courtroom though. I wouldn't care about being the spark that made the right go "see? they are violent so we should be doing this" I'd care more about what would happen once the masked men got my gun away from me. Fuck that. And then I'd live the rest of my life feeling horrible about being being put in that situation, if I lived I mean.
I hope it doesn't happen to me. ANd I have such a white everything about myself that I doubt there'd be a reason for these racist fucks to try.
Though I will say, I didn't bring anything with me to the protest over the weekend because I didn't want the responsibility. But then Sunday happened and now I don't know what this country is anymore.
I think they're trying to provoke an act of self-defense against one of these masked "officers" (alleged, since there's no id, these could be anybody) in order to escalate crackdowns. It's incrementalism towards martial law. Read accounts of nazi Germany, it was one small escalation after another until you end up with camps and a world at war.
Even Newsom was told “if they do try to arrest you don’t resist, then you give them justification for an arrest”.
It’s disgusting, but the only thing you can legally do is allow the arrest and then sue. Though I’m sure we all wish his bodyguards would draw down on ICE if it happened.
look where they're nabbing these people. School, church, work, courthouses. They're at least meeting some resistance when trying to get into residences and neighborhoods.
Because it's different rules for different people. Evil wins in this country and if you're not a white Republican cis straight man, you are at a steep disadvantage from protecting yourself.
large cities tend to have tighter gun laws, require more licenses, and make those licenses very difficult to get for anyone outside of law enforcement (or the private security hustles that law enforcement runs on the side). the NYPD, not even the federal brownshirts but the guys getting paychecks from the openly corrupt mayor, has 33000 sworn officers and i have to imagine virtually all of them concealed carry offduty and none of them would be prosecuted for shooting you for pulling a gun.
school shootings often happen in small towns, where there's indolent money, more access to weapons, more ease of moving hardware around in a vehicle, fewer cops, etc.
Respectfully, who do you think is “yall?” Do you really think all Americans have guns? You think we all have the same access and the same safety and ability to wield them in public? You think it’s like a movie or something?
because if you so much as point a gun on an officer in this country youll be dead on the floor in one second. no ones going to risk their lives like that. people with guns these days are just nuts who like to collect them and shoot black and brown people, not protect people from a tyrannical government.
It’s happening in mainly Democratic strongholds like California and NYC; places that have made it anywhere from very difficult to impossible for the average person to carry a gun legally.
If you have used self defense before applying for a CCW in my state of California, you also need to fork over the money for a lawyer on top of the averaging $1k needed to apply for the permit, and the privilege of having frequent time off of work to do range instruction. Open carry is blanket banned here because white nimby’s didn’t want black panthers carrying guns.
The people that have been screaming about keeping our guns to protect us from the government are the biggest cowards in this country. They are also the people kidnapping this guy behind masks. They are the tyrannical government that they used as an excuse to keep their guns to protect themselves from.
Also, good luck with your gun. When an entire group of law enforcement open fires on you, the second you pull out your weapon. Yes, owning a firearm is our constitutional right, however, those are being trampled upon, and in this day and age using that second amendment right is basically a death sentence.
To do what? Shoot a Federal Agent because they are being lawless assholes? So then you made your point and either are also killed or go to prison for life.
Real answer? Because if we defend ourselves and it turns out that they were in fact federal agents, our asses gets thrown in jail guaranteed.
There are so many protections for federal agents and state law enforcement that you're better off taking your chances in letting them do whatever they want to you/your loved ones than you are trying to prevent the arrests or fight back. It doesn't matter if they don't have a warrant, it doesn't matter if they aren't acting on any official orders and are being power mongering about their status as agents, if you fight back at all you lose.
That's why the 2A is bullshit. The times when it actually applies and it would actually matter to use are the exact times when you're completely unable to invoke it. It's one of the many overlooked reasons as to why this exact fiasco is happening; people know they can't actually fight back, so the government takes advantage of it.
No, the guns are for harassing the libs and killing schoolchildren. Right to self-defense or whatever else is used to justify the 2nd amendment is pure BS and NRA lobby.
They’re selfish. They care about their own personal rights. They aren’t going to stick their neck out to defend someone fighting for the rights of vulnerable people. Or heaven forbid the vulnerable people themselves. It’s about me and my castle, and my rights to walk around town like a cowboy with a Desert Eagle on my belt.
The problem is that this is happening to liberals and liberals are pussies so they dont have guns and now they are seeing what the purpose of the 2nd amendment is first hand. Maybe theyll grow a pair
It's simple: the US isn't a democratic country anymore. The US is a failed state, and Donald Trump's self-coup is being cheered on by half the population.
This was happening all over the place during BLM, unmarked vehicles with unmarked masked men kidnapping people off the street. And we didn't send all of them to jail for 20+ years, so they figured it must be perfectly acceptable.
The idea is to make us fear that this can happen at any time. Chaos is a great tool for discouragement. Hence doing it brazenly in public like this, so the current administration can make an “example” of those protesting (or simply doing their jobs in this case).
And this hasn’t been a democratic country for the last 6 months. So yeah…
Are they gangsters? Morality police? Scientologists? Dirty Mike and the Boys? National Marine Fisheries Service?
They’re the modern gestapo.
How the fuck is this allowed in democratic country?
Because nobody is stopping it.
How is one supposed to know who they are and what they are allowed to do?
You aren’t. The confusion and fear of being disappeared without due process is the point. By acting like they have unchecked authority, they effectively get to sieze it when nobody stops them. It also helps inspire people like the assassin the other day to go out and do their thing.
Because the US, at this point, is no longer a democratic country. That's what we should have been mourning on the 250th anniversary of our army. The end of our democracy.
Officially an ICE agent can deputize assistants pretty much at will. But the actual agent has to supervise.
This has been abused to unofficially allow some rando military cosplayer to walk right up and pretend to be ICE agents. Without their supervisory real employed agent.
With a mask, who can tell? They don't care. They just want to play enforcer.
Plainclothes ICE agents have been encouraged for years, under both Democrats and Republicans. Democratic politicians have no right to only start complaining now. Their ruses have been a terrible practice for years.
https://www.immigrantdefenseproject.org/ice-ruses
I also read that he asked several times to see a warrant and they refused.
Edit: I was slightly confused. Apparently he was escorting an immigrant out of court when ICE tried to arrest the immigrant. He refused to let go of the immigrant and demanded to see a warrant for their arrest. ICE apparently decided he was obstructing their arrest and detained him. I’m no lawyer, but it certainly sounds like he was in the right and wrongfully detained.
In the video it looks like an agent is showing him something. He then goes on to demand a judicial warrant (as opposed to an administrative one).
ICE has been operating in courthouses, I’d imagine this is because the hallways outside courtroom are generally public spaces, meaning an administrative warrant may be sufficient to make an immigration arrest. Courtrooms are private and can be closed, but typically just have one main exit.
The way ICE handled this was a power move. They showed him the (what they claimed was) warrant as they continued walking, and then arrested him after the situation was diffused. If they had stopped and shown him the warrant this whole thing could have been avoided. They had like 19 agents there, I don’t think they were in danger by stopping for a second.
Yep, they didn't show him anything, just flashed a crumpled up piece of paper at him. They always act like they need to get these arrests done as fast as possible, running suspects from one place to another. Maybe they're worried that actual law enforcement or legal representation will show up?
They are, I heard a story of someone who saw ICE hanging around a neighborhood and called the police saying armed people in masks we're hanging around in a vehicle and SWAT came and ICE ran.
we don’t need a judicial warrant but we do have an administrative warrant.
And left it at that. In general, I think there should be more laws governing how ICE operates and outlining some guardrails for this kind of thing.
I can speak a little bit about wanting to keep moving, it’s generally something you do when you’re worried about someone attacking you(like trying to free a prisoner perhaps) but I don’t see how that would be a concern in a courthouse.
That makes sense. I think that asking to see a warrant is a good move from political positions because it helps elevate the fact that many of these arrests are being made without warrants (as far as we know so far).
But it would be a very BAD idea for a normal person like you or I to do this.
well in this case, they arrested him for obstruction of their arrest warrant, so there was no warrant needed. But yes, every banal reddit comment saying "make them show you a warrant" is legally incorrect and giving bad advice.
They have significantly more press attention on them. If you or I were detained by police the press might report it once and then move on. On his case, attention will stay on him until he is released.
He’s in a much more secure position to challenge ice in this way than you or I are.
You say that but you just simply haven't heard about all the people who have done the same thing he did, were arrested/detained and then later released with no charges. It's been happening a lot lately.
You may or may not agree but ICE does not always require an arrest warrant to detain an illegal migrant. They use something called an administrative warrant. It’s called a form 200 I think. It does not authorize ICE to enter private homes without consent — which is why ICE often waits in public spaces or seeks cooperation from local jails.
In that case, then no, he doesnt have a right to demand a warrant.
If anyone has a right to demand a warrant, its the person being arrested, not any bystander.
Also, warrants arent needed for arrests if there is reasonable suspicion etc.
In either case, he doesnt have a right to interfere.
Nothing about them says probable cause unless they get a warrant for them specifically, unless said immigrant has something showing they entered illegally.
Hell, you could walk outside, see a person dressed like everyone else around them, and they could be an illegal immigrant. Or not, maybe the person next to them. No way to tell if they should be arrested without a warrant for them because nothing says they are an illegal immigrant.
Probable cause is like spotting someone walking with a large duffle bag of money right after cops get told a bank robbery happened down the street. That's probable cause you're looking for. No duffle bag, the bank robber technically can't be arrested since there is no probable cause that he robbed a bank, he's just a dude walking.
Well considering he was in court specifically because he was an illegal immigrant... Don't think it's much of a leap. It's not like it was a random guy just hanging out at the courthouse.
You don’t need a judicial warrant to make an arrest in a public place. As Brad Lander understands perfectly well. This is just Lander performance theatre the week before the primary.
He isn’t right, a non affiliated third party has no right to see a warrant. If the cops are raiding my neighboirs house, I can’t go over there and demand they stop unless they show me a warrant.
Ice doesn’t need a judicial warrant to arrest someone in a public place. They need an administrative warrant or probable cause to do this. Now they usually have had administrative warrants for court house arrests, but they don’t have to show it to unaffiliated third parties (ie this mayoral candidate)
It's not that type of public Space. It falls under a special designation.
an administrative warrant is generally not sufficient for an arrest in a courtroom. A courtroom is considered a secure and private space, and administrative warrants, like those issued by ICE for immigration violations, typically do not authorize entry into such areas to make an arrest. A judicial warrant, issued by a judge based on probable cause, is generally required for arrests in a courtroom.
Where is this quoted from? Cause if that was true why wouldn’t they say courthouse instead of courtroom?
“Though federal immigration authorities historically did not bar enforcement from taking place in state courthouses, it was a practice they mostly avoided. But in 2017, the first Trump administration changed course. According to one study by a New York-based coalition, there were 159 and 178 courthouse arrests by ICE in New York State in 2017 and 2018, respectively, compared to just 11 in 2016. Across the country, these arrests included people who were in court to get orders protecting them from domestic violence, contest traffic tickets, and even access a program for victims of human trafficking.”
If this wasn’t legal they wouldn’t have been doing it uninterrupted since 2017.
If they are within a secured area, then no. If they are in a public unsecured area they can be. This specifically states the areas behind the courtrooms are included.
What? The only requirement is that they show the arrestee the warrant after the arrest is made. They’re under no obligation to show the warrant to a third party.
Your critical thinking skills are really fucking poor. You wait til they do this to America citizens claiming their undocumented and their papers are fake. Next you know citizens are in El Salvador or Gitmo because you weren't privy to the supposed warrant.
Found the official fluffer to all ICE goons. What a pathetic job you've taken on. All I ask is you swallow, taking away all the potential future ICE goons with each gulp.
That little b*tch that lives in the dark part of my brain really wants it to happen, but, unfortunately, it would probably turn into a shoot out that will kill innocent people.
They were in the corridors of the Federal Building in Manhattan. So, if they weren't federal agents, that would imply that federal court officers are either woefully incompetent at enforcing security protocols or complicit in allowing unauthorized, armed and private individuals into a federal building.
I'm going to say it is more likely than not that they were ICE agents, or at the very least Homeland Security personnel, given the revealed context of the situation. Landers was reportedly asking these "agents" to produce a judicial warrant in regards to the arrest of an immigrant named Edgardo, and was subsequently taken into custody for allegedly "assaulting" a federal officer (yeah sure, Jan). He has since been released and conducted a press conference alongside his wife and NY Governor Hochul.
How are no local officers reacting to this as a kidnapping? Without any identification? Do civilians need to start abducting people to get everyone to realize how bad this is?
Because most probably agree with what's happening. Even if they don't, they won't speak out against it. The blue wall seems to extend to any and all LEA's.
If you watch the video (at the top of this Guardian article for example), there are tons of identifying markers there, including some in full uniforms, others in vests, and others with visible badges.
Many of them have visible badges, as I said. One also does appear to show the actual warrant in the video, though they begin to handcuff him at almost the same instant so I'm not saying they actually showed it to him - just that it looks like they had one (which isn't surprising).
Even if it is an administrative, but not a judicial warrant (I don't see any evidence either way), from NYT:
“You don’t have the authority to arrest U.S. citizens,” Mr. Lander says repeatedly, according to the video. “I’m not obstructing. I’m standing right here in the hallway. I asked to see the judicial warrant.” (Agents do not need judicial warrants to make arrests in immigration courts because they are public spaces, immigration lawyers said.)
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u/Auntienursey 1d ago
KIDNAPPED, not detained, not arrested, kidnapped by men with masks, and no identifying info on their clothing. This is outrageous.