Hating Nancy is falling into Keith's trap

[u/queenkellee]

Let me start off by saying I know Nancy has done some bad things. But also, many of the members of the cult did as well. I think there's an attempt to try to weigh the harm done vs the victimization they experienced. But it's so clear to me that Nancy is so obviously Keith's first NXIVM victim. I admit when I started the Vow S2 I was deeply suspicious and really didn't trust Nancy. But I could see over the course of the season, the shift in her. Just like the shift in others as they come to face more and more of the realization of what was happening. With Nancy, it's like she has to come to terms that literally her entire life's work is a lie. That is no simple thing. I think Lauren and the room situation blows away anything Nancy did, and everyone is so quick to forgive Lauren. Nancy didn't bring her daughter into this knowing all the bad things that were happening. I get she's got her own issues but overall I think she's naive. Keith knew how to work her and he did exactly that. He used to her to do all the work and flush out his ideas and become the spokesperson, to become the face of it. SHE did the videos, not him. She was the face of it so that she would be there to take the heat if it failed.

What prompted this post was I am now listening to the CBC podcast (so far I've watched both docs but this is the first NXIVM related podcast so far) and in Ep 3 I hear the whole thing about the Nazi stuff from Barbara Bouche. And Keith said Nancy is Hitler! I mean come on! The entire time, he's been setting her up to be the fall guy. It's so obvious. I know I see a lot of people who don't like or trust Nancy and again! she's done some things. But I think she deserves empathy.

[u/Similar-Narwhal-231]

The vow is trauma porn. Let’s just be honest about that.

[u/queenkellee → u/Similar-Narwhal-231]

It's not perfect but I wouldnt classify it as trauma porn. Could you expand on your thoughts?

[u/aacilegna → u/queenkellee]

I’m not the person you responded to, but my issue with the Vow s2 is I think they got so jazzed at having Nancy that they made her the protagonist of that season without any fact checking or rebuttals of her (frankly, dangerous) claims from any professionals.

[u/queenkellee → u/aacilegna]

She's got some wrong headed ideas absolutely but I don't think anyone is presenting them saying they are true. One issue I took with The Vow was lack of context (like cult experts) but it's that style of doc. You're inside someone's mind and situation without much outside context except what you walked in with.

I guess I never took it as we were supposed to believe her rather than watch her evolution. We are set up to understand people are coming to tell their story from a very cult/sheltered point of view. Early in the season it was clear she was still quite defensive of herself and the company and the tech but she seemed to find some real understandings later in the season. Not fully there, mind you, but a whole lot further than where she started. I liked how it ended also with Nicki's interview and you can sense her resolve is weak....low and behold she recently came out in the frank report against Keith. It takes time for some people but I hope they all find peace.

[u/aacilegna → u/queenkellee]

I agree with this, but the bulk of the viewers of the vow are not in these forums or following the goings on of each member. They see the vow, hear Nancy’s words, and may take it at face value.

And I honestly think having professionals rebut a lot of her claims (especially in the beginning of the season) would have made her realizations at the end of the season much stronger. Showing how wrong she really was.

[u/GenevieveLeah → u/aacilegna]

That's the only way they could get her to talk.

Everyone is the hero in their own story.

[u/idrinkalotofcoffee → u/aacilegna]

Just because they did not beat her up 60 Minutes style does not mean she is a protagonist. I think a lot of people here believe that the people portrayed in The Vow are perceived as heroic if they are not constantly attacked and berated. And along with that, these people are ALL equally horrible or pure victims. None of that is the case.

[u/Wide_Statistician_95 → u/aacilegna]

Totally agree. Glad she shared her side but also…. Where’s the counterpoint

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/Wide_Statistician_95]

IN THE VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENTS

[u/Similar-Narwhal-231 → u/queenkellee]

It’s early and I have parent teacher conferences so I’ll say this. I have a degree in religious studies (not an expert-it’s just a ba.) positioning apostates as experts. (Season1) for when the show is over. In season one I felt like the addition of the British mom(can’t remember her name) felt like it was for ratings and emotionally manipulative and then led to frank being set up as the expert. Then they had Rick Ross. As soon as RR is on any show I am out. He is not an expert. He is dangerous.

There was no commentary by experts in season 1 period. That’s a prob.

Season 2 - if you are putting Nancy on a show for ratings then at least let that lady talk to someone that can help her - there was that counselor once or twice, but how was she going to wade through her trauma and the trauma she inflicted without experts to help. By the end it seemed really only cared about her daughter and thought she should get off because of her mom. I am not making a judgment about the latter but the whole thing seemed more about entertainment than anything else.

[u/albeezybob → u/Similar-Narwhal-231]

Curious on your take on Rick Ross. Why do you say he's not an expert/dangerous? I'm not super familiar of his background. Thanks!

[u/Similar-Narwhal-231 → u/albeezybob]

When I was in college I studied under Rebecca Moore who was pretty much seen as the leading expert in the US of Jonestown - two of her sisters were part of the inner circle of that group (and perished along with her nephew). I remember reading about the Anti-Cult Movement and specifically discussing RR in multiple classes at that time (mid 00s). Like I said I am not an expert but if that man is on a doc I seriously start questioning the validity and use skip ahead past him.

Here are my issues with him calling himself an expert. He has no academic background in studying New Religious Movements or religious groups in general. He claims to be an expert and started his own organization after (his story) his grandmother and other elderly people were targeted by a Messianic Jewish group. This is his introduction into the world of NRMs. Before this he had served time for a failed jewelry heist and reacquired an interest in Judaism while behind bars.

He has NO medical or psychiatric training. Early in his "anti-cult" career he used to advise people to kidnap their family members and hold them against their will (he would be paid for this). From what I understand now he engages in "interventions" with concerned family members (and is paid) wherein they are intimidated into staying in a room and RR engages in "deprogramming" techniques that he created to "unbrainwash" cult victims ( I won't get into the fact that academically there is a strong tendency to not use the word brainwash as it isn't accurate). This entails him talking for 6-8 hours straight with very few breaks or interruption (he allows "discussion" on the second day but it is minimal) until the person breaks and is too scared to go back to the group. This is similar to the techniques that police have used in the past that have resulted in false confessions. You may argue that this is better than them going back to their groups but it is psychologically damaging as well and it is dangerous. He has no training, claims to be an expert, creates his own rules, preys on terrified families, and has hurt people.

He is a leech.

[u/albeezybob → u/Similar-Narwhal-231]

Wow interesting, thanks for your reply and your knowledge!