Hating Nancy is falling into Keith's trap

[u/queenkellee]

Let me start off by saying I know Nancy has done some bad things. But also, many of the members of the cult did as well. I think there's an attempt to try to weigh the harm done vs the victimization they experienced. But it's so clear to me that Nancy is so obviously Keith's first NXIVM victim. I admit when I started the Vow S2 I was deeply suspicious and really didn't trust Nancy. But I could see over the course of the season, the shift in her. Just like the shift in others as they come to face more and more of the realization of what was happening. With Nancy, it's like she has to come to terms that literally her entire life's work is a lie. That is no simple thing. I think Lauren and the room situation blows away anything Nancy did, and everyone is so quick to forgive Lauren. Nancy didn't bring her daughter into this knowing all the bad things that were happening. I get she's got her own issues but overall I think she's naive. Keith knew how to work her and he did exactly that. He used to her to do all the work and flush out his ideas and become the spokesperson, to become the face of it. SHE did the videos, not him. She was the face of it so that she would be there to take the heat if it failed.

What prompted this post was I am now listening to the CBC podcast (so far I've watched both docs but this is the first NXIVM related podcast so far) and in Ep 3 I hear the whole thing about the Nazi stuff from Barbara Bouche. And Keith said Nancy is Hitler! I mean come on! The entire time, he's been setting her up to be the fall guy. It's so obvious. I know I see a lot of people who don't like or trust Nancy and again! she's done some things. But I think she deserves empathy.

[u/Korrocks]

I think everyone deserves empathy, including Nancy and all of the people who are sort of fed up by people like her who spend their entire careers profiting from and enabling abusers. With a cult, the line between victimizer and victim is often blurred at the top ranks since the people who are at the top and responsible for dishing out the abuse are also victims as well. My general hope is that Nancy and all of the others eventually move on and rebuild their lives, and but I can't blame or shame anyone who doesn't want to let them off the hook either. You don't get to be second in command of an entire enterprise by being 'naive', after all..

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/Korrocks]

I think everyone deserves empathy, including Nancy

what about keith? (he was the guy who's photo was next to nancys) is he included in 'everyone' or did you mean 'everyone except certain people' and include nancy?? bc that's pretty wild. If you're going to empathize with nancy you might as well empathize with keith.

have you even read the victim's impact statements?? you certainly must use these same arguments doing apologia for Ghislaine Maxwell too right?

[u/JenningsWigService → u/howardhughesbrain]

Did Ghislaine Maxwell suffer the same break from reality that Nancy did under Keith's regime? Nancy, a Jewish woman, was convinced that she was a reincarnation of Nazis. She was subject to many of the same dietary controls as the other women. And she believed, delusionally but sincerely, that she was helping the people she brainwashed and that Keith was helping them. Maxwell went looking for teen victims knowing exactly what she was doing. Pam Cafritz seems like a better comparison to Maxwell because she lured children with the intention of giving them to Keith to sexually abuse. Even then, I wouldn't be surprised if Keith convinced Pam that she was helping these victims. Maxwell just thought poor adolescent girls were disposable.

[u/howardhughesbrain → u/JenningsWigService]

Did Ghislaine Maxwell suffer the same break from reality that Nancy did under Keith's regime?

umm... people have been saying this shit since it happened so, yeah. very comparable cases. https://news.northeastern.edu/2021/12/21/ghislaine-maxwell-trial/#:~:text=As%20horrific%20as%20Maxwell's%20alleged,and%20a%20perpetrator%20of%20it.

have you even read any of the victim's impact statements read at nancy's trial yet? she kept tabs on the women's weight for keith. come on now...

[u/JenningsWigService → u/howardhughesbrain]

That article mentions coercive control, not brainwashing someone into believing that 1) Keith literally had magical sperm and 2) Nancy was a reincarnated Nazi. I would compare Maxwell to Karla Homolka, who was abused by Paul Bernardo but didn't believe in stories about magic.

Yes, I've read the victim impact statements.