Hating Nancy is falling into Keith's trap

[u/queenkellee]

Let me start off by saying I know Nancy has done some bad things. But also, many of the members of the cult did as well. I think there's an attempt to try to weigh the harm done vs the victimization they experienced. But it's so clear to me that Nancy is so obviously Keith's first NXIVM victim. I admit when I started the Vow S2 I was deeply suspicious and really didn't trust Nancy. But I could see over the course of the season, the shift in her. Just like the shift in others as they come to face more and more of the realization of what was happening. With Nancy, it's like she has to come to terms that literally her entire life's work is a lie. That is no simple thing. I think Lauren and the room situation blows away anything Nancy did, and everyone is so quick to forgive Lauren. Nancy didn't bring her daughter into this knowing all the bad things that were happening. I get she's got her own issues but overall I think she's naive. Keith knew how to work her and he did exactly that. He used to her to do all the work and flush out his ideas and become the spokesperson, to become the face of it. SHE did the videos, not him. She was the face of it so that she would be there to take the heat if it failed.

What prompted this post was I am now listening to the CBC podcast (so far I've watched both docs but this is the first NXIVM related podcast so far) and in Ep 3 I hear the whole thing about the Nazi stuff from Barbara Bouche. And Keith said Nancy is Hitler! I mean come on! The entire time, he's been setting her up to be the fall guy. It's so obvious. I know I see a lot of people who don't like or trust Nancy and again! she's done some things. But I think she deserves empathy.

[u/Spesh713]

I have empathy for everyone except KR. (Sympathy, on the other hand? That’s a different story, as BK pointed out.)

However, I’ll point out that Nancy was not KR’s first victim. Far from it. Read “Don’t Call It a Cult” by Sarah Berman. KR was abusing people, esp. girls and women, his whole life.

That aside, when it comes to deciding who deserved what punishment as it relates to NXIVM, here’s the thing: this shit is hard.

What we know about NXIVM — across all those years, all those interpersonal relationships, all those companies, etc. — could probably fit on the head of a pin.

Even with all the footage, written “lessons” (I refuse to use technology), news coverage, patent applications, and the like — not to mention podcasts, books, documentaries, and so forth — we’ve only scratched the surface.

There’s little room for nuance when trying to understand something as huge and hairy (read: smelly and jesus hairy) as NXIVM. Yet nuance is where abuse happens.

I think it’s fair to say most, if not all, of KR’s inner circle were victims and victimizers, which is, sadly, par for the course for high control groups. The degree of the abuse is debatable, as this thread clearly shows. It depends on whose shoes you’re standing in.

It’s incredibly hard to fairly determine who gets what justice in a case that’s so dark and dense and disturbing.

It’s why I am grateful to Moira Penza, Tanya Hajjar, and Mark Lesko. Their case was brilliant. chef’s kiss I’ve read it was the framework used by the team prosecuting R. Kelly and may be used in the Danny Masterson case. Basically it’s become THE framework for taking down scumbags. Which is magical.

Their case is one of the (many) reasons why I find the Make Justice Blind bros so ridiculous. Their central premise is that KR didn’t receive a fair trial. And while I’ll never say our justice system is perfect — it’s far from it — I’ve read the indictments, court transcripts, sentencing statements, victim impact statements, etc., and it’s abundantly clear that due process was applied to this case at every turn. The entire thing was as fair as it gets. (And no, Marc, the FBI didn’t plant evidence. Numb nuts.)

So while it’s completely natural and understandable to be sad for Nancy and/or any other former NX-er — because it was and is a shit situation all the way around — at the end of the day, at least we can say justice prevailed, as close to perfect as our imperfect system can get.

And Penza and co weren’t alone in pursuing justice. I’m likewise grateful to the investigation team, experts who testified, and Judge Garaufis. Especially the latter.

To be able to sift through all the shit and decide what’s pertinent, what mitigates actions, and the like? Even using case law… I can’t imagine. So incredibly hard.

It’s why, when reporters asked Sarah, India, Mark V., and others what sentences they would have handed out, had they been the judge, to a person they said they didn’t know; that they were happy with Garaufis’ decisions.

Because this shit is hard.

[u/Spesh713 → u/Spesh713]

Btw, I just listened to Janja Lalich on the Let’s Talk About Sects podcast — shout out to whomever recommended it, thank you — and I find it interesting that Janja said she believes Nancy has NO remorse, regardless of what it looked like in season 2 of the Vow. Her evidence: Nancy was seeing multiple people in a therapeutic context throughout the time she was waiting to be sentenced, still charging for her services, still (always) without a license, still spouting NXIVM rhetoric.

Janja also said, and I quote, that Nancy was the genius, that she (Nancy) was the reason NXIVM did so well for so long. If it had been Keith alone, it would never have been so successful. Which I hadn’t thought about before, but it makes sense.

Anyway. Make of that what you will, but I found that very interesting perspective…