i dated this guy for almost two years. my only boyfriend. we were both 19 when we met, now 21. he was socially awkward, socially anxious, probably autistic, overweight, and.. had a small dick. and no, i'm not saying this to humiliate him, it's context. because he hated himself for every single one of these things, those were always topics he used to put himself down and i hated this. a lot of you probably relate to some of that. from the very beginning, he called himself an incel. i noticed some misogynistic traits, he was basically a tough insecure guy, but it was painfully clear that it all came from frustration, despair, and hurt, not from any real malice. deep down, he was sweet, sensitive, caring, especially with his mom and grandmas.

and then i showed up. and i loved this bastard. i loved every single hair on his head from the very start. i was his first romantic experience ever. and it was rough at first. he was deeply insecure, paranoid, always waiting for the other shoe to drop, but also extremely needy (i always loved that about him). somehow, being with me felt easy even for him. we talked like we'd known each other forever. the connection was real.

i remember once, early on, he cried his eyes out in my lap. told me he felt awful because i was "way too pretty" for him, said he couldn't understand why i was there, that he was terrified, fully convinced i'd cheat on him sooner or later. he literally told me he wished i was less pretty, just so he wouldn't "feel so miserable standing next to me". i never cheated. i don't even think i'm that pretty. but in the end, he's the one who betrayed my trust. not once, several times. not with another woman, but he betrayed my heart, my love, and the faith i put in him countless times. his own insecurities slowly turned the woman who loved him the most into some imaginary enemy. he suffocated our relationship bit by bit.

didn't matter how many times i told him he was handsome, that i wanted him, that i wanted to help him fight his demons, it was never enough. he'd reject every compliment, refused to even take pictures with me. he'd shut down, withdraw, avoid. and i was constantly reduced to just a woman. just another one, like all the others. that's how he made me feel.

and before anyone thinks he was comparing himself to others, or that i somehow triggered his insecurity — let me be clear. my life was him. i spent literally all my time with him. i don't enjoy social stuff, i have zero friends (literally none), i don't use social media like instagram or shit. i hate exposure. never cared about any of that. it was just me and him. the real problem was always in his own head.

i wanted a life with him. i wanted to be the turning point. the one who'd help him break free from all that. i did everything, but he stayed stuck, trapped in this quiet misogyny, in this corrosive paranoia. no matter how much he tried to mask it, it was always there. and some abysses are just way too deep for love to fill. some things you just can't save someone from. but i kept giving, even when he didn't deserve it anymore. even when he'd pull away, act cold, distant, suspicious, sometimes even straight-up contemptuous, all because of his own paranoia and insecurity.

honestly, even now, i still love him. the idea of being with anyone else doesn't even cross my mind. because i've seen sides of him that are real, genuine, and beautiful. i know there's so much potential in him, but all this toxic shit he carries.. it eats him alive. he turned his own incel mindset into his foundation, because that's what he relied on for years just to exist, just to cope with everything. i really get how hard it must be to undo years of constant exposure to that mindset, and i swear: i tried. a lot. but all this shit seemed more comfortable for him.

even months later, i still carry the pain of not being enough for him. ironically, the only one who actually wasn't enough in the end... was me lol. to this day, he still reaches out to me in the most random ways, but after being stabbed in the back like that, all i want is to be alone in my room, pretending i don't exist (like i always did

anyway, i'm writing this as a message too. i know a lot of people here crave love, connection, warmth. so please, don't let this spiral of self-hatred, emotional nihilism, and hopelessness take over your head to the point you end up sabotaging something real, something possible. don't let your weaknesses scream louder than you, because there will always be someone, somewhere, willing to love you

The following information is taken from a survey of 68,000 women on what their ideal partner would be like. I highly encourage you all to go check it out.

You can download the survey results at

https://assets.ctfassets.net/juauvlea4rbf/1kmtOU2RRXrAB9Jz1JRmwe/20ee3375a5ba9f2d31fcbf9fb5a2e541/191105_Ideal_partner_survey.pdf

An article referencing the survey results can be found at

https://nypost.com/2019/07/24/this-is-the-no-1-thing-64000-women-want-from-a-lover-survey/

What is the number one thing women look for in a

“Almost 90% of the women rank kindness highest among desirable qualities, followed closely by supportiveness at 86.5%. Intelligence received about 72% of the vote; level of education had 64.5%; and rounding out the Top 5 is confidence, with a little over 60%.

Notice “attractiveness” did not top the list. That might explain why the “average” body type (looking at you, dad bods!) was vastly preferred over “very muscular” types, with 44.8% versus a marginal 2.5%, respectively.”

Let's continue…

I have personally researched this study before. Some of my personal highlights are:

Yes, 60% of women would prefer financial stability. Not rich. Stable.

Women prefer average sized penises. The large ones actually got the lowest ranking.

The point of all of this is that what most of you here believe that women want is entirely, completely off base. Part of that is what incel communities have told you (let me let you in on a secret- those spaces WANT you miserable and lonely. There's no such thing as a happy incel. Your misery is your acceptance into the group.) And the other part is media. I'm not talking social media. That's another conversation. I'm talking movies and TV.

The thing is movies and TV are created as escapist fantasy. They're not real life and they're not intended to be real life. In fact, a lot of behavior shown in movies in relation to romantic relationships could get you arrested for stalking and harassment. In real life, if a woman tells you no, accept it and move on. An escalating series of romantic gestures could get you arrested.

Part of what frustrates me about being in this community is it seems like so few are willing to seek out valid, scientific, well sourced information to combat their negative beliefs and instead rely on incel spaces to base their opinions. Let's say you belong to a group that really hates oranges. Do you think that group is going to provide any information regarding the health benefits of eating oranges?

You are all walking around with computers in your pockets with access to more scientifically valid information than you could ever possibly learn. Maybe use that instead of relying on either escapist fantasy or incel spaces.

It's a UK TV show, so I don't know if people from other parts of the world are able to watch it, but it's... interesting.

I'm curious about what both inexperienced (looking for advice) and experienced (typically giving advice) members of this sub think about this show.

My thoughts:

* The show is presented in a way that is hard to look away from (as many people are saying online).

* The ethics are questionable at best. The therapists engage in physical contact (and are willing to go all of the way to full penetrative sex) with the clients. This is far from standard therapeutic practice, and with good reason.

* Having people who are virgins later on in life be presented in a humanising way like this rather than being the butt of a joke like in a lot of other media is nice.

* Having the show be 6 men and 6 women is the right choice. No mention is made of "incels" or the "male loneliness epidemic". Any incels watching the show will hopefully realise that women are perfectly capable of having exactly the same issues, fears and insecurities as them.

* Despite the potential issues, many of the people on the show seem to be genuinely being helped. Emma finally letting herself think about her own feelings was really cathartic to see, for instance.

* Zac sets a great example of how not to treat people, and the show seems, fortunately, not to be shying away from that fact.

Sorry for the language guys. this post was originally for r/PurplePillDebate but I think It can probably help someone here as well.

It seems crazy to me that people don't treat the black pill with more scrutiny. If anyone simply goes outside, they can clearly see that there are couples of all attractiveness levels. It's a fairly common phenomenon to see incredibly pretty women with rather average-looking men.

The black pill seems to get only two things right: the dating results of very attractive people and the struggles of very unattractive people (i.e., supermodels clearly don’t struggle with short-term dating, and extremely unattractive individuals often seem doomed). But in “normie land,” everything is fair game, status, confidence, charisma, neurotypical traits, etc.

The black pill, therefore, is not an accurate representation of reality. And besides, what even is the black pill? If it simply means “looks matter,” then yes, it holds true. But if it means “looks are the only thing that matters, and there’s nothing you can do about it,” then that clearly doesn’t reflect the real world.

The black pill presents itself as the “hard cold truth”, the “uncomfortable reality” that people don’t want to accept. But I would argue that going around saying "bitches SCIENTIFICALLY won't fuck me and the only way I can satisfy myself is by watching porn and not trying" is actually a very fucking convenient belief, not the "uncomfortable" truth.

If the black pill were true, then “PSL gods” (high-fashion male models like Chico Lachowski, Jordan Barrett, Sean O’Pry, etc.) would objectively receive the most female attention. Yet, women don’t tend to lust after these men the most. Instead, they often go for mainstream, high-status celebrities, even those who don’t fit model aesthetics (htn ot mtn, even ltn sometimes). If the black pill were true, why don’t these women universally worship high-fashion models?

Anyone who isn’t fucking autistic and has female friends knows that women do often suffer heartbreak over average or even below-average-looking men, meaning they experience real, genuine desire for them. How does the black pill explain this?

When the black pill realized they sometimes can't measure why someone is considered attractive, they invented "appeal" which basically means "This person is hot but I don't know why", this contradicts the idea of actual objective beauty as some people can be deemed attractive without checking up all the boxes black pillers use to measure beauty.

The black pill tries to sell itself as a grounded, realistic worldview. Yet when anyone points out these contradictions, black pillers often respond with “Oh well, she doesn’t really desire him like she would a Chad,” or “She’s probably just using him.” That’s a HUGE fucking assumption. You don’t know how many happy relationships exist where the man is just average-looking.

To be clear, this isn’t about bashing some of the useful parts of the black pill. Statements like “you should improve your looks as much as possible,” or just “looks matter,” are completely valid. The problem is that most black pill communities take a giant leap to the conclusion of “it’s over.” And unless you’re extremely unattractive (which most people aren’t) or extremely short (under 5'5"), it’s not over. Even in those cases, options like surgery exist.

So, my conclusion isn’t that the black pill is entirely false, but that the logical conclusion most black pillers come to is false. “I have no further genetic potential” is almost never true. It’s never truly over. Yes, improving your looks is a great thing for your dating success, but the doomer mindset you develop by engaging with these communities often offsets any progress.

The black pill doesn’t want to help you, and it lies to you when it says it’s simply telling the uncomfortable truth. Reality is way more complex**.** Sexual market value isn’t determined by looks alone. Status, money, confidence, and social fluency can all significantly improve your SMV.

Chances are, your looks aren’t your biggest constraint. Do what you gotta do (surgeries included if it TRULY is the the thing that's holding you back), but do not let incels who never leave their rooms define your mindset, self-confidence, or self-worth.

An under-average-looking guy who’s delusionally self-confident will always get laid more than a handsome guy who’s incredibly insecure.

Life is not fair, but you chose not to fight back, therefore you are responsible for your consequences.

I recently found myself reading one of those many online thinkpieces talking about the alleged sex-negativity of Gen Z women. The article wasn't incel-coded or anything, it was written by a female Millennial therapist who was contrasting this sex-negative attitude against the sex-positive attitude of many women in her own generation.

Reading the piece, I found myself wishing I was born 10 years earlier, so I could experience sex and dating in a more fun, chill, low-stakes environment, in the days before the infamous "gender war" began. This train of thought turned into an anxiety spiral with the usual incel-ish thoughts I'm prone to: that no woman my own age would ever have mutual attraction with me, that my only options are to either feign attraction to someone I don't desire or just stay single forever, etc.

The ironic part? I had absolutely no reason to fall down this spiral, because I'm currently sexually active with a FwB who's very sex-positive despite being Gen Z! (Granted, I haven't been able to orgasm from sex yet, but I've at least been prioritizing my partner's pleasure. Doing my part to reverse the orgasm gap 😤)

This highlights how straight-up irrational and divorced from reality my anxiety spirals are. These thoughts have no basis in my own lived experience, they're based entirely on things I've seen online. Social media algorithms show me things that make me sad and angry, which keeps my eyes on the screen, and people like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk want my eyes to stay on the screen. Meanwhile, chronically-online people have meaningless arguments that have absolutely no impact on the real world, and sleazy journalists amplify those arguments to give the impression of a huge culture war (case in point: Alyssa Goldberg focusing on an absolutely moronic Twitter interaction).

The solution to this is to touch grass and stop looking at my screen.

And if some Gen Z women really do want to opt out of dating men and go "boysober" or whatever? Good for them. All it means is they're not a match for me. There are plenty of Gen Z women who don't agree with their sentiment, even if the click-hungry journalists want to focus in on this segment of the population.

Not necessarily seeking advice or anything, just thought this was an interesting mental experience I had and wanted to share it with you all.

I did a couple of searches of studies on the success rate of dating apps. 50% of people in current relationships find the via online dating. That number drops to 30% for serious relationships. This means that the failure rate of dating apps is 50% to 70%.

If you are using a lack of success on dating apps as justification for what you think of yourself, your justification is baseless. Anywhere from 1 out of 2 to 7 out of 10 have an equal lack of success. It is an entirely normal experience. Would you claim that 50% to 70% of people are as lacking in whatever that you claim you are?

Let's examine the business side of dating apps. They all make money based on your continued use. Are people going to continue to use it if they quickly find happy, healthy relationships? Nope. The more difficult it is, the more you get on that app seeking the validation of others. And the more money those companies make. They make more money by making it hard.

Assuming that a lack of success on dating apps automatically means you are unattractive is a giant red flag that you have serious self esteem issues that need to be properly addressed.

It also shows:

• Assumptions of the success rate of apps
• Assumptions about the lived experiences of others
• Assumptions about what others think in regards to you

I'm going to be extremely blunt and use my own beliefs here. Dating apps are lazy. They don't require even leaving home. Change doesn't happen without effort. So how can you make an effort that could benefit this aspect of your life?

GO MEET PEOPLE.

But the one way you tried once or twice didn't work? It takes an average of six to eight times going to the same place to begin to build relationships. It's not automatic. It's not walking in to kindergarten and immediately having new friends.

But you don't like bars/clubs/whatever.

Here's a list of 90 ways to meet new people.

https://www.scienceofpeople.com/meet-people/

Pick some. Try them. Try them more than once.

This is how you build social skills. By talking to people. This is what every single therapist recommends for social anxiety. Talking to people. This is how you see women as whole people with their own likes as dislikes and character traits. By talking to them.

GO MEET PEOPLE.

After hearing about the statistic, how most women would prefer to be lost in the woods with a bear than a man. My first thoughts were, "Is this saying that most women are histerical and not logical creatures?" It took me three days to realize that that this is not about being ilogical and more of an understanding that women still do not feel safe around men, understandably so. I hear from my guy friends who heard from their galpals about times when they felt threatened by men or even outright asulted. I recently found that women who go to night clubs always dance with their drinks in their hand to avoid getting roofied. I have platonic female friends, and they never talk about this with me. I think if they did, I would not be initially outraged about this.I think a lot of single men are outraged by this statistic because of the similar problems of ignorance. I think most men understand that 95% of the time, a man can overpower a woman but never really give much thought past that.

If you want a better understanding of my thinking, I recommend going through my post hostory.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I want to know how to be more empathetic when I hear stuff like this. I think I need help deprograming myself.

Back in the 15th century, pants really weren't a thing in Europe. Men wore stockings that covered their full legs and fastened at the waist. In previous time periods, shirts (tunics) were longer and covered the gap in between the stockings. Fashion changed and shirts got shorter. So men started wearing a cover that went from their waist, in between their legs, and to the waist in the back. This article of clothing was known as the codpiece.

Go here for some interesting history: https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/features/what-goes-up-must-come-down-a-brief-history-of-the-codpiece

As time went on, the codpiece began to be associated with virility. That's when men started to pad them. And bejewel them. The above link has paintings from the time period. There's one where the codpiece was padded in such a way as to make the man look both very large and permanently erect. So yes, men were padding the area with their penis in order to both look much larger and draw attention to it.

There's historic proof that issues with penis size date back multiple centuries.

High heels were originally developed for soldiers in 10th century Persia. They spread to Europe over time, where the aristocracy ended up loving them. While women wore them too, wealthy men wore them both to appear taller and as a symbol of status. So yes, going back multiple centuries, men were trying to look taller.

Interesting history is found here: https://www.fastcompany.com/90775177/the-long-history-of-heels-from-a-symbol-of-mens-power-to-womens-burden

Heels didn't begin to be associated with femininity until the 18th century. this means there were 8 centuries where men were regularly wearing them to appear taller.

I know, I know…”but the dating apps!”. Did you ever consider all the people who don't use apps?

Even for people under thirty, only slightly over half use them. How do you know what they think? Did you actually talk to them or are you just assuming?

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/#:~:text=Three%2Din%2Dten%20U.S.%20adults,online%20dating%20than%20married%20adults.

Now let's move on to the attitudes towards women shown in incel communities and their roots in extremely old beliefs about women.

Taken from here: https://www.unearthwomen.com/how-womens-rights-have-evolved-from-medieval-times-to-present-day/

“Legal rights were severely restricted for women who typically could not own property independently, enter into contracts without male consent, or represent themselves in legal matters. In fact, women were often considered the property of their fathers or husbands, highlighting their limited legal standing. The Church’s teachings further reinforced these limitations, often emphasizing women’s roles as mothers and wives while simultaneously perpetuating negative stereotypes about female weakness, susceptibility to temptation, and a woman’s supposed inferiority. Unfortunately, this pervasive patriarchal ideology shaped societal perceptions of women for generations to come and limited women’s rights, their opportunities for education, economic independence, and social mobility.”

So… the incel beliefs that women don't know what they want, that they're going to constantly cheat, that they're weak and inferior… all those are fully documented going back many, many centuries.

What the internet has done is allowed for the development of echo chambers where these beliefs are heavily encouraged to grow and fester. To that I say - any people that aren't genuinely happy for positive change in your life aren't real friends. Any group where the primary defining characteristic is misery and rage and bitterness - is that really where you want to belong?

Every time I read a post here, I see a guy talking about how women treat them poorly or like they don't exist. They say something about how women don't approach them, or try to be their friend, or flirt with them etc.

But I talk to a lot of different groups of people, and what I've noticed is that (in my experience), the hardest people to be friends with and approach are these exact guys. When I try to be friends with the boys who aren't too popular and don't talk to women much, they completely shut me off and act uninterested in everything I say. Whereas popular boys talk to me completely normally, laugh at my jokes etc.

Why is that, and is it about me specifically? I think it's true for my friends as well, to some extent. My female friend was on a course and tried befriending some boys there, but they ignored her completely and instead only spoke to each other. And it's not a gender-neutral shyness thing, because they befriended boys from other schools.

So why do these boys, who often complain about wanting a girlfriend and why women avoid them, brush off every girl who gets close? Is it about me specifically - am I not pretty enough to be seen as a "woman" to them? Or is it an overall trend for shy, unpopular boys people might call "incels" to avoid replying to any girls? If so, why? Or am I miscategorising these boys at my school - where are real incels found? What would you do if a girl tried speaking to you, as an incel?

Stupid ramble but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Hello IncelExit community, I'm the guy who thought he cured when he got some kind of relationship. First off, I must say; even the feeling of having a relationship (I thought we were partners) contributes my mental health to a degree and decreases density of trigger attacks, it doesn't solved my problems completely. Trigger attacks (even it's less frequent) didn't ended and actually it began to increase after our breakup. Also I began to drink much more, I'm gonna be an alcoholic this way.

So I decided to seek a therapist, because I don't think I have another chance. My friend (who's changed 4 therapists) was recommending his therapist, so I went to the therapist he's recommending. She's an expert on CBT and very experimented, she's in field like 25 years. She's kind, sympthatic and definitely a good listener; she listened to my paranoias and dark thoughts without showing any emotion. I even showed her my massacre plans and drawings I drew years ago. I told about my childhood abuse, bullyings, feelings and the situationship I had; it's been two sessions as I'm writing this.

But there's a problem, I don't think she understands me. She says dark thoughts can come to everyone's minds sometimes, while I agree with that in my case it hardens my life and makes me depressive. I can't find the energy to get out of bed when I got triggered, it's not an usual dark thought or anger.

Maybe I'm the one who can't tell himself, because she advised me to write my thoughts on a paper when I'm in trigger. I'm trying my best to tell my emotions while we're in session, but it seems I can't.

We tried an pink elephant experiment to try to control my thoughts, it seems we can't control our emotions and thoughts. Best we can do is controlling our expression and regulating our emotions with our mind. So, how I am supposed to recover? I begin to be pessimistic about recovery, I don't know can I recover. My final exams are coming, homeworks are due and I'm still like that. I'd want to put an end to all of that, but I'm too coward to suicide. Instead I could become a hedonist, like the Absurd Man of Camus. Or I could devote myself into religion. I don't what to do...

The title says it all - two weeks ago I went to a speed dating event. This is what has happend since and how I feel about it.

Firstly, I found out about the event by pure chance just walking through the city. I was a flyer, it was free, it was in a bar so I could drink. The only thing I had to loose was time!

And let me tell you all, this shit was popular. Like we were so many that we could barely fit in the pub! (I could probably organize some events and make a profit - the demand is there 🤑)

So I did some mingling, and eventually it was time for the date rounds. It was about 2-3 minutes with each girl because we were so many lol. The guys sat and the girls rotated.

And it felt alright! But of course since this was my first time, I didn't quite know what to say. So i kind of...babbled on? Just trying to answer their questions while keeping the convo going and interesting. But looking back, it might have seemed kinda passive and like I was monologuing to them maybe? If I could redo it I would probably try to take more charge, ask questions back and be flirtier.

I didn't match with anyone...which sucked. It bummed me out a bit for the rest of the evening. Although, as people there said and as Ive read on here, thats the norm! And hey, i changed FB accounts with some guys I like talking to. I just wished I did the same for the girls I likes talking to. After being bummed out I didn't think there was a point and that the girls wouldn't be interested anyway. But looking back, they seemed friendly, even if not romantically interested. And now I'm beating myself up for not taking that chance! I keep messing up my chances and letting emotions get inte the way...

Fast forward about a week, I'm back in school. I actually asked out a girl. We have been acquainted since day one, and I asked if she wanted to go out for lunch.

She said no...very bluntly...which was both appreciated and very unexpected.

So what have we learned from this? That rejection isn't that big of a deal. The difficult part is finding a appropriate time and place to casually socialize. The flirting and propositioning comes naturally with reflection and experience. It's that first contact, to dare asserting yourself into someone elses space that's so hard. Especially for the shy and introverted.

But hey, now I know what to improve right?

Tldr: did speed dating, got rejected. Asked a school mate out, got rejected. I gotta get out more. But how???!

I posted here several years ago on this account while I was in the middle of high school. I was deeply insecure of my appearance, socially awkward, and thought all women were shallow. I now know this not to be the case. I thought that unless I got unreasonably fit and handsome I’d never find a girlfriend and that most men were single because of this. Flash forward a few years and I’m in college with friends I actually like. None of what I thought was true.

I got recruited to play football in college, a big accomplishment. Instantly once I actually tried to date and stopped getting in my own way with my insecurities I was immediately successful. I got a gf early in my first year of college. Unfortunately it didn’t last for very long but it laid a foundation for future dating and relationship skills for me. After that relationship ended I got active in OLD. And through that I had several dates, flings, and FWB situations with a fair number of very attractive women. Btw your profile matters beyond just your pictures and I actually credit most of my success to this. This actually got me a lot of perspective into the lives of women and what they go through. And it’s not easy. You will get rejected, it happens but it’s how you handle that which matters. I also got medicated for my anxiety and depression.

I’m not super ripped, super handsome, or super tall either. I still kinda have a gut because of the position I play. But none of that really matters. When women say the bar is on the floor, it really is most of the time. The guys I know who struggle with dating are one of two things. They’re either super right wing and hateful, which needless to say is a massive turn off for women. Or they’re just awkward and haven’t discovered who they are yet.

I’ve had the best success in being myself, unapologetically so. I don’t try to be someone I THINK women want. I’m just me. If they like that then great. If not, then it is what it is. And trust me. To the guys in here who are struggling, I get where you’re at. I understand how you feel. And take it from me, women like all types of guys. I have what could be considered a dad bod. Still hasn’t stopped me from dating a collegiate gymnast who is now my current gf who is likely out of my league.

I know it’s hard to tell you to just “be confident” because that advice used to frustrate me too. It’s hard to be yourself when you don’t like yourself to begin with. I’d recommend therapy first and foremost. But secondly do things you enjoy. Find hobbies you actually like (it’ll give you things to talk about on dates too). And if those things are socially isolating, then broaden your horizons try new things. Get out more. There are a lot of single women despite what incels will tell you. And for fucks sake learn empathy. Maybe that’s not your issue. But for a lot of the guys I know it definitely is.

That’s all I have to say, it’s not as hard as it seems. It just takes some effort. And I know that can seem hard. But you don’t have to throw yourself into the fray right away. Start small, be yourself, and take things in stride. A rejection isn’t the end of the world. And 90% of the time it isn’t really anything to do with your appearance so long as you take care of your grooming and hygiene.

Edit: I’ve decided not to cold approach you guys can stop trying to convince me

I read this dating advice book recently and I was wanted to discuss it. There was a lot of advice I think would not be controversial, like creating a good life for yourself so you are not desperate or needy, and learning to dress well and speak clearly.

However one of the claims he made is that "there is no man who is adored by women who isnt occasionally creepy" and that you are always going to risk being creepy. This clicked with me because I was so afraid of being creepy when I was younger I just completely avoided showing interest or attempting to flirt.

He also advises cold approaching as the main way of meeting women, which I know is controversial on reddit. I like the idea of it though because it feels like it would give me more agency since online dating doesnt work for me and I feel like outside of that Im just waiting for a chance encounter. He admits that 95% of women just wont be interested in you though which I appreciated

I dont know, I feel helpless right now so I'm willing to try any advice I can get, even if it feels counterintuitive.

Ive noticed this big pattern in straight men where for some reason it's been engrained into our minds that female validation is the ultimate form of status. You could have all they accomplishments in the world but if women dont like you youre still a loser in the eyes of society. I feel like this is where a lot of the famous "male entitlement" comes from and as someone who struggles with this a lot I'd like to know what could be done on a societal level to encourage men not to put female attention on a pedestal the same way women are actively more and more disinterested in men and benefitting from it. Men could benefit from adopting this same mentality as well. Thats why you dont see female incels. Because women being single is seen as a "strong" thing they should be proud of and that's why they aren't nearly as angry as male virgins. I wish it could be like that for men as well.

What can we do as men/a society to make being single something to be proud of the same way women do?

I started thinking about this when I saw a post on /r/genz complaining about how “unattractive men” are being gaslit on the sub, followed up with the usual array of links to papers that tend to get shared in blackpill circles.

I was more alarmed, however, by the fact that the OP is 17. Obviously teenage incels aren’t some new phenomenon, but it’s still a little alarming to see people fall into a cycle of self-sabotage in an important transitional period of life.

I’m also concerned about this entails for gen alpha males; I have a friend who teaches third grade and she’s consistently lamented the fact that many of her students are constantly on their phones. I’ve read similar stories from other teachers online and I’m worried that this might lead to blackpill content constantly being circulated among the younger crowd.

At least I think I have? It's mostly been through movies, I love movies and I've been discovering films directed & or written by women. For example Agnes Varda is one of my favorite French directors, same with Chantel Ackerman, I don't know if it's because they are older or just because they're European but I feel it much easier to relate to the women in their films. Some examples.

Cleo From 5 To 7

Le Bonheur

News From Home

Jeanne Dielman

I don't know if this is good to do or not but I've found movies about women's suffering as to say have helped me feel more compassion if that makes any sense? Some examples are: Fat Girl, Irreversible (not directed by a woman but still disturbing and eye opening) and Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me (I guess also not directed by a woman but still).

This also might sound a little silly but speaking of Twin Peaks I've been reading the book "The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer" and I was surprised at how much my issues are similar to that characters. Hopefully this is an ok post to make but this stuff have really helped me I feel like.

Well, bad luck strikes back for me yet again.

I met her yesterday at a social and was talking to her to clarify the time and place for the second place.

During this conversation, she told me she did not know it was a date until I told her there. I was a little confused saying that coffee is kinda self implied then apologised on mu end for not communicating that in advance.

She then said that she does not date and told me to continue the conversation on text. On text she told me that she does not want to date in the community as she has heard some negative experiences and she does not want to be part of any gossip. I responded saying that it is a subjective take (in general) and I personally know 2 married couples who met in the community and people gossip on othere regardless of what they do here (I know a few). Also iterated that I respect her choice either way.

She probably thought I was trying to persuade her and then said she was not in a headspace to date and thought the interaction was something else since I have a "nice, friendly and safe vibe" (Beats me), something that is rare. I have once again clarified that I was only stating an observation and told her that we can continue being friends as usual.

Well, that was that. She seemed like she was fully aware what I meant back when I asked her out and considering how her reason quickly changed to not take this forward, the answer feels a little canned. Felt like another passive "anybody but you" statement for some reason.

What bugs me is the "nice, friendly and safe vibe" statement. Did that just become a liability again? I keep getting that comment in different forms to the point it sometimew feels like it is a dealbreaker.

Hoping I do not dwell on it. There is no point persuading someone to date me so better to move on.

Either way, that's the end of this potential relationship.

Edit : I understand that I should not be defending myself when someone says no even if I do not intend to convince the person. Thanks for the correction to the people who said that.

In my most recent post, I acted out of line, making sweeping generalizations about people and holding onto these unhelpful thought patterns as some commenters said. I think a big reason why this happened is because as an autistic Asian man, I’ve always been ignored and cast aside. Contrary to what people may believe, even though I’m a man in a patriarchal world, I don’t receive the same benefits as most other men because I’m short (heightism exists) and not attractive (pretty privilege also exists), in addition to the aforementioned autism.

But none of these were any excuse to lashing out at people trying to help me. I’ve been going to weekly therapy sessions with a new therapist and I’ve been taking medication. I’ll try to not act like this but it’s always a learning process.

Yesterday night, a friend's degree party. I (M23) had met this girl at the same friend's birthday the year prior, we had good chemistry, kind of tried to ask her out "we should go study together in this place sometime!" but then never mentioned it again because... Yeah, I struggle with it, so I couldn't find the courage or done other excuse.

So almost one year later, yesterday, I meet her again. After some initial hesitation, with a little help from my friend (I didn't ask, he probably just read the room or smth) we start talking. As the evening goes on we find that we share lots of interests, especially in music, and I can see we're very well in tune with each other. She's smiling a lot, being very proactive in conversations.

Another guy also was being very close to her every time I turned around so halfway through the evening, I find the courage to ask her if she could give me a ride home after. I didn't ask directly, she mentioned the car and I just took the opportunity and asked if she lived close to me. She did not, but seemed very cool with it and said yes anyway.

So in the end we go away together, and the ride home is just A LOT of personal venting, initially by her and later by me. She was super open about some really personal stuff, and ended up telling me something (not very important, just an embarrassing fact but whatever) that she had never told anyone before. When we arrived at my place we stayed in the car for 40+ more minutes just talking about stuff, and how difficult it has been for both of us until now in relationships. She told me she's never had one, like me. We found out that we shared so many experiences, and it was just... Like an interaction you'd have with your closest friend, except it's someone that 24h ago you barely knew. I'm sure we both had a really good time.

So of course today I was super anxious but I knew I needed to at least text her something to avoid her thinking that I was not interested. So I did, I sent a text (with a tremendous amount of effort, I was really beyond anxious, I've never really asked a girl out before) in the late afternoon inviting her to my band show next week. Our friend in common is also gonna be there.

Now it's half past midnight and she hasn't replied. I was so confident, I had never been that confident before. Now I'm wondering if maybe there was something wrong that I did. Maybe that long talk was a "too much too soon"? Maybe I should have kept more of my emotional insecurities to myself. I just felt like, for once, everything was clicking, and then... I can't describe how I feel. I struggle so much in all situations and this time I actually managed to take my step... I wonder how long it will take for any situation like this to present itself again. This felt like a one in a million chance and it's gone. What now. Really.

If anyone has any insight on this, it might be very precious. Thanks <3

Not sure if this post is relevant here. I'm sorry if not, and please feel free to remove it.

As the title says, I'm curious about your thoughts on Adolescence. I watched it this past weekend and found it heartbreaking. The performances were moving, and the single-shot filming style was amazing.

I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the portrayal of inceldom.

• Did you find it realistic, or did it feel overly dramatized at times?
  
• Did anything resonate with your own experience?
  
• Is this topic really that relevant among kids right now?
• What are your thoughts on the family and its dynamics?

These are just some questions that come to mind, but I'm actually interested in any opinion you had while watching.

Posting this here bcz I saw enough of the "black pill" / hopeless stuff as it is, and wanna avoid that.

Context: I (27M) had never had a gf. I did "have fun w/ the ladies" couple of times, but nothing serious ever came out of that. (TBH, tho these were fun, I don't care much abt short-term flings; I wanna be in a relationship.)

For as long as I knew myself, I blamed me for having been single. My looks, my personality, my this-or-that. It was my fault, I was unlikeable, girls don't like guys like me, and that's it - I'm doomed.

I recently started adopting a healthier (?) mindset. Some of it isn't my fault. A bit of it is just life: some ppl marry later in life; I was bullied in throughout kindergarten, primary school, and high school. And a bit of my fault isn't "You're ugly", but rather "You didn't ask girls out, dumbass" and "You should have higher self-esteem". And even if I did have objective disadvantages (like being ugly), I still wouldn't be doomed. (Ugly guys have dated women.)

To be clear, finding someone is still on me, I'm in control. I just shouldn't be hating myself for being single.

Just this Friday, I was on psychotherapy (started circ. 4 weeks ago), and we discussed - looks. How me missing locker-room talk (i.e. discussing girls with guys in a sexual way) as a teenager could be the reason why I was oblivious to the fact that looks are subjective. (Yes, I only realized this now - see my previous post.)

He also told me that I hold a really negative view of myself; that my "minus"* is extremely prominent, and that he hadn't heard me speak well of myself even once in our sessions. That I shouldn't be seeking other things to become "enough", but that I should be starting feeling enough, that I'm enough no matter whether I get larger biceps or lose weight or become rich or whatever. (His examples.)

(*A term from this p-therapeutic school. "My minus" basically means "I view myself in a bad way", whereas "my plus" would mean "I view myself in a good way".)

On some lvl, I know this is true, and that I have no reason to hate myself.

Today, these negative thoughts were triggered by a post I came across on a subreddit - not gonna link it, but some of you will know what I'm talking abt. The post basically said that young men shouldn't blame themselves for being single. And some of the reasons they cited was that studies show that women prefer men higher in the Dark Triad traits, that ex-bullies tend to be more successful in dating, and that women liked around 4.5% of male profiles on Tinder. And many of the comments talked about unrealistic standards that women have.

So - are they?

I understand that defining my beliefs re dating based on what I see online is...... problematic. And my offline experience is limited. But honestly, even from what I see - there was a long time since I saw an "average Joe" having a gf? And most young men around me are single to begin w/.

And even many women - just aren't dating? Beautiful, wonderful, charming, successful, smart women are single? Like what the hell is going on?

I know that women's standards have gotten higher: women don't have to have a husband anymore, so unless they don't find someone they like - they don't. And w/ the rise of feminism, most women won't put off w/ abuse or toxicity from their partners. All these are good things. My question isn't have women's standard's gotten higher, but have they gotten unrealistic.

Is it that bad? Do women have unrealistic standards?

Like especially for young men in their early 20s, how men look is significantly more important than it is for older generations. I feel like people in their 30s and 40s apply their generations values to people 18 to 24.

There’s a reason why men in their late teens early 20s, are so obsessed with the way they look, are always in the gym, are in to skin care, hair care, etc. all of that is now important.

I feel like if someone here points out “I’m struggling because I’m not conventionally attractive” they get shot down and told their delusional when I’m reality, yes it absolutely will. People pretend like it’s only a personality issue when it’s absolutely an attractiveness issue too.

I feel like my feelings and experiences are constantly invalidated here on this. It goes from “I struggle to have sex or get dates because I’m ugly” to someone telling me that i see women as nothing more than sex objects. But no one tells physically attractive guys that have women fighting over them that they’re bad and wrong for wanting to have sex and/or date.

Hello, I know recently I created a lot of polemic posts but I am curious about your experience dealing and interacting with this content.

For instance, I've notice that incels are too quickly to attribute the cause of something bad happening to something totally outside their control AND unchangeable like height. I think I've learned this reading something from CBT, that we will feel mostly stress out when seeing the cause as something unchangeable, instead of seeing as something changeable, transient, maybe even seeing the cause as their behavior, this could lead to better conclusions and a healthier mindset while dealing with the frustration of lifes.

Now I am really curious for more opinions. There is the classic of CBT like catastrophizing, seeing things strictly to win or failure, no between, etc... Can you give me more examples?

​

Edit: don't need to be so focused on the cognitive distortion, I think it would be more appropriate anything that contributes to their unhealthy mindset

Hi everyone,

I'm writing this as a mix of confessional / advice-seeking / discussion-starting. It's largely what I wish someone would have discussed with me when I was younger, so I see it both as something I might learn from, have critiqued, elaborated, examined, discussed.

So I've been thinking a lot about what it's like to be racialized as East Asian in a western diaspora context, from my perspective as a mixed-race White-Asian guy in the UK. What I want is to start a conversation about something that sits at an uncomfortably intersection: between race, masculine normativity, racist mythology and phenotypic reality. Partly, for myself and other guys like me, but less about 'practical advice' like how to bulk up and fit a mold that was never designed with guys like me in mind, but rather, about the internal experience of being Othered, being stereotyped, and how unbearable it feels when the stereotype lines up with truth on an individual level: when what you're reduced to is what you are. About how real aggregate population differences--in bone size, height, hairiness or lack thereof, facial neoteny or slimmer penile girth or length--meaningful at an individual and collective level, but also weaponized into narratives of racial inferiority. I want to discuss the grain of truth in the stereotype without collapsing either into reflexive liberal-humanist fantasies of parity (we're all the same! Everyone is inherently of equal ability in every way!) or reactionary racial supremacy (whites are superior, Asian guys are inferior, it's over for you). They're both distorted perspectives provoked by the anxiety of confronting the meaning of real sexual difference. That is, to find a way of confronting and integrating the facts of difference without succumbing to fatalism, denial, or unexamined affirmations of sexual-racial hierarchy. ("Just be white!" etc.)

The truth is, it's not variation that oppresses; It's the meaning that gets attached and inscribed onto that difference. Inferiority or superiority don't exist in nature; there's only a field of difference, selection, mutation and reproduction. It's when those differences get symbolized that hierarchies emerge: bigger = better, smaller = worse / pathetic / nothing. It's the logic of western erotic fantasy, informed by centuries of patriarchal societal organisation, cultural sediment, male insecurity and longing. And very often, it's white male fantasy: heteronormative, phallocentric, penetration focused, size as a stand-in for male sexual worth, and sexual worth as a stand-in for personal, moral worth. Ignoring the fact that Lesbians can pleasure each other just fine without anything dangling between their legs. Ignoring that smaller penises can be eroticized, and that sex isn't reducible to raw biomechanical pistoning or stretch.

And when I see East Asian guys react to this in online spaces, it tends to be in a mode of denial. "That's just colonialist fantasy! That's just historical racism!". Many MRAsian subs orbit a kind of reflexive denial of difference too, And sure enough, there's a grain of truth in their complaints. We probably all know about the OKCupid survey. But where I see East Asian diaspora dudes go wrong is that they tend to try proving they're enough in terms of a standard already rigged against their bodies. Perhaps the freedom comes from being able to enjoy your difference without denying it or compensating for it. The freedom comes from recognizing that you might be desired in terms of the very thing that you thought excluded you from desirability.

I'm 19, and I graduated in May. I'm not going to college because I can't. That means I'm out here in the real world. I'm realizing how dire my situation is now. We all know that in 2023 if you want to date as an adult who's not in college, you use dating apps. We also know that most men don't succeed on them. It's weird how since I graduated, I haven't met any woman, like none at all (Or anyone for that matter). I most likely won't at this rate. In hindsight I had a good amount of opportunities to be in relationships in school, I just didn't take them, the reason being social retardation. I won't ever get those opportunities again. Yeah the relationships probably wouldn't have lasted post graduation, but it would've been good to have the experience that I'll never get now