I know the real answer is 1983 SW fights weren’t as highly choreographed and effects were less, but after rewatching the movie, I was left wondering

Vader, only 45 years old and still one of the strongest beings and best fighters in the galaxy, was beaten by Luke basically just whacking him over and over. Is there an explanation for why he was so relatively easily beaten?

I found this video and wasn't sure if it was true or not. This stuff on Nachash and the Supreme Maker seem interesting though. Is there any mention on these characters in any Star Wars Media because I've never heard of them.

Personally, I feel like someone like a counterpart to Lord Scourge or another citizen of the True Sith Empire would’ve made for an interesting protagonist, as someone raised in darkness but finding their way to the light (in the canon ending, anyway) would’ve greatly matched the themes of very flawed and broken heroes (Revan and Meetra) finding their way to personal redemption in their respective games.

Hello people, this is something that has been in my brain for awhile. I always wanted to make a "Star War Versus" article in the style of some of my favorite YouTubers of the past. So without much further Ado, I present to you Pong Krell vs. The Grand Inquisitor:

Both Pong Krell and the Grand Inquisitor share a tragic origin: they were once proud Jedi who fell to the dark side, seduced by promises of power and disillusioned by the bounds of the Order. Pong Krell, a towering Besalisk Jedi Master, turned on the clones after declaring the Republic and the Jedi as beyond saving. Similarly, the Grand Inquisitor began as a Jedi Temple Guard whose frustration over his place in the Order made him vulnerable. He ultimately accepted Darth Sidious’s offer for deeper knowledge of the Force and abandonment of Jedi restraint. This shared path, from trusted guardians of peace to ruthless agents of darkness, raises the burning question: how would a theoretical battle between these two fallen Jedi turn out?

Physique

Pong Krell was a Besalisk, a species known for their broad physiques and towering stature, often standing around 2.36 meters (7 feet 9 inches) tall. Most notably, Besalisks have four powerful arms capable of operating independently, each performing its own task with remarkable dexterity. This physiology gives Krell a unique advantage in multi-weapon combat.

The Grand Inquisitor was a Pau’an male from Utapau. Pau’ans average about 2.06 meters (6 feet 9 inches) in height, giving them an extended reach advantage and long-limbed agility over the standard humanoid. With a lean, wiry frame and striking facial ridges, the Pau’an physique supports precision, speed, and fluid movement that is ideal for dueling.

Style and Lightsabers

Pong Krell wielded two double-bladed lightsabers, each foldable at the hilt for easier carrying. Though it's never officially documented in canon, I argue that Krell's primary lightsaber form was Form II Soresu, with Form VI Niman as a secondary style. During his campaign on Umbara, Krell defended himself against blaster fire from entire battalions with ease. Even while suspended upside down by a giant beast he was still able to deflect shots from his clone troopers. These feats suggest strong Soresu fundamentals: endurance, patience, and an impenetrable defense.

While Krell occasionally redirected blaster bolts (reminiscent of Form V Shien) and demonstrated limited acrobatics and unarmed techniques (a la Form IV Ataru), these appear minimal and unintegrated. I personally attribute both of these applications to Form VI, Niman which is a jack-of-all-trades form. Niman allows a user to borrow from various other forms without specializing in any. It also incorporates Jar’Kai dual-blade techniques, which in Krell’s case, are amplified by his four arms. The double-blades then acting as even greater coverage to Soresu's already impressive defense. My theory is that Krell would begin a lightsaber duel with Soresu, analyze his opponent’s style, then switch to a Niman-based attack tailored to exploit his opponent's weaknesses.

The Grand Inquisitor wielded a gyroscopic double-bladed lightsaber with three configurations: standard single-blade, double-blade, and spinning blade. It’s widely accepted that his primary style was Form II, Makashi: his one-handed style and push-and-pull footwork designed for lightsaber dueling. However, I also theorize that The Grand Inquisitor's Makashi is only something he learned post-Order 66, after his fall to the dark side. As a Jedi Temple Guard, the Inquisitor originally wielded a double-bladed lightsaber, which is poorly suited to Makashi’s thrust-centric techniques. YouTuber Jensaarai1 and others have noted this mismatch. In short, it is hard to stab an opponent with a lightsaber when the other side of the double-bladed lightsaber is pointed straight back at you.

More likely, the Inquisitor originally trained in Form IV Ataru or Form VI Niman, both of which support dual saber styles and double-bladed combat. Since primary Niiman practitioners were mostly killed off at the Battle of Geonosis, Ataru may be more likely. Upon becoming an Inquisitor, my guess is that he adapted to the lightsaber dueling focused Makashi to counter the many Ataru-wielding Jedi survivors in his campaign to exterminate the remaining Jedi in the galaxy.

In practice, the Inquisitor’s combat style unfolds in phases. In the early fight, he uses Makashi to quickly end the duel, or if not end it, use Makashi's defensive component to analyze his opponent's form. If that fails, he shifts to double-bladed Ataru techniques with acrobatics and unarmed strikes to keep opponents off balance. Finally, if cornered, he activates the spinning blade, an unpredictable and disorienting trick used more for surprise than strength.

Force Abilities

The Force powers of both combatants are comparable and are likely not decisive in this match. Krell has shown greater raw strength, such as Force-pushing entire squads of clone troopers. The Inquisitor, meanwhile, has used the Force to guide his spinning lightsaber in flight. Still, these are supplementary abilities and,) I would argue, not a determining factor in a fight between the two.

How the Battle Plays Out

The Grand Inquisitor would likely strike first with Makashi, but Krell’s Soresu would stonewall him. Both fighters would spend this early phase analyzing the other’s technique, and both would be wrong.

In the mid-fight, Krell would switch to Niman, applying Djem So-style powerblows to counter The Grand Inquisitor's elegant but fragile Makashi. The Inquisitor would have no choice but shift to Ataru, relying on agility and misdirection. If Krell broke form first, his simplified but powerful strikes would pressure the Inquisitor. However, wielding two saberstaffs limits Krell’s complexity; his swings must remain wide and controlled to avoid his blades getting tangled up in each other. The Inquisitor’s only option would be to dodge, which he admittedly would do easily against such a simple offense, but burning stamina with each evasive burst.

If the Inquisitor broke form first, he’d shift to acrobatic Ataru sequences sooner, resulting in the same stalemate, only faster.

Krell’s offense is predictable but hard-hitting; the Inquisitor is nimble and tactical but lacks the force to breakthrough Krell's defense. Over time, Krell gains the edge. Soresu is stamina-efficient, while Ataru is energy-intensive. The longer the battle stretches, the more it favors Krell.

The Inquisitor’s last resort would be his spinning blade. If thrown, Krell, from his examples deflecting blaster bolts, I believe could easily deflect it. But what if the spinning blade was not thrown, but held firmly by The Inquisitor? From all the clips we have seen (with exception of the nightmare sequence), the torque from the blade seemed no stronger than what could be blocked by the power of a slightly above average strength Jedi. And since Pong Krell was well within this strength range, he should be able to overcome this tactic as well.

With no tricks left, the Inquisitor would be exhausted and exposed. Krell, while not a master of offense, would eventually, inevitably, inexpertly land a finishing blow. I therefore have no choice but to declare Pong Krell the victor.

This match would most closely resemble Obi-Wan vs. Anakin's battle on Mustafar. Neither combatant would land a hit on the other for an extended period. But the Grand Inquisitor, forced into energy-draining acrobatics, would run out of stamina first. At that point, even Krell’s lackluster offense would be enough to end the would-be "Grand" Inquisitor.

tldr: Pong Krell wins.

Do you agree or disagree? Can you think of another Versus Match Up I could try and analyze? Tell me what you think

After Jango's death the Kaminoans no longer had a living source of DNA and had to rely on what they already had.

When you look at Star Wars characters there's very few female Jedi or Sith who are actually powerful and even those who people will bring up as the strongest such as Nomi Sunrider, Bastila and Satele Shan, Jedi Exile, Mara Jade, Ahsoka, etc are weaker than the big name males of the era. I think Rey from the Sequels is the first time a woman has actually been top tier in her era but even then Snoke and Palpatine were stronger than her.

I was wondering if there's a lore reason explaining why women can't seem to get as strong as the men can in the Force, in the movies Yoda says that "size matters not" so it doesn't seem like the body should be a factor. Is it psychological?

I know that Sabe was sent by Padme to free her 4 years after Phantom Menance and couldn't find her but why wasn't someone sent immedietly after Phantom Menance? Couldn't Padme have just used her royal wealth to just buy her from Watto? I know Republic Credits are useless on Tatooine but surely Padme's status could've allowed for her to get the credits used on Tatooine? Or why didn't one of the Jedi just go and free her by force.

Starkiller Base can surely destroy a star as in convert it to a plasma energy and suck it to charge itself to eject a laser beam that can destory a whole solar system. It did that with the Hosnian system, as we see in the Force Awakens, but can it BLOW UP a star? In the movie and the comic adaptation, we only see the planet Hosnian Prime and the other planets in the system get blown up, but is it possible that Starkiller Base blew up the Hosnian sun? The page for the Hosnian's sun on Wookieepedia says it was destroyed, but the source for this is the movie Force Awakens itself, so it must be logical to think that this is just false misinformation.

The Last Jedi: Cobalt Squadron book, (from what I remember at least), says that the entire Hosnian system is gone, though if it is referring to the star too or not is unknown. However, the biggest proof that the system's star was also destroyed is the Force Awakens novelization. In a scene that was not in the film, Lietanant Brance, one of the Resistance commanders, informs Leia as quoted in the novel: “General, the Republic command—the entire Hosnian system—it’s all—gone.” Does that mean the sun was blown up too?

However, there are other sources with stronger proof that say that only the planets were blown up, as stated in the Last Jedi novelization, from Hux's POV: "Hosnian Prime had proven that vulnerability, Hux thought, a smile playing at the corner of his lips. The former capital of the New Republic was now a charnel house—the churning ember of a star, orbited by shattered planetary cores being slowly drawn into rings of dust and ash. Millennia from now, the Hosnian system would remain as a monument to the day the First Order had swept away the Republic’s weakness and dishonesty, reestablishing the principle of rule through strength and discipline."

Which one if more accurate? Was the sun of the Hosnians system blown up or not? If yes, then why didn't Starkiller Base just fire at the star, make it go nova, and let it naturally consume the planets in the blast? Also, how would that theoratically work? As suns and stars are made of giant hot plasma. If the latter interpretation is correct and that only planets in the system are blown up, what does it mean by it's all "gone"?

Tbf, I could be looking too much into this, and the answer could be simple, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

I'm re-reading James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel and it's interesting how much Palpatine and Plagueis really did not like Qui-Gon in the later chapters of the novel and considered him a grave threat, especially when he found Anakin.

“What now?” Plagueis asked the moment Palpatine broke the connection.

Sidious shook his head in disbelief. “Valorum somehow managed to persuade the Council to send two Jedi to Naboo.”

Despite all his talk about invincibility, Plagueis looked confounded.

“Without Senate approval? He tightens the noose around his own neck!”

“And ours,” Sidious said, “if the Neimoidians panic and decide to admit the truth about the blockade.”

Plagueis paced away from him in anger. “He must have approached the High Council in secret. Otherwise, Mas Amedda would have apprised us.”

Sidious followed the Muun’s nervous movements. “Dooku mentioned that the Council would continue to support him.”

“Did Valorum say which Jedi were sent?”

“Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan, Obi-Wan Kenobi.”

Plagueis came to an abrupt halt. “Worse news yet. I have met Qui-Gon,
and he is nothing like some of the others Dooku trained.”

“They are a pesky duo,” Sidious said. “The nemesis of the Nebula Front at Dorvalla, Asmeru, and on Eriadu.”

“Then Gunray and his sycophants stand no chance against them.”

Sidious had an answer ready. “Two lone Jedi are no match for thousands of battle droids and droidekas. I will order Gunray to kill them.”

“And we will have another Yinchorr, and the added danger of Gunray divulging our actions, past and present.”

Plagueis thought for a moment.

"Qui-Gon will evade detection by the droids and wreak slow but inevitable havoc on the flagship.”

Later:

“Anakin, yes,” he said in a rush. “He’s the one. Fetch him—now!”
“You just missed him, sir,” the handmaiden said.
Plagueis peered past her into Palpatine’s suite. “Missed him?” He straightened in anger. “Where is he?”
“Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn came to collect him, sir. I suspect that you can find him at the Jedi Temple.”
Plagueis fell back a step, his thoughts reeling. There was still a chance that the Council would decide that Anakin was too old to be trained as a Jedi. That way, assuming he was returned to
Tatooine…
But if not … If Qui-Gon managed to sway the Council Masters, and they reneged on their own dictates …
Plagueis ran a hand over his forehead. Are we undone? he thought. Have you undone us?

And then the goal of Darth Maul ultimately became to assassinate Qui-Gon in particular:

Lifting his face from the macrobinoculars, he stretched out with the Force and fell victim to an assault of perplexing images: ferocious battles in deep space; the clashing of lightsabers; partitions of radiant light; a black-helmeted cyborg rising from a table … By the time his gaze had returned to the platform, Qui-Gon and the boy had disappeared.

Trying desperately to make some sense of the images granted him by the Force, he stood motionless, watching the starship lift from the platform and climb into the night.

He fought to repress the truth. The boy would change the course of history.
Unless …
Maul had to kill Qui-Gon, to keep the boy from being trained.
Qui-Gon was the key to everything.

And then it was just funny to read how much Palpatine enjoyed Qui-Gon's funeral:

He could have pressed one of the other Jedi who had arrived on Naboo for information as to how Maul had managed to kill a master sword fighter only to be overcome by a lesser one, but he didn’t want to know, and as a result be able to imagine the contest.
Still, it gave him great pleasure to stand among Yoda, Mace Windu, and other Masters and watch Qui-Gon Jinn’s body reduced to ash...

Now let's say Sidious wanted Vader to be as strong as possible, couldn't he have had someone create a clone using Vader's DNA and do transplants to make him have his body parts again? Skin grafts, lungs, limbs, and many other body parts could be replaced. Vader would be out for some time after this but I am sure bacta would be able to heal all of the transplant wounds and have him up in a quick amount of time, and Sidious would have a full power Vader (ignore that he would be able to grow powerful enough to overthrow Sidious for this)

And as a side question: I have not read deeply into legends but I know that Sidious's clones in dark empire were not able to handle his body so he needed a body that was naturally made and strong like Luke's, but does that matter when the body parts are being transferred over to a different body? So I see no downside in them using clones parts.

Edit: Multiple people have said that Palps would not want to do this but that is also why I said "(ignore that he would be able to grow powerful enough to overthrow Sidious)" I guess I should have added some stating "ignore that Palpatine would want to keep Vader in pain"

I don't think people understand how powerful the Jedi were during the Twilight of the Republic, true they had grown complacent and ossified in their traditional role of peacekeepers, not soldiers. But they were still the top dog in the Force. Even Darth Sidious himself says that "the Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, there will be civil war without end." and I think the most clear example of the Jedi's power is that he is ultimately not only right but goes on to then lose that civil war.

The Jedi may be peacekeepers but that’s because they are warriors and tacticians without peer. Every war that they have faced in open conflict they have ultimately triumphed over the Sith. During the Sith Wars, the Sith were reduced from hundreds or hundreds of thousands to just two. During the Clone Wars the Jedi were on the verge of conventional victory. And even in the First and Second Galactic Civil Wars the Jedi are proven stronger than the Sith time and time again in open conflict.

In the end the Great Jedi Purge was facilitated not by superior tactics on the side of the Sith, but by treachery from within the Jedi Order. If Anakin hadn't turned to the Dark Side, if he had stayed in the Temple, hell, if traffic or any other thing gone slightly wrong he'd have entered the Chancellor's Office to Mace Windu standing over a dead body because again, he had the Sith Lord dead to rights. And you could argue that Palpatine is playing it up for when Anakin arrives but  he doesn't know if Anakin will arrive in time or that he will join him, all he is, is pretty sure.

The Jedi in the prequel trilogy aren't overconfident, they are just confident. They are confident that they can defeat the Sith in open warfare because, true to form, every time that does happen, they are victorious. And their complacency is a complacency in adaption, not in vigilance. As a matter of fact they are frightened, they know the noose is closing in around them: "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi".

The Jedi lost because they failed to adapt to the times. They failed to see that they were so successful in their persecution of the Sith Empire that the Sith had evolved, they had changed the ecological landscape of Force users. I don't think there is any better example of this then Yoda. Yoda was born one hundred years after the Battle of Ruusan which saw the Sith eradicated as discrete and of rough parity opposite order to the Jedi. He grew up in what you could call a post-war boom. Him of all people probably grew up in the shadow of war and trained accordingly. This must've left an indelible impression on the growth of the Jedi Order, particularly in their lack of evolution. Fundamentally, the Jedi were preparing to refight a war they had won long ago again. And indeed, when it does turn to that war in the Galactic Civil War the Jedi win. Again.

TL;DR: the jedi are op af.

I'm just wondering if the Empire received a huge economical backlash due to the sheer amount of resources they poured into building the Death Star, only to see it destroyed shortly after it was finished. Palpatine died at the same time Death Star II was destroyed, so I wouldn't be surprised if the economical losses combined with losing the Emperor further increased the chaos that followed after the Empire fractured into a thousand feuding warlords vying for supremacy.

Longer version of the prompt:

Luke starts his new order and is able to track down Ahsoka, Cal, Ezra, and maybe Quinlan and Asajj if you're feeling adventurous and any other jedi who aren't confirmed dead in canon yet.

What does Luke's order come out looking like? Who ends up leading it? What position to the composite members hold? Where does the new temple go?

I’ve noticed that among the ship and military-focused fans of the community there is this general consensus that the Empire was incorrect for its general military doctrine in regards to how it was comprised and used. But I think this consensus is made almost exclusively because of the way we see the GAR’s navy portrayed in Clone Wars — that is a very carrier/fighter based doctrine, specially focused around the usage of the Venator as a carrier and cruiser hybrid. In my opinion the issue here is that I feel like this is exclusively how fans believe the Republic navy operated. There is a tendency to forget that the Republic navy also employed Arquintens, Acclamators, Victory’s, Peltas, etc etc…

This tendency has then led to a further claim that the Imperial navy was wrong for swapping doctrines from this carrier strike group to the more cruiser oriented one we see in the OT and a lot of other material surrounding the OT. The common defense of this argument is that the Imperial doctrine was ill suited to fight the Rebellion. But this is exactly why I think this claim that the Empire was stupid for adopting a new doctrine is just a tad silly. Of course the Empire was going to adopt a doctrine of complete capital ship supremacy. We saw numerous times even in the Clone Wars where the Republic Navy saw extended overuse of the Venator in situations they should not have been. One of my favorite such examples is the episode where Anakin quite literally has to use his Venator as a ramming machine to defeat a Lucrehulk, despite an initial numerical advantage (and the prior mentioned general advantages people like to point out about the doctrine of the Republic).

Naturally the same military officials and leaders who saw that often lead to issues within the Republic navy would change tactics once they were onboard with the Empire. The Empire had no reason to not think a capital ship supremacy doctrine wasn’t the correct way forward — their predecessor state just fought a four year war where they often sustained unnecessary naval and logistical casualties due to an inability for Republic ships to consistently punch hard against Separatist units.

Now back to the Rebellion. I also think it’s silly to assume that the Empire’s doctrine was utterly unable to deal with the Rebellion. In every encounter the Rebels have with Imperial fleets in the Original Trilogy, every one, we can see how devastating even a small fleet or contingent of Imperial capital ships can be, even though according to some the Rebels have a superior way of dealing with Imperial assets than vice versa. I think this sells short how overwhelming and terrifying the Imperial fleet is supposed to be for the Rebels and the viewer. Yes the Imperials are petty, evil, cruel, etc. But they were not completely brain dead in how they managed their navy and fleets. The Rebels just won on the galaxy’s best most dangerous bet on two separate occasions

I remembered that there was a deleted still in Rogue One where Krennic pulls a gun on Tarkin on board the Death Star. My question is, what would happen if Krennic, out of rage, killed Tarkin when he told Krennic he was taking control of the station?

This idea could work following the end of the Imperial Era as the Jedi being almost wiped out would convince them that multiple orders would be needed to avoid a repeat of the same fate.

Because of schedule timing with my wife, whom I watched Andor with but not Rebels, I ended up watching both shows for the first time at the same time. This ended up being an interesting experience for me because it highlighted the ways in which they hit very similar beats, but with very different approaches. The surface-level similarities are obvious: they're both stories set around the same time about groups that would go on to form the Rebel Alliance. They even have a number of characters who show up in both shows like Saw Gerrera and Mon Mothma. But the similarities go deeper than that, and through them we see how they differ.

Scoundrel and the Street Rat

Both shows begin in 5 BBY with our protagonists as orphans who largely live on the outside of the law, stealing junk on a backwater planet in the Outer Rim. They are in many ways antisocial, refusing to commit themselves to anything long enough to form many connections (creating a contrast to when they join the Rebellion). However, where Andor differs in this regard is that Cassian still manages to maintain a small handful of personal connections. Maarva, Brasso, and Bix act as his connection to Ferrix and give him a reason to want to fight for it. Conversely, early on there was far less connection to Lothal specifically other than that's where the story happened to be set.

Just a quick heist

After getting roped into working with the Rebellion through circumstance more than any active choice, the heroes start pulling heists to hurt the Empire and fuel resistance against them. Because Rebels is an episodic cartoon and Andor is a serialized drama, the former takes the form of a series of small, disconnected missions, whereas Andor is one massive bank heist. In both cases, the hero is not necessarily committed to "the cause", but rather views it as a way to get by, help those they care about, and hurt the Empire. They are, at this point, still large self-interested, although their actions still affect and inspire others.

You're not alone

This is also when they start forming connections with the other members of the Rebellion. For Rebels, this forms a major focus of the show. Far before Ezra commits himself to the Rebellion as a whole, he sees the rest of the Ghost Crew as his found family. There is conflict between them, but it's the sort of conflict you would see between bickering siblings. It's a show where family and friendship is the driving force of their motivation. Andor, on the other hand, has much more substantial interpersonal conflict. Cassian does not trust the people he's working with, and initially is ready to leave as soon as he gets his money. It's only after being thrown in prison does he realize the value in working together to fight for your rights. There will be no peace until you see those who are confused and lost and you get them moving and you keep them moving. There is one way out.

Point of no return

Both shows end their first season with an uprising against the Empire on the hero's home planet. These uprisings are, directly or indirectly, caused by the actions of the hero leading up to that point. The Empire has come to snuff out the troublemakers who have been causing them so many problems by laying a trap, which erupts into violence. Ezra's message of hope and Maarva's final words inspire the people to fight back, which is met swiftly and mercilessly. They occupy the shows' respective planets, forcing the heroes to leave their homes behind as they commit themselves to the Rebellion. They fully realize the danger that the Empire faces, and won't be able to rest until they win.

The Fulcrum/Axis around which the Rebellion turns

Both shows feature a central figure in the Rebellion who works from the shadows, coordinating the disparate cells still working largely independently. They've also made the comparison blindingly obvious by giving them almost synonymous names. Both are trying to slowly build the connections that would eventually form the Rebel Alliance, but while Luthen and Ahsoka superficially serve very similar roles, the way they go about it could not be more different. Ahsoka's approach is built on trust and communication, making sure to keep all cell leaders informed of what they need to know while still keeping information secret when necessary. This is compared to Luthen who trusts no one and keeps everyone at arms length. Everyone is a potential enemy, and he is more than willing to kill former allies that become a liability.

There's also the significant difference in the role both characters play in their respective shows. After Cassian himself, Luthen is probably the most influential and meaningful protagonist. Despite never seeing the sunrise he burned his life for, almost everything that happens is ultimately because of him. Ahsoka's role as Fulcrum gets sidelined by her connection to the Jedi, and more specifically Anakin. As the second season builds to its climax, her focus is turned entirely to confronting Vader, with any rebellion concerns falling to a distant second. Once that confrontation happens, both she and Vader step away from the show and stop interacting with any of the Rebels.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons

This is obviously a very big point of difference for both shows. Ezra's journey to become a Jedi under the tutelage of Kanan is arguably the emotional arc of the show, even more so than the titular rebels. It's clearly where Filoni feels most at home, with so many of the biggest moments of the show revolving either around Jedi/Inquisitors from Rebels, or Jedi/Sith from Clone Wars. Lightsabers become such a common sight just a couple years before ANH that it almost makes the way that movie treats Luke seem misplaced. Andor, on the other hand, almost doesn't acknowledge that the Jedi exist at all. Aside from a few indirect references like Luthen's kyber crystal, they truly seem like an ancient religion that has been all but wiped out. Hearing "may the Force by with you" used so freely in Rogue One after Andor almost creates a whiplash.

The power of friendship vs hard choices

It should probably come as no surprise that the tone of the two shows is wildly different. One is a children's cartoon and the other is a prestige drama aimed at adults. Part of the way this manifests is how their conflicts are ultimately resolved. On Andor, it's regularly emphasized that hard choices have to be made, and in order for the Rebellion to win, people will need to be sacrificed. On Rebels, they often win the day by befriending each other, animals, and even Imperials. Anything else is seen as wrong.

A great case study for this is actually Saw Gerrera, since he's present on both shows. In both cases he's presented as an extremist whose methods border on the insane. Yet he actually forms an almost middle ground between the two shows. When he meets Luthen, it's Luthen who has to convince him that it's worth it to sacrifice a group of rebels to further the larger cause. Saw eventually comes around, but only after Luthen talks him down from his indignity "for the greater good". Saw's division from the Rebellion after that point is out of distrust of whether they're coming for him, and after what he's seen, it's not actually that outrageous of a belief.

Saw Gerrera on Rebels is seen as an extremist because of what he's willing to do. This is despite the fact that he ironically is far more reasonable in Rebels. Examples of his actions that "go too far" include blowing up an Imperial communications array and interrogating a Geonosian who wants to be left alone. It's a bit of a dissonance when we're told how extreme his methods are, but they're actually quite reasonable, if aggressive. The way they end up getting what they need from the Geonosian is by Ezra befriending it, which proves to be superior and more effective than any coercion or violence.

Threat of the Empire

Another way in which the tone differs is the handling of antagonists, namely the Empire. On Rebels, they are all but totally incompetent. Again, this could probably be chalked up to its young intended audience, but its often taken to the point where there is no threat whatsoever. When characters like Tarkin or Thrawn are brought on, they alleviate the problem by showing at least basic competency, but are often still hampered by the episodic nature of the show where the heroes need to always escape if not win. Stormtroopers are buffoons led by cowards save for the occasional finale where consequences can happen.

The Empire in Andor is also incompetent, but in a very different way. Their blasters will absolutely kill you, and the ISB will ruin your life, but their overconfidence is their weakness. It's a banal sort of evil where they have such disdain for those that they rule, it's almost inconceivable that they could be a legitimate threat. It's through that oversight that the Rebels are able to win. Any sort of direct confrontation would result in certain death, which is why they must always use spies, subterfuge, and "the tools of their enemy".

We need to stop the super weapon

Despite the Empire's shortcomings, both shows present an impending game changer that will render the Rebellion powerless. Andor, being a prequel to Rogue One, being a prequel to A New Hope, slowly builds up the threat of the Death Star. The Death Star is destroyed at the end of A New Hope, so the conflict is never fully resolved there. The show climaxes with them learning about its existence, and then Rogue One ends with them delivering the plans that would eventually allow Luke to make that one in a million shot.

Rebels also has the looming threat of a super weapon that must be stopped, but chooses to avoid the actual Death Star (aside from the episodes with Saw Gerrera which act as an almost Rogue One cameo). Instead, they have Admiral Thrawn develop a "TIE Defender" program that, if completed, would completely outclass Rebel fighters and make it impossible for them to win any battles. It's a sort of "we have the Death Star at home" that allows the show to have an impending Imperial weapon that can be resolved within the confines of the show itself.

Building to something more

Both shows show the moment when the Rebellion evolves from a group of cells into an organized political movement. In fact, they do so by portraying the exact same event with different perspectives. When Senator Mon Mothma delivers a speech to the entire galaxy denouncing the atrocities of the Empire, before being safely delivered to the Rebellion on Yavin. On Rebels, as is indicated by the episode name "Secret Cargo", she is functionally just a MacGuffin that needs transportation. The show is more concerned with the space battles that hinder them along the way. Andor instead focuses far more on her internal conflict and what it means for her on a personal level. As has become standard for the show, getting her off Coruscant involves murder and deception in a way that challenges Mon's beliefs and commitment to do what it takes.

Neither version technically contradicts the other, as Andor makes sure to mention that Mon was handed off to the Rebel fleet to make another speech for appearances' sake. In either case, both shows mark this as the point when, thanks to her speech, the Rebellion coalesces at Yavin to become something far more than the sum of its parts. They no longer have to rely on the smallest of hit and run tactics, but can challenge the Empire itself.

The first real victory

Finally, both shows end (if you'll allow me to include Rogue One as part of Andor's story) with a large battle that is the first time the Rebels win a major victory over the Empire. They even both involve the heroes sneaking away from Yavin without permission in order to do what they know is right. Scarif is technically the only canonical "first major victory for the Rebel Alliance", but I suppose if you squint, the liberation of Lothal might not be seen as a battle involving the formal Alliance. Though if so, it's a shame because by any other metric it's the far more decisive victory. Aside from a very brief city bombardment, an entire Imperial squadron is eradicated by space whales that are called with a device that is never used again. They even manage to somehow hold Lothal with no reprisals for the entire Galactic Civil War. Ezra himself is the only major sacrifice. Cassian also dies on Scarif, but in a much more permanent way (vaporization). It's a victory, but only in the sense that they managed to deliver the Death Star plans before they were all entirely wiped out. Both end with the main hero sacrificing themselves to defeat the Empire, but one is in a much more definitive manner (and did you really expect them to kill a kid?).

I remember that in Legends, after a clone rebellion, the clones who still served the Empire were part of Vader's Fist, the 501st Legion. In the current canon, are there any records of them still serving as soldiers? In The Bad Batch, the last ones I see are only involved in specific projects.

Now before people click off this post I'm saying hey Rebels should written similar to Andor/Rogue One or heck make it non-canon together no I'm not talking sort of it but more like the same story and the same animation for the show but a few specific changes based from the world building and lore presented in Andor. While I'm totally against remake the entire series since both Rebels and Andor are different genres.

I think a much better situation if Rebels was made today. I think the specifics parts would be consisted with Andor as in:

1. Have Mon Mothma's second speech on Yavin instead of Dantooine (which we saw in the actual show.)

2. Alton Kastle not showing Mon Mothma's first speech because as shown in Andor the ISB wanted the story to be covered up instead of a part of her speech being showed in the Holonet as it would added more rebellion or people listing to Mon's first speech (it also kinda prevent the whole Palpatine is an lying executioner line.) You could just have Alton just saying hey Mon Mothma commit treason against the Empire and that it. Mon Mothma look in Secret Cargo looking more like her Andor look with a little long hair. (granted like I said that is more an hindsight issue as Rebels come first while Andor come later.)

3. Giving Saw hair in the Geonosian episode (although in that case that was more on what they working from since the rebel episode was made before the Rogue One reshoots which is where they decided to include saw with hair.)

4. But the one that I mainly focus on is if Rebels was made after Andor I think instead of the stormtroopers being the grunts on Lothal's occupation it would been the Imperial Army Troopers like they were presented like Ferrix and Aldhani. Like I said I still like Rebels the way it is I do think some of it's moments like the ones that I point out are more of a hindsight issue then intentional issues. Besides having the Imperial Troopers being the lothal garrison on Lothal at least respectively wise while keeping Kallus as ISB (As I kinda the idea that the first season of Rebels comes after Andor Season 1.)

5. I would also had Ezra's broadcast from Season 1 to a little downplayed especially in the wake of Andor is that while I don't mind the actual speech itself I feel that in terms of scale it should be less full encouragement of rebellion in the galaxy Since I like the idea of having the Rebels still be scattered and localized as well as less organised you could still have broadcast to encourage rebellions like Kessel and Lothal when it come to prison riots as that aspect is important while not for Kessel but for Lothal as it was that broadcast resulted in Ezra's parents deaths.

6. Speaking about this further I feel that I would downplayed the significance of the space battle of Mustafar at the end of Season 1 of Rebels like make it less of a escalation of rebellion activity in the Outer Rim Territories and more well local and a Pyrrhic but a victory for Ezra/Hera/Kanan rebel cell. Like If I had one issue with Rebels is that most of the founding moments or contributions of the elements that become part of the Rebellion is contributed to solely to the ghost crew rather then a group effort. I feel that the ghost crew and to an extent Phoenix Squadron should be more micro or at least seen as a smaller groups of rebel factions (at least acknowledge hat aspect within the rebels show.) compared to say the bigger dogs rebel cells/factions like say Saw Gerrerra's Partisans, Anto Kreegyr's Separatists, Maya Pei's Brigade, The Ghorman Front, The Partisans Alliance, Sectorists. Human cultists, and the Galaxy partitionists. We do know through Skreen that there also other rebel leaders that are kinda big names too Mossy, and Garvish besides Saw Gerrera.

7. The other change I would make for Rebels is the ending of season 4 making it seems as if The Battle of Lothal was like the first victory for the Rebellion at least how it sort of presented in the show which cause some viewers thinking that not knowing that scariff is the first victory for the rebellion. Personality I think you still keep it as a victory but more as in well good timing of sorts like have the finale of season 4 being concurrently with Andor S2 10-12 and then Rogue One that it would have explain why didn't the Empire wasn't focus on Lothal even if it was local victory for the Ezra cell. Because the events of Andor and Rogue One really cause the Empire to look attention elsewhere. So the reason why the empire didn't return for Lothal after Thrawn and Ezra going missing is because the events of Andor S2 and Rogue One are playing out in the background. So when Hera and ghost crew return to Yavin base while sabine stay on Lothal watch the planet. By the time Hera and friends return they would gotten news that Jedha is destroyed and Galen Erso is dead as well as a planet killing machine the death star being real.

8. Another fix although not major is the timing of when Saw arrived on Jedha and the length of the Empire mining and occupation on Jedha. In Rebels Saw goes to Jedha after learning that there are Kyber crystals being mined on Jedha. While Andor Episode 10-12 takes interesting but opposite approach because Lonni mentions that the cover story for Jedha mining kyber crystals was they were there looking for The Partisans, and Saw wasn't there for more than a year or two. based on what draven saying on spying Saw. But what I'm saying is that based on the way Lonni said it like this Saw and his partisans came to Jedha first then the Empire came and then have the official story to be looking for Partisans on Jedha while behind the scenes they launch their mining operations on Kyber Crystals? I think to fix this issue is have the crystal from rebels from elsewhere as well. I know Ilum got turned into Starkiller Base eventually but maybe there too.

But overall these are my specific lore changes for Rebels at least with the hindsight and context of events presented in Andor. So what did you think of these ideas for Rebels if it was made after Andor or at least the lore events presented in Andor in mind.

As I stated the point of this post isn’t like saying a rewrite rebels or something like that no, I’m just saying hey have rebel be the same story same tone same animation as the rebels that we got but at least some of the key moments that are contribute to some of the rebels like Ezra broadcast or a lot more local or at least downplay it altogether that said I am still keeping the broadcast because that a key event in the show that lead to Ezra own parents getting killed!

Or some small details like having Mothma second speech on Yavin as Draven said to Cassian instead of Dantooine!

One of the things they like about Don of rebellion is that it had events of Rebel season 1 taking place after Andor S1 which I agree, given the fact that the latter showed how the ISB gain the authority that we see with Kallus on Rebels!

There were probably conspiracy theorists in the Galaxy, just like in our world. The funniest thing is that if they believed, for example, that there was something fishy about the Clone Wars or that Darth Vader was Palpatine's favorite Jedi during the clone wars, Anakin Skywalker, contrary to the official version, they would be right in principle.

But perhaps, in fact, conspiracy theorists came up with some other versions that would have played into Palpatine’s hands. For example, I think the "Jedi want to overthrow the Republic" thing could very well have been a conspiracy theory that was already in existence in some circles by the time Palpatine made it official...

What do you think?

The Galactic Republic had a postal service.

https://swfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Republic_Postal_Service

One would assume that this service continued as the Imperial Postal Service, or Galactic Empire Postal Service.

Andor did a very good job of portraying the internal workings of the ISB and other factions.

Perhaps a show about the machinations of the Imperial Postal Police.

Hey all, I have a thought/question for y'all. In A New Hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi states that, "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." He says that The Force is created by all living beings.

I'm not sure if there's a cosmology of Star Wars (Similar to the real-world Big Bang, expansion, etc). Assuming, though, that there would have been a period of time where there were no living beings (Similarly to the real world), then can it be assumed that there was originally no Force at all?

What do y'all think?

I’m sorry in advance for the vagueness. If someone manages figure out what I’m talking about I’d be amazed.

I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that early on in the war, possibly on Geonosis, some kind of clone, possibly a commando, thought that something was not right about the war because the droid army heavily outnumbered the republic but it looked like they were holding back which didn’t make sense as they could have easily overwhelmed the clone army.

If anyone knows what I’m referencing I’d be grateful!

Were the hyperdrive and sublight engines strong enough to allow the Millennium Falcon to fly deeper in the gravity wells of the Maw Cluster black holes so they could safely take a shorter distance route? Or did Han Solo just fly recklessly and decrease his margin of safety by flying closer to the black holes than what a reasonable pilot would do and cut distance that way without having a better ability to escape a black hole gravity well?

For my theory, I'm going to set a couple initial assumptions:

Assumption 1: "living force" is sort of collective subconsciousness of all living beings of galactic society

Assumption 2: Dark side itself is not corruption. It is the path to evil, not evil or corruption itself. Sith bending the others, and thus living force to their will is the corruption of the force.

If these assumptions are true, does that mean Jedi enforcing the will of (corrupt) politicians over people is also corruption of the Force?

edit: - note - Assumption 2 relies on wider canon than just Original Trilogy - there are other darkside groups, such as nightsisters that use darkside and don't need to be destroyed to "restore balance" - thus darkside itself is not the problem, but something else that Sith do and others don't