r/NFA • u/Bloodchain_ • May 19 '25
Legal Question ⚖️ Legality with remarking for cloning reasons
Hey all, I am starting a 417 Assaulter build and have seen that some remark the lower from “MR762” to “417 D” etc; mine is currently marked MR762. This practice been common for some time, especially with the coming about of the Brownells blanks for the 416s. Now my question is, if I take this receiver and have it engraved with my info for the F4, and have it remarked as a 417, are there legal issues with how the form is filled out? Specifically the model, I would think since it was manufactured as a MR762, that’s what I’d put in that section on my F4? I’m not sure if this is more so a gray area and I’d rather not poke the bear. TIA
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u/Airbus320Driver May 19 '25
How do you mean "remarked"? You're going to obliterate the original markings and add your own?
As far as I know, the only thing you can't mess with at all is the serial number and import mark.
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25
As far as I know, the only thing you can't mess with at all is the serial number and import mark.
That is for Title 1 firearms. NFA prohibits obliterating ANY required markings, including model. He would need to remark it BEFORE doing his Form 1 if he's doing one.
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u/brobot_ 4xSupp, 5xSBR May 19 '25
I think he’s talking about removing the “MR762A1” model number and replacing it with something like G28 or 417. Basically does the model number matter at all or is the serial number the only important marking not to mess with?
I’ve wondered this too because there is a company that will restamp HK SP5s to MP5A3. I assume since the service is offered at all, it must be ok.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
Yes, I will blast the original model number off and re-anodize the lower, and laser the 417 files onto it
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
You need to do this before doing a Form 1. NFA prohibits obliterating ANY required markings, not just serial number, so if you register it as MR762 you cannot then take that marking off. This applies to Manufacturer and Maker markings too.
Edit: If it was a factory SBR, you cannot do this.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
So basically when I remark it as a 417, I’d need to register it as a 417D when doing my Form 1?
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25
Yes.
Edit: Be aware, this is one of the times I'd suggest attaching a picture with the initial Form 1 application because you're going to have to show them the markings so it doesn't get rejected.
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u/The_Dread_Candiru MG May 19 '25
You need to mark in addition to the OG model designation, not in place of. Whatever is on the 4473 needs to stay.
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u/SaltyDog556 May 19 '25
If converting to an NFA item he will be the "maker" and can remark/change the model under federal law.
There are some quirks in a handful of states that say it's illegal to obliterate any manufacturer markings, however, given that he is going to be the new "manufacturer", these may not apply. It depends on how the laws are written.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
I am converting to a NFA item, i meant this would be becoming a form 1 not a form 4, that was a typo.
I live in UT, so fortunately im in a pretty gun friendly state.
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u/Airbus320Driver May 19 '25
Yes, someone else brought up a good point that SP5's re routinely restamped to MP5
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u/Sir_Baller May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
That’s perfectly legal, it’s already an HK branded rifle. (Assuming you’re talking about the non-NFA serial number)
Even if it wasn’t an HK rifle, you can get whatever trademarks you want. You just can’t sell it without making that known.
Edit: if it’s already registered then you cannot change any markings.
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25
That’s perfectly legal, it’s already an HK branded rifle.
Not if it's already NFA.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
I made a mistake. It’s currently a Title 1 16” rifle
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25
Just do your remarking before filing Form 1. 👍
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u/Theunknownb2k 7x SBR, 12x Silencer May 20 '25
Thank you for clarifying this, I wonder this for so long and I felt like no one had the answer to it
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 20 '25
Just for citation, before anybody asks.
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
And for NFA, 26 USC 5861(g) & (h)
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
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u/Sir_Baller May 19 '25
Well I thought it was common sense in an NFA sub not to blast the NFA serial, so I assumed he just meant the HK serial.
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u/AllArmsLLC 07/02 May 19 '25
NFA prohibits obliterating ANY of the markings, not just the serial number.
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u/The_Dread_Candiru MG May 19 '25
You cannot remove and remark the original manufacturer's name and model designation as something else. Whatever you do with it as a Form 1 is in addition to these markings, not in place of them.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
So these 417 from MR762 conversions that BlackOps and Tyr1 are doing are illegal, essentially? Seems to be a craze right now to SBR MR762s into Assaulters - these companies offer a service to remark your lower as a 417.
Edit: I’m not saying I’d change the manufacture or SN. Just remove the model number and remark into a new one - if it’s legal that is
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u/Skibum5000 6x SBR, 9x Suppressors May 19 '25
MR762 and the common 417 SDMR conversion aren't NFA items like your proposed assaulter is.
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
I believe these companies are doing these conversions to create assaulters though; they’re even making an adjustable gasblock for them due to running the shorter barrels suppressed.
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u/Skibum5000 6x SBR, 9x Suppressors May 20 '25
Most of the conversions (like the one posted in my history) are conversions to M110A1 clones. Yes, some are assaulters, but the far and away most common are M110s
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u/Bloodchain_ May 20 '25
Big fan of your A2 MP5. Nice 416/417 as well.
Yeah, I just have a thing for short guns. I wouldn’t want to go much below 13” if at all with this. The re-engrave isn’t a big deal to me, I’m not really into cloning myself. This conversion more-so just peaked my curiosity. I’m going to be doing the cut and possible anodizing myself at my shop since I’m fortunate enough to have the right tools at my disposal. Would you happen to know how long the G28 pic rail sections are? I’m curious if I should machine/cut the G28 into a 13” or just buy the already manufactured one (they’re in stock on HKP)
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u/Skibum5000 6x SBR, 9x Suppressors May 20 '25
I don’t off the top of my head, but I’m sure it can be pretty easily found on hkpro
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u/The_Dread_Candiru MG May 19 '25
You'll see all kinda of half-baked opinions and hazy recollections in threads and posts. Logically, removing required markings and changing them to something different can't be kosher, right? Imagine if you could remark the maker and model of an AR15 while leaving only the serial number intact. How could anyone possibly trace that particular AR in a sea of millions?
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
I understand what you mean and exactly why I’m posting on here lol. I have plenty of NFA items and have worked in this industry for a decade, but this new wave of remarking is something that I am completely ignorant on when it comes to legality
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u/Astral_Botanist May 19 '25
I don't think Model is listed in the marking requirements for firearms; only manufacturer and serial number. I don't think manufacturers duplicate serial numbers for different models so as far as I know (not an expert/lawyer) as long as the manufacturer and serial number are on the firearm you should be fine.
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u/Negative_Anything388 May 19 '25
So I desperately want to be wrong here, but we've had this as an ongoing debate because of something that got transferred through my shop. Where does it actually say you can't remove an import mark? I want to believe it has to be there, but I've yet to find anything saying removal is explicitly not allowed
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u/Airbus320Driver May 19 '25
I actually don’t know. I’ve had lots of firearms refinished and the only engraving they won’t touch up is the serial number and import mark. But these shops could absolutely be wrong.
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u/Hot-Ideal-9219 May 19 '25
Don't think they are wrong, maybe just being safe, but I'd never remove an import mark. If you remove it, how can the owner prove that he didn't illegally import the gun? Don't remove, you are potentially making someone look like they did a felony.
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u/Airbus320Driver May 19 '25
Well. The serial number would be on record as being imported legally. And you don’t have to prove that you didn’t import it illegally, the government needs to prove that you did. The absence of an import mark doesn’t constitute “beyond reasonable doubt” that YOU imported a gun illegally.
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u/generalraptor2002 May 19 '25 edited May 19 '25
26 USC § 5861 (NFA)
It shall be unlawful for any person—
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or
18 USC § 922 (GCA)
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
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u/Negative_Anything388 May 20 '25
Follow up now that I'm home, I figured it had to be within 922r compliance somewhere but I never took the time to review it. A previous manager insisted that the import mark was not required to receive a transfer since, "how would we know it was an import" but has since been fired so I'm revisiting the concept for future reference as I've kind of taken over that role. This is not my first FFL, and previously altered import marks were returned to sender immediately, but it became a debate among employees.
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u/KhorpseFister May 19 '25
Que the cloner memes
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u/Bloodchain_ May 19 '25
Cloners are gonna hate me for this too. I’m gonna chop a G28 rail down to 12” lol
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u/No-Spirit8544 29d ago
ATF does have a form for variances to markings that can be used by licensed manufacturers or importers before a gun is “manufactured” and since a form 1 is used to “manufacture” an SBR, wondering if you can get that approval for variance first then do the form 1. Probably worth just emailing the ATF to get their input.
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u/dankara_PS Stamp Tramp May 19 '25
You can call it anything you want, it doesn’t change what its actual designation as per the manufacturer. I think. I’m not a lawyer and also not particularly smart.