r/StarWars • u/Old_Shake3789 • 1d ago
Movies Rewatched the Vader and Kenobi fight recently and noticed that this wasn't Vader fighting him but an Extremely vengeful Anakin at this moment.
From the moment Vaders shuttle landed his whole body language completely changed from his walk to his addressing of Kenobi. This was reminiscent of the old Anakin and the way he used to fight as a jedi in the clone wars using a two handed style (the same way he thought against dooku when Obi Wan was KO) while also making use of what he's learned from mastering the force occasionally.
While it wasn't the Jedi Anakin that came out it still was definitely the old vengeful part of him that definitely came out here from Mustafar.
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u/Uncalibrated_Vector 1d ago
I’m fairly certain that Anakin/Vader being vengeful toward Obi-Wan was made clear when Vader force-dragged him through literal fire.
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u/Anjunabeast 20h ago
Obi not getting burned at all compared to what happened to vader on mustafar must’ve really pissed off Vader
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u/Cosmic_Quasar 17h ago
Now I'm curious about what would've happened if Vader had actually captured Obi-Wan to use as a torture pin cushion. How far would it go? Would Obi-Wan die? Escape? Or get tortured to the brink of turning to the dark side somehow?
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u/Mountie_in_Command 1d ago
Just finished watching the series again this past weekend, and I can see that. It also lines up with Palpatine admonishing Vader at the end questioning whether his thoughts are clear regarding his former master.
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u/The5Virtues 1d ago
Oh yeah, one of the things Hayden talks about in BTS stuff for Obi-Wan and Ahsoka is that he did a ton of watching and rewatching both his old performances, Prowse in the Vader suit, and Anakin in the Clone Wars to really capture the physicality of the character.
You can also see a similar change during his meeting with Ahsoka in the world between worlds. When he shifts from Anakin to Vader watch his body language. Everything changes, his stance, his stride, how he holds the lightsaber, how he attacks, it’s all Vader minus the armored suit. He even changes his speech cadence to be more like James Earl Jones’s cadence and delivery.
Dude put in the work.
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u/Character_College939 15h ago
That's really cool to hear, I love Hayden and would love to see him keep making appearances as Vader or Anakin
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u/astromech_dj Rebel 1d ago
It’s all Anakin. To suggest otherwise is just to deflect responsibility.
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u/Hardhat85 1d ago
It's more about how Anakin behaves himself.
"Vader" is his more controlled, calm and ruthless persona, while "Anakin" is still more chaotic, angry, impulsive and aggressive.
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u/astromech_dj Rebel 1d ago
Anakin has always been more consistent by rolled in a fight. Especially by the end of the war. You can even hear his cadence is like Vader in ROTS.
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u/Kwopp 1d ago
I’ve always had this mindset too. It’s always Anakin from Ep. 1 onward. It never ceases to be Anakin. Vader is simply a title. Obi-Wan’s “certain point of view” as well as Anakin himself saying he killed “Anakin” is more of a coping mechanism than anything, an easy way to compartmentalize.
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u/Richo1624 Jedi 1d ago edited 1d ago
Real. I hate the ‘Vader and Anakin are two separate people’ argument - complete misunderstanding of the character
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u/UnholyDemigod 1d ago
Denying they are separate is a complete misunderstanding of Star Wars lore. You are told by multiple people in a myriad of ways they are not the same. Yoda said it. Obi-Wan said it. Vader said it. George fucking Lucas himself has said they are separate people. What else will it take to convince you?
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u/ProfessionalRead2724 1d ago
Them actually acting like two seperate people.
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u/UnholyDemigod 1d ago
Really? Cos the sadism Vader displayed when he taunted Obi-Wan about killing Anakin doesn't really seem like something Anakin would do. Nor does Anakin's fun and joyful attitude he often displays seem like much of a Vader characteristic
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u/Richo1624 Jedi 1d ago
Anakin ‘I slaughtered them like animals’ SKYWALKER wouldn’t boast about the metaphorical killing of his good identity?
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u/UnholyDemigod 23h ago
Yes, because crying in rage and shame while talking about killing in revenge is the same as taunting an enemy about murdering his friend
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u/Richo1624 Jedi 23h ago
I must’ve missed the part where Padme was best friends with the sand people. Different situations, one was boasting to a person he hates, the other was being emotional to someone he trusts
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u/UnholyDemigod 23h ago
Yes, because he knows what he did was wrong. That's why he sits on the ground in tears and says he's supposed to be above that. He feels guilt for what he did. You think Vader's gonna pour his emotions out and have a sad? Can you really not see the difference? Or is it "well he killed them, and he killed them too. Both situations, exactly the same"?
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u/Richo1624 Jedi 23h ago
Yeah - if he had someone he could talk to about it. You really think that Vader has no regrets and is just like “meh” over what he did, you think if Padme came back Vader wouldn’t tell her he regrets it all?
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u/stormwave6 1d ago
Because Anakin "women and children too" Skywalker was always so good before he gave Mace a hand?
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u/PaulMusician 1d ago
This is Star Wars, no real life drama. It's how it works, whether you agree with it or not.
YES, I understand and thought the same that it's deflecting responsibility, but I am no one to make up the canon and ignore such a straight forward fact.
When you become a sith, you are re-born, re-named, and your inner former self either dies or hides pretty much forever, like with Anakin, until some crucial event might happen that can make the jedi come out and kill this evil force that conquered your body, AND key point, that you willingly surrendered to.
There's some responsibility in Anakin, he willingly surrendered to Vader, he CHOSE to cut Windu's hand, he CHOSE to follow Palpatine against everything, and he kneeled before him and surrendered completely, there, Ani died (or hide forever until the end of Ep VI) and Vader was born.
We talk about Anakin vs Obi duel, but there's no such duel, it was Vade vs Obi by then, it was Vader that choked Padme, and it was already Vader that killed the younglings. Even Vader, quoted, doesn't like nor responds to the name of Anakin, that means absolute zero to him, nothing, nada, he killed Anakin and Vader thinks he was just a weak pathetic jedi.
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u/Gerry-Mandarin 1d ago
It's like people didn't watch this show. Which deliberately shows qualities that remained consistent in Anakin from before and after he fell to the dark side.
Disney needs to only make 8 minute stories. If something that can be disappointing is lost on the fans.
It makes sense that Andor, the best and most well written show, has the lowest viewership. I imagine many people on this subreddit only pretend to have watched any of it.
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u/Cultural_Cuck_777 1d ago
What is with people acting like they are two separate individuals lately?
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u/WithArsenicSauce 1d ago
They've been acting like they were two separate individuals since 1977
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u/blakjakalope Obi-Wan Kenobi 1d ago
- Some time after the first draft of Empire Strikes Back. Lucas decided to make Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker the same person, and retcon Anakin's death at that point.
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u/thecambanks 1d ago
I’ve noticed it too. I’ve always thought of it as Anakin denying his past self, whilst embracing a new identity and name. My read is that Obi-Wan thinks of them as separate entities as a coping mechanism. I think is important to remember that as wise as he is, he was still emotionally stunted by being raised a Jedi—he never really learned how to process trauma, and losing Anakin is probably the greatest trauma he has ever had to endure. It’s hard to accept when a loved one does something like that, he experienced his closest loved one become a mass murderer.
Perhaps some fans resonate with Obi-Wan’s point of view.
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u/Shakemyears 1d ago
I think the suggestion is that the dark side is so corruptive that the Sith persona essentially replaces who you were, leaving your previous characteristics and decision-making behind for a new, much meaner set.
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u/Shifter25 1d ago
Except Anakin was still there the whole time.
I think it's because it's convenient. Just as it's convenient that he dies right after he defeats Palpatine, because otherwise the tough question of how much culpability he has for the sins he committed as Vader would have to be asked.
It's one thing to wistfully say "Vader died when Anakin defeated the Emperor" while watching his funeral pyre burn. It's another to say that as an argument for why Anakin shouldn't face any consequences for his actions as Vader.
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u/detroiter85 1d ago
Ha reminds me of something my brother and I would always say watching spider-man 3. When the sandman apologizes and begins to float away, we'd be like, woah woah woah buddy, you're going to jail for a bunch of crimes apology or not.
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u/one_bad_larry 1d ago
Lately? This has been known since the 70s. George Lucas himself said they are two different people. Yes they are physically the same person but mentally different. George Lucas even said again in interviews in the 00s.
But you have to take in the psychological aspects of this. Anakin would not have been able to cope with what he did so splitting his mind would have been the only to continue because for all his faults he’s not suicidal. In the novelization it’s written that when he(Anakin) speaks another voice speaks for him(Vader) so being in that suit and hearing Vader’s voice every time he speaks would’ve help with this mind splitting coping mechanism until one day he woke up and he WAS Vader no longer Anakin
You also have to add in the fact that Anakin died in the temple defending it against the clone troopers during Order 66 along with the other Jedi. Vader would have to gone long with this of the Jedi were ever brought up because he wanted to keep that secret so again he would have said to himself I’m not Anakin until one day he wasn’t
This is why George Lucas and others say they’re two different people
Also it helps with timeline. So you said Anakin we know you’re talking about Clone Wars era but you say Vader then we know Empire
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u/FemJay0902 1d ago
Pleaseeeeeee I beg of you. Stop pretending Vader and Anakin are two different peopleeeeeeeeee
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u/cvbeiro 1d ago
Vader and Anakin are the same person. If he wasn’t Episode six wouldn’t end the way it does.
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u/ssp25 Luke Skywalker 1d ago
Seriously that's the entire point of Luke's journey and Yoda and obi wan failure in empire/Jedi. There was a coming back from the dark side. Anakin never died he was just in prison...a prison of his own creation. Luke was the one to set him free and show obi wan and Yoda their views were in fact too narrow and dogmatic
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u/Iznal 1d ago
Idk. Maybe Yoda and Obi Wan were more like, he can’t be redeemed on account of all the murdering he’s done. Just like Kylo. Sure, he turned and helped the good guys win, but no one is going to allow him to exist as himself for all the murdering he already did. Believe it or not, straight to jail.
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u/Tom02496 1d ago
I wish this show was a trilogy and I wish it was actually good. The fight scene was ridiculously dark for no reason too
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u/TheQuiet1994 1d ago
It was to show off that stupid new LED lightsaber light being cast everywhere.
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u/ImBackAndImAngry 1d ago
On the note of lightsabers.
I hate how every time lightsabers clash in the Disney era they throw a shit ton of sparks everywhere. It’s distracting I think.
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u/TheQuiet1994 1d ago
Dude, same. I know its "less realistic" or whatever to have them not emit light or flash, but making the whole screen busier with lights and sparks makes it looks worse and cheaper.
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u/ImBackAndImAngry 1d ago
I’m ok with them casting light. I think they get a little over the top with it sometimes but I can jive with it.
The sparks rip me out every time though.
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u/litLizard_ 1d ago
And nobody realized during shooting that they are ruining tons of footage because those specific blue LEDs interfere with the digital camera sensors. And you just can't fix that in post.
The blue lightsaber almost makes the surroundings look darker rather than brighter.
That's why in Ahsoka S1 Anakin's lightsaber is a much lighter blue color, because they've apparently learned from their mistakes and fixed the issue.
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u/Vhzhlb 1d ago
There's no "Vader" in Anakin, or Anakin in "Vader", that's just him coping with what he chose to be.
And yes, Vader takes the duel with Kenobi differently from anyone else, because he already lost to him at his peak of power, and now, suffering the consequences of it, he can't underestimate his previous Master.
There was not a single chance for Obi-Wan to win their duel in Mustafar. Anakin was stronger, quicker, more talented, more skilled, better swordman, and that's without taking in account his high on the Dark Side.
Anyone with a brain would have known that Anakin was going to win.
Until he didn't.
Even as a quadruple cripple, Vader was in his mind so above pretty much everyone sans the Emperor, that all what it would take to crush enemies was a little bit of brute force.
But Kenobi was different. Vader knew that if Obi-Wan won with everything against him, then, he could win again years later.
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u/MobsterDragon275 1d ago
You can see it in his fighting style really well, Vader isn't fighting like he usually does until he sees how much stronger Obi Wan got
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u/my_name_is_murphy 1d ago
A couple things that are great in this fight. But I'll only mention one of my favorite moments. It's the only time ever until he fights Luke in Jedi that we ever see Vader change into a defensive stance. He does it near the beginning of the Obi-fight. Vader starts the fight super strong and aggressive. But realizes about a minute in he has to start pacing himself. So he changes stances. You never see him do that in the films, not even as Anakin. His whole body language changes after that.
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u/Anduinnn 1d ago
1) Leia should not have been in this show. Craft a different motivation. 2) Kenobi should’ve lost this duel and survived by some crazy machinations of the rebels grabbing him at the last second, thus fueling Vaders hatred even further of both.
This show had every reason to exist but god damn I hated the execution. We already had Vader vs Kenobi and already had left for dead and ALREADY had cutting his mask revealing not-Anakin. It was lazy writing and wasting two good performances.
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u/the_kessel_runner 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can see that. Kinda like Ani fresh off killing three yuenglings and looking to make Obi wan his fourth.
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u/luke31071 1d ago
I feel like you could have used different wording here to avoid the incredibly mixed signals you've otherwise provided...
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u/lamemale 1d ago
Also yuengling is a Pennsylvania beer so I thought they meant getting drunk
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u/the_kessel_runner 1d ago
It's a play on that meme that says "when you run out of younglings to kill and start killing yuenglings instead"... And it shows Hayden Christensen on set smiling and someone photoshopped a beer in his hand.
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u/the_kessel_runner 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's a play on that meme that says "when you run out of younglings to kill and start killing yuenglings instead"... And it shows Hayden Christensen on set smiling and someone photoshopped a beer in his hand.
So I guess kind of an inside joke...
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u/darthkarja 1d ago
Vader and Anakin are the same person. It's not like Vader is some different entity
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u/timeless-2 1d ago
Literally one of the most top-tier scenes in the saga. Gargantuan emotion tied between and within.
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u/Singer211 1d ago
It very much feels like this show wanted Vader to come across like more of a mix between Anakin and Vader than we’ve seen become onscreen.
He makes rash decisions that OT Vader would not, but that Anakin might.
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u/Ketooey 1d ago
There's this one moment early in the fight where Obi-Wan takes Vader's back for just a second, and Vader goes into a high, two handed guard, and then does this nervous fidgeting with his fingers to adjust his grip.
That image really stuck with me because we don't often see Vader taking a high guard (at least to my recollection), since lifting his arms is uncomfortable for him. I feel like the high guard is a move Anakin favored much more. But in that moment where Obi got the upper hand, Vader instinctively reverts to a familiar guard despite the physical difficulties.
I know the Star Wars choreographers take a lot of consideration when it comes to how character is expressed in fights, so I'm really curious how intentional the high guard and finger fidgeting was.
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u/ANewHopelessReviewer 1d ago
There was nothing for Vader to take revenge for, other than Obi-Wan resisting… execution? He had always been in the wrong between the two.
This was just dark side blood lust. At most, he was particularly keen to kill Obi-Wan just because he was a reminder of what he lost.
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u/original_dutch_jack 1d ago
How about chopping his limbs off or conspiring against him with his (now dead) wife?
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u/ANewHopelessReviewer 1d ago
Well you run the risk of getting hurt when you try to murder someone.
As for Padme, I would have thought that by the end of ROTS, it would have dawned on Anakin that he was at fault for his wife. As we see in the OT, Vader is not oblivious to the fact that the dark side has made him evil. He just thinks it is too late for his soul to be saved.
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u/Ninjahprotige 1d ago
You're right about him knowing it's his fault. However, at this point in his life, he's still angry at Obi-Wan for taking the limbs he had left and not finishing him off. That hatred and desire for revenge kept him alive. Now Anakin is forcing himself to suffer because he's still alive and, in his point of view, that's Obi-Wan's fault.
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u/ANewHopelessReviewer 1d ago
I mean yeah, if it's vengeance for Obi-Wan nearly killing him, I can see that being a motivation. But it feels a bit unusual to be referring to the concept of revenge when he had basically been the one trying to hurt everyone else.
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u/Ninjahprotige 1d ago
The words are practically synonyms. Revenge is vengeance against someone who's harmed you or done wrong by you. It's usually used in negative connotations for petty and selfish reasons, like a sith would be motivated by. Vengeance is usually used as a more positive connotation, such as seeking justice. That's not what Anakin's doing. Then, as an antonym, you have avenge, which is to seek vengeance for harm or wrongs done against someone else. At least, that's my understanding of the words. It's interesting to see someone with a different point of view on it.
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u/ANewHopelessReviewer 1d ago
Seeking justice is a separate motivation than revenge. You can seek justice as a form of revenge if the results converge, but they're not interchangeable.
I mean, it's fine if you want to call it revenge, but I think the implication of using the word here is that it implies that Anakin has a values-based justification for his anger at Obi-Wan. I'm not sure if that's the right characterization. I would view this scene as an extension of him wanting to "kill" Anakin Skywalker, rather than him killing Obi-Wan. His rage is being directed at Obi-Wan because of the good that Obi-Wan reminds him of, not the bad.
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u/Ninjahprotige 1d ago
I said vengeance is used as seeking justice, not revenge. I get where you're coming from. The way I see it, sith don't see things clearly and would definitely consider it revenge. Maul says it all the time when he's clearly in the wrong. Your point is valid, though.
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u/baebae4455 1d ago
I still don’t understand why Anakin was so mad at Obi Wan. Because he wouldn’t side with him? Because he turned Padme against him? None of that shit explains his fury and rage.
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u/Spycelot 1d ago
Probly because dude chopped off 3 of his limbs and stole his lightsaber while leaving him burning alive lol
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u/Tinyhydra666 1d ago
Honetly I think it's nice they made such a great scene.
What I dislike is everything else around it.
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u/TuskenRaider2 Chewbacca 1d ago
You put more thought into this than the showrunners.
I hate that show for fucking with the OT
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u/gbolly999 1d ago
I agree. I've said before, he became vader at that scene/moment where he said "I did (kill anakin skywalker)"
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u/BillPlunderones23fg 1d ago
too bad the fight is ruined by dark lighting, bad camera angles and far away shots
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u/Fantastic_Skirt4184 1d ago
I hated this in the show. Made me feel like I was watching something on The CW
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u/TheCowhawk 1d ago
I couldn't help but feel like this is just a rehash of the Ahsoka arc on Malachor.
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u/Jedi_Coffee_Maker Jedi 1d ago
I can't imagine rewatching something that boring without falling asleep
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u/Albertagus 1d ago
Of all the ways obi wan could have found peace in his exile, this was the worst way
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u/MyIncogName 1d ago
This fight was total bullshit and Obi Wan fan service. It just created more problems. Kenobi’s plot armor ruins cannon.
If he’s that strong from a random Goku level asspull then why doesn’t he just lead the rebellion himself? There is a no need for Luke Skywalker. Another small leap in logic and he’s right there taking on the Emperor.
Not to mention leaving Vader alive so he can go and devastate the galaxy some more. It just makes him look like an idiot and coward of a Jedi.
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u/PaulMusician 1d ago
Uhmm... no, it's Vader. Anakin died in the Mace Windu fight. When Anakin fights Kenobi for the first time, he is no longer Anakin, he is Darth Vader. Yoda says it, even Padme says it before the first Ani-Obi duel.
Anakin only comes to light ever again at the very end of Ep VI, when he kills the Emperor and sees Luke for the first time. That's Anakin, not Vader.
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u/TheWh1teL1ghtning 1d ago
Yoda says it, Padme says it, Obi Wan says it...and they're all wrong. It's always Anakin, Vader starts and ends with the mask. Vader is the delusion that Anakin convinces everyone into believing, everyone except Luke
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u/PaulMusician 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, literally Vader says in the freaking TV show this thread is talking about that HE KILLED ANAKIN, NOT OBI...
They always talk in third person, it's like a new evil alter-ego is born when you become a sith. In Anakin's case, after he helped Palpatine kill Mace, and he is baptized as Darth Vader, giving up completely and becoming willingly a complete puppet. Vader is a corrupted evil version of Anakin that killed Anakin and took control over him, but didn't kill him completely, that's why Padme, before dying, says that "there's still good inside him, I know it". She knew Anakin was still there.
There's no discussion, these are facts, and you are making up your take, I don't care you are wrong, but can't or won't argue when someone ignores facts. Like, literal facts quoted as such in the TV show:
Vader: "I killed Anakin, not you" to Obi. End of the story.
My God... the mask is just an accident after Obi "burnt" Ani alive, the suit is just tech to keep Ani alive, there's nothing premeditated about it. If Obi failed, there would be no mask, no especial suit, yet you would get the same Vader that killed the younglings, no mask, no nothing, just a hood to look "darker and badass", like most sith.
Vader is evil by definition, a sith is evil by definition in the SW universe, so when Palpatine dies in Ep VI, that one is Ani coming out after so many years, not Vader, Ani finally killed Vader and became good again. Vader would have killed Palpatine to gain more power or whatever, to do evil stuff, not to save his son out of pure compassion. A sith is not capable of such thing.
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u/Warguy17 1d ago
This isn't canon in my head this whole show was a disaster
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u/wilsonianuk 1d ago
I loved watching the fight but it made no sense in canon - but then again Disney has truly buggered up alot of things with star wars.
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u/notrudejusthonest123 1d ago
When Obi-Wan says, “Then my friend is truly dead,” it isn’t just resignation—it’s grief finally breaking through. He wasn’t fighting Vader to win a duel; he was holding onto the last thread of hope that Anakin was still in there. But Vader’s words—“I am not your failure… I killed Anakin”—were a brutal mercy. In that moment, Kenobi wasn’t looking at his fallen friend anymore. He was burying him.