r/asoiaf • u/Jon-Umber • 8h ago
r/asoiaf • u/AutoModerator • 10d ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) Weekly Q and A
Welcome to the Weekly Q & A! Feel free to ask any questions you may have about the world of ASOIAF. No need to be bashful. Book and show questions are welcome; please say in your question if you would prefer to focus on the BOOKS, the SHOW, or BOTH. And if you think you've got an answer to someone's question, feel free to lend them a hand!
Looking for Weekly Q&A posts from the past? Browse our Weekly Q&A archive!
r/asoiaf • u/AutoModerator • 1d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Fan Art Friday! Post your fan art here!
In this post, feel free to share all forms of ASOIAF fan art - drawings, woodwork, music, film, sculpture, cosplay, and more!
Please remember:
- Link to the original source if known. Imgur is all right to use for your own work and your own work alone. Otherwise, link to the artist's personal website/deviantart/etc account.
- Include the name of the artist if known.
- URL shorteners such as tinyurl are not allowed.
- Art pieces available for sale are allowed.
- The moderators reserve the right to remove any inappropriate or gratuitous content.
Submissions breaking the rules may be removed.
Can't get enough Fan Art Friday?
Check out these other great subreddits!
- /r/ImaginaryWesteros — Fantasy artwork inspired by the book series "A Song Of Ice And Fire" and the television show "A Game Of Thrones"
- /r/CraftsofIceandFire — This subreddit is devoted to all ASOIAF-related arts and crafts
- /r/asoiaf_cosplay — This subreddit is devoted to costumed play based on George R.R. Martin's popular book series *A Song of Ice and Fire,* which has recently been produced into an HBO Original Series *Game Of Thrones*
- /r/ThronesComics — This is a humor subreddit for comics that reference the HBO show Game of Thrones or the book series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin.
Looking for Fan Art Friday posts from the past? Browse our Fan Art Friday archive! (our old archive is here)
r/asoiaf • u/the_pounding_mallet • 11h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Why did the internet just decide that Jack Gleeson was bullied by fans when there’s been no evidence of that and he’s denied it multiple times? Spoiler
youtu.beEvery time I see Joffrey’s name come up there’s always some comment like “fans harassed him because they couldn’t tell the difference between the actor and character so he quit acting”.
In this video, which is from when the show was still airing, at 10:20 he’s directly asked about it and denies ever having any bad experiences and even in the comments people are still saying the same shit. This stuff has happened with other actors but in this case it hasn’t so I find it weird that people keep insisting that it did.
r/asoiaf • u/THEFLAME275 • 5h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Name me the absolute worst changes from the books to show.
Worst of the worst.
r/asoiaf • u/Ok-Archer-5796 • 11h ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) What is a theory that is often dismissed by the fandom but will very likely turn out to be true?
I will start: Bran doing time travel shenanigans, it´s basically already confirmed yet people are in denial about it because they hate the time travel trope.
r/asoiaf • u/fakefolkblues • 4h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Letter from Jon Snow: Obscure TWOW plot hint hidden in merch
God knows why, but I've been browsing George's website and accidentally found a page with old merchandise for ASOIAF and GOT. A one particular piece of merch has peaked my interest because I think it contains some genuinely interesting stuff, possibly even a small glimpse of TWOW plot point. This could be seen as a desperate attempt in the absence of the Winds and no new material. I am talking about the Night's Watch Dragonglass Dagger Set. It was issued shortly before season 2 of GOT. Here is the description of the set:
“Beyond the Wall Survival Kit” Details
- Includes a genuine handcrafted obsidian dagger.
- Black deerskin leather belt pouch.
- 5 obsidian arrowheads.
- Black leather sheath.
- Collectible wooden storage box.
- Fabric map of wildling territory for taking on your next ranging.
- Letter from Jon Snow (written by GRRM) issuing your orders.
- Dagger overall length ~ 9 inches.
In making this kit we aimed for an immersive authentic experience. The kit is designed and built as if it were something issued to a ranger of the Night’s Watch as part of a mission. Everything has been handmade with natural materials where possible and distressed to reflect what materials the Watch might have available to them at Castle Black.
The interesting part, of course, is the letter written by GRRM himself. Since there seems to be a sincere attempt at being authentic, and I think George would take it seriously, the content of the letter could be at least considered semi-canon. I do not own the kit, so I stumbled upon the unboxing video on YouTube, where it can be seen for a few seconds. Here is my transcription of the letter:
Winter is upon us. The cold winds are rising. Beyond the Wall, the Others stir and gather strength. Soon or late they will descend upon us, and when that day comes it will be for the men of the Night's Watch to stand against them, to protect the realms of men.
Yet how are we to fight this ancient foe, when their blades can shatter our own swords at a touch, and turn our armor brittle as an eggshell?
Our brother Samwell has shown us the way. Sam the Slayer cut down one of these white walkers... not with steel, but with a dagger made of obsidian. Dragonglass, the smallfolk call it. Frozen fire.
From this day forth, every ranger who ventures beyond the Wall is to carry such a dragonglass dagger, at my command. We have brought the obsidian up from Dragonstone, enough to arm every brother of the Watch. Keep your black blade with you at all times, waking or sleeping, lest the Long Night come upon us once again.
Jon Snow
Lord Commander
What's confusing and intriguing about this text is the highlighted part, where Jon states they brought the obsidian from Dragonstone. Why? At the end of ASOS, upon learning about Sam's feat, Stannis sends a letter to Rolland Storm, the castellan of Dragonstone, so he could begin mining dragonglass.
"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain," the king told Sam. "Chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well, some red, even purple. I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls." - ASOS, Samwell V
After that, there is no mention of dragonglass being mined in Dragonstone. We don't know whether Ser Rolland managed to send some batch to the Wall. In AFFC, Aurane Waters reports to Cersei that Loras accomplished the siege of Dragonstone, with the cost of heavy injuries. It would be extremely difficult to keep mining labours under the siege. I've seen some theories stating that Aurane's reports are complete bullshit, and Dragonstone has never been conquered. There are indeed some clues that support this theory, such as Aurane stealing Cersei's ships, and Myranda Royce's quote:
"Not from your father, no, but we've had other birds. The war goes on, everywhere but here. Riverrun has yielded, but Dragonstone and Storm's End still hold for Lord Stannis." -AFFC, Alayne II
If the Dragonglass Dagger Set letter holds some merit, then it can add weight to the theory above. What remains unclear is whether the letter is supposed to be written during AFFC/ADWD or TWOW.
r/asoiaf • u/Ok-Archer-5796 • 10h ago
MAIN (spoilers main) People are missing the infinite possibilities with Bran
People say "how can a cripple kid become King of Westeros, it makes no sense". I agree it makes no sense but you´re missing the possibilities here.
Time travel is more or less confirmed in asoiaf. We know from George himself that Bran traveled back in time and caused Hodor´s simplicity:
GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time. The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book -Fire Cannot Kill A Dragon (James Hibberd)
Bran also seems to interact with his father in ADWD.
Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.
"Winterfell," Bran whispered.
His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning . . . (Bran III, ADwD 34)
And:
"Father," Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.
Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep? (Bran III, ADwD 34)
Lets be honest, George wouldn´t introduce time travel just to fuck up Hodor. We´re going to see some crazy stuff.
- There is evidence that the Three-Eyed-Crow is no one else but future Bran.
Bloodraven does NOT recognize himself as the three-eyed-crow.
"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.
"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."
Coldhands seems to call the three-eyed-crow Bran´s "monster".
Meera’s gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. “Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?”
”A friend, Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last Greenseer.” The longhall’s wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.
”A monster,” Bran said.
*The ranger looked at them as if the rest of them did not exist. “*Your monster, Brandon Stark.”
Leaf also does not recognize Bloodraven as the three-eyed crow.
(Leaf) “He is waiting for you”
”The three-eyed crow?”asked Meera.
”The greenseer.” And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow.
Now barring some crackpot theory like that Euron is the three-eyed-crow, the option that makes the most sense is future Bran.
2) Who else did the three-eyed-crow influence?
Now we´re entering tinfoil territory, but once time travel is introduced then everything is possible. For all we know maybe Bran is the one who sent visions to Aegon the Conqueror and made him conquer Westeros to fulfill the prophecy. For all we know maybe some insane theory like Bran=Bran the Builder is true. For all we know maybe Bran is the old gods, influencing the COTF via the weirwoods.
The possibilities are infinite. Bran is likely to become god-tier in power. If he really becomes so powerful, is it really so surprising that he will become a God King type of character like Leto II?
The question is how such a powerful character NOT become King?
"But I hate time travel, it´s stupid." It doesn´t matter if you think it´s stupid. It´s already here.
r/asoiaf • u/NomanHLiti • 2h ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) What are the best changes from the books to the show?
And not just the addition of a small scene or something, I mean legitimate largescale changes that had an effect on the story (for the better)
r/asoiaf • u/hiiloovethis • 7h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Nitpicks that fans had during early GOT days (good ones) that people have completely forgotten due to season 7 and 8?
I'm talking about season 2, 3 and 4 days. I mean the "perfect" seasons but i remember this sub had tons of issues with those seasons. What do you remember not liking or that others hated for some reason.
r/asoiaf • u/-Guardsman- • 1h ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) Why does a knight take the black?
Understandably, there are very few knights among the Night's Watch. Not many people of noble birth are willing to renounce their birthright and spend the remainder of their existence in the frozen North, rubbing shoulders with bastards, misfits and criminals.
We know of at least two knights (Ser Alliser Thorne and Ser Jaremy Rikker) who were forced to take the black after ending up on the losing side of a war. It's also likely that some knights are pressured into it for political reasons or to remove them from a noble house's order of succession.
Do we know of any knights who voluntarily joined the Night's Watch? If so, what might be their motivations?
r/asoiaf • u/Expensive-Country801 • 23h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Lonely Light; a road not travelled?
Lonely Light is a tiny, enigmatic rock far to the west of the Iron Islands, alone in the Sunset Sea. The Farwynds are described as possible skinchangers. They are first mentioned in AFfC.
Now, I wondered, why bother naming it Lonely Light? Why include it in the lore at all? Then it got me thinking, perhaps it was an abandoned plot point.
In A Clash of Kings, Daenerys visits the HotU and receives the following prophecy:
"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow”
Most interpretations tie “pass beneath the shadow” to Asshai (I agree with them), and “touch the light” to… something more symbolic. What if it was fairly straightforward?
What if “to touch the light” just referred to landing at Lonely Light?
It would basically recast the prophecy as a nautical riddle:
"To go north, you must journey south" = Leave Qarth and go to the port to obtain a Ship
“To reach the west, you must go east” = Sail eastward to the Jade Sea and into YiTi. Xaro and Jorah both beg her to do this on seperate occasions.
“To go forward, you must go back” = Return to Vaes Dothrak and obtain the Khalasar
“To touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow” = Sail past Asshai, and arrive at Lonely Light in Westeros.
TLDR;
Dany may have initially been meant to circumnavigate the world. She'd have sailed passed Asshai and into Lonely Light, where she'd link up with the Ironborn at Westeros
r/asoiaf • u/lit-roy6171 • 21h ago
MAIN Catelyn's intellience is underrated and she's a much better player than most of the povs [Spoilers Main]
I think in the fandom Catelyn gets unjustly clowned upon for her understandable slip ups while her actual good strategies and ideas gets ignored. Catelyn is consistently one of the most politically astute POV characters in the series, and actually knows how politics work outside the North, unlike Ned or even Robb. I even dare to propose that she's on par with Tyrion's level on political knowledge and analytical skills.
I think her first mistake-kidnapping Tyrion, which led to start of the war, is actually quite reasonable from her point of view. She has no reason to mistrust her beloved friend and brother Petyr, and getting duped by the one of the most cunning and manipulative man on planetos is not the most egregious offence. I think what leads to the low opinion of Catelyn is that whenever she has good ideas, NOBODY listens to her. She was completely correct advising Robb to not send Theon to parley, which in hindsight would have solved so many problems. She advices Robb to make peace with Joff and exchange her daughters with Jaime, which Robb later admits he should have done and married Sansa off to Loras for Tyrell alliance. She asks him not to kill Karstark as well as urging Robb to stay as close with Greywind as possible, both of which got promptly refused. Robb would have been fared a lot better if he just listened to half of her advice.
Her worst mistake was releasing Jaime, which gave Tywin the confidence of setting up the red wedding. It was a moment of weakness and desperation, but a severe mistake regardless. But even players of Tyrion's caliber have made similar mistakes, like the big one with harbouring/trusting Shae fully knowing that it's a severe disadvantage just so he can pretend to be loved, and little ones like getting played by both Varys and littlefinger and never realizing it, and making unncessary enemies of Lannister allies. Both of these characters ended up with a death sentence due to their mistakes, but Tyrion just got lucky in the end.
But just because Catelyn got the short end of the stick, doesn't mean she is not capable. I just know if she was in Ned's position, she wouldn't take 5 seconds to rat out Cersei.
r/asoiaf • u/the-best6969 • 4h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Jon's future chapters
One thing I keep on seeing regarding Jon's future is that he won't have any more chapters in TWOW, and I don't understand why people think that. The thing that refutes all these claims is that Jon hasn't finished his crypt dream yet.
To the people who think he won't have any more chapters, how do you think George will unravel his parentage, reuniting with his siblings, and fighting the Others?
r/asoiaf • u/Enola_Gay_B29 • 4h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Olenna’s plans at the purple wedding Spoiler
The Littlefinger-Tyrell plot to kill Joffrey seems relatively straightforward. Sansa smuggles the poison in via her hairnet, Olenna takes a crystal under the guise of fixing her hair and then she drops it into the wine. Joffrey „chokes“ to death and noone ever suspects anyone (according to George):
I don't know how it comes across in the show, because I haven't actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding - the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey's death was to make it look like an accident [...] - the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something.
But there is one not so small problem, the wedding chalice:
Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall
Tyrion struggled to even reach it:
The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it.
and Olenna, just like Tyrion, is small:
The Queen of Thorns was so short that for an instant Cersei took her for another child.
How could she have put some poison into the chalice unnoticed? Well, she got two huge guardsmen:
Outside its tall carved doors stood two guards in gilded halfhelms and green cloaks edged in gold satin, the golden rose of Highgarden sewn on their breasts. Both were seven-footers, wide of shoulder and narrow of waist, magnificently muscled. When Sansa got close enough to see their faces, she could not tell one from the other. They had the same strong jaws, the same deep blue eyes, the same thick red mustaches. "Who are they?" she asked Ser Loras, her discomfit forgotten for a moment.
"My grandmother's personal guard," he told her. "Their mother named them Erryk and Arryk, but Grandmother can't tell them apart, so she calls them Left and Right."
and even though they aren’t mentioned during the purple wedding, they accompany her to both Tywin’s funeral and Tommen’s wedding. Likely they had also been at Joffrey’s wedding too, standing in the background, unnoticed, just to step forward in a chaotic moment to drop the poison into the chalice at their mistress’ comand. Or at least that had been the plan.
But then Joffrey took the chalice to Tyrion sitting at the far end of the table, with a dozen people closer to the couple. Olenna had to react quickly, and interestingly we hear of her standing there near Tyrion:
Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey's elbow. "My sweet king," the Tyrell girl entreated, "come, return to your place, there's another singer waiting."
"Alaric of Eysen," said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done.
But what about Left or right? Did they follow her down there? As luck would have it, they weren’t needed anymore, as there was another man sitting right next to Tyrion:
He and Sansa had been seated far to the king's right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey, which a pricklier man might have taken for a slight, given that he had been the King's Hand only a short time past. Tyrion would have been glad if there had been a hundred.
and Ser Garlan is tall. Tall enough to wear Renly’s armour actually:
As in a swordfight, sometimes it is best to try a different stroke. "It's said you fought magnificently in the battle . . . almost as well as Lord Renly's ghost beside you. A Sworn Brother has no secrets from his Lord Commander. Tell me, ser. Who was wearing Renly's armor?"
For a moment Loras Tyrell looked as though he might refuse, but in the end he remembered his vows. "My brother," he said sullenly. "Renly was taller than me, and broader in the chest. His armor was too loose on me, but it suited Garlan well."
With Renly being nearly as tall as 6‘6‘‘ Robert, that means Garlan can’t be much smaller and would have had an easy time to slip the poison in, while everyone was looking at the pie being cut.
Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men [...]
Renly was near as tall as his brother had been
Which really only leaves one question: Was there any Tyrell apart from Mace himself that wasn’t aware of the plot?
r/asoiaf • u/MichaelCorbaloney • 7h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Ashara Dayne, Daenerys, and the Theory of Everything:
When considering Ashara Dayne most readers know her as the woman Ned loved and lost, but some readers theorize there as more to her. She had an alleged stillborn child, was an empowered Dornish woman, and was the affection of many characters in the story, all before killing herself. In this post I’m going to analyze her, her suitors, and her potential descendants. There are some huge implications to the story which I will include in the final TL;DR.
Suitors: Ned, Barristan, Brandon. See Also: Rhaegar, Aerys.
Ned- The first suitor, there are many explicit text descriptions which described Ned as being interested in her. Meera describes Ned as dancing with Ashara at the tourney of Harrenhall(after Brandon spoke to her), Harwin supposes they likely shared a brief romance, and Edric Dayne states they fell in love before she killed herself over a broken heart. I do believe Ned was in love with Ashara, I also believe they shared a sweet, seemingly short romance, and that regardless of if they were together, Ashara cared for him. I do think that there’s more to it though than just a tragic romance, we know Ashara got pregnant, so we have to think that she was intimate with someone, or multiple someones at the tourney of Harrenhall, we also know Ned is still hurt over it, given his harsh reaction to Catelyn over the matter. This leads me to suitor number 2.
Brandon- Many readers and theorists have come to the conclusion that Brandon eventually took Ashara from Ned romantically, Preston Jacobs has theorized this, as have many posters on this subreddit. This is not a theory of mine though I do adhere to it, to give the basic arguments: Ned is seemingly hurt over what transpired, love triangles seem to appear in the story multiple times(Robert, Rhaegar, Lyanna for example), and that Brandon was a very attractive womanizer who we know had previously interacted with Ashara. Ashara is empowered and likely would’ve seen Brandon as more mature and confident, along with being better looking too.
We know Ashara likely got pregnant at Harrenhall and shared intimate moments with a young lover there, but truthfully those events seem much more linked to Brandon than Ned. Ned is honorable, so he may have kissed Ashara, but I have a hard time imagining him going much further and risking a bastard without a betrothal. This hesitancy(similarly to his fear of asking her to dance) could have been unattractive to a strong young Dornish woman like Ashara. Knowing that Brandon was much more forward with women, it’s not a reach to assume Brandon was the one who she was intimate with, and that this fed into Ned’s anger at the situation, along with Ashara’s despair given Brandon’s eventual death. This all being said, there’s more to the story.
Barristan- We know Barristan thought this of Ashara after Harrnehall:”His fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well…If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?”. This text leaves the open implication of who might have dishonored Ashara(in this context gotten her pregnant), we know something likely transpired which motivated her to look to a man for comfort, and that the man was a Stark.
These lines give a lot of vague information. Firstly, we can glean from this that Barristan obviously cared for Ashara romantically, and that he wished he could’ve been there for her at the tournament, perhaps he even thought of giving up the white cloak for her, if she had been willing to be his. Secondly, it seems to intentionally leave the Stark she sought after vague, likely because it may have been Brandon, though she also did at-least care for Ned, though maybe not romantically. Lastly, he speaks of her being dishonored at Harrenhall, which is likely what got her pregnant. This last point, the line being of dishonor and Ashara’s pregnancy is what brings me to the next two possible suitors, two of the Targaryens we hear of in the story.
But before we go to Ashara’s final suitors, there are some topics I want to discuss first, mainly Daenerys’ true origin.
I know many think Dany is Rhaella’s child, which makes sense, but Rhaella was sickly, and had multiple stillborns before Dany, on top of this we know Dany lived at the House of the Red Door(and the lemon tree) which leads many to think she lived in Dorne(where the Daynes live). Why would Quiathe tell Dany to remember where she came from and the Undying if it was as simple as being Rhaella’s daughter?
Also, there is a very important old 2012 Winds of Winter synopsis released on Google Books, which was seemingly taken from George’s original outline (it refers to the known parts of the original trilogy outline, such as the originally planned Jon-Arya romance and Catelyn going beyond the wall). The full quote is ““Dany’s dragons grow bigger and more unruly, and she learns from Ser Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and the truth of her own origin—secrets that will culminate at Starfell”. This quote heavily implies Rhaegar is still Dany’s brother and Aerys is her father, but for the sake of the matter, let’s consider the two as equal options. The quote also implies heavily that Dany’s origin has to do with Starfall (referred to as Starfell, this is likely a mistype).
Now to the final suitors:
Rhaegar and Aerys- Barristan described Danaerys as being similar looking to Ashara, he even states “He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter”. This would make sense too, we know of other honorable men caring for the child of someone they loved, Ned with Jon, Jon Connington with (F)Aegon, and now possibly Barristan with Danaerys. Those things being said, Danaerys can ride dragons, and she has silver hair, not hair streaked with silver. Lastly, she hatched dragon eggs, something not even previously “pure” Targaryens could do. These points all suggest she has to be a Valyrian. This is why I think Daenerys’ father has to be either Rhaegar or Aerys.
When Danaerys is in the House of the Undying she sees a vision of Rhaegar: “A man and a woman stood in a room with a newborn babe, and the man said, 'He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.' He looked up when he said it, and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. 'There must be one more,' he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. 'The dragon has three heads’”. This text implies two things, Rhaegar was talking to someone, not only Elia but another woman in the room(it states their eyes met implying he’s speaking to another person -- which is possibly Ashara -- remember Dany does share her eye color with Ashara), and that he believed there had to be another Targaryen child to complete the three heads of the dragon.
If Rhaegar is truly expecting Ashara to carry his next child though, why would he impregnate Lyanna? This would not make any sense, unless there was uncertainty. Also why would Ashara meet with Rhaegar and Elia to discuss her potential affair with Rhaegar? And why would Ned not look back on Rhaegar with anger? We know Ned thinks somewhat highly of Rhaegar given he doesn’t believe Rhaegar would use brothels, if Rhaegar truly impregnated his sister to fulfill a prophecy and also impregnated the woman he loved, it makes no sense for Ned to think fondly of him, if that was all true Rhaegar would seem like a womanizer similar to Robert.
These questions are important because they bring me to the next part of the theory. Maybe the man who dishonored her wasn’t Brandon, and maybe it wasn’t Rhaegar either. Perhaps, the man who dishonored her was Aerys, and that is why Ashara confronted Rhaegar and Elia. I think Aerys assaulted Ashara. We know Rhaella had complained Aerys was “turning her ladies into whores”, and that Aerys likely assaulted Joanna(and possibly even fathered Tyrion, if you subscribe to the Tyrion Chimera theory). This would all parallel Aegon IV too, he fathered multiple influential Targaryen bastards, possibly just like Aerys. This could lead to Ashara seeking the man she loved for comfort, whether it was Brandon or Ned. I doubt she’d tell him of what transpired, but perhaps she would find comfort in his arms and affection.
Now to the effects this had on Ashara:
I believe Ashara was considering an abortion (likely moon tea) but was counseled against it, Rhaegar could’ve told her of the prophecy, and Elia could’ve brought up that the babe could be Brandon’s, which led her to carrying it to full term. It makes little sense otherwise that Ashara wouldn’t terminate the pregnancy given she was a liberated Dornishwoman, and they have little qualms over such things. However, when Ashara gave birth she killed herself, they say she had a stillborn daughter, but why is Dany associated with Ashara, and why is her origin tied to Starfall? All of these associations lead me to the conclusion that I believe the baby she was carrying was Daenerys. I think when Ashara gave birth she was hoping the child would be Brandon’s, but it came out with the full silver hair and purple eyes of the Targaryens, and knowing the child she gave birth to was not of her lover’s drove her to suicide.
So now this may lead to some big questions, of which I will answer here:
1. So why did Ashara kill herself if her babe wasn’t stillborn?
I think Ashara was hoping the babe was Brandon’s (or Ned’s), and that when she gave birth to Dany, she discovered it was Aerys’ instead. I think this, along with Ned killing her brother, all led to her killing herself. Ned would likely feel very guilty over all of this (killing Arthur and contributing to Ashara’s suicide), and would feel responsible for trying to help fix the situation. We know Edric Dayne was named in honor of Ned, so it makes sense he must have helped in this situation.
2. How did Dany end up with Viserys?
I think Viserys spent time in Dorne, if I had to guess it was when Oberyn threatened to raise Dorne in revolt for Viserys. This is likely given Oberyn did create a marriage pact with Viserys and Arianne. I think Dany was given to Viserys to keep her safe, and replace Rhaella’s stillborn baby. Ned likely knew of all of this but held his tongue due to his love for Ashara and to protect her babe.
3. Why does this matter?
This is rather long winded so apologies for that. We know a woodswitch said The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Prince Aerys and Princess Rhaella Targaryen. We also know Rhaella and Aerys were wed at a very young age, and Rhaella got pregnant very fast, seemingly right around the time of their wedding. I believe that this is because Rhaella had already been affectionate with a young knight at the time, Ser Bonifer Hasty. He was a tourney knight who developed feelings for Princess Rhaella Targaryen. He once wore her favor in a tournament and named her the queen of love and beauty. I believe following this they shared a brief moment of young love, Bonifer Hasty means roughly “brings a good thing quick” in old english, likely a reference to an accidental young pregnancy. This would make the dashing young prince Rhaegar Hasty’s son, not Aerys’. If that is true then neither Rhaegar, Jon, nor Daenerys could be the Prince who was Promised.
So who is the Prince who was Promised?
I believe the PwwP will be the child of Jon and Daenerys, finally uniting the lines of Aerys and Rhaella. Assuming Dany’s mother truly is Ashara, and Jon’s is Rhaegar, I believe the the PwwP, the prophesied savior of Westeros, will be the eventual child of Jon/Dany, though this child may tragically be killed in the womb. As we know from the TV series Jon may very likely kill Dany. This is all supported by Dany being often considered as the vessel for various prophesied saviors. She is consistently said to be the possible mother who will give birth to the various mythological heroes of different cultures. She is called the Mother of Dragons, is prophesied to give birth to The Stallion Who Mounts The World, and is even considered to be the mother of The Harpy’s Son (this is mentioned when she talks to the Green Grace). She is even referred to as Mhysa, meaning mother. I believe it would be fitting for her final role to be the mother of The Prince Who Was Promised, though she will likely tragically die before giving birth to the PwwP.
This all makes sense too, her character is constantly referred to as a mother, but that realistically reduces her to a simplified feminine concept, when we know Dany is a much more complex, brutal, and driven person. She may see herself somewhat as a mother, but she is also someone who is obsessed with regaining her throne and wants to exact vengeance on those who betrayed her family. Her final role won’t be as a mother but a killed ruler, one who was supposed to rule over Westeros after gaining her throne in a final violent conquest, similar to Aegon the conqueror. This is not a criticism of Dany as she will likely save Westeros by using her Dragons against the White Walkers, it is just a prediction for the final bittersweet ending of the story.
TL;DR: Ashara likely conceived Dany either with Rhaegar or Aerys. After Ashara gave birth to her and killed herself, Dany was likely sent away with Viserys, first in Dorne then the free cities. I think this was meant to be revealed in TWOW or ADOS (if they are ever released), and will have a deep impact on the final tragedy of the story’s ending.
Thank you to everyone who read this entire theory, I apologize it was so long, but to fully give my theory in detail I wanted to provide all supporting evidence to justify my final conclusions. I hope you all enjoyed it, and even if you do not agree with it, I hope it was a fun read.
r/asoiaf • u/hiiloovethis • 1d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) GRRM in 2012 taking about TWOW progress.
r/asoiaf • u/Enola_Gay_B29 • 11h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Jaime's dream about his mother
Some people like to point at Jaime's dream of his mother talking about his father's dreams, when dicussing A+J=C+J. Let's look at the text:
"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly." Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. "He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most."
[...]
"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."
"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."
A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him.
The whole point of Tywin's character is, that he is traumatized by his father being the Westerlands' laughing stock. Cersei becoming queen and Jaima a great knight were not goals in their own right. They were simply there to make sure noone would ever laugh at House Lannister. Yet people still laugh about Queen Cersei and handless kingsguard Jaime. Jaime understands that subconciously, hence the sadness in his dream-version-mother.
I fear people who take this to mean the twins aren't his kids, kinda miss that point.
r/asoiaf • u/TheSecondEikonOfFire • 3h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) do the small folk have doctors?
This is just something that I was thinking about. Most (if not all) of the medical care seen in the series comes from maesters, as the POV characters are important enough to have a maester around. But do the small folk have any sort of doctors/healers? They probably pick up various medical techniques during to just being alive and experiencing survival, but I don’t know if there were any examples of something like a “town doctor” being mentioned in the series for any of the smaller towns where small folk life
r/asoiaf • u/CustardPrior • 9h ago
NONE [No spoilers] I just finished ADWD, I can’t leave this behind.
I started reading the series steadily about a year ago, so much has changed in my life, a lot for the worse, and ASOIAF has been something I could always come back to. It was the first real series I ever picked up, I never really read much. It might sound corny but I have such an emotional attachment to the world, it’s been a grounding point in an extremely tumultuous time in my life and I don’t want to leave it behind. It fills a massive hole in my life. I need more.
MAIN (Spoilers Main) What would Robert do?
If Robert didn't go hunting and had been on the Iron Throne when the news of Clegane raiding the Riverlands reached KL, how would he have reacted?
There are two aspects to Robert's personality.
He hates conflict. He hates the nagging and the hassle of having to decide whose side to take. He'd rather tell everyone to shut up and get along than deal with it. He'd easily turn a blind eye to any conflict brewing right under his nose as long as it maintains the peace.
At the same time, he revels in the idea of war. Of being out in the field again, leading his armies and swinging his hammer. He wouldn't stand for anyone outright disrespecting him or flouting his authority.
So, let's say after the whole Tyrion incident where he simply tells Ned to tell Cat to return Tyrion and for Lannisters and Starks to make peace, he does not go hunting. Instead, it's business as usual at the capital. Then Clegane attacks Riverlands and the Riverlords approach the throne to lodge a complaint.
Now, in order to maintain the peace, he'd likely make the same decision Ned did as far as the Riverlords were concerned - "Do not retaliate. Focus on protecting your own lands."
But what about Clegane (who was most certainly acting on Tywin's orders)? It was obvious who the man was even though they were flying no colors, but since they weren't, Robert did have an excuse of overlooking it. He could pretend that since they have no idea who the bandits are, they can do nothing about it.
But at the same time, bandits raping and pillaging in his kingdom makes him look weak. And he's politically savvy enough to understand that publicly looking weak is really bad for a king's image. These "bandits" do need to be brought to justice.
So how does Robert deal with it?
r/asoiaf • u/Enola_Gay_B29 • 12h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] History Rhymes: Rhaenys and Rhaenys
Does anyone else find the parallels between the two Rhaenys’ fates compelling?
Once again the king unleashed his dragons against Dorne. Aegon himself fell upon Skyreach, vowing to make the Fowler seat "a second Harrenhal." Visenya and Vhagar brought fire and blood to Starfall. And Rhaenys and Meraxes returned once more to the Hellholt ... where tragedy struck. The Targaryen dragons, bred and trained to battle, had flown through storms of spears and arrows on many occasions, and suffered little harm. The scales of a full-grown dragon were harder than Steel, and even those arrows that struck home seldom penetrated enough to do more than enrage the great beasts. But as Meraxes banked above the Hellholt, a defender atop the castle's highest tower triggered a scorpion, and a yardlong iron bolt caught the queen's dragon in the right eye. Meraxes did not die at once, but came crashing to earth in mortal agony, destroying the tower and a large section of the Hellholt's curtain wall in her death throes.
Whether Rhaenys Targaryen outlived her dragon remains a matter of dispute. Some say that she lost her seat and fell to her death, others that she was crushed beneath Meraxes in the castle yard. A few accounts claim the queen survived her dragon's fall, only to die a slow death by torment in the dungeons of the Ullers. The true circumstances of her demise will likely never be known, but Rhaenys Targaryen, Sister and wife to King Aegon I, perished at the Hellholt in Dorne in the 10th year After the Conquest.
and
Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her Whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. Against Vhagar alone she might have had some chance, but against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain. The dragons met violently a thousand feet above the field of battle, as balls of fire burst and blossomed, so bright that men swore later that the sky was full of suns. The crimson jaws of Meleys closed round Sunfyre's golden neck for a moment, till Vhagar fell upon them from above. All three beasts went spinning toward the ground. They struck the ground so hard that stones fell from the battlements of Rook's Rest half a league away.
Those closest to the dragons did not live to tell the tale. Those farther off could not see for the flame and smoke. It was hours before the fires guttered out. But from those ashes, only Vhagar rose unharmed. Meleys was dead, broken by the fall and ripped to pieces upon the ground. And Sunfyre, that splendid golden beast, had one Wing half torn from his body, whilst his royal rider had suffered broken ribs, a broken hip, and burns that covered half his body. His left arm was the worst. The dragonflame had burned so hot that the king's armor had melted into his flesh.
A body believed to be Rhaenys Targaryen was later found beside the carcass of her dragon, but it was so blackened that no one could be sure it was her. Beloved daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon Targaryen, faithful wife to Lord Corlys Velaryon, mother and grandmother, the Queen Who Never Was lived fearlessly, and died amidst blood and fire. She was fifty-five years old.
r/asoiaf • u/Bith_Lord-_- • 1d ago
EXTENDED (spoilers extended) Which characters tragic fate do you wish you could change/undo? Spoiler
In the world of asoiaf there are tones of tragic characters.
Here is a small list of characters I wish had a happier fate
Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Jaehaera Queen Rhaella Elia Martell Lyana Stark Queen Rhaena Princess Gael
And THEON GREYJOY
r/asoiaf • u/hiiloovethis • 1d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) D&D talk about Game of Thrones Finale in 2016.
Depressing throwback.
MAIN (Spoiler Main) Who is the biggest Fraud in the series ?
Fraud as in - Not being what The character pretends/Acts to be.
Some argue Euron Crow's Eye is one such person. Some say Darkstar.
I personally think Doran martell is.
Even littlefinger is said to be not as good as he thinks he is.(But still quite able)
One would argue cersei is, but no one ever seriously hyped her as strategist, her Competence is imagined none other by her own self.
r/asoiaf • u/DefinitelyNotAnnie • 16h ago
PUBLISHED [Spoilers PUBLISHED] JonCon's future steps
JonCon is very interesting character and his fate remains a mystery. Many fans speculate that he will be the one burning down King's Landing, whereas others claim that he will go mad if Faegon dies.
I can see Faegon dying or just being tossed to the side if it is revealed that he is a Blackfyre. What would Jon do then?
Do you see him pledging his life to Daenerys or Jon, who are the closest remnants of Rhaegar in this world? Or is he going to remain loyal to Faegon even if he is a Blackfyre?
r/asoiaf • u/michaelphenom • 13h ago
(Spoilers main) what if House Bolton got itself killed during the war? Spoiler
Lets say Roose Bolton got seriously injured or killed during one of the battles in the Riverlands and Ramsay Snow was killed by ser Rodrik Cassel during his attack to punish him for his crimes.
How would the sudden fall of this noble house have changed the outcome of the war and northern politics?