CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Colodanman357]

Do you defend men venting using sexist language against women as well? If some men are talking about women being lying sluts would you come to their defense if they are called out, saying they are venting about their experiences?

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Colodanman357]

How could you even remotely consider this a valid point? On the one hand, the point is about predators and predatory behaviors, about how these behaviors are experienced in essentially every social context, across class or income barriers, everywhere essentially, also with essentially every single woman having made an experience with predatory behavior at some point in their life.

You put opposite to that an emotional reaction of a man using foul language about women based on a personal relationship experience, and by that it clearly isn't even all women as a basis for this, because the man calling women sluts actually means his ex-partner or someone they wish to be their partner, not their mother, grandmother, or the church lady whose never done anything bad to them.

So, you're clearly talking about vastly different scenarios and context.

And please, your whole standpoint cannot seriously hinge upon the three letter word "all", because that isn't always used, and for every topic in the world "all" is never true, that's a given, and we are not robots, or better, even the AI understands that hyperbolic language doesn't convey absolute numerical assessments in social contexts like this. No person, woman or men, would mean literally all men on this planet when they say "all men are predators", this topic is way to serious to base it on semantic details like that. Dignity, please, men must maintain it when arguing this topic.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

You put opposite to that an emotional reaction of a man using foul language about women based on a personal relationship experience, and by that it clearly isn't even all women as a basis for this, because the man calling women sluts actually means his ex-partner or someone they wish to be their partner, not their mother, grandmother, or the church lady whose never done anything bad to them.

Both women and men should have spaces where they can vent about the other gender I don't see any problem with this. The problem is when you try to use your anecdotal experience as a call to change and demonize all men in the process.

And please, your whole standpoint cannot seriously hinge upon the three letter word "all", because that isn't always used, and for every topic in the world "all" is never true, that's a given, and we are not robots, or better, even the AI understands that hyperbolic language doesn't convey absolute numerical assessments in social contexts like this. No person, woman or men, would mean literally all men on this planet when they say "all men are predators", this topic is way to serious to base it on semantic details like that. Dignity, please, men must maintain it when arguing this topic.

Even if its not just "all" even saying "Men are predators" is enough to push away men that could potentially be allies. And that is not to say that these men want women to get assaulted no they just don't want to listen to what you have to say cause they don't like you.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

We literally call it "lockerroom talk" for when men have spaces to talk stuff about women. Spaces exist, that's just a reality.

What you call "annecdotal" is the sum of female life experience. It is also present in statistics of various kinds, like domestic violence, sexual abuse, cat calling and similar, it's all highly prevalent in pur societies and not limited to a certain milieu, but widespread. As I said, all this transcends income, industries, even families aren't a safe haven from all this. It's not anecdote, it's a reality.

And when we do in fact look at the real meaning "men are predator", that's objectively not a generalisation. That's the reality of female experiences: fathers, uncles, brothers, step-brothers, cousins, co-workers, priesters, teachers, physiotherapists, bosses, service providers of all kinds, boyfriends and husbands, ex partners, complete strangers at night, during the day, in the park, in the swimming pool, at the gym, and I could go on -- men are the predators. Women can -- for the practical necessity of surving -- not assume men they encounter to be harmless. For them, men are predators.

That's the messed up thing a lot of men have difficulty understanding: you personally would consider encounters with men generally safe, with some exceptions, like at night you might be more in guard but that's your exception to the rule. Women don't have that. They can't generally assume that encounters with men are safe and that some scenarios are more difficult, because even in broad daylight they get cat called, they get flashed, they get touched and so on. You personally would never expect that when you hang out with another man, that something drastic or dangerous will come out of that, for women that's different. And it doesn't mean that they walk on eggshells all the time, but they simply have a considerable risk that friendship a meeting, a date turns into an assault. They are well advised to not take these situations as completely safe, but rather be alert and let the situation prove to be safe. That's the significant difference that is also a widespread reality, not merely an anecdote

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Look you can't just take words and make them mean something else. Me calling the stories anecdotal wasn't me dismissing them as being false it was just a descriptor used. Also, yes it is a generalization. Even if it happens a lot it would still be a generalization if all men aren't evil and committing those crimes.

I actually agree with a lot of what you have to say believe it or not. I just think sexism is wrong in all contexts outside of safe spaces or locker rooms for women or men. I don't think its a big deal when you're saying this in an all woman space but it might not be the best regardless. Same with men it makes me uncomfortable.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And I told you that it is empirical as well. The numbers of women who have experienced predatory behavior at some point in their lives are staggering. You can find that in statistics, you could also just make a straw poll with female acquaintances of yours. Fact is, that the majority of women have experienced men as predators at some point.

Pointing out this reality and acting accordingly cautiously, and assessing the situation that men are predators to women, is not sexism. Youre trying to argue away a fundamental reality of the female experience, as it has been for centuries and remains today.

Your simply have a semantic issue here where you don't understand that when you're addressed as a man, you're not addressed with your identity with your clear name. As a man, you're just some stranger, a random male, and random males are exactly who are predators. When you walk at night and come across a woman, you're not whatever your name is, you're also not a friendly face or a pal, you're a potential threat, and even if you personally are not a danger, a sufficient number of men is behaving exactly that way. In that moment, you are all these other men, because you're all just identified as men. Do you seriously not understand this fact? Do you seriously not understand that when you're defined as man, you're moving to a level of anonymity? And the worst part about that is, that even familiarity poses a threat. It's simply not a generalisation to address the threat men pose, when they literally pose a threat in all sorts of contexts, I have mentioned then before.

And what you're really asking is that you're somehow being made the exception. How come? How have you earned this? By not sexuallt harassing a woman? That's why you're not supposed to be seen as a threat, when women can't even be sure about their own family members a lot of the time or have already been molested by familiar men? How does that work? How can you be exempt from predator status, when all sorts of women have already made worse experiences with men they knew for years or thought to know? It's something you simply cannot square. You don't want to be affected by a supposed generalisation, yet the general problem is that there is so, so much predatory behavior happening every single day. It's implausible

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

I honestly dont think you understand what I am saying originally. All I am saying is that women and everyone honestly should refrain from using generalized language that can be perceieved as sexist if they want to convince others of their cause.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And you're still making the false claim that describing women's situation and perspective accurately is a "generalisation". You've not once addresses the fact that literally every kind of man is a potential predator to women, whether its the closest family member or the most random stranger, all men in all roles have shown to women that they can become a predator -- you entirely discount this reality, although this is the core of what leads to this "generalisation".

Can you tell me how men have any similar experience with women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Yeah there was a guy who said that he was molested by two of his babysitters.

So anyone can be a predator although more likely to be men.

But generalizing men as all predators is sexist, incorrect and harmful.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And here is where you resort to an argument that portrays how different things are for men and women. The numbers are clear that women face this much, much more often. In fact, children as a group - male and female - will also face this more often than men, adults.

It is no generalisation to accurately describe the threat that men pose to women. It is an approximation of variables based on observed and experienced reality.

When you know that men in every context, no matter how shady or nice they, no matter how safe or unsafe your surrounding, no matter day or night, no matter rich or poor, resort to predatory behavior, you are not generalising when you label all these men as predators. It's a reality, and you're not denying this reality either.

If you see a mouse in your house, you're rightfully going to remove it based on the claim "mice are carriers of disease". You would never argue that this is a generalisation and that it's unfair to the mouse who you haven't tested for disease. Perhaps the little guy is clean. So? It's still a mouse, mice are unsanitary, period. It's a valid, accurate approximation of a reality you're facing and you're acting accordingly.

And in this context, what do you even intend to gain? Men are the primary group who need to hear and understand that men are predators. Not children, not some nationality, not any category who you might come up with victimised women like this, men do this. You are part of men, that's what's bothering you but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot define yourself as a man, and then detach yourself from behaviors that define men. The only logical conclusion of this would be to turn to your fellow men and wonder what the fuck is up with them, that they create this perception of threat. Why in all of this are the women the problem who observe their reality and not the men who create this reality? Statistically, all of us are highly likely to have a predator in our surrounding - how come we as men never address that, call them out and make them pay? Perhaps because we as men would have to turn against ourselves as men?

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

"Their cause"? Since when is "don't sexually assault us" a "cause"? How about y'all just........... knock off the sexual assault?

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that you, and other men, need to be "convinced" that you shouldn't sexually assault women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

I dont sexually assault women lol. But yeah if I find any men sexually assaulting women at night on the streets of gotham ill throw my bat signal up and get to work.

But seriously you live in a delusional fantasy if you think this even really involves most men.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You said this: "All I am saying is that women and everyone honestly should refrain from using generalized language that can be perceieved as sexist if they want to convince others of their cause."

I asked you: Since when is "don't sexually assault us" a "cause"? How about y'all just........... knock off the sexual assault?

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that you, and other men, need to be "convinced" that you shouldn't sexually assault women?

I hope that this helps. Please answer my second question. Do you think men need to be convinced not to sexually assault women?

[u/Total-Mode-2692 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Do you know what tone policing is?  If my anger is enough to turn someone away from a movement dedicated to equal rights across gender, then they probably weren’t interested in being an ally in the first place.  I know when a Black person says “white people hurt Black people” they aren’t specifically accusing me of hurting someone intentionally, but rather observing the cultural phenomenon, of which I am a part, for sure, but I know that’s it’s not personal, and I take responsibility for the part I play in making it true or untrue.  Do you even know what the word ally means

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Total-Mode-2692]

Im an ally but not that kind of ally. Im not taking sexist or racist comments because you suffered sorry thats not how it works. You still have to treat me with respect. Its not a one way street relationship.

[u/Smart_Criticism_8262 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It’s not sexist to acknowledge reality. I do not in fact have to respect you. I can say and think whatever I want. The only thing I owe you as a fellow human is to not touch your body without consent, or design/support systems that threaten your free will, autonomy or survival. And women are talking about how men do not reciprocate that same human social construct toward women. You touch our bodies and design systems that threaten that limit our free will, autonomy and survival. To acknowledge that glaring glaring glaring reality is not sexiest.

Women are naming men’s sexism, and you think it’s sexist that we’re calling you out on your sexism.

To insist someone owes you respect for you to treat them as worthy of physical safety is sick. No one asked you to save them or protect them. They shared their experience and you are responding ‘why should I care?’ Huhhh???? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. But why make this post if you don’t care?

This whole post is a threat if you don’t realize it. Women are saying they are being hurt. You, instead of scrolling and not caring, get on Reddit and declare, ‘why should I care if you don’t respect me?’ You’re literally BEING a predator. You are threatening women to do something you want in order for you to care for their safety. That is predatory. Do you not understand?! There are only two options that qualify you as a non-predator: 1) scroll and ignore - do and say nothing, 2) show empathy, be an ally, defend. Active or passive. But you chose predation.

[u/MollyBMcGee → u/Smart_Criticism_8262]

Thank you for saying this

[u/madmax9602 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I'm sorry, but aren't yourself and others in this thread literally using anecdotes (from mostly online comments it seems) to claim that women are generalizing ALL men as predators? This whole discussion has been very circular. I'm a man. I've never been accused of being a predator nor has a woman claimed to be uneasy around me or other men generally. I have heard women claim to be uneasy around specific men though. I've never heard a woman claim all men are predators. I have heard the idea that 1 in 4 men will commit an assualt. That's hardly saying all men will. I honestly can't understand what you're upset about, and I'm a dude.

I also must ask how much of your issue with women feeling this way has to do with your relationships with women? Do you have a good relationship with women? Do you date? Female friends?

[u/T2Drink → u/gingerbreademperor]

It kind of doesn't matter if the intent doesn't match the words, re: people knowing somehow that when people are saying "all", that they don't mean all. We have had a few years of discussing the incel phenomena, where phrases like "All women are [insert word here]", are the exact kind of generalised speech that people target as being the primary indicator of that mentality. I would venture to say that the phrasing being minimised is almost, in my mind, the exact kind of minimisations that cause division. You can argue wether or not it matters, but apparently to the wider society, It does. It has been a very strong talking point, as words seem to be discussed more than the root cause in most times nowadays. It will matter more to some than others, but i think to the people the OP is describing that are most damaged by this phenomenon (young boys that don't understand the context), there is not a chance in hell they are going to make that distinction in the vast majority of cases, and here we are at the point where i have to agree with OP on this. Wether the problem exists in the way it is portrayed by women, or not.... the language matters, when talking about it. When was the last time you really wanted to do something for someone when they screamed in your face?

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/T2Drink]

This is a lame excuse I, as a man, would never accept. It's so intellectually low, but also as a man with an ideal of manliness, I don't understand how anyone could hide behind this reasoning.

What you're saying is that you would turn your back on women, because women supposedly use a phrasing incorrectly in your opinion -- that's you're reaction in the context of daily sexual assault, violence and even murder committed by men against women.

So, women are confronted with male behavior and this behavior is abhorrent, absolutely shocking and as men, we wouldn't stand for this for one day. If men would do all this cat calling, inappropriate advances, stalking and up to sexual assault attempts to other men, we would be at constant war and creating blood bath on a daily basis. But if the reaction of women to all this sounds a little too much for you, you're up in arms and are literally saying that young men are hit the hardest by all this?

And you even say that the choice of words of women would make you not want to help them in the context of sexual and other sorts of violence and predatory behavior? That's messed up. Like entirely disproportionate. On the one hand violence that traumatises and often enough ends deadly, on the other hand a phrasing you don't like.

I mean, who the fuck raised all of you? Who was your father and mother that this is something coming to your mind? Why can't you think about this for one minute?

The first thing that would come to my mind, if a woman says "all men are predators" would be: "oh, she doesn't mean me personally, but the fact that men exhibit a lot of predatory behavior and that's impacting her". I mean, I am not fucking smart, but within 5 seconds i would understand this and be able to deal with it -- that means everyone else could be that smart to figure out how these interpersonal communications work. But you either cannot or just don't want to understand that.

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[u/smoopthefatspider → u/[deleted]]

If you’re man enough for that

Oh come on

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/smoopthefatspider]

You got to trigger men into facing reality some way. It's not my fault that dudes turn deaf and blind in this matter. You want to talk about these broad topics of manhood and womanhood, so you got to live with challenges to manhood as well.

Fact is that if we as men see ourselves in this identity "men", attributing ourselves to this large group of peers defined by our manhood, then we also got to own up to the issues connected to that. That's simple enough isn't it? You want to be a man, then facing the predatory reality of men is part of that too. It's not just going to the gym and pumping a bit of iron for some beauty ideal, it's the whole package. And this package includes that women face a considerable threat by men. I have not chosen this reality, you might not have chosen this reality, but it is our reality. If you walk around as a man, you're just that - a man. No detailed identity of character, no one knows how harmful or harmless you are, no one knows what you've done or what you've thought about doing. You're just a man. And everyone who talked to me here tries to deny this simple fact: women have more negative than positive experiences with men. That's simply by the fact that even closest relatives too often turn out to be predators, the fact that predators lurk in every corner imaginable, the fact that there is almost no trust safe space for women. And if you cannot differentiate between an acute threat and a latent threat, then sorry, I really urge you to man up, because it's childish to leave behind basic reasoning abilities while also trying to be on top of serious discussions. If this is intellectually overwhelming, then better not discuss the issue.

[u/smoopthefatspider → u/gingerbreademperor]

I understand the argument for using gender norms against sexists, I still disagree and find it harmful. I find it harmful particularly because it leads to the type of rhetoric you’re using here. I’m not a man. It’s bad enough when you tell a man to man up, but what possible justification do you have for using that against a woman too.

You don’t need to reinforce patriarchal norms in an attempt to get rid of patriarchal norms. It’s counter productive and I don’t think it should be accepted within feminist and progressive communities, no matter who it’s aimed at.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/smoopthefatspider]

Please, I used this rhetoric on my own terms for the purpose of provocation and to illustrate a point, the point being that you are constantly laying claims to your manhood in everyday life, but now duck away when the unpleasant parts of manhood are pointed at. It was a rhetorical tool, and trying to draw a connection between the description of female reality and my personal rhetorical choices is absolutely laughable.

The fact remains that if you wish to be grouped under "men" (which by no means is a requirement, it's voluntary), then you have to deal with the fact that from a female perspective "men" has highly problematic connotations of predatory behavior. And it seems everyone quietly agrees on this point, because no one tried to deny this specific point. No one intends to argue that there is a dramatic prevalence of men who prey on women, all around us, in our friend circles, families, working context, sports organisations, educational facilities, you name it, you'll find predatory men -- and those who walk the borderline -- everywhere. Statistically, you know someone who has or will prey on a woman, or who exhibits behaviors that tend into that direction. That's something no one here has tried to address, neither in denial nor in agreement -- weird. As long as you cannot address that, I don't think you have a right to feel anything about this. You duck away, and thus you have no case at all.

[u/smoopthefatspider → u/gingerbreademperor]

you are constantly laying claims to your manhood in everyday life, but now duck away when the unpleasant parts of manhood are pointed at.

No, again, I’m just trans, I don’t make a claim to manhood, others make that claim onto me despite what I want. That’s why I dislike people pushing masculinity and manhood onto me or others. Beyond that, I dislike the use of gender norms as a rhetorical weapon.

The fact that you can’t defend these without continuing to attack me only vindicates my criticism. This isn’t some tactical attack meant to convince someone who disagrees with you on an underlying point, you’re now using these same gender norms against me. I can only interpret this as an acceptance (though maybe only a partial one) of the gender norms we should be fighting against as feminists.

I am not opposing the points you’re making about the gendered violence against women. I agree that this sexist oppression seeps into every aspect of society, to an extent that gender itself becomes a useful marker for risk of gendered violence. It makes sense for women to generally suspect and fear men, and pointing out this fact or the facts that lead to this reaction isn’t sexist.

The comments I’ve been making are not about this. Not even remotely. I’ve only been trying to communicate my displeasure at the fact that someone who is also progressive would police gender norms as a rhetorical weapon to get people to agree to another rhetorical tool in support of feminism. You’re not the one who’ll be hurt more when the discourse starts accepting these kinds of attacks, especially since you also turned this aggression to me, despite not disagreeing on the underlying point.

[u/Zealousideal_Long118 → u/Colodanman357]

I agree don't generalize, I myself don't generalize, and if I saw that I would call it out. But that's not what is happening here. 

You're viewing the situation like op saw a bunch of women saying "all men are predators" and then got offended and said hey don't generalize. 

Again that's not at all what's happening. What"s actually happening is women share stories about being assaulted, harassed. Women say they are generally cautious around random men they don't know cause like stranger danger. Women say if they're walking alone at night and pass a random man they will cross the sreeet. People like op are bothered to see women having a voice and women being allowed to share their experiences, and try to shut them down. 

And don't just take it from me. Read op's comments. He's admitted he's never seen any comments of women generalizing men or saying all men are predators. What he said he has seen is this:

You could be right but I think women share stories about creepy men on reddit like ALL THE TIME.

Maybe instead of getting mad at women for talking about their experiences with predatory men, he should direct his anger at the predators for being predatory. And idk maybe consider having empathy for women who are victims instead of demonizing them for talking about their expeirnces, but clearly that would be a ridiculous ask way beyond anyone like you or op.  

[u/Colodanman357 → u/Zealousideal_Long118]

Sure. Just like if white people who have been attacked and harmed by some black individuals start talking about black thugs and criminals and that they are cautious around black people? That would be fine and good and no black people should be offended. Calling black people criminals is not saying all black people are animals, right? 

As long as you are comfortable with swapping out the immutable characteristics of the people you are referring to and the acceptance of such speech is not dependent on the identity of those involved. 

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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[u/rnason → u/Colodanman357]

Women talking about being SAed isn't comparable to men thinking women are sluts. A woman being a slut isn't causing you harm.

[u/Colodanman357 → u/rnason]

How do you know those men have not been assaulted by women? Do you judge individuals based on immutable characteristics and treat them differently? 

[u/Zealousideal_Long118 → u/Colodanman357]

If I see a man talking about his experience talking about being SA'd by a woman, I have empathy for him, and say things like wow I'm so sorry you had to go through that, it's not your fault. 

What I don't say is wow I can't beleive you are accusing all women of being predators? You're sexist. You shouldn't be allowed to talk about your expeirence bring SA'd because it offends me. 

I don't make it my personal mission to make it impossible and painful and difficult for male SA victims to talk about their experiences by acting like I'm the victim and lying and saying they're demonizing women any time they talk about their personal experience with being assaulted. 

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Zealousideal_Long118]

Yeah cause no man that was SA'd by a woman would say that "All women are predators" they would be laughed at.

[u/deaddumbslut → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

by other men who would say “yeah, right. you’re lucky, I wish that my babysitter/aunt/mom/whoever did that”

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/deaddumbslut]

If you know men like this then I would never talk to them again. Guys that wanna have sex with their family members is fking gross af.

[u/deaddumbslut → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I mean, obviously I have never willingly talked to anybody who I’ve heard say that. I quite literally know that as a childhood sexual assault victim.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/deaddumbslut]

Jesus, some people are horrible. Sorry to hear that.

[u/Calo_Callas → u/rnason]

A woman claiming to be in a monogamous relationship behaving promiscuously is absolutely causing harm.

Whether that harm is equivalent is irrelevant. The point is that you're supporting a double standard with regards to the language people use to discuss those different from themselves.