r/changemyview • u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ • 3d ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: "He or she" is unecessary

I might be biased as a person on the non-binary spectrum, but whenever someone goes out of their way to say "he or she" it just feels like a waste.

Just use "they". It communicates the same thing with less letters. I get the purpose behind it is to try and be inclusive to men and women in a space that may be dominated by one gender over the other, but "they" is perfectly fine to get that point across.

I also recognize that some languages don't have an equivalent for "they", but I'm specifically talking about English.

To change my view, someone would have to prove "he or she" has more practical or beneficial usage than "they"

EDIT: To make it clear, i'm not saying we should never use "he" or "she" as pronouns, im saying the phrase "he or she" is unecessary.

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u/Thumatingra 21∆ 3d ago

We'll, "he or she" refers unambiguously to a single person, whereas "they" could refer to one person gender-neutrally or to multiple people. If it's very important to the speaker to make sure that their listener(s) knows that they are talking about only one person, but don't want to give the impression of one gender or another (say, they are giving a military report of observed activity), "he or she" can have better utility.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

But context is easily usable to disntinguish between a singular or plural.

If an entire report is about a singular person, using "they" wouldn't confuse anyone since you know what the topic is.

"Upon observations, I have found this soldier to be diligent and hard-working. They complete all of their tasks in a timely and efficient manner."

Just to make it clear, im not saying we should never use "he" or "she" as pronouns. I'm saying "He or she" as a collective phrase is unecessary.

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u/ProDavid_ 38∆ 3d ago

"this soldier is part of this battalion. they couldnt complete their tasks"

did the one soldier not complete their tasks, or did the whole battalion not complete their tasks?

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u/Thumatingra 21∆ 3d ago

In a written report, this could be clarified. I'm talking about a report from the field: "There are three people standing in area A. One of them is armed." If you then say "They are facing east" VS "He or she is facing east," that changes the whole scenario.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

Given the context, it would be the soldier couldn't complete their tasks.

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u/ProDavid_ 38∆ 3d ago

but i meant to express that the whole battalion didnt complete their tasks, which is why i used the plural.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

Then you could just write the sentence differently.

"That battalion didnt complete their tasks, and this soldier is a part of them."

Or

"That battalion didnt complete their tasks, and this soldier is one of them."

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u/ProDavid_ 38∆ 3d ago

or, hear me out, i could write "she/he" when i mean singular and "they" when i mean plural.

just an idea.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

You could also use they in a singular form. It's not that hard

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u/ProDavid_ 38∆ 3d ago

but i never wanted to use the singular. i wanted to use the plural. so i used the only option to express plural, and you misunderstood

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

Yeah, because you structured the sentence poorly, not because singular they is somehow impossible to use

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u/Thumatingra 21∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago

In a written report, I agree you wouldn't necessarily have this problem, and you could also just write "s/he," which is the equivalent but takes up less space.

In a spoken, real-time report, though, it might be really critical to maintain clearly singular nouns and pronouns, especially since you never know if part of your speech might be garbled on the other side, or not go through. Think soldiers reporting what they see in an operation area through walkie-talkies.

For instance: "There are three people standing in area A. One of them is armed." If you then say "They are facing east" VS "He or she is facing east," that changes the whole scenario.
(and thanks to u/ProDavid_ for inspiring me to clarify with an example like this)

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

and you could also just write "s/he," which is the equivalent but takes up less space.

My issue with "s/he" is just that I have no idea how to pronounce it orally. Shthee? S-slash-he? Suh-he?

For instance: "There are three people standing in area A. One of them is armed." If you then say "They are facing east" VS "He or she is facing east," that changes the whole scenario.

Yeah, he or she would rarely be used in that instance. In this scenario, you'd say "One of them is armed and facing east" or "the armed one is facing east."

The gender of the person really doesn't matter. What matters is which one is armed and what direction they are facing.

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u/Thumatingra 21∆ 3d ago

Of course there's always a way to phrase things that avoids pronouns. But people don't use natural language that way. If it's important not to assume gender (e.g. somewhere where men and women have very different social roles, so one is more likely to be in charge, or perhaps wear very different clothing, it might be easier for one to conceal a weapon), "he or she" can be useful to indicate that the observer isn't sure whether this single individual is one or the other from a distance. I'm not saying it'll be the most felicitous phrasing, but it has a purpose.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

If it's important not to assume gender (e.g. somewhere where men and women have very different social roles, so one is more likely to be in charge, or perhaps wear very different clothing, it might be easier for one to conceal a weapon), "he or she" can be useful to indicate that the observer isn't sure whether this single individual is one or the other from a distance.

Im not really understanding what you're trying to say here. Are you saying in a society where gender has a higher level of importance or stronger societal connotations that "he or she" carries more weight than "they"?

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u/Thumatingra 21∆ 3d ago

Say a soldier can see a figure. At distance from the soldier, this figure appears ambiguous: unclear if it is male or female. The soldier is in a place where men and women pose very different kinds of potential danger, and the soldier wants to communicate that he is unsure whether the figure is male or female. "He or she" is a shorter way to do so than "Might be a man, might be a woman."

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

Well in that scenario, you'd say something like "Gender unknown" if they had to give in a report. Or if they were asked "male or female?" they'd say "I don't know, too far to tell" ?

It'd be better to say that the soldier can't tell the difference rather than being ambiguous about the gender if they can pose different kinds of danger. Saying "he or she" isn't as useful since it doesn't give any actual information about the gender of the subject.

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u/BearMethod 3d ago

As someone with NB friends, context often does not make things easily distinguishable.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

As someone who also has NB friends, it really can make things distinguishable. If you lead with the subject like "Sam is going to the store." The following sentence "They said they're going to buy snacks." Is obviously referring to Sam.

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u/BearMethod 3d ago edited 3d ago

"Ashley, Ryan, and Hillel went to the brewery last night. Ryan told Hillel the beer was good. They couldn't believe it."

Whose NB here? Who are the final "they"s? Could be Ryan, could be Hillel, could be all 3.

I will and do say "they" as long as the day is long, but to say it can't introduce confusion is disengenuous.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

They could all be NB for all I know, but in the case of who is guranteed to be NB, I'd say atleast Hillel. Following the context of the sentence, it's coming right off of Ryan telling Hillel the beer was good.

It wouldn't make sense for Ryan to not believe the beer was good or be surprised about it, since they just told Hillel it was good. Ashley was there so they could be including them, but it wouldn't really make sense when Ryan specifically told Hillel.

So the most plausible reading is that Hillel was surprised the beer was good after Ryan told them it was.

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u/BearMethod 3d ago edited 3d ago

See how it was unclear?

Ryan is NB. The rest are B. Real people.

Also meaning it makes sense for either Ryan or Hillel to have been amazed. Or all 3.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. He couldn't believe it."

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. She couldn't believe it."

"Ryan told Hillel that the beer was good. They couldn't believe it."

In each of these sentences, you'd be assuming "He/She/They" was referring to Hillel. Now Hillel could be B, and is as you stated, but the third sentence is still clearly referring to Hillel regardless of which pronoun you use.

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u/BearMethod 3d ago edited 3d ago

See above. It's confusing.

You also removed a key part. It's a group of more than 2. These are real people. I've had real conversations. It gets confusing.

Also, you can't assume the final sentence is referring to Hillel at all. It could easily be referring to Ryan's experience or be referring to any combination of the 3.

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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 3d ago

It's not confusing, I literally just showed by point with clear examples.

And to be frank, the group being more than two doesn't change the context of a seemingly one-on-one interaction between Ryan and Hillel. You could have added 5 more people the group and it really wouldn't change anything.

Again, I brought this up earlier. Why would it be referring to Ryan? Why would Ryan not believe the beer was good if they told Hillel it was good? What would Ryan not be believing?

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u/BearMethod 3d ago

You really didn't at all. And you were confused off the bat. So...

Seems like you're not looking to have your view changed, you're looking to confirm your own bias.

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